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Attention On Islamic Indian Genocide

Geogeer
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1/8/2016 9:37:34 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/8/2016 9:35:04 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
What you talkin bout willis?

Probably the worst holocaust in the history of the world.
kevin24018
Posts: 1,804
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1/8/2016 9:43:41 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/8/2016 9:37:34 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/8/2016 9:35:04 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
What you talkin bout willis?

Probably the worst holocaust in the history of the world.

wow never heard of, how strange is that, what I quickly read we pretty horrifying actually. I guess since most countries didn't and don't have a financial interest it was no big deal thus not commonly talked and taught about I guess. I wonder what religious leaders,present or past if any, have condemned it.
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,673
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1/8/2016 10:33:42 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
What's next?

Attention on the Spanish Indian Genocide

Attention on the British Indian Genocide

Attention on the other British Indian Genocide

Attention on the Indian Indian Genocide (That probably happened somehow)

Genocide is an absolutly disgusting crime no matter who did it, period.
"Change your sig."
~YYW
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,599
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1/9/2016 1:18:53 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Most Muslims on this site deny the bloody history of their religion. Their denial is used to paint a false picture that only a fool would believe. Some even deny that they attacked and conquered other lands. They believe they were welcomed with open arms in every instance. At least Christians don't deny the violence of their religion in the past. Even today Muslims blame everyone else for the violence that comes from their religion. I believe that this stems from the excuses they make for the only violent prophet of any major religion, the religion of Islam and their prophet Mohamed.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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1/9/2016 6:01:37 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/8/2016 10:33:42 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
What's next?

Attention on the Spanish Indian Genocide

Attention on the British Indian Genocide

Attention on the other British Indian Genocide

Attention on the Indian Indian Genocide (That probably happened somehow)

Genocide is an absolutly disgusting crime no matter who did it, period.

Or Turkish Armenia Genocide, or German Jewish Genocide, or Ottoman Greek, Ottoman Hamidian, or Chinese Tibetan

Jesus Christ, its disgusting, depressing, and sad AF that to list of genocides throughout human history you'd be looking at something pages and pages long >_>
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,673
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1/9/2016 6:40:35 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/9/2016 6:01:37 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 1/8/2016 10:33:42 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
What's next?

Attention on the Spanish Indian Genocide

Attention on the British Indian Genocide

Attention on the other British Indian Genocide

Attention on the Indian Indian Genocide (That probably happened somehow)

Genocide is an absolutly disgusting crime no matter who did it, period.

Or Turkish Armenia Genocide, or German Jewish Genocide, or Ottoman Greek, Ottoman Hamidian, or Chinese Tibetan

Jesus Christ, its disgusting, depressing, and sad AF that to list of genocides throughout human history you'd be looking at something pages and pages long >_>

Exactly. Blame the people, not the religion since I'm yet to find any religion that openly preaches genocide.
"Change your sig."
~YYW
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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1/9/2016 6:45:37 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/9/2016 6:40:35 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 1/9/2016 6:01:37 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 1/8/2016 10:33:42 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
What's next?

Attention on the Spanish Indian Genocide

Attention on the British Indian Genocide

Attention on the other British Indian Genocide

Attention on the Indian Indian Genocide (That probably happened somehow)

Genocide is an absolutly disgusting crime no matter who did it, period.

Or Turkish Armenia Genocide, or German Jewish Genocide, or Ottoman Greek, Ottoman Hamidian, or Chinese Tibetan

Jesus Christ, its disgusting, depressing, and sad AF that to list of genocides throughout human history you'd be looking at something pages and pages long >_>

Exactly. Blame the people, not the religion since I'm yet to find any religion that openly preaches genocide.

Most genocides have been on ethnic/cultural grounds as a means to get land(resources and commodities), not religious anyways. $$ the root of evil
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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1/9/2016 6:46:45 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
If religion has been brought up as the reason its usually to distract from the true motivation of greed and/or envy
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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1/9/2016 6:51:35 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
and the main reason why people try to distract from that, is because if they don't, they would have to acknowledge that everyone is capable of monstrous acts. Doesn't mean they will, but that they're capable of it.

Then they'd have to actually acknowledge the humanity in doing so, when, its more pleasant to separate people who do such things as monster, or inhuman.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Magellan
Posts: 31
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1/9/2016 7:04:49 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/8/2016 9:37:34 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/8/2016 9:35:04 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
What you talkin bout willis?

Probably the worst holocaust in the history of the world.

Lol not even close... not even in the same ballpark!
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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1/9/2016 8:08:06 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/9/2016 7:04:49 PM, Magellan wrote:
At 1/8/2016 9:37:34 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/8/2016 9:35:04 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
What you talkin bout willis?

Probably the worst holocaust in the history of the world.

Lol not even close... not even in the same ballpark!

Genocide is Genocide man, so your point is pointless, as well as his comment. Point is, every group in history has done some fucked up sh!t in their past, trying to act like one group is better than the other is exactly the kind of behavior that eventually leads to violent and genocidal actions.

So good job at feeding into that.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Magellan
Posts: 31
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1/9/2016 9:01:47 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/9/2016 8:08:06 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 1/9/2016 7:04:49 PM, Magellan wrote:
At 1/8/2016 9:37:34 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/8/2016 9:35:04 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
What you talkin bout willis?

Probably the worst holocaust in the history of the world.

Lol not even close... not even in the same ballpark!

Genocide is Genocide man, so your point is pointless, as well as his comment. Point is, every group in history has done some fucked up sh!t in their past, trying to act like one group is better than the other is exactly the kind of behavior that eventually leads to violent and genocidal actions.

So good job at feeding into that.

I never said anything about genocide, I was responding to his comment that it's the worst genocide "in the history of the world" in which I disagree.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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1/9/2016 10:52:56 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/9/2016 9:01:47 PM, Magellan wrote:
At 1/9/2016 8:08:06 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 1/9/2016 7:04:49 PM, Magellan wrote:
At 1/8/2016 9:37:34 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/8/2016 9:35:04 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
What you talkin bout willis?

Probably the worst holocaust in the history of the world.

Lol not even close... not even in the same ballpark!

Genocide is Genocide man, so your point is pointless, as well as his comment. Point is, every group in history has done some fucked up sh!t in their past, trying to act like one group is better than the other is exactly the kind of behavior that eventually leads to violent and genocidal actions.

So good job at feeding into that.

I never said anything about genocide, I was responding to his comment that it's the worst genocide "in the history of the world" in which I disagree.

Then you said something about Genocide and you made a comparative statement in response to his comparative statement.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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1/9/2016 11:44:54 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/9/2016 7:04:49 PM, Magellan wrote:
At 1/8/2016 9:37:34 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/8/2016 9:35:04 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
What you talkin bout willis?

Probably the worst holocaust in the history of the world.

Lol not even close... not even in the same ballpark!

Really can you show me one where more people died? I'll readily admit where I'm wrong.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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1/9/2016 11:46:08 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/9/2016 6:53:00 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Would it have killed you to post a link?

I was just doing the same as Yassine...
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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1/9/2016 11:53:21 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/9/2016 11:46:08 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/9/2016 6:53:00 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Would it have killed you to post a link?

I was just doing the same as Yassine...

I don't get the reference.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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1/10/2016 12:00:40 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/9/2016 11:53:21 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 1/9/2016 11:46:08 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/9/2016 6:53:00 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Would it have killed you to post a link?

I was just doing the same as Yassine...

I don't get the reference.

The attention on American Indian Genocide thread. They're both stupid and missing the point in my opinion.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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1/10/2016 1:20:08 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/8/2016 9:31:10 PM, Geogeer wrote:
=> Thoughts?

Calling the Islamic genocide makes about as much sense as calling the conquest of Mexico the Catholic genocide. I read some of the 'articles' on this, and then read some non-biased historical articles on the historical periods and polities which it cites. Surprise, surprise, there was no organized slaughter of Hindus. There were countless small sultanates which fought both among themselves and with their Hindu neighbors due to a high degree of regionalization. This ended with the Mughal empire, which united and ruled large swathes of India through new administrative practices, forming alliances with its neighbors, and delicately balancing the interests of many minority groups within India. When the rulers abandoned this pluralized model in favor of the oppression of religious minorities, the empire destabilized into open rebellion and fell apart under the disastrous reign of Aurangzeb. Wow, history is actually complex when you look at it. Who would have known.

One of the articles authoritatively claimed that the Hindu Kush got it's name because a large number of Hindus were killed there by Muslims. I mean, where do people come up with this stuff, and who believes it?
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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1/10/2016 2:30:35 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/9/2016 6:53:00 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Would it have killed you to post a link?

- Here you go:
http://www.theguardian.com...
Current Debates:

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Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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1/10/2016 3:45:34 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 12:00:40 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 1/9/2016 11:53:21 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 1/9/2016 11:46:08 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/9/2016 6:53:00 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Would it have killed you to post a link?

I was just doing the same as Yassine...

I don't get the reference.

The attention on American Indian Genocide thread. They're both stupid and missing the point in my opinion.

That was the point...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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1/10/2016 3:58:47 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 1:20:08 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

Calling the Islamic genocide makes about as much sense as calling the conquest of Mexico the Catholic genocide. I read some of the 'articles' on this, and then read some non-biased historical articles on the historical periods and polities which it cites. Surprise, surprise, there was no organized slaughter of Hindus. There were countless small sultanates which fought both among themselves and with their Hindu neighbors due to a high degree of regionalization. This ended with the Mughal empire, which united and ruled large swathes of India through new administrative practices, forming alliances with its neighbors, and delicately balancing the interests of many minority groups within India.

- True. Before the Mughals, there were endless small states & dynasties in the region, on both sides. Looked like the mamalik in Spain, or the sultanates in Southeast Asia, only in bigger scale.

When the rulers abandoned this pluralized model in favor of the oppression of religious minorities, the empire destabilized into open rebellion and fell apart under the disastrous reign of Aurangzeb.

- Aurangzeb did better than his predecessors, he just bit more than he can chew. India prospered in his reign, both economically & scholarly. His time could be said to be the second golden age of the indian Hanafi school. But, he was indeed harsh against Hindus, Portuguese & Shi'a. What I like most about him is the care he gave his daughters, especially Zeb an-Nisaa' & Zinat an-Nisaa'. Terrific great persons. It is said that Tafsir of Zib an-Nisaa' is the only exegesis of the Qur'an written by a woman. Usually you see rulers favouring their sons over their daughters, not many are known to do the opposite.

- He reminds me of emperor Zheng, first emperor of China, in his wars of unification, which failed just a little while after his death. I actually admire both guys, they had big ambitions, but little support.

Wow, history is actually complex when you look at it. Who would have known.

- LOL! Unbelievably so. For instance, you hear mentioning that Aurang imposed the Jizyah tax on his non-Muslim subjects whereas his predecessors didn't. While this is true, he also cancelled the other taxes previously imposed on them.

One of the articles authoritatively claimed that the Hindu Kush got it's name because a large number of Hindus were killed there by Muslims. I mean, where do people come up with this stuff, and who believes it?

- I try not to read these sources from the outset. I have a very bad history with these.
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Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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1/10/2016 4:22:21 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 3:45:34 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/10/2016 12:00:40 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 1/9/2016 11:53:21 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 1/9/2016 11:46:08 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/9/2016 6:53:00 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Would it have killed you to post a link?

I was just doing the same as Yassine...

I don't get the reference.

The attention on American Indian Genocide thread. They're both stupid and missing the point in my opinion.

That was the point...

Well, carry on then.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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1/10/2016 7:26:57 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 3:58:47 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/10/2016 1:20:08 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

- True. Before the Mughals, there were endless small states & dynasties in the region, on both sides. Looked like the mamalik in Spain, or the sultanates in Southeast Asia, only in bigger scale.

When the rulers abandoned this pluralized model in favor of the oppression of religious minorities, the empire destabilized into open rebellion and fell apart under the disastrous reign of Aurangzeb.

- Aurangzeb did better than his predecessors, he just bit more than he can chew. India prospered in his reign, both economically & scholarly. His time could be said to be the second golden age of the indian Hanafi school. But, he was indeed harsh against Hindus, Portuguese & Shi'a. What I like most about him is the care he gave his daughters, especially Zeb an-Nisaa' & Zinat an-Nisaa'. Terrific great persons. It is said that Tafsir of Zib an-Nisaa' is the only exegesis of the Qur'an written by a woman. Usually you see rulers favouring their sons over their daughters, not many are known to do the opposite.

Unfortunately, 'decent people' in the general sense tend to be subpar rulers. To rule means to be able to compromise your personal beliefs and morals for the good of the realm. From what I've read of Aurangzeb, he seemed to have a grand vision that failed to take into account the effort that would need to go in to maintaining peace and order in his new conquests, especially the easing of religious and ethnic tensions. As Machiavelli put it, you need to expect that people will behave as horrible as possible when making laws, because otherwise they won't hold up once human behavior reaches that nadir. Morally righteous people tend to have a hard time doing that, and expect too much virtue of their subjects.

- He reminds me of emperor Zheng, first emperor of China, in his wars of unification, which failed just a little while after his death. I actually admire both guys, they had big ambitions, but little support.

Wow, history is actually complex when you look at it. Who would have known.

- LOL! Unbelievably so. For instance, you hear mentioning that Aurang imposed the Jizyah tax on his non-Muslim subjects whereas his predecessors didn't. While this is true, he also cancelled the other taxes previously imposed on them.

Yeah, from what I've read he overhauled a lot of the old administrative structure, which ended up causing a lot of problems.

One of the articles authoritatively claimed that the Hindu Kush got it's name because a large number of Hindus were killed there by Muslims. I mean, where do people come up with this stuff, and who believes it?

- I try not to read these sources from the outset. I have a very bad history with these.

It's depressing, to realize how much credence people give to random things on the internet, so long as they support their own biases.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Magellan
Posts: 31
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1/10/2016 7:59:56 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/9/2016 11:44:54 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/9/2016 7:04:49 PM, Magellan wrote:
At 1/8/2016 9:37:34 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/8/2016 9:35:04 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
What you talkin bout willis?

Probably the worst holocaust in the history of the world.

Lol not even close... not even in the same ballpark!

Really can you show me one where more people died? I'll readily admit where I'm wrong.

Well you've established insanely loose parameters. What are you even measuring? All of the deaths of Native Americans by any European group? Most of those weren't even intentional.

Or are you talking about an actual, intended, systematic killing of a group of people?
Yassine
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1/10/2016 9:05:56 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 7:26:57 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

Unfortunately, 'decent people' in the general sense tend to be subpar rulers. To rule means to be able to compromise your personal beliefs and morals for the good of the realm. From what I've read of Aurangzeb, he seemed to have a grand vision that failed to take into account the effort that would need to go in to maintaining peace and order in his new conquests, especially the easing of religious and ethnic tensions.

- I agree with this. He took everything into his own hands, & forced change into the system & the society without adequate progression in policy. Probably, the biggest flaw of his rule, is that he wasn't able to compromise, as you said. I mean, he was known as the austere ruler, by virtue of the severe lifestyle he imposed on himself & his entourage, which was alien to his predecessors.

As Machiavelli put it, you need to expect that people will behave as horrible as possible when making laws, because otherwise they won't hold up once human behavior reaches that nadir.

- I agree with this completely. People tend to behave erratically with new unfamiliar laws. They feel as though their identity & culture has been contaminated & ruined.

Morally righteous people tend to have a hard time doing that, and expect too much virtue of their subjects.

- The wise ones among them understand the delicate nature of change, priorities & progression.

Yeah, from what I've read he overhauled a lot of the old administrative structure, which ended up causing a lot of problems.

- He did. & he replaced almost his entire courts, institute a unified legal system according to the Hanafi school (similar to what Suleiman The Magnificent did for the Ottomans)... He bit way more than he could chew. If only he had enough support or if his successors shared his vision, the Mughal Empire might've become one of the greatest.

- A more apparent example is that of 'Umar II (Ibn 'Abd al-'Aziz). Although he made the Umayyad empire much more prosperous than his predecessors, his righteous policies weakened greatly the ruling dynasty & the ruling class. Virtually all the wealth they amassed, all the network of influence they build was gone in 2 years. After his death, no ruler was able to uphold his righteousness, & that caused the dynasty to eventually fall. Although 'Umar II was wiser & kinder in dealing with the people (revolts reached an all time minimum in History, only trumped by 'Umar Ibn Khattab), his policies precipitated the fall of the Umayyads.

It's depressing, to realize how much credence people give to random things on the internet, so long as they support their own biases.

- I usually deal with this behaviour by doing the same thing in finding opposite views, equally dubious. I just despise hypocrisy.
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