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Why Politics is Not the Answer

FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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10/22/2010 10:22:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Government exists for the purpose of giving the illusion that we are a civilized people. Government does not actually make us civilized--quite the opposite--we have government because we are not civilized. If government were to suddenly collapse we would descend into even more chaos than we are in. The average person is irresponsible and irrational. So politics is really the mechanism of how to control and get around these irrational people. It does not actually solve the problem. If solving the problem is your objective then politics is not what you should be concerned with. Is the solution how to control irrationality or is the solution how to have less rationality?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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10/23/2010 5:36:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/22/2010 10:22:23 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Government exists for the purpose of giving the illusion that we are a civilized people. Government does not actually make us civilized--quite the opposite--we have government because we are not civilized. If government were to suddenly collapse we would descend into even more chaos than we are in. The average person is irresponsible and irrational. So politics is really the mechanism of how to control and get around these irrational people. It does not actually solve the problem. If solving the problem is your objective then politics is not what you should be concerned with. Is the solution how to control irrationality or is the solution how to have less rationality?

Define "civilized".
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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10/23/2010 10:51:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
"Free association . . . the only true form of society." - Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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10/23/2010 12:18:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/23/2010 5:36:52 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/22/2010 10:22:23 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Government exists for the purpose of giving the illusion that we are a civilized people. Government does not actually make us civilized--quite the opposite--we have government because we are not civilized. If government were to suddenly collapse we would descend into even more chaos than we are in. The average person is irresponsible and irrational. So politics is really the mechanism of how to control and get around these irrational people. It does not actually solve the problem. If solving the problem is your objective then politics is not what you should be concerned with. Is the solution how to control irrationality or is the solution how to have less rationality?

Define "civilized".

Good question. I meant be able able to fully socialize with each other in a rational manner.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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10/23/2010 12:28:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/23/2010 12:18:50 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/23/2010 5:36:52 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/22/2010 10:22:23 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Government exists for the purpose of giving the illusion that we are a civilized people. Government does not actually make us civilized--quite the opposite--we have government because we are not civilized. If government were to suddenly collapse we would descend into even more chaos than we are in. The average person is irresponsible and irrational. So politics is really the mechanism of how to control and get around these irrational people. It does not actually solve the problem. If solving the problem is your objective then politics is not what you should be concerned with. Is the solution how to control irrationality or is the solution how to have less rationality?

Define "civilized".


Good question. I meant be able able to fully socialize with each other in a rational manner.

So people wouldn't do that in an absence of government?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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10/23/2010 1:00:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/23/2010 12:18:50 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/23/2010 5:36:52 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/22/2010 10:22:23 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Government exists for the purpose of giving the illusion that we are a civilized people. Government does not actually make us civilized--quite the opposite--we have government because we are not civilized. If government were to suddenly collapse we would descend into even more chaos than we are in. The average person is irresponsible and irrational. So politics is really the mechanism of how to control and get around these irrational people. It does not actually solve the problem. If solving the problem is your objective then politics is not what you should be concerned with. Is the solution how to control irrationality or is the solution how to have less rationality?

Define "civilized".


Good question. I meant be able able to fully socialize with each other in a rational manner.

Well then, that's a rather sweeping generalization about humanity. :P
Chrysippus
Posts: 2,173
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10/23/2010 8:27:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/22/2010 10:22:23 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Government exists for the purpose of giving the illusion that we are a civilized people. Government does not actually make us civilized--quite the opposite--we have government because we are not civilized. If government were to suddenly collapse we would descend into even more chaos than we are in.

Agreed, so far.

The average person is irresponsible and irrational.

Here's where we disagree. Maybe I'm just from a different part of the culture than you are, but from where I stand, I see the average adult (not those of my generation, unfortunately) as being generally responsible with their own lives and making choices that are rational given the limited information they have.

The problem is, these individuals are making choices that make sense from their point of view, which is necessarily shorter-term and smaller scale then that of the nation as a whole. To make them make "civilized" decisions, then, we have government.

So politics is really the mechanism of how to control and get around these irrational people. It does not actually solve the problem. If solving the problem is your objective then politics is not what you should be concerned with. Is the solution how to control irrationality or is the solution how to have less irrationality?

Good point; and I'd say it would be better to change the mindset of the people than to continually punish them for making decisions that seemed right to them. If one could break the mindset of individualistic maverickism, get people to consider the long term, teach them to value logic over emotion, we'd need far less government.
Cavete mea inexorabilis legiones mimus!
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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10/23/2010 9:49:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/23/2010 12:28:16 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 10/23/2010 12:18:50 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/23/2010 5:36:52 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/22/2010 10:22:23 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Government exists for the purpose of giving the illusion that we are a civilized people. Government does not actually make us civilized--quite the opposite--we have government because we are not civilized. If government were to suddenly collapse we would descend into even more chaos than we are in. The average person is irresponsible and irrational. So politics is really the mechanism of how to control and get around these irrational people. It does not actually solve the problem. If solving the problem is your objective then politics is not what you should be concerned with. Is the solution how to control irrationality or is the solution how to have less rationality?

Define "civilized".


Good question. I meant be able able to fully socialize with each other in a rational manner.

So people wouldn't do that in an absence of government?

You'll looking at it the wrong way. I'm saying that if people would truly associate rationally with one another one their own accord then we wouldn't need government. I'm not saying getting rid of government gets rid of this problem, I'm saying getting rid of the problem gets rid of government.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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10/23/2010 9:53:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/23/2010 8:27:01 PM, Chrysippus wrote:
At 10/22/2010 10:22:23 PM, FREEDO wrote:
The average person is irresponsible and irrational.

Here's where we disagree. Maybe I'm just from a different part of the culture than you are, but from where I stand, I see the average adult (not those of my generation, unfortunately) as being generally responsible with their own lives and making choices that are rational given the limited information they have.

They only appear to be civilized because of the fall-back social institutions. When you take away the rules, these people will eat each other alive. Humans are generally like any other animal in this respect, except that they have a huge potential to become something else.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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10/24/2010 3:39:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/23/2010 9:53:34 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/23/2010 8:27:01 PM, Chrysippus wrote:
At 10/22/2010 10:22:23 PM, FREEDO wrote:
The average person is irresponsible and irrational.

Here's where we disagree. Maybe I'm just from a different part of the culture than you are, but from where I stand, I see the average adult (not those of my generation, unfortunately) as being generally responsible with their own lives and making choices that are rational given the limited information they have.

They only appear to be civilized because of the fall-back social institutions. When you take away the rules, these people will eat each other alive. Humans are generally like any other animal in this respect, except that they have a huge potential to become something else.

Put people in a position where they have to rid themselves of the rules to survive, then let them sort each other out.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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10/24/2010 3:20:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/24/2010 3:17:28 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Comon, "Ha....." isn't a refutation, it makes you look like a f*cking dumb@$$, and it adds absolutely nothing to the thread.

Edited to reflect what you really meant ;)
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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10/24/2010 3:22:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/24/2010 3:17:28 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Comon, "Ha....." isn't a refutation, it doesn't make you seem intelligent or witty, and it adds absolutely nothing to the thread.

I was not pertaining my, "Ha...." to anything in the thread, dummy!
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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10/24/2010 4:28:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/24/2010 3:22:51 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 10/24/2010 3:17:28 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Comon, "Ha....." isn't a refutation, it doesn't make you seem intelligent or witty, and it adds absolutely nothing to the thread.

I was not pertaining my, "Ha...." to anything in the thread, dummy!

Well then why the f*ck would you put it in here?
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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10/24/2010 4:59:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/24/2010 4:28:59 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/24/2010 3:22:51 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 10/24/2010 3:17:28 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Comon, "Ha....." isn't a refutation, it doesn't make you seem intelligent or witty, and it adds absolutely nothing to the thread.

I was not pertaining my, "Ha...." to anything in the thread, dummy!

Well then why the f*ck would you put it in here?

You got an "F" in being observant didn't you.
I did it for every thread to put a ":p"

Look down the line of threads...

It was a joke.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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10/24/2010 5:16:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/24/2010 4:59:58 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 10/24/2010 4:28:59 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/24/2010 3:22:51 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 10/24/2010 3:17:28 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Comon, "Ha....." isn't a refutation, it doesn't make you seem intelligent or witty, and it adds absolutely nothing to the thread.

I was not pertaining my, "Ha...." to anything in the thread, dummy!

Well then why the f*ck would you put it in here?

You got an "F" in being observant didn't you.
I did it for every thread to put a ":p"

Look down the line of threads...

It was a joke.

Jokes imply punchlines. What you did is more in the realm of "retarded".
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/24/2010 5:20:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Government was established to improve society. A society is a group of people living and working together. People decided that laws should be established and offenders should be punished. In Ancient Greece it was considered a huge honor to be a participating citizen. Now, people aren't involved in politics at all. Of course that's because our government is so huge. Philosophers have been telling us since forever that empires are destined to fall. Smaller city-states are the way to go. Attempting to govern that many people will always get messy.
President of DDO
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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10/24/2010 5:47:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/24/2010 5:16:14 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/24/2010 4:59:58 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 10/24/2010 4:28:59 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/24/2010 3:22:51 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 10/24/2010 3:17:28 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Comon, "Ha....." isn't a refutation, it doesn't make you seem intelligent or witty, and it adds absolutely nothing to the thread.

I was not pertaining my, "Ha...." to anything in the thread, dummy!

Well then why the f*ck would you put it in here?

You got an "F" in being observant didn't you.
I did it for every thread to put a ":p"

Look down the line of threads...

It was a joke.

Jokes imply punchlines. What you did is more in the realm of "retarded".

There is a punch line... Your it.

Ha......
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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10/24/2010 6:53:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/24/2010 5:47:50 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 10/24/2010 5:16:14 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/24/2010 4:59:58 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 10/24/2010 4:28:59 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/24/2010 3:22:51 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 10/24/2010 3:17:28 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Comon, "Ha....." isn't a refutation, it doesn't make you seem intelligent or witty, and it adds absolutely nothing to the thread.

I was not pertaining my, "Ha...." to anything in the thread, dummy!

Well then why the f*ck would you put it in here?

You got an "F" in being observant didn't you.
I did it for every thread to put a ":p"

Look down the line of threads...

It was a joke.

Jokes imply punchlines. What you did is more in the realm of "retarded".

There is a punch line... Your it.

Ha......

So, you're retarded then? Fair enough.