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Speaking of Jews...

innomen
Posts: 10,052
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11/1/2010 6:33:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I never understood the propensity for Jews to be (typically) very liberal. This seems to not just be the case for the US but for the world, and within modern history.

The puzzling thing about it is they also typically are very capitalist oriented, and one would assume that the preservation and continued success of Israel would be a priority.

A Jewish friend of mine who is ultra left wing, has a home in a wealthy suburb and a vacation spot in Martha's Vineyard and tons of inherited wealth was extolling to me the evils of our capitalist system and how pockets of wealth are a defect of our society when there is such poverty in the world. [Note to Cody, i am able to keep this person as a friend despite this ridiculous hypocrisy.] She's also hugely against Israel at almost every turn. The thing of it is, i have come across many Jewish people that have similar political positions and are generally well off.

My confusion lies in how they can take political positions that, if carried to their natural conclusion, would be terribly against their own self interest. I can understand a few here and there that would adopt a liberal stance, but i would say that the vast majority of Jews take political positions that are counter to their general behavior and best interest.

Anyone care to explain?
m93samman
Posts: 2,685
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11/1/2010 6:37:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 6:33:41 AM, innomen wrote:
I never understood the propensity for Jews to be (typically) very liberal. This seems to not just be the case for the US but for the world, and within modern history.

The puzzling thing about it is they also typically are very capitalist oriented, and one would assume that the preservation and continued success of Israel would be a priority.

A Jewish friend of mine who is ultra left wing, has a home in a wealthy suburb and a vacation spot in Martha's Vineyard and tons of inherited wealth was extolling to me the evils of our capitalist system and how pockets of wealth are a defect of our society when there is such poverty in the world. [Note to Cody, i am able to keep this person as a friend despite this ridiculous hypocrisy.] She's also hugely against Israel at almost every turn. The thing of it is, i have come across many Jewish people that have similar political positions and are generally well off.

My confusion lies in how they can take political positions that, if carried to their natural conclusion, would be terribly against their own self interest. I can understand a few here and there that would adopt a liberal stance, but i would say that the vast majority of Jews take political positions that are counter to their general behavior and best interest.

Anyone care to explain?

For me, I generally describe it as genuine philanthropy. I don't think it's any clearer; many (Christians) tell me it's impossible to genuinely care for someone else *unless it's through Jesus*, which is crap.

The person just really seems to be in tune with society's needs.
: At 4/15/2011 5:29:37 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
: Pascal's wager is for poosies.
:
: I mean that sincerly, because it's basically an argument from poooosie.
:
: I'm pretty sure that's like a fallacy.. Argument ad Pussium or something like that.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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11/1/2010 6:39:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Depends how jewish they are.

Jewish American communities tend to be a stronghold for the Democratic Party, with more than 70% of Jewish voters having cast their ballots for the Democrats in the 2004 and 2006 elections.[9][10] Support tends to vary among specific sectarian groups. For example, only 13% of Orthodox Jews supported Barack Obama in 2008 while around 60% of Conservative Jews and Reform Jews did so.[35] A 2010 poll by the Pew Research Center found that 60% of self-described Jews identified as Democratic or leaning towards the party, compared to 33% with those feelings towards Republicans.[6]

I wrote that.
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Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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11/1/2010 6:42:15 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 6:33:41 AM, innomen wrote:

A Jewish friend of mine who is ultra left wing, has a home in a wealthy suburb and a vacation spot in Martha's Vineyard and tons of inherited wealth was extolling to me the evils of our capitalist system and how pockets of wealth are a defect of our society when there is such poverty in the world. [Note to Cody, i am able to keep this person as a friend despite this ridiculous hypocrisy.] She's also hugely against Israel at almost every turn. The thing of it is, i have come across many Jewish people that have similar political positions and are generally well off.

Tu croquet? (play on tu quoque in case you're not an uber latin nerd)
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Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/1/2010 6:47:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 6:33:41 AM, innomen wrote:
I never understood the propensity for Jews to be (typically) very liberal. This seems to not just be the case for the US but for the world, and within modern history.

Jewish culture places great emphasis on education. Educated people are more likely to be Liberals. Before someone with a chip on my shoulder jumps down my throat with is merely a correlation. It's also a positive and a negative thing.

Education leads to be a more intelligent or 'academic' world view not always a better one though.

The puzzling thing about it is they also typically are very capitalist oriented, and one would assume that the preservation and continued success of Israel would be a priority.

The two things do not follow, and indeed Israel is a huge burden on the Jewish race. For genuine religous Jews it is anathema, for Liberal Jews it is a moral outrage that undermines their personal quality of life. American Jews have to fear reprisals and Judgement for a state that really does nothing for them and is nothing to them.

A Jewish friend of mine who is ultra left wing, has a home in a wealthy suburb and a vacation spot in Martha's Vineyard and tons of inherited wealth was extolling to me the evils of our capitalist system and how pockets of wealth are a defect of our society when there is such poverty in the world. [Note to Cody, i am able to keep this person as a friend despite this ridiculous hypocrisy.] She's also hugely against Israel at almost every turn. The thing of it is, i have come across many Jewish people that have similar political positions and are generally well off.

My confusion lies in how they can take political positions that, if carried to their natural conclusion, would be terribly against their own self interest. I can understand a few here and there that would adopt a liberal stance, but i would say that the vast majority of Jews take political positions that are counter to their general behavior and best interest.

Anyone care to explain?

This is very common and not just amongst Jews, you called it teenage communist syndrome, a teenage communist would most likely be the son of wealthy parents. They are able to cultivate a more 'enlightened' political position whilst being divorced from reality and so do not develop wisdom.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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11/1/2010 7:06:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 6:47:44 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/1/2010 6:33:41 AM, innomen wrote:
I never understood the propensity for Jews to be (typically) very liberal. This seems to not just be the case for the US but for the world, and within modern history.

Jewish culture places great emphasis on education. Educated people are more likely to be Liberals. Before someone with a chip on my shoulder jumps down my throat with is merely a correlation. It's also a positive and a negative thing.

Education leads to be a more intelligent or 'academic' world view not always a better one though.
Maybe. Perhaps the value of education more so than actual education.

The puzzling thing about it is they also typically are very capitalist oriented, and one would assume that the preservation and continued success of Israel would be a priority.

The two things do not follow, and indeed Israel is a huge burden on the Jewish race. For genuine religous Jews it is anathema, for Liberal Jews it is a moral outrage that undermines their personal quality of life. American Jews have to fear reprisals and Judgement for a state that really does nothing for them and is nothing to them.
Nothing to them? Even the most liberal Jews go to Israel for bah mitzvahs when they can. I'm not so sure it means "nothing" to them. Also, living with reprisals is nothing new for Jews.
'

A Jewish friend of mine who is ultra left wing, has a home in a wealthy suburb and a vacation spot in Martha's Vineyard and tons of inherited wealth was extolling to me the evils of our capitalist system and how pockets of wealth are a defect of our society when there is such poverty in the world. [Note to Cody, i am able to keep this person as a friend despite this ridiculous hypocrisy.] She's also hugely against Israel at almost every turn. The thing of it is, i have come across many Jewish people that have similar political positions and are generally well off.

My confusion lies in how they can take political positions that, if carried to their natural conclusion, would be terribly against their own self interest. I can understand a few here and there that would adopt a liberal stance, but i would say that the vast majority of Jews take political positions that are counter to their general behavior and best interest.

Anyone care to explain?

This is very common and not just amongst Jews, you called it teenage communist syndrome, a teenage communist would most likely be the son of wealthy parents. They are able to cultivate a more 'enlightened' political position whilst being divorced from reality and so do not develop wisdom.
That's a pretty good point, but i am guessing that less wealthy Jews (there must be one out there somewhere), are equally committed to liberal causes. Just a guess.
Caramel
Posts: 855
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11/1/2010 7:23:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Well, considering coservatism and christianity go together like peanut butter and jelly, why the hell would jews be attracted to a xenophobically christian cause?
no comment
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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11/1/2010 7:36:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I really like this topic. I am a Jew, and recently voted republican for the first time in my life. Both my parents vote Democrat, as does my sister and the rest of my family. First let me start by saying I grew up in a very "liberal" home. By liberal, I do not mean politically, but literally. I was taught pretty much to look around and see things for myself. I did not have very many rules and was free to make my own mistakes. I have simply found that I'm tired of paying for a bunch of lazy, stupid, and complacent people with my tax dollars. I have worked hard my whole life at everything I've done to get to point I'm at today. Why should I GIVE almost HALF what I EARNED to a cause that I wholeheartedly disagree with?
I do not call myself liberal or conservative, but as far as MY money is concerned, I have to go with the plan allows me to keep it, or at least contribute my share to a cause I favor. A little work ethic would go a long way in this country...wait, I think that is the whole point of the American dream. What has been lost in the American dream? If you want the happiness and wealth this country has to offer, it is there for the taking with a lot of hard work and doing the right thing. My family will continue to vote liberal, but from now on, I vote for the candidate who I believe wants the best for the country as a whole.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/1/2010 7:42:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 7:06:18 AM, innomen wrote:

Nothing to them? Even the most liberal Jews go to Israel for bah mitzvahs when they can. I'm not so sure it means "nothing" to them. Also, living with reprisals is nothing new for Jews.

And they would probably do so if the Ottoman Empire still existed, it is still their holy land, and it is holy not because of Israel but indeed inspite of it.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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11/1/2010 8:01:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 7:23:22 AM, Caramel wrote:
Well, considering coservatism and christianity go together like peanut butter and jelly, why the hell would jews be attracted to a xenophobically christian cause?

While I agree that the conservative party has become the "Christian" party, I don't know that the republican cause is a "Christian" cause. I did not vote for "W" because he was a moron, not because he was a Christian. I just so happens that because he is a moron he did not understand much of anything. When people can't understand something, they turn to religion for the answers. I will stop now, as I feel I am off topic and opening up a can of worms.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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11/1/2010 8:52:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 7:36:59 AM, gavin.ogden wrote:
I really like this topic. I am a Jew, and recently voted republican for the first time in my life. Both my parents vote Democrat, as does my sister and the rest of my family. First let me start by saying I grew up in a very "liberal" home. By liberal, I do not mean politically, but literally. I was taught pretty much to look around and see things for myself. I did not have very many rules and was free to make my own mistakes. I have simply found that I'm tired of paying for a bunch of lazy, stupid, and complacent people with my tax dollars. I have worked hard my whole life at everything I've done to get to point I'm at today. Why should I GIVE almost HALF what I EARNED to a cause that I wholeheartedly disagree with?
I do not call myself liberal or conservative, but as far as MY money is concerned, I have to go with the plan allows me to keep it, or at least contribute my share to a cause I favor. A little work ethic would go a long way in this country...wait, I think that is the whole point of the American dream. What has been lost in the American dream? If you want the happiness and wealth this country has to offer, it is there for the taking with a lot of hard work and doing the right thing. My family will continue to vote liberal, but from now on, I vote for the candidate who I believe wants the best for the country as a whole.

You're not really addressing the OP, and the question that i put forward. You may be different than others of your faith, but explain the others.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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11/1/2010 8:54:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 7:42:25 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/1/2010 7:06:18 AM, innomen wrote:

Nothing to them? Even the most liberal Jews go to Israel for bah mitzvahs when they can. I'm not so sure it means "nothing" to them. Also, living with reprisals is nothing new for Jews.

And they would probably do so if the Ottoman Empire still existed, it is still their holy land, and it is holy not because of Israel but indeed inspite of it.

One would think that it would still hold some special meaning as a Jewish state, the only Jewish state in the world. It is however, at massive odds with the current liberal agenda.
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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11/1/2010 9:07:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 8:52:58 AM, innomen wrote:
At 11/1/2010 7:36:59 AM, gavin.ogden wrote:
I really like this topic. I am a Jew, and recently voted republican for the first time in my life. Both my parents vote Democrat, as does my sister and the rest of my family. First let me start by saying I grew up in a very "liberal" home. By liberal, I do not mean politically, but literally. I was taught pretty much to look around and see things for myself. I did not have very many rules and was free to make my own mistakes. I have simply found that I'm tired of paying for a bunch of lazy, stupid, and complacent people with my tax dollars. I have worked hard my whole life at everything I've done to get to point I'm at today. Why should I GIVE almost HALF what I EARNED to a cause that I wholeheartedly disagree with?
I do not call myself liberal or conservative, but as far as MY money is concerned, I have to go with the plan allows me to keep it, or at least contribute my share to a cause I favor. A little work ethic would go a long way in this country...wait, I think that is the whole point of the American dream. What has been lost in the American dream? If you want the happiness and wealth this country has to offer, it is there for the taking with a lot of hard work and doing the right thing. My family will continue to vote liberal, but from now on, I vote for the candidate who I believe wants the best for the country as a whole.

You're not really addressing the OP, and the question that i put forward. You may be different than others of your faith, but explain the others.

If a child is raised to believe something , whether it be political, religious, or even certain bigotries, they are likely to continue the trend. I believe, also that many Jews feel a certain empathy for the less fortunate based on their own experiences of anti semetism and that of generations past. I am not one of those people, but I know many.
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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11/1/2010 7:47:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/1/2010 7:00:42 PM, Walrasian_Equilibrium wrote:
All peoples are better off under capitalism, and all peoples demonstrate a preference for socialism to some degree. Why single out the Jews?

Because Jews are the topic...HAHA. Jews DO vote liberal most of the time and it seems counterintuitive to vote that way if you are well off. This topic is trying to figure out why many Jews who are well off vote liberal. Great topic. I'm Jewish, and I don't even know for sure. I don't think anybody does...