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On Muslim Refugees

Objectivity
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2/4/2016 2:56:35 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
I am torn on the situation, but I need to hear from the left on this because there is one thing I find deeply troubling, and that is that any time someone on this forum points out that muslim refugees are disproportionately committing crime, sexually assaulting women, etc. they just mock the person or laugh them off. My question is what should we do about this refugee crime wave? I think it is a good thing that countries are taking in these refugees but we can't ignore the fact that they are committing crimes and harming citizens or laugh it off, or as one german protester very stupidly said "I prefer rapists to racists" so what should we do?
Greyparrot
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2/4/2016 3:01:33 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/4/2016 2:56:35 PM, Objectivity wrote:
I am torn on the situation, but I need to hear from the left on this because there is one thing I find deeply troubling, and that is that any time someone on this forum points out that muslim refugees are disproportionately committing crime, sexually assaulting women, etc. they just mock the person or laugh them off. My question is what should we do about this refugee crime wave? I think it is a good thing that countries are taking in these refugees but we can't ignore the fact that they are committing crimes and harming citizens or laugh it off, or as one german protester very stupidly said "I prefer rapists to racists" so what should we do?

How will we ever replace radical Islam with radical Christianity if we don't allow them into our churches on our own soil?
Objectivity
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2/4/2016 3:02:48 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/4/2016 3:01:33 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 2/4/2016 2:56:35 PM, Objectivity wrote:
I am torn on the situation, but I need to hear from the left on this because there is one thing I find deeply troubling, and that is that any time someone on this forum points out that muslim refugees are disproportionately committing crime, sexually assaulting women, etc. they just mock the person or laugh them off. My question is what should we do about this refugee crime wave? I think it is a good thing that countries are taking in these refugees but we can't ignore the fact that they are committing crimes and harming citizens or laugh it off, or as one german protester very stupidly said "I prefer rapists to racists" so what should we do?

How will we ever replace radical Islam with radical Christianity if we don't allow them into our churches on our own soil?

lol, funny but I'm serious
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,237
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2/4/2016 3:06:07 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/4/2016 2:56:35 PM, Objectivity wrote:
I am torn on the situation, but I need to hear from the left on this because there is one thing I find deeply troubling, and that is that any time someone on this forum points out that muslim refugees are disproportionately committing crime, sexually assaulting women, etc. they just mock the person or laugh them off. My question is what should we do about this refugee crime wave? I think it is a good thing that countries are taking in these refugees but we can't ignore the fact that they are committing crimes and harming citizens or laugh it off, or as one german protester very stupidly said "I prefer rapists to racists" so what should we do?

I guess a case by case basis of investigate, evidence gathering, and trial is out of the question?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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Objectivity
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2/4/2016 3:08:47 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/4/2016 3:06:07 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/4/2016 2:56:35 PM, Objectivity wrote:
I am torn on the situation, but I need to hear from the left on this because there is one thing I find deeply troubling, and that is that any time someone on this forum points out that muslim refugees are disproportionately committing crime, sexually assaulting women, etc. they just mock the person or laugh them off. My question is what should we do about this refugee crime wave? I think it is a good thing that countries are taking in these refugees but we can't ignore the fact that they are committing crimes and harming citizens or laugh it off, or as one german protester very stupidly said "I prefer rapists to racists" so what should we do?

I guess a case by case basis of investigate, evidence gathering, and trial is out of the question?

My response to this is twofold

1) Do you believe there is a reason why refugees disproportionately commit crime? If so shouldn't we do something to remedy the issue? Do you believe assimilation at least on a very basic level (adopting the basic values of the country you live in) is important? Or is plurality an absolute good?

2) Should the government always be reactive or should it be able to do proactive things to prevent crime?

I am sorry if I am being difficult but if you are going to present a solution to this crisis I have to be able to buy in to it and when you give one that oversimplifies the problem I can't.
Objectivity
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2/4/2016 3:09:59 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/4/2016 3:06:07 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/4/2016 2:56:35 PM, Objectivity wrote:
I am torn on the situation, but I need to hear from the left on this because there is one thing I find deeply troubling, and that is that any time someone on this forum points out that muslim refugees are disproportionately committing crime, sexually assaulting women, etc. they just mock the person or laugh them off. My question is what should we do about this refugee crime wave? I think it is a good thing that countries are taking in these refugees but we can't ignore the fact that they are committing crimes and harming citizens or laugh it off, or as one german protester very stupidly said "I prefer rapists to racists" so what should we do?

I guess a case by case basis of investigate, evidence gathering, and trial is out of the question?

*pluralism

sorry
Objectivity
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2/4/2016 3:16:24 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
To clarify, sometimes one side of an issue will be so entrenched in their ideology that they will think certain things are not even worthy or a response so they will mock or ridicule the person (like the people who bring up violent crime and refugees), and they don't realize that this looks very bad to people who are neutral on the issue like me. So whether than assuming the pro refugee types think rape and crime is funny, I want to give them a chance to explain their side and what they can do to remedy the problems posed by refugees, because I generally buy in to the idea that we have a moral obligation to help these people out, but not at the cost of harming the host country.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,237
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2/4/2016 3:23:32 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/4/2016 3:08:47 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/4/2016 3:06:07 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/4/2016 2:56:35 PM, Objectivity wrote:
I am torn on the situation, but I need to hear from the left on this because there is one thing I find deeply troubling, and that is that any time someone on this forum points out that muslim refugees are disproportionately committing crime, sexually assaulting women, etc. they just mock the person or laugh them off. My question is what should we do about this refugee crime wave? I think it is a good thing that countries are taking in these refugees but we can't ignore the fact that they are committing crimes and harming citizens or laugh it off, or as one german protester very stupidly said "I prefer rapists to racists" so what should we do?

I guess a case by case basis of investigate, evidence gathering, and trial is out of the question?

My response to this is twofold

1) Do you believe there is a reason why refugees disproportionately commit crime?

Yes. Cultural attitudes.

If so shouldn't we do something to remedy the issue?

By attempting to assimilate them, we are. That is pretty diametrically opposite to the idea of allowing one specific culture to remain unchecked.

Do you believe assimilation at least on a very basic level (adopting the basic values of the country you live in) is important? Or is plurality an absolute good?

Adopting cultural norms is a requirement of some one seeking asylum, or refuge. Due to their current station, they (ideally) must accept what cultures they are being sheltered in. Lets call it attempting to be a gracious guest.


2) Should the government always be reactive or should it be able to do proactive things to prevent crime?

Typically, those things include active deterrents, such as an increased police presence. Actually prosecuting crimes even when committed from something hinging around cultural differences act as that. I recall a few countries have adopted outreach classes as well. I am not certain how well the refugee populace took to them, though.

I am sorry if I am being difficult but if you are going to present a solution to this crisis I have to be able to buy in to it and when you give one that oversimplifies the problem I can't.

How does engaging a justice system as it is intended to work over-simplify something? Does a certain grouping of people commit crimes more than another? Yes. Does being a person of said grouping inherently mean you will commit crime? No. In what way do either population get served (refugee and host) by setting up guidelines to handle specifically ONE portion of a population? It immediately inserts more of a stigma than already exists. Prosecute the offenders to the fullest extent of the law. Show the rest of the population that justice exists, and is blind.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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Objectivity
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2/4/2016 3:30:40 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/4/2016 3:23:32 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/4/2016 3:08:47 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/4/2016 3:06:07 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/4/2016 2:56:35 PM, Objectivity wrote:
I am torn on the situation, but I need to hear from the left on this because there is one thing I find deeply troubling, and that is that any time someone on this forum points out that muslim refugees are disproportionately committing crime, sexually assaulting women, etc. they just mock the person or laugh them off. My question is what should we do about this refugee crime wave? I think it is a good thing that countries are taking in these refugees but we can't ignore the fact that they are committing crimes and harming citizens or laugh it off, or as one german protester very stupidly said "I prefer rapists to racists" so what should we do?

I guess a case by case basis of investigate, evidence gathering, and trial is out of the question?

My response to this is twofold

1) Do you believe there is a reason why refugees disproportionately commit crime?

Yes. Cultural attitudes.

OK good we're getting somewhere

If so shouldn't we do something to remedy the issue?

By attempting to assimilate them, we are. That is pretty diametrically opposite to the idea of allowing one specific culture to remain unchecked.

Okay, I agree that will definitely help, at least you buy in to the fact that assimilation is important, i know a lot of people who will claim it is racist/culturally imperialist etc.

Do you believe assimilation at least on a very basic level (adopting the basic values of the country you live in) is important? Or is plurality an absolute good?

Adopting cultural norms is a requirement of some one seeking asylum, or refuge. Due to their current station, they (ideally) must accept what cultures they are being sheltered in. Lets call it attempting to be a gracious guest.

OK good, I agree.


2) Should the government always be reactive or should it be able to do proactive things to prevent crime?

Typically, those things include active deterrents, such as an increased police presence. Actually prosecuting crimes even when committed from something hinging around cultural differences act as that. I recall a few countries have adopted outreach classes as well. I am not certain how well the refugee populace took to them, though.

That is a step in the right direction, should we put certain requirements on staying in the host country? (i.e attempting to learn the language, actively seeking a job, etc.)

I am sorry if I am being difficult but if you are going to present a solution to this crisis I have to be able to buy in to it and when you give one that oversimplifies the problem I can't.

How does engaging a justice system as it is intended to work over-simplify something? Does a certain grouping of people commit crimes more than another? Yes. Does being a person of said grouping inherently mean you will commit crime? No. In what way do either population get served (refugee and host) by setting up guidelines to handle specifically ONE portion of a population? It immediately inserts more of a stigma than already exists. Prosecute the offenders to the fullest extent of the law. Show the rest of the population that justice exists, and is blind.

I agree this is all important but you just acknowledged yourself that we should and can do more than just take reactive measures to crime, also I am not saying being a part of one group inherently makes you criminal just because the group you belong to is disproportionately criminal, but I think I'd be correct in saying we both agree crime is an effect of various different things, things we could be trying to remedy so that these people can become functioning members of their host country whether than prisoners.
Objectivity
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2/4/2016 3:33:17 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/4/2016 3:30:40 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/4/2016 3:23:32 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/4/2016 3:08:47 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/4/2016 3:06:07 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/4/2016 2:56:35 PM, Objectivity wrote:
I am torn on the situation, but I need to hear from the left on this because there is one thing I find deeply troubling, and that is that any time someone on this forum points out that muslim refugees are disproportionately committing crime, sexually assaulting women, etc. they just mock the person or laugh them off. My question is what should we do about this refugee crime wave? I think it is a good thing that countries are taking in these refugees but we can't ignore the fact that they are committing crimes and harming citizens or laugh it off, or as one german protester very stupidly said "I prefer rapists to racists" so what should we do?

I guess a case by case basis of investigate, evidence gathering, and trial is out of the question?

My response to this is twofold

1) Do you believe there is a reason why refugees disproportionately commit crime?

Yes. Cultural attitudes.

OK good we're getting somewhere

If so shouldn't we do something to remedy the issue?

By attempting to assimilate them, we are. That is pretty diametrically opposite to the idea of allowing one specific culture to remain unchecked.

Okay, I agree that will definitely help, at least you buy in to the fact that assimilation is important, i know a lot of people who will claim it is racist/culturally imperialist etc.

Do you believe assimilation at least on a very basic level (adopting the basic values of the country you live in) is important? Or is plurality an absolute good?

Adopting cultural norms is a requirement of some one seeking asylum, or refuge. Due to their current station, they (ideally) must accept what cultures they are being sheltered in. Lets call it attempting to be a gracious guest.

OK good, I agree.


2) Should the government always be reactive or should it be able to do proactive things to prevent crime?

Typically, those things include active deterrents, such as an increased police presence. Actually prosecuting crimes even when committed from something hinging around cultural differences act as that. I recall a few countries have adopted outreach classes as well. I am not certain how well the refugee populace took to them, though.

That is a step in the right direction, should we put certain requirements on staying in the host country? (i.e attempting to learn the language, actively seeking a job, etc.)

I am sorry if I am being difficult but if you are going to present a solution to this crisis I have to be able to buy in to it and when you give one that oversimplifies the problem I can't.

How does engaging a justice system as it is intended to work over-simplify something? Does a certain grouping of people commit crimes more than another? Yes. Does being a person of said grouping inherently mean you will commit crime? No. In what way do either population get served (refugee and host) by setting up guidelines to handle specifically ONE portion of a population? It immediately inserts more of a stigma than already exists. Prosecute the offenders to the fullest extent of the law. Show the rest of the population that justice exists, and is blind.

I agree this is all important but you just acknowledged yourself that we should and can do more than just take reactive measures to crime, also I am not saying being a part of one group inherently makes you criminal just because the group you belong to is disproportionately criminal, but I think I'd be correct in saying we both agree crime is an effect of various different things, things we could be trying to remedy so that these people can become functioning members of their host country whether than prisoners.

*rather
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,237
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2/4/2016 4:43:54 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
I am torn on the situation, but I need to hear from the left on this because there is one thing I find deeply troubling, and that is that any time someone on this forum points out that muslim refugees are disproportionately committing crime, sexually assaulting women, etc. they just mock the person or laugh them off. My question is what should we do about this refugee crime wave? I think it is a good thing that countries are taking in these refugees but we can't ignore the fact that they are committing crimes and harming citizens or laugh it off, or as one german protester very stupidly said "I prefer rapists to racists" so what should we do?

I guess a case by case basis of investigate, evidence gathering, and trial is out of the question?

My response to this is twofold

1) Do you believe there is a reason why refugees disproportionately commit crime?

Yes. Cultural attitudes.

OK good we're getting somewhere

If so shouldn't we do something to remedy the issue?

By attempting to assimilate them, we are. That is pretty diametrically opposite to the idea of allowing one specific culture to remain unchecked.

Okay, I agree that will definitely help, at least you buy in to the fact that assimilation is important, i know a lot of people who will claim it is racist/culturally imperialist etc.

Do you believe assimilation at least on a very basic level (adopting the basic values of the country you live in) is important? Or is plurality an absolute good?

Adopting cultural norms is a requirement of some one seeking asylum, or refuge. Due to their current station, they (ideally) must accept what cultures they are being sheltered in. Lets call it attempting to be a gracious guest.

OK good, I agree.


2) Should the government always be reactive or should it be able to do proactive things to prevent crime?

Typically, those things include active deterrents, such as an increased police presence. Actually prosecuting crimes even when committed from something hinging around cultural differences act as that. I recall a few countries have adopted outreach classes as well. I am not certain how well the refugee populace took to them, though.

That is a step in the right direction, should we put certain requirements on staying in the host country? (i.e attempting to learn the language, actively seeking a job, etc.)

Beyond what is socially needed(job for food/rent etc), I don't see as to why that should be required. It would be the refugee's discretion as to how entrenched and how fast they would like to be involved. Trying to put myself in all of the above's shoes, that is the nature of the beast of assimilation, certain things WILL happen if the refugee in question has a genuine desire to be in their new locale as opposed to "just passing through".

I am sorry if I am being difficult but if you are going to present a solution to this crisis I have to be able to buy in to it and when you give one that oversimplifies the problem I can't.

How does engaging a justice system as it is intended to work over-simplify something? Does a certain grouping of people commit crimes more than another? Yes. Does being a person of said grouping inherently mean you will commit crime? No. In what way do either population get served (refugee and host) by setting up guidelines to handle specifically ONE portion of a population? It immediately inserts more of a stigma than already exists. Prosecute the offenders to the fullest extent of the law. Show the rest of the population that justice exists, and is blind.

I agree this is all important but you just acknowledged yourself that we should and can do more than just take reactive measures to crime,

That, however, would deter all crime, and not be specifically directed to "refugee" crime.

also I am not saying being a part of one group inherently makes you criminal just because the group you belong to is disproportionately criminal, but I think I'd be correct in saying we both agree crime is an effect of various different things, things we could be trying to remedy so that these people can become functioning members of their host country whether than prisoners.

Absolutely, but in targeting some one (refugees) we get complications. Appreciating the people coming in as want-to-be members of society by enforcement (not creation) of rules and regs, to me, is the best way to go about that, though granted its because I am not sure how well the outreach worked as mentioned above. The only easy (though socially cruel) way I can think of speeding up the process would be to break up non-familial groups, and spread them across the host country. In the US, assuming the point of entry was New York, immediate steps are taken for placement in Arizona, California, Texes, etc. Responsibility to assimilate becomes assumed on a personal level, rather than diffused to the group as a whole.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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Skepsikyma
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2/4/2016 10:43:43 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/4/2016 3:16:24 PM, Objectivity wrote:
To clarify, sometimes one side of an issue will be so entrenched in their ideology that they will think certain things are not even worthy or a response so they will mock or ridicule the person (like the people who bring up violent crime and refugees), and they don't realize that this looks very bad to people who are neutral on the issue like me. So whether than assuming the pro refugee types think rape and crime is funny, I want to give them a chance to explain their side and what they can do to remedy the problems posed by refugees, because I generally buy in to the idea that we have a moral obligation to help these people out, but not at the cost of harming the host country.

SEC provides a big hurdle, as it does with most immigration. So does stigma itself. This is actually pretty typical: a maligned, impoverished migrant wave clusters into insular communities, and criminal behavior intensifies within that space. One of the best remedies is to actually avoid communitarianism: take people at a steady trickle, spread them out evenly, and then allow the education system to assimilate the children into American culture. Don't just dump them in ghettos.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
be_diligent
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2/4/2016 10:54:24 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/4/2016 2:56:35 PM, Objectivity wrote:
I am torn on the situation, but I need to hear from the left on this because there is one thing I find deeply troubling, and that is that any time someone on this forum points out that muslim refugees are disproportionately committing crime, sexually assaulting women, etc. they just mock the person or laugh them off. My question is what should we do about this refugee crime wave? I think it is a good thing that countries are taking in these refugees but we can't ignore the fact that they are committing crimes and harming citizens or laugh it off, or as one german protester very stupidly said "I prefer rapists to racists" so what should we do?

Wow, where did you find that quote?

That's pretty much the wave of things these days. Take a stand against what's wrong, and get called a racist. And that's seem as being worse then being a rapist?

Political correctness has gone too far. Seriously....

It's one thing to be a outright racist, it's another thing to stand up for what is right and be wrongly called a racist.

Everything seems backwards, you know?

Like calling good evil and evil good...I wonder if that rings any bells for anyone?
be_diligent
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2/4/2016 10:56:03 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/4/2016 10:54:24 PM, be_diligent wrote:
At 2/4/2016 2:56:35 PM, Objectivity wrote:
I am torn on the situation, but I need to hear from the left on this because there is one thing I find deeply troubling, and that is that any time someone on this forum points out that muslim refugees are disproportionately committing crime, sexually assaulting women, etc. they just mock the person or laugh them off. My question is what should we do about this refugee crime wave? I think it is a good thing that countries are taking in these refugees but we can't ignore the fact that they are committing crimes and harming citizens or laugh it off, or as one german protester very stupidly said "I prefer rapists to racists" so what should we do?

Wow, where did you find that quote?

That's pretty much the wave of things these days. Take a stand against what's wrong, and get called a racist. And that's seen as being worse then being a rapist?

Political correctness has gone too far. Seriously....

It's one thing to be a outright racist, it's another thing to stand up for what is right and be wrongly called a racist.

Everything seems backwards, you know?

Like calling good evil and evil good...I wonder if that rings any bells for anyone?

Had to fix a typo...
Midnight1131
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2/5/2016 12:56:11 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/4/2016 11:13:09 PM, listenthink wrote:
Compare the number of refugees doing crimes to white males doing crimes.

Or more accurately compare the % of refugees with the % of non-refugee immigrants.
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Buddamoose
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2/5/2016 12:57:33 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/4/2016 10:43:43 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/4/2016 3:16:24 PM, Objectivity wrote:
To clarify, sometimes one side of an issue will be so entrenched in their ideology that they will think certain things are not even worthy or a response so they will mock or ridicule the person (like the people who bring up violent crime and refugees), and they don't realize that this looks very bad to people who are neutral on the issue like me. So whether than assuming the pro refugee types think rape and crime is funny, I want to give them a chance to explain their side and what they can do to remedy the problems posed by refugees, because I generally buy in to the idea that we have a moral obligation to help these people out, but not at the cost of harming the host country.

SEC provides a big hurdle, as it does with most immigration. So does stigma itself. This is actually pretty typical: a maligned, impoverished migrant wave clusters into insular communities, and criminal behavior intensifies within that space. One of the best remedies is to actually avoid communitarianism: take people at a steady trickle, spread them out evenly, and then allow the education system to assimilate the children into American culture. Don't just dump them in ghettos.

This is spot on, and what I believe the U.S. plans to do anyways no? In fact European countries, namely the U.K. have said they want to adopt more of the U.S. standard of immigration in a sense. The melting pot culture, where you learn the language somewhat, ingratiate yourself(take classes) on the laws, government, etc. to learn why it is something that ought to be respected and followed, etc.

There are of course communities in the U.S. from specific locations around the world immigrant wise that flock together, but there is an influx of people outside that culture that go there to do business, experience that culture and the like, so it offsets it somewhat imo. Especially since to do the most business wise, these cultures adopt the language, and attitude in a sense of American culture to attract that patronage even more.

When it comes down to it, we eventually ingratiate these people to the "render unto Caesar what is caesars(importance or paying taxes)", "money makes the world go round(capitalism ftw)" mentality that is the prevalency of U.S. / Western culture. As well as slowly ingratiating them to the rest of the culture through that patronage and thus interaction between the two different cultural groups.

I think it was David Cameron that recently said that the U.K. and Europe as a whole made a mistake in allowing these immigrant groups flock together and keep to themselves. That if having the chance to do it again, they would adopt a similar mentality as the U.S. as they wouldn't be facing some of the issues that they face today.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
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"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

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tajshar2k
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2/5/2016 1:10:36 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/4/2016 2:56:35 PM, Objectivity wrote:
I am torn on the situation, but I need to hear from the left on this because there is one thing I find deeply troubling, and that is that any time someone on this forum points out that muslim refugees are disproportionately committing crime, sexually assaulting women, etc. they just mock the person or laugh them off. My question is what should we do about this refugee crime wave? I think it is a good thing that countries are taking in these refugees but we can't ignore the fact that they are committing crimes and harming citizens or laugh it off, or as one german protester very stupidly said "I prefer rapists to racists" so what should we do?

I feel the same way, I don't really want them here, but at the same time, I do feel sorry and want them to have a 2nd chance a life.

I think we should really ramp up security, and make sure only legit refugees are accepted. Also, I'd prefer we take women and children over men.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
Buddamoose
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2/5/2016 1:12:04 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Plus public education. You hit the issue at the child development level, and within 1 to 2 generations the children are then American, and identify more with Western culture, then they do with their families original culture.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
tajshar2k
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2/5/2016 1:13:10 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 1:12:04 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
Plus public education. You hit the issue at the child development level, and within 1 to 2 generations the children are then American, and identify more with Western culture, then they do with their families original culture.

+1
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
Vox_Veritas
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2/5/2016 2:20:37 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
I would have to say that in the case of Europe there is just barely a majority for the pro-immigrant/refugee side. The dissenters across Europe do number in the tens of millions. Those people did not give their consent for the refugees to enter their country and as such the governments of Europe have every responsibility to protect these people from immigrant rapists.
Ethnic Europeans (that is, whites) should be granted guns and self-defense training. All refugees should be barred from owning guns and refugee communities should be infiltrated by undercover police officers to keep a close eye on them. Once the refugees are gone the guns can be removed from civilian hands.
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Objectivity
Posts: 1,073
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2/5/2016 2:43:11 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/4/2016 10:43:43 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/4/2016 3:16:24 PM, Objectivity wrote:
To clarify, sometimes one side of an issue will be so entrenched in their ideology that they will think certain things are not even worthy or a response so they will mock or ridicule the person (like the people who bring up violent crime and refugees), and they don't realize that this looks very bad to people who are neutral on the issue like me. So whether than assuming the pro refugee types think rape and crime is funny, I want to give them a chance to explain their side and what they can do to remedy the problems posed by refugees, because I generally buy in to the idea that we have a moral obligation to help these people out, but not at the cost of harming the host country.

SEC provides a big hurdle, as it does with most immigration. So does stigma itself. This is actually pretty typical: a maligned, impoverished migrant wave clusters into insular communities, and criminal behavior intensifies within that space. One of the best remedies is to actually avoid communitarianism: take people at a steady trickle, spread them out evenly, and then allow the education system to assimilate the children into American culture. Don't just dump them in ghettos.

These are all good points, I think what Obama wants to do right now reflects that and its one of his policies I support.
Objectivity
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2/5/2016 2:45:51 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 1:10:36 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 2/4/2016 2:56:35 PM, Objectivity wrote:
I am torn on the situation, but I need to hear from the left on this because there is one thing I find deeply troubling, and that is that any time someone on this forum points out that muslim refugees are disproportionately committing crime, sexually assaulting women, etc. they just mock the person or laugh them off. My question is what should we do about this refugee crime wave? I think it is a good thing that countries are taking in these refugees but we can't ignore the fact that they are committing crimes and harming citizens or laugh it off, or as one german protester very stupidly said "I prefer rapists to racists" so what should we do?

I feel the same way, I don't really want them here, but at the same time, I do feel sorry and want them to have a 2nd chance a life.

I think we should really ramp up security, and make sure only legit refugees are accepted. Also, I'd prefer we take women and children over men.

Agreed about ramping up security, we should be taking more legal immigrants and refugees but we need to take more steps to secure the borders so the people we do take are coming legally and that we know who they are, and that they want to be here for reasons other than money (i.e they don't despise what we stand for)
Reformist
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2/5/2016 2:46:48 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Actually no

If we look at france the crime rate specifically for muslims is very low. So low that even communist parties in France are commiting more violent crimes than muslims.

Conservatives love to take rare instances or instances that are not the norm, compile them all up, and make those scenarios look like the majority

We created the problem of ISIS by invading Iraq and we sure as hell cant practically kill refugees because we are "scared"
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Objectivity
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2/5/2016 2:47:06 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 2:20:37 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
I would have to say that in the case of Europe there is just barely a majority for the pro-immigrant/refugee side. The dissenters across Europe do number in the tens of millions. Those people did not give their consent for the refugees to enter their country and as such the governments of Europe have every responsibility to protect these people from immigrant rapists.
Ethnic Europeans (that is, whites) should be granted guns and self-defense training. All refugees should be barred from owning guns and refugee communities should be infiltrated by undercover police officers to keep a close eye on them. Once the refugees are gone the guns can be removed from civilian hands.

Interesting but idk if this is the best solution, I tend to agree with others here that the american model of immigration (before we started having porous borders, that is) is the best.
tajshar2k
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2/5/2016 2:50:41 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 2:45:51 AM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/5/2016 1:10:36 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 2/4/2016 2:56:35 PM, Objectivity wrote:
I am torn on the situation, but I need to hear from the left on this because there is one thing I find deeply troubling, and that is that any time someone on this forum points out that muslim refugees are disproportionately committing crime, sexually assaulting women, etc. they just mock the person or laugh them off. My question is what should we do about this refugee crime wave? I think it is a good thing that countries are taking in these refugees but we can't ignore the fact that they are committing crimes and harming citizens or laugh it off, or as one german protester very stupidly said "I prefer rapists to racists" so what should we do?

I feel the same way, I don't really want them here, but at the same time, I do feel sorry and want them to have a 2nd chance a life.

I think we should really ramp up security, and make sure only legit refugees are accepted. Also, I'd prefer we take women and children over men.

Agreed about ramping up security, we should be taking more legal immigrants and refugees but we need to take more steps to secure the borders so the people we do take are coming legally and that we know who they are, and that they want to be here for reasons other than money (i.e they don't despise what we stand for)

Unfortunate truth is that muslims are among the worst when it comes to assimilating. Which is why I'd prefer taking children over grown men.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
Objectivity
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2/5/2016 2:57:34 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 2:50:41 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 2/5/2016 2:45:51 AM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/5/2016 1:10:36 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 2/4/2016 2:56:35 PM, Objectivity wrote:
I am torn on the situation, but I need to hear from the left on this because there is one thing I find deeply troubling, and that is that any time someone on this forum points out that muslim refugees are disproportionately committing crime, sexually assaulting women, etc. they just mock the person or laugh them off. My question is what should we do about this refugee crime wave? I think it is a good thing that countries are taking in these refugees but we can't ignore the fact that they are committing crimes and harming citizens or laugh it off, or as one german protester very stupidly said "I prefer rapists to racists" so what should we do?

I feel the same way, I don't really want them here, but at the same time, I do feel sorry and want them to have a 2nd chance a life.

I think we should really ramp up security, and make sure only legit refugees are accepted. Also, I'd prefer we take women and children over men.

Agreed about ramping up security, we should be taking more legal immigrants and refugees but we need to take more steps to secure the borders so the people we do take are coming legally and that we know who they are, and that they want to be here for reasons other than money (i.e they don't despise what we stand for)

Unfortunate truth is that muslims are among the worst when it comes to assimilating. Which is why I'd prefer taking children over grown men.

This is somewhat true of my own experience with muslims, I live in an area where there is a very high lebanese population and all the people I go to school with are very well adjusted and not at risk or the types you see on european news committing crime. I think America is unique in that we have the best environment for assimilation since we have programs available for first generation immigrants and are a very pluralistic society. Like at my school all first generation immigrants are required to take a class called English as a Second Language (ESL). I think that we should take the immigrants that believe in what we stand for, not the ones that are just escaping their sh*thole so they can try to promote the same values that turned their nation in to what they are escaping (bigotry, theocracy, etc.) I think that the american value system transcends ethnicity because all it requires it really requires is respect for other people's ways of life. So I don't necessarily think we should restrict what gender or age people come in, we should try to pick the people who have our ideas or share our dream.
imabench
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2/5/2016 3:25:04 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/4/2016 2:56:35 PM, Objectivity wrote:
I am torn on the situation, but I need to hear from the left on this because there is one thing I find deeply troubling, and that is that any time someone on this forum points out that muslim refugees are disproportionately committing crime, sexually assaulting women, etc. they just mock the person or laugh them off. My question is what should we do about this refugee crime wave? I think it is a good thing that countries are taking in these refugees but we can't ignore the fact that they are committing crimes and harming citizens or laugh it off, or as one german protester very stupidly said "I prefer rapists to racists" so what should we do?

One of the best things to do which the US is already doing is put a priority on accepting women or children refugees first, and men second.

http://time.com...

In Europe, 62% of all refugees are men, 22% are children, 16% are women. With that makeup, rape and crime becomes more likely since men are more likely to commit crimes than women are.

Of the refugees the US has accepted though, 50% of them are children right off the bat, and of the remaining half is split about 50-50 men and women, coming out to about 25% being men, compared to 62% in Europe

The crime thing with refugees could be more tied to gender than actual religion, so prioritizing young children and women over male refugees would be the smart thing to do in my opinion.
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bballcrook21
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2/5/2016 3:26:29 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
I don't want a single one of those worthless cockroaches in my beautiful Western nations. Keep them contained and nuke them if they spread. Come on now.
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imabench
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2/5/2016 3:31:24 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Also: Throwing in an English-proficiency test for refugees in exchange for laxer screenings could also screen out potential criminals (theoretically) since Syrians who speak English makes them Bilingual, (indicating educated), and also makes it easier for them to integrate into the US, which I imagine would lower the odds of them turning to crime
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
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VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015