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Is abortion murder

adam_418_1984
Posts: 12
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2/3/2016 6:06:01 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
I say absolutely any moral person will tell you that abortion is murder. The fact of the matter is that a fetus is a human being with a right to life, and abortion is therefore murder and should be illegal.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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2/3/2016 6:18:28 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 6:06:01 PM, adam_418_1984 wrote:
I say absolutely any moral person will tell you that abortion is murder. The fact of the matter is that a fetus is a human being with a right to life, and abortion is therefore murder and should be illegal.

Have any more vapid proclamations for us?
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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2/3/2016 6:20:45 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 6:20:13 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
This thread was so substantive and engaging that we truly needed it a second time.

^^^
adam_418_1984
Posts: 12
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2/3/2016 6:27:55 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 6:18:28 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/3/2016 6:06:01 PM, adam_418_1984 wrote:
I say absolutely any moral person will tell you that abortion is murder. The fact of the matter is that a fetus is a human being with a right to life, and abortion is therefore murder and should be illegal.

Have any more vapid proclamations for us?

It is wrong to kill another human being for personal reasons (because it is murder)
A human zygote or fetus is a human being
Therefore, it is wrong to kill a human zygote or fetus for personal reasons

If [3] is a sound conclusion, then we can also strengthen the argument as follows:

It is especially wrong to kill a human being (Harry) to the degree that [i] Harry is innocent; [ii] Harry is defenseless; [iii] Harry has more to lose; [iv] the killing is premeditated; [v] the killing is enabled by someone who is under a special duty to protect Harry
A human zygote or fetus is [i] as innocent and [ii] as defenseless as a human being can be; a human zygote or fetus has [iii] the most to lose in terms of the life it could still live; [iv] abortion is always premeditated; [v] abortion is enabled by the mother, who has a special duty to protect her child at any early stage of development
Therefore, it is especially wrong, to the greatest degree possible, to kill Harry if he is a human zygote or fetus

Obviously [5] would have to be built out for a complete and full defense, but I think it is pretty clear and unobjectionable as it stands.

You"ll notice the question of whether Harry is a person is irrelevant to the argument. Indeed, if he is not a person, then killing him is even worse, as per objection #4 below.

You"ll also notice the argument"s premises are very modest. They don"t require you to believe in God, or even in objective moral laws. Only that you have basic intuitions about murder, innocence, and familial duties which all people seem to share.
famousdebater
Posts: 3,941
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2/3/2016 6:44:57 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 6:06:01 PM, adam_418_1984 wrote:
I say absolutely any moral person will tell you that abortion is murder. The fact of the matter is that a fetus is a human being with a right to life, and abortion is therefore murder and should be illegal.

BS. When I get the time to I'll show you why abortion is not murder.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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2/3/2016 6:47:41 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 6:27:55 PM, adam_418_1984 wrote:
At 2/3/2016 6:18:28 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/3/2016 6:06:01 PM, adam_418_1984 wrote:
I say absolutely any moral person will tell you that abortion is murder. The fact of the matter is that a fetus is a human being with a right to life, and abortion is therefore murder and should be illegal.

Have any more vapid proclamations for us?



It is wrong to kill another human being for personal reasons (because it is murder)
A human zygote or fetus is a human being
Therefore, it is wrong to kill a human zygote or fetus for personal reasons

If [3] is a sound conclusion, then we can also strengthen the argument as follows:

It is especially wrong to kill a human being (Harry) to the degree that [i] Harry is innocent; [ii] Harry is defenseless; [iii] Harry has more to lose; [iv] the killing is premeditated; [v] the killing is enabled by someone who is under a special duty to protect Harry
A human zygote or fetus is [i] as innocent and [ii] as defenseless as a human being can be; a human zygote or fetus has [iii] the most to lose in terms of the life it could still live; [iv] abortion is always premeditated; [v] abortion is enabled by the mother, who has a special duty to protect her child at any early stage of development
Therefore, it is especially wrong, to the greatest degree possible, to kill Harry if he is a human zygote or fetus

Obviously [5] would have to be built out for a complete and full defense, but I think it is pretty clear and unobjectionable as it stands.

You"ll notice the question of whether Harry is a person is irrelevant to the argument. Indeed, if he is not a person, then killing him is even worse, as per objection #4 below.

You"ll also notice the argument"s premises are very modest. They don"t require you to believe in God, or even in objective moral laws. Only that you have basic intuitions about murder, innocence, and familial duties which all people seem to share.

OK, how about YOU present an argument. Cut and pasting another work is not worth anyone's time.
Torton
Posts: 988
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2/3/2016 6:52:53 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 6:06:01 PM, adam_418_1984 wrote:
I say absolutely any moral person will tell you that abortion is murder.
"People can only be moral if they agree with my views!"
The fact of the matter is that a fetus is a human being with a right to life, and abortion is therefore murder and should be illegal.
The whole question regarding abortions, is when does it become a person.
liltankjj
Posts: 430
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2/3/2016 8:48:30 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 6:44:57 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 2/3/2016 6:06:01 PM, adam_418_1984 wrote:
I say absolutely any moral person will tell you that abortion is murder. The fact of the matter is that a fetus is a human being with a right to life, and abortion is therefore murder and should be illegal.

BS. When I get the time to I'll show you why abortion is not murder.

I'm interested. Do share
liltankjj
Posts: 430
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2/3/2016 8:50:13 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 6:47:41 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/3/2016 6:27:55 PM, adam_418_1984 wrote:
At 2/3/2016 6:18:28 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/3/2016 6:06:01 PM, adam_418_1984 wrote:
I say absolutely any moral person will tell you that abortion is murder. The fact of the matter is that a fetus is a human being with a right to life, and abortion is therefore murder and should be illegal.

Have any more vapid proclamations for us?



It is wrong to kill another human being for personal reasons (because it is murder)
A human zygote or fetus is a human being
Therefore, it is wrong to kill a human zygote or fetus for personal reasons

If [3] is a sound conclusion, then we can also strengthen the argument as follows:

It is especially wrong to kill a human being (Harry) to the degree that [i] Harry is innocent; [ii] Harry is defenseless; [iii] Harry has more to lose; [iv] the killing is premeditated; [v] the killing is enabled by someone who is under a special duty to protect Harry
A human zygote or fetus is [i] as innocent and [ii] as defenseless as a human being can be; a human zygote or fetus has [iii] the most to lose in terms of the life it could still live; [iv] abortion is always premeditated; [v] abortion is enabled by the mother, who has a special duty to protect her child at any early stage of development
Therefore, it is especially wrong, to the greatest degree possible, to kill Harry if he is a human zygote or fetus

Obviously [5] would have to be built out for a complete and full defense, but I think it is pretty clear and unobjectionable as it stands.

You"ll notice the question of whether Harry is a person is irrelevant to the argument. Indeed, if he is not a person, then killing him is even worse, as per objection #4 below.

You"ll also notice the argument"s premises are very modest. They don"t require you to believe in God, or even in objective moral laws. Only that you have basic intuitions about murder, innocence, and familial duties which all people seem to share.

OK, how about YOU present an argument. Cut and pasting another work is not worth anyone's time.

I don't think I see what's wrong with cutting and pasting, as long as there is an adequate citing of the original.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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2/3/2016 8:52:09 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 8:50:13 PM, liltankjj wrote:
At 2/3/2016 6:47:41 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/3/2016 6:27:55 PM, adam_418_1984 wrote:
At 2/3/2016 6:18:28 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/3/2016 6:06:01 PM, adam_418_1984 wrote:
I say absolutely any moral person will tell you that abortion is murder. The fact of the matter is that a fetus is a human being with a right to life, and abortion is therefore murder and should be illegal.

Have any more vapid proclamations for us?



It is wrong to kill another human being for personal reasons (because it is murder)
A human zygote or fetus is a human being
Therefore, it is wrong to kill a human zygote or fetus for personal reasons

If [3] is a sound conclusion, then we can also strengthen the argument as follows:

It is especially wrong to kill a human being (Harry) to the degree that [i] Harry is innocent; [ii] Harry is defenseless; [iii] Harry has more to lose; [iv] the killing is premeditated; [v] the killing is enabled by someone who is under a special duty to protect Harry
A human zygote or fetus is [i] as innocent and [ii] as defenseless as a human being can be; a human zygote or fetus has [iii] the most to lose in terms of the life it could still live; [iv] abortion is always premeditated; [v] abortion is enabled by the mother, who has a special duty to protect her child at any early stage of development
Therefore, it is especially wrong, to the greatest degree possible, to kill Harry if he is a human zygote or fetus

Obviously [5] would have to be built out for a complete and full defense, but I think it is pretty clear and unobjectionable as it stands.

You"ll notice the question of whether Harry is a person is irrelevant to the argument. Indeed, if he is not a person, then killing him is even worse, as per objection #4 below.

You"ll also notice the argument"s premises are very modest. They don"t require you to believe in God, or even in objective moral laws. Only that you have basic intuitions about murder, innocence, and familial duties which all people seem to share.

OK, how about YOU present an argument. Cut and pasting another work is not worth anyone's time.

I don't think I see what's wrong with cutting and pasting, as long as there is an adequate citing of the original.

He is not giving a moments thought to the argument, just passing it off. Had he used this other persons argument to substantiate his own, well that would be fine. This is just spamming the forum with other peoples thoughts.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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2/3/2016 8:54:25 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
I don't think I see what's wrong with cutting and pasting, as long as there is an adequate citing of the original.

It like me saying

"Well, here http://www.prochoiceamerica.org... "

Its not an argument, it is a link.
liltankjj
Posts: 430
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2/3/2016 8:56:58 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 8:52:09 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/3/2016 8:50:13 PM, liltankjj wrote:
At 2/3/2016 6:47:41 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/3/2016 6:27:55 PM, adam_418_1984 wrote:
At 2/3/2016 6:18:28 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/3/2016 6:06:01 PM, adam_418_1984 wrote:
I say absolutely any moral person will tell you that abortion is murder. The fact of the matter is that a fetus is a human being with a right to life, and abortion is therefore murder and should be illegal.

Have any more vapid proclamations for us?



It is wrong to kill another human being for personal reasons (because it is murder)
A human zygote or fetus is a human being
Therefore, it is wrong to kill a human zygote or fetus for personal reasons

If [3] is a sound conclusion, then we can also strengthen the argument as follows:

It is especially wrong to kill a human being (Harry) to the degree that [i] Harry is innocent; [ii] Harry is defenseless; [iii] Harry has more to lose; [iv] the killing is premeditated; [v] the killing is enabled by someone who is under a special duty to protect Harry
A human zygote or fetus is [i] as innocent and [ii] as defenseless as a human being can be; a human zygote or fetus has [iii] the most to lose in terms of the life it could still live; [iv] abortion is always premeditated; [v] abortion is enabled by the mother, who has a special duty to protect her child at any early stage of development
Therefore, it is especially wrong, to the greatest degree possible, to kill Harry if he is a human zygote or fetus

Obviously [5] would have to be built out for a complete and full defense, but I think it is pretty clear and unobjectionable as it stands.

You"ll notice the question of whether Harry is a person is irrelevant to the argument. Indeed, if he is not a person, then killing him is even worse, as per objection #4 below.

You"ll also notice the argument"s premises are very modest. They don"t require you to believe in God, or even in objective moral laws. Only that you have basic intuitions about murder, innocence, and familial duties which all people seem to share.

OK, how about YOU present an argument. Cut and pasting another work is not worth anyone's time.

I don't think I see what's wrong with cutting and pasting, as long as there is an adequate citing of the original.

He is not giving a moments thought to the argument, just passing it off. Had he used this other persons argument to substantiate his own, well that would be fine. This is just spamming the forum with other peoples thoughts.

I can understand that. Good shot.
liltankjj
Posts: 430
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2/3/2016 8:57:38 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 8:54:25 PM, TBR wrote:
I don't think I see what's wrong with cutting and pasting, as long as there is an adequate citing of the original.

It like me saying

"Well, here http://www.prochoiceamerica.org... "

Its not an argument, it is a link.

yep, you have a sound point
Geogeer
Posts: 4,253
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2/3/2016 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 8:48:30 PM, liltankjj wrote:
At 2/3/2016 6:44:57 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 2/3/2016 6:06:01 PM, adam_418_1984 wrote:
I say absolutely any moral person will tell you that abortion is murder. The fact of the matter is that a fetus is a human being with a right to life, and abortion is therefore murder and should be illegal.

BS. When I get the time to I'll show you why abortion is not murder.

I'm interested. Do share
frbnsn
Posts: 353
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2/4/2016 9:43:16 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/3/2016 6:06:01 PM, adam_418_1984 wrote:
I say absolutely any moral person will tell you that abortion is murder. The fact of the matter is that a fetus is a human being with a right to life, and abortion is therefore murder and should be illegal.

You are right.
tejretics
Posts: 6,089
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2/4/2016 11:52:08 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
(1) There's quite a difference between "is" and "ought to be." Even if abortion ought to be considered murder, in most countries it is legal and isn't an offense. Murder is the *illegal* killing of a human being. A soldier killing another while at war isn't "murder," though it's killing a human being.

(2) The fetus is very much a living thing. But that doesn't automatically grant it rights. Plants are living organisms as well, but almost everyone uses plant products -- often involving the death of a plant. Most ethical frameworks hold that ethical consideration only applies to sentient beings, i.e. individuals with the ability to feel or perceive subjectively. Fetuses can't feel pain, and they lack emotions entirely, until the 24th week of pregnancy. Research suggesting that a fetus can feel pain after 20 weeks is probably false, since (a) the paper in question didn't actually take into account the influence of psychology on "feeling pain," and (b) it's against the scientific consensus. Even if the fetus can feel pain after 20 weeks, ban abortion *after 20 weeks.*

(3) One could also argue from a moral FW of nihilism, where morality itself is subjective, or a position that the government is an amoral actor, therefore it doesn't legislate on what the most "moral" position is.

(4) There are a lot of harms to banning abortion. For instance, banning abortion won't stop people from aborting their fetuses. Many countries report *minimal* decrease -- if any -- in their abortion rates following the adoption of a ban on abortion. The difference is, the people who abort when it's illegal engage in illegal "back-alley" abortions, a dangerous procedure often resulting in pain and death of the mother along with the death of the fetus.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass