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When seconds count...

Maccabee
Posts: 1,242
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1/21/2016 12:09:13 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
...the police are just minutes away. It why some of us have guns.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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1/21/2016 12:18:56 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:09:13 AM, Maccabee wrote:
...the police are just minutes away. It why some of us have guns.

Bumper-sticker slogans are not the best of arguments.
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,789
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1/21/2016 12:25:18 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:18:56 AM, TBR wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:09:13 AM, Maccabee wrote:
...the police are just minutes away. It why some of us have guns.

Bumper-sticker slogans are not the best of arguments.

I disagree. Idioms have been used to settle debates for hundreds if not more than a thousand years.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
Maccabee
Posts: 1,242
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1/21/2016 12:27:30 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:18:56 AM, TBR wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:09:13 AM, Maccabee wrote:
...the police are just minutes away. It why some of us have guns.

Bumper-sticker slogans are not the best of arguments.

But it's true. If you ever called 911 how long did it took for the first responders to, well, respond?
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.
The-Voice-of-Truth
Posts: 6,571
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1/21/2016 12:39:23 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

That's why we have carry permit classes...
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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1/21/2016 12:41:38 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:39:23 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

That's why we have carry permit classes...

Which is a form of gun control.
kevin24018
Posts: 1,886
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1/21/2016 12:42:05 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

Joe Biden says use a shot gun, use a shot. He gave the green light, it's ok Joe said so.
http://www.usnews.com...
Maccabee
Posts: 1,242
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1/21/2016 12:42:06 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

Well one, I advocate that everybody who wants a gun for self defense train for such an occasion.

Two, having untrained gun owners isn't killing us off either. If your gonna compare a gun permit to cars then the minimum to get a learner's permit is to know the traffic laws and signs at least here in my state. You can have no driving experience and ride the highway as long as a lisence holder who is over 21 is with you riding shotgun.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
The-Voice-of-Truth
Posts: 6,571
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1/21/2016 12:43:07 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:41:38 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:39:23 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

That's why we have carry permit classes...

Which is a form of gun control.

Which is a form I am completely fine with, but that's as far as it goes.

If you can't properly use a gun, don't use a gun.
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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1/21/2016 12:44:19 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:42:05 AM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

Joe Biden says use a shot gun, use a shot. He gave the green light, it's ok Joe said so.
http://www.usnews.com...

Oh, well, if good ol' Joe said so.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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1/21/2016 12:45:56 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:42:06 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

Well one, I advocate that everybody who wants a gun for self defense train for such an occasion.

But you don't advocate that they *have* to be trained first, which is the issue.

Two, having untrained gun owners isn't killing us off either. If your gonna compare a gun permit to cars then the minimum to get a learner's permit is to know the traffic laws and signs at least here in my state. You can have no driving experience and ride the highway as long as a lisence holder who is over 21 is with you riding shotgun.

No, but it demolishes arguments like the OP. No untrained gun user can defend themselves, unless they get lucky.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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1/21/2016 12:47:05 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:43:07 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:41:38 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:39:23 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

That's why we have carry permit classes...

Which is a form of gun control.

Which is a form I am completely fine with, but that's as far as it goes.

So...just training. No one should check to make sure the person buying a gun is psychologically stable or an escaped convict?

If you can't properly use a gun, don't use a gun.
Maccabee
Posts: 1,242
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1/21/2016 12:49:38 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:45:56 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:42:06 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

Well one, I advocate that everybody who wants a gun for self defense train for such an occasion.

But you don't advocate that they *have* to be trained first, which is the issue.

No, I don't.

Two, having untrained gun owners isn't killing us off either. If your gonna compare a gun permit to cars then the minimum to get a learner's permit is to know the traffic laws and signs at least here in my state. You can have no driving experience and ride the highway as long as a lisence holder who is over 21 is with you riding shotgun.

No, but it demolishes arguments like the OP. No untrained gun user can defend themselves, unless they get lucky.

Actually this has little to do with OP. this is about waiting for the police vs handling the situation yourself. We'll assume that they have at least adequate firearms skills.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
The-Voice-of-Truth
Posts: 6,571
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1/21/2016 12:50:21 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:47:05 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:43:07 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:41:38 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:39:23 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

That's why we have carry permit classes...

Which is a form of gun control.

Which is a form I am completely fine with, but that's as far as it goes.

So...just training. No one should check to make sure the person buying a gun is psychologically stable or an escaped convict?

That is why we let everyone have guns. Guns are an effective deterrent.
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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1/21/2016 12:50:33 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:49:38 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:45:56 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:42:06 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

Well one, I advocate that everybody who wants a gun for self defense train for such an occasion.

But you don't advocate that they *have* to be trained first, which is the issue.

No, I don't.

Then you've helped no one.

Two, having untrained gun owners isn't killing us off either. If your gonna compare a gun permit to cars then the minimum to get a learner's permit is to know the traffic laws and signs at least here in my state. You can have no driving experience and ride the highway as long as a lisence holder who is over 21 is with you riding shotgun.

No, but it demolishes arguments like the OP. No untrained gun user can defend themselves, unless they get lucky.

Actually this has little to do with OP. this is about waiting for the police vs handling the situation yourself. We'll assume that they have at least adequate firearms skills.

What a lovely assumption with no basis in reality.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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1/21/2016 12:51:50 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:50:21 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:47:05 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:43:07 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:41:38 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:39:23 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

That's why we have carry permit classes...

Which is a form of gun control.

Which is a form I am completely fine with, but that's as far as it goes.

So...just training. No one should check to make sure the person buying a gun is psychologically stable or an escaped convict?

That is why we let everyone have guns. Guns are an effective deterrent.

Not to someone who isn't psychologically stable.
The-Voice-of-Truth
Posts: 6,571
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1/21/2016 12:52:59 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:51:50 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:50:21 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:47:05 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:43:07 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:41:38 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:39:23 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

That's why we have carry permit classes...

Which is a form of gun control.

Which is a form I am completely fine with, but that's as far as it goes.

So...just training. No one should check to make sure the person buying a gun is psychologically stable or an escaped convict?

That is why we let everyone have guns. Guns are an effective deterrent.

Not to someone who isn't psychologically stable.

Honestly, I think that is a part of the permit test.... that is, a mental stability exam.
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
Maccabee
Posts: 1,242
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1/21/2016 12:53:33 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:50:33 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:49:38 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:45:56 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:42:06 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

Well one, I advocate that everybody who wants a gun for self defense train for such an occasion.

But you don't advocate that they *have* to be trained first, which is the issue.

No, I don't.

Then you've helped no one.

Two, having untrained gun owners isn't killing us off either. If your gonna compare a gun permit to cars then the minimum to get a learner's permit is to know the traffic laws and signs at least here in my state. You can have no driving experience and ride the highway as long as a lisence holder who is over 21 is with you riding shotgun.

No, but it demolishes arguments like the OP. No untrained gun user can defend themselves, unless they get lucky.

Actually this has little to do with OP. this is about waiting for the police vs handling the situation yourself. We'll assume that they have at least adequate firearms skills.

What a lovely assumption with no basis in reality.

It has great basis in reality. Sure, a lot of folks aren't trained to fire under duress but most gun owners are average shots.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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1/21/2016 12:54:06 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:52:59 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:51:50 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:50:21 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:47:05 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:43:07 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:41:38 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:39:23 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

That's why we have carry permit classes...

Which is a form of gun control.

Which is a form I am completely fine with, but that's as far as it goes.

So...just training. No one should check to make sure the person buying a gun is psychologically stable or an escaped convict?

That is why we let everyone have guns. Guns are an effective deterrent.

Not to someone who isn't psychologically stable.

Honestly, I think that is a part of the permit test.... that is, a mental stability exam.

What a qualification that is! Suddenly we agree on all the necessary measures of gun control. A background check and training. That's it.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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1/21/2016 12:56:16 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:53:33 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:50:33 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:49:38 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:45:56 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:42:06 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

Well one, I advocate that everybody who wants a gun for self defense train for such an occasion.

But you don't advocate that they *have* to be trained first, which is the issue.

No, I don't.

Then you've helped no one.

Two, having untrained gun owners isn't killing us off either. If your gonna compare a gun permit to cars then the minimum to get a learner's permit is to know the traffic laws and signs at least here in my state. You can have no driving experience and ride the highway as long as a lisence holder who is over 21 is with you riding shotgun.

No, but it demolishes arguments like the OP. No untrained gun user can defend themselves, unless they get lucky.

Actually this has little to do with OP. this is about waiting for the police vs handling the situation yourself. We'll assume that they have at least adequate firearms skills.

What a lovely assumption with no basis in reality.

It has great basis in reality. Sure, a lot of folks aren't trained to fire under duress but most gun owners are average shots.

Are you aware that, when under duress, the accuracy and even thought process of someone untrained tends to fall substantially?
The-Voice-of-Truth
Posts: 6,571
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1/21/2016 1:04:28 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:54:06 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:52:59 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:51:50 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:50:21 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:47:05 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:43:07 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:41:38 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:39:23 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

That's why we have carry permit classes...

Which is a form of gun control.

Which is a form I am completely fine with, but that's as far as it goes.

So...just training. No one should check to make sure the person buying a gun is psychologically stable or an escaped convict?

That is why we let everyone have guns. Guns are an effective deterrent.

Not to someone who isn't psychologically stable.

Honestly, I think that is a part of the permit test.... that is, a mental stability exam.

What a qualification that is! Suddenly we agree on all the necessary measures of gun control. A background check and training. That's it.

I guess. I believe in the permit test and what happens there.... but that's it.
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
Maccabee
Posts: 1,242
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1/21/2016 1:06:19 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:56:16 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:53:33 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:50:33 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:49:38 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:45:56 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:42:06 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

Well one, I advocate that everybody who wants a gun for self defense train for such an occasion.

But you don't advocate that they *have* to be trained first, which is the issue.

No, I don't.

Then you've helped no one.

Two, having untrained gun owners isn't killing us off either. If your gonna compare a gun permit to cars then the minimum to get a learner's permit is to know the traffic laws and signs at least here in my state. You can have no driving experience and ride the highway as long as a lisence holder who is over 21 is with you riding shotgun.

No, but it demolishes arguments like the OP. No untrained gun user can defend themselves, unless they get lucky.

Actually this has little to do with OP. this is about waiting for the police vs handling the situation yourself. We'll assume that they have at least adequate firearms skills.

What a lovely assumption with no basis in reality.

It has great basis in reality. Sure, a lot of folks aren't trained to fire under duress but most gun owners are average shots.

Are you aware that, when under duress, the accuracy and even thought process of someone untrained tends to fall substantially?

True, but which you rather have, wait for the police while the psychopath is mere feet from you or try to defend yourself even though you haven't trained for it? Remember in each case the badguy is out to kill you.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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1/21/2016 1:13:05 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 1:06:19 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:56:16 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:53:33 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:50:33 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:49:38 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:45:56 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:42:06 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

Well one, I advocate that everybody who wants a gun for self defense train for such an occasion.

But you don't advocate that they *have* to be trained first, which is the issue.

No, I don't.

Then you've helped no one.

Two, having untrained gun owners isn't killing us off either. If your gonna compare a gun permit to cars then the minimum to get a learner's permit is to know the traffic laws and signs at least here in my state. You can have no driving experience and ride the highway as long as a lisence holder who is over 21 is with you riding shotgun.

No, but it demolishes arguments like the OP. No untrained gun user can defend themselves, unless they get lucky.

Actually this has little to do with OP. this is about waiting for the police vs handling the situation yourself. We'll assume that they have at least adequate firearms skills.

What a lovely assumption with no basis in reality.

It has great basis in reality. Sure, a lot of folks aren't trained to fire under duress but most gun owners are average shots.

Are you aware that, when under duress, the accuracy and even thought process of someone untrained tends to fall substantially?

True, but which you rather have, wait for the police while the psychopath is mere feet from you or try to defend yourself even though you haven't trained for it? Remember in each case the badguy is out to kill you.

If you have a gun, he/she is far more likely to kill you than if you don't. People don't break into your house with the intention of killing you. They want your things. If you're getting jumped in an alley, you're not going to be able to pull out your gun before getting shot. If you're in a school or movie theater, you're more likely to panic and shoot innocent people by mistake.
Maccabee
Posts: 1,242
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1/21/2016 1:18:35 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 1:13:05 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 1:06:19 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:56:16 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:53:33 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:50:33 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:49:38 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:45:56 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:42:06 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

Well one, I advocate that everybody who wants a gun for self defense train for such an occasion.

But you don't advocate that they *have* to be trained first, which is the issue.

No, I don't.

Then you've helped no one.

Two, having untrained gun owners isn't killing us off either. If your gonna compare a gun permit to cars then the minimum to get a learner's permit is to know the traffic laws and signs at least here in my state. You can have no driving experience and ride the highway as long as a lisence holder who is over 21 is with you riding shotgun.

No, but it demolishes arguments like the OP. No untrained gun user can defend themselves, unless they get lucky.

Actually this has little to do with OP. this is about waiting for the police vs handling the situation yourself. We'll assume that they have at least adequate firearms skills.

What a lovely assumption with no basis in reality.

It has great basis in reality. Sure, a lot of folks aren't trained to fire under duress but most gun owners are average shots.

Are you aware that, when under duress, the accuracy and even thought process of someone untrained tends to fall substantially?

True, but which you rather have, wait for the police while the psychopath is mere feet from you or try to defend yourself even though you haven't trained for it? Remember in each case the badguy is out to kill you.

If you have a gun, he/she is far more likely to kill you than if you don't. People don't break into your house with the intention of killing you. They want your things. If you're getting jumped in an alley, you're not going to be able to pull out your gun before getting shot. If you're in a school or movie theater, you're more likely to panic and shoot innocent people by mistake.

Home invasions happen a lot as these links indicate.

http://lockjawsecurity.com...

http://www.usacarry.com...
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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1/21/2016 1:20:15 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 1:18:35 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 1:13:05 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 1:06:19 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:56:16 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:53:33 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:50:33 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:49:38 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:45:56 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:42:06 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

Well one, I advocate that everybody who wants a gun for self defense train for such an occasion.

But you don't advocate that they *have* to be trained first, which is the issue.

No, I don't.

Then you've helped no one.

Two, having untrained gun owners isn't killing us off either. If your gonna compare a gun permit to cars then the minimum to get a learner's permit is to know the traffic laws and signs at least here in my state. You can have no driving experience and ride the highway as long as a lisence holder who is over 21 is with you riding shotgun.

No, but it demolishes arguments like the OP. No untrained gun user can defend themselves, unless they get lucky.

Actually this has little to do with OP. this is about waiting for the police vs handling the situation yourself. We'll assume that they have at least adequate firearms skills.

What a lovely assumption with no basis in reality.

It has great basis in reality. Sure, a lot of folks aren't trained to fire under duress but most gun owners are average shots.

Are you aware that, when under duress, the accuracy and even thought process of someone untrained tends to fall substantially?

True, but which you rather have, wait for the police while the psychopath is mere feet from you or try to defend yourself even though you haven't trained for it? Remember in each case the badguy is out to kill you.

If you have a gun, he/she is far more likely to kill you than if you don't. People don't break into your house with the intention of killing you. They want your things. If you're getting jumped in an alley, you're not going to be able to pull out your gun before getting shot. If you're in a school or movie theater, you're more likely to panic and shoot innocent people by mistake.

Home invasions happen a lot as these links indicate.

Never said they didn't. I said most times, people don't break into your home to kill you.

http://lockjawsecurity.com...

http://www.usacarry.com...
Maccabee
Posts: 1,242
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1/21/2016 1:31:23 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 1:20:15 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 1:18:35 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 1:13:05 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 1:06:19 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:56:16 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:53:33 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:50:33 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:49:38 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:45:56 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:42:06 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

Well one, I advocate that everybody who wants a gun for self defense train for such an occasion.

But you don't advocate that they *have* to be trained first, which is the issue.

No, I don't.

Then you've helped no one.

Two, having untrained gun owners isn't killing us off either. If your gonna compare a gun permit to cars then the minimum to get a learner's permit is to know the traffic laws and signs at least here in my state. You can have no driving experience and ride the highway as long as a lisence holder who is over 21 is with you riding shotgun.

No, but it demolishes arguments like the OP. No untrained gun user can defend themselves, unless they get lucky.

Actually this has little to do with OP. this is about waiting for the police vs handling the situation yourself. We'll assume that they have at least adequate firearms skills.

What a lovely assumption with no basis in reality.

It has great basis in reality. Sure, a lot of folks aren't trained to fire under duress but most gun owners are average shots.

Are you aware that, when under duress, the accuracy and even thought process of someone untrained tends to fall substantially?

True, but which you rather have, wait for the police while the psychopath is mere feet from you or try to defend yourself even though you haven't trained for it? Remember in each case the badguy is out to kill you.

If you have a gun, he/she is far more likely to kill you than if you don't. People don't break into your house with the intention of killing you. They want your things. If you're getting jumped in an alley, you're not going to be able to pull out your gun before getting shot. If you're in a school or movie theater, you're more likely to panic and shoot innocent people by mistake.

Home invasions happen a lot as these links indicate.

Never said they didn't. I said most times, people don't break into your home to kill you.

I wouldlike to say first of all if can stay in your room during a break in then do so and have your gun ready and call the police, but you'd ignored the link where it says that up to 60% of murders happened during home invasion. Also guns saves more lives than kill.

http://www.gunowners.org...

I would like to see the study where you are more likely to be killed by the assailant than use it in defense.

http://lockjawsecurity.com...

http://www.usacarry.com...
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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1/21/2016 1:35:54 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 1:31:23 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 1:20:15 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 1:18:35 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 1:13:05 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 1:06:19 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:56:16 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:53:33 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:50:33 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:49:38 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:45:56 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:42:06 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

Well one, I advocate that everybody who wants a gun for self defense train for such an occasion.

But you don't advocate that they *have* to be trained first, which is the issue.

No, I don't.

Then you've helped no one.

Two, having untrained gun owners isn't killing us off either. If your gonna compare a gun permit to cars then the minimum to get a learner's permit is to know the traffic laws and signs at least here in my state. You can have no driving experience and ride the highway as long as a lisence holder who is over 21 is with you riding shotgun.

No, but it demolishes arguments like the OP. No untrained gun user can defend themselves, unless they get lucky.

Actually this has little to do with OP. this is about waiting for the police vs handling the situation yourself. We'll assume that they have at least adequate firearms skills.

What a lovely assumption with no basis in reality.

It has great basis in reality. Sure, a lot of folks aren't trained to fire under duress but most gun owners are average shots.

Are you aware that, when under duress, the accuracy and even thought process of someone untrained tends to fall substantially?

True, but which you rather have, wait for the police while the psychopath is mere feet from you or try to defend yourself even though you haven't trained for it? Remember in each case the badguy is out to kill you.

If you have a gun, he/she is far more likely to kill you than if you don't. People don't break into your house with the intention of killing you. They want your things. If you're getting jumped in an alley, you're not going to be able to pull out your gun before getting shot. If you're in a school or movie theater, you're more likely to panic and shoot innocent people by mistake.

Home invasions happen a lot as these links indicate.

Never said they didn't. I said most times, people don't break into your home to kill you.

I wouldlike to say first of all if can stay in your room during a break in then do so and have your gun ready and call the police, but you'd ignored the link where it says that up to 60% of murders happened during home invasion. Also guns saves more lives than kill.

http://www.gunowners.org....

Yeah, that's not a biased source. I can find 3 sources claiming the opposite without even looking.

I would like to see the study where you are more likely to be killed by the assailant than use it in defense.

Simple logic. If someone breaks into your home and you don't have a gun, you're not a threat. They can just threaten you, steal, whatever, and leave - or, in many cases, get arrested. If you have a gun, you re a threat. You're now in a stressful situation with no training against a criminal, someone almost certainly proficient in gun usage. The odds do not favor you.

http://lockjawsecurity.com...

http://www.usacarry.com...
Maccabee
Posts: 1,242
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1/21/2016 2:13:41 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 1:35:54 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 1:31:23 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 1:20:15 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 1:18:35 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 1:13:05 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 1:06:19 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:56:16 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:53:33 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:50:33 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:49:38 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:45:56 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:42:06 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

Well one, I advocate that everybody who wants a gun for self defense train for such an occasion.

But you don't advocate that they *have* to be trained first, which is the issue.

No, I don't.

Then you've helped no one.

Two, having untrained gun owners isn't killing us off either. If your gonna compare a gun permit to cars then the minimum to get a learner's permit is to know the traffic laws and signs at least here in my state. You can have no driving experience and ride the highway as long as a lisence holder who is over 21 is with you riding shotgun.

No, but it demolishes arguments like the OP. No untrained gun user can defend themselves, unless they get lucky.

Actually this has little to do with OP. this is about waiting for the police vs handling the situation yourself. We'll assume that they have at least adequate firearms skills.

What a lovely assumption with no basis in reality.

It has great basis in reality. Sure, a lot of folks aren't trained to fire under duress but most gun owners are average shots.

Are you aware that, when under duress, the accuracy and even thought process of someone untrained tends to fall substantially?

True, but which you rather have, wait for the police while the psychopath is mere feet from you or try to defend yourself even though you haven't trained for it? Remember in each case the badguy is out to kill you.

If you have a gun, he/she is far more likely to kill you than if you don't. People don't break into your house with the intention of killing you. They want your things. If you're getting jumped in an alley, you're not going to be able to pull out your gun before getting shot. If you're in a school or movie theater, you're more likely to panic and shoot innocent people by mistake.

Home invasions happen a lot as these links indicate.

Never said they didn't. I said most times, people don't break into your home to kill you.

I wouldlike to say first of all if can stay in your room during a break in then do so and have your gun ready and call the police, but you'd ignored the link where it says that up to 60% of murders happened during home invasion. Also guns saves more lives than kill.

http://www.gunowners.org....

Yeah, that's not a biased source. I can find 3 sources claiming the opposite without even looking.

Go ahead then.

I would like to see the study where you are more likely to be killed by the assailant than use it in defense.

Simple logic. If someone breaks into your home and you don't have a gun, you're not a threat. They can just threaten you, steal, whatever, and leave - or, in many cases, get arrested. If you have a gun, you re a threat. You're now in a stressful situation with no training against a criminal, someone almost certainly proficient in gun usage. The odds do not favor you.

But if they come into the room I'm in then they are for sure coming to harm me. Usually criminals don't like witnesses. What make you think that he'll simply tie you up and leave you there?

http://lockjawsecurity.com...

http://www.usacarry.com...
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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1/21/2016 2:13:51 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:39:23 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/21/2016 12:32:53 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because everyone knows that everyday citizens become magical dead-eye shots the instant they touch a gun and, not only that, they spontaenously develop the necessary psychological training to actually shoot another person in self-defense. Not like any of that comes from training or practice, like the liberals want to give them. No, let's just make guns available to anyone, no licensing, no training required. We'll give thousands of untrained citizens guns. That'll save lives.

That's why we have carry permit classes...

What a joke. The classes are weak, requirements very low.