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South China Sea Dispute

1harderthanyouthink
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2/5/2016 12:02:42 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
The US should be militarily uninvolved no matter what. Let the other countries settle it themselves.
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bballcrook21
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2/5/2016 12:08:48 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
I agree with Harder. The United States does not need more reasons to become unaligned with China diplomatically. Having a friendship with China is vastly superior than having a friendship with the Philippines.

One can also argue that it's going to take more than involvement in the matter to appease China, and staying neutral might alienate our other allies, such as Japan, the Philippines, and Australia.
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TheFlex
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2/5/2016 1:29:03 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 12:08:48 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
I agree with Harder. The United States does not need more reasons to become unaligned with China diplomatically. Having a friendship with China is vastly superior than having a friendship with the Philippines.

One can also argue that it's going to take more than involvement in the matter to appease China, and staying neutral might alienate our other allies, such as Japan, the Philippines, and Australia.

It's a sticky situation with consequences on both sides of it. Intervention harms ties with China and doing nothing about it (like you've pointed out) would harm ties with Japan. Japan has already taken steps towards showing force against China, they clearly don't like them. Their most recent move of aggression was their government passing a bill authorizing use of their military force with/for their allies against NK/China. They had no problem publicizing and did it to make a statement against NK/China.
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,682
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2/5/2016 3:54:04 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 1:29:03 PM, TheFlex wrote:
Japan has already taken steps towards showing force against China,

Sino-Japan round 3?
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TheFlex
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2/5/2016 4:12:01 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 3:54:04 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/5/2016 1:29:03 PM, TheFlex wrote:
Japan has already taken steps towards showing force against China,

Sino-Japan round 3?

If tensions continue to rise, it's a possibility.
TheFlex
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2/5/2016 4:13:37 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 4:12:01 PM, TheFlex wrote:
At 2/5/2016 3:54:04 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/5/2016 1:29:03 PM, TheFlex wrote:
Japan has already taken steps towards showing force against China,

Sino-Japan round 3?

If tensions continue to rise, it's a possibility.

Especially since Japan's authorized that bill. They don't play. That's a statement of, "We will fight you." vs. "We might fight you." Just give them a good reason.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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2/5/2016 4:16:52 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 4:12:01 PM, TheFlex wrote:
At 2/5/2016 3:54:04 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/5/2016 1:29:03 PM, TheFlex wrote:
Japan has already taken steps towards showing force against China,

Sino-Japan round 3?

If tensions continue to rise, it's a possibility.

When will those silly Japanese and Chinese ever learn. Odds of a catastrophic typhoon in the near future just increased to 100%... pfchchchchch.

I'm just nanking ya chain tho

OK that last one was uncalled for. I need to stop Beijing so facetious.
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TheFlex
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2/5/2016 4:21:22 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 4:16:52 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 2/5/2016 4:12:01 PM, TheFlex wrote:
At 2/5/2016 3:54:04 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/5/2016 1:29:03 PM, TheFlex wrote:
Japan has already taken steps towards showing force against China,

Sino-Japan round 3?

If tensions continue to rise, it's a possibility.

When will those silly Japanese and Chinese ever learn. Odds of a catastrophic typhoon in the near future just increased to 100%... pfchchchchch.

I'm just nanking ya chain tho

OK that last one was uncalled for. I need to stop Beijing so facetious.

It's a situation quite similar, but not as intense, to North Korea and South Korea.
Buddamoose
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2/5/2016 4:32:56 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 4:21:22 PM, TheFlex wrote:
At 2/5/2016 4:16:52 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 2/5/2016 4:12:01 PM, TheFlex wrote:
At 2/5/2016 3:54:04 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/5/2016 1:29:03 PM, TheFlex wrote:
Japan has already taken steps towards showing force against China,

Sino-Japan round 3?

If tensions continue to rise, it's a possibility.

When will those silly Japanese and Chinese ever learn. Odds of a catastrophic typhoon in the near future just increased to 100%... pfchchchchch.

I'm just nanking ya chain tho

OK that last one was uncalled for. I need to stop Beijing so facetious.

It's a situation quite similar, but not as intense, to North Korea and South Korea.

I'm fully aware that China and Japan are not on the best of terms. China still holds a great amount of resentment over WW2... I mentioned Nanking, and tbh, when you call the invasion and occupation of a city a "rape" that's some heavy evil sh!t going on
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
PointBlunt
Posts: 11
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2/5/2016 4:49:50 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
It's an interesting question. In principle, I believe that the US should keep out of it. Unfortunately, principles rarely offer pragmatism. There's many ways of looking at this issue, I'll try to describe my view cogently....it's a big topic as it potentially affects everyone globally, has history and contentious considerations of self interest for individuals, businesses small and large, and nations.

While China was "communist" and used little to no capitalist methods the USA was comfortable technologically as capitalism drives the economy which drives technological advancements, ensuring economic, technological and the consequential military superiority. In political ideologically they were directly opposed, but in every other manner, the USA was comfortable. The USA did what it wanted to do, while China kept to itself and Asian neighbors. Neither were competing for the same resources, as China wasn't much better than a large scale organized subsistence existence compared to the Western economy, driven by the USA.

Now, Let's look at a few approximate numbers. The Western economy, depending upon which European countries you include, but exclude Russia, is a roughly 2 billion people, with America being about 300 million alone, as the biggest. Then add Australia, New Zealand and Western European countries, and then think of how many sovereign countries that is and subsequent differing trade agreements, excises and variant laws and transport logistics. China is nearly 2 billion people under one sovereign identity, laws and land mass. It took the Western Empire a few hundred years of industrialization to get to the technological level we are at today. This technological level is basically China's entry point into capitalism.

That means China is now an opposing empire for the same resources as we are, and in massive quantities. It means the economic, technological and military edge that the USA and West has enjoyed, is now under threat from a power house empire. Thus the USA (politically) believes it has an interest in the affairs of China and their interests in anything that resembles expansionism, despite the fact of course, that the USA has expanded its sphere of influence through NATO to put "the squeeze" on both China and Russia, for basically the same reasons of limiting their capability to expand.

However, let's now look at what Big Business has to do in this equation. Manufacturing has been moving to Asia with more to go, due to the now friendlier political climate between China and the West. It's going there for the cheaper labour, land, taxes, and more importantly for big business, a blossoming new market of approximately 4 billion people and growing in the region, if we include India, all on the same land mass, compared to saturated markets of 2 billion people in the West, scattered around the globe (thus the "free trade" agreements, Trans Atlantic and Trans Pacific Pacts). Though this creates a financial inter-connectivity between China and the West, the only winner is China while in the long term the West must be the loser, or invent new ways to employ skilled and unskilled labour to maintain the middle class. Of course the other winner is the businesses that have moved to Asia, who only grow larger, wealthier and even more influential in governments everywhere (but that's another issue).

China's middle class (with the rest of Asia poised to follow) is growing, while the West's middle class is dramatically shrinking. It's the middle class that are the consumers that drive an economy. This scenario can only worsen over time for the West, forcing unemployment to rise and it could rise dramatically as more manufacturing leaves. This places pressure on wages and salaries from the middle and working classes, as there are more people in line for every job, forcing technological and military superiority to diminish and be overtaken by China, as the Western economy slows and unemployment continues to rise with less people earning less money and in turn, paying less taxes.

All that doom and gloom said, the most appropriate acronym in the English language, MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) prevents governments from getting too stupid in their aggressive intentions. So direct full scale conflict is unlikely. There's no real point in the USA pushing the issue too much as the economic boat (manufacturing) has sailed and war only suits short term solutions for particular business interests, not overall economic or national interests. And kinda ironically, China holds a vast amount of the USA's debt, so there are interested parties including government in China that certainly wouldn't like to see the American economy fail or for there to be direct conflict.

I haven't answered the question really, just floated a few issues out there. Philosophically, no, the USA should stay out of it. Pragmatically, there's no real point to interfere due to trade ties and multi-national business interests like car manufacturing moving there. Am I a citizen of the world or a citizen of a nation or empire? Altruistically, a citizen of the world, but to be that, I need to know that about 7-8 billion other people see it the same way, and my observation is that most don't see it that way, so pragmatically, I have to view it as a citizen of an empire in the throws of its inevitable demise, concerned that some cowboy is going to yell "Yahoo!" and push a button.
imabench
Posts: 21,219
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2/5/2016 5:33:42 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/4/2016 9:03:14 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
What are your thoughts on the South China Sea, and should the US get involved with the issue?

Its an airbase being built on artificial islands well south of what would be considered spitting distance of Chinese borders http://static4.uk.businessinsider.com... but the fact that its located so far away from China's biggest enemy in the region, Taiwan, makes it look just like a move by China to expand its influence in the area.

There is no strategic value to the Islands that would cause diplomatic strains like the Cuban Missile Crisis did in the 1960's so its not a gigantic big deal. The Island is being built in the South China Sea, not just off the coast of Japan or Hawaii..... The best thing for the US to do would be to 'make a deal' with China where the US wont make a big stink about it at international conferences or whatever, and China in exchange will 'concede' something to the US, just to put the incident in the past and not risk causing a new cold war to break out, which neither side wants
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Vox_Veritas
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2/5/2016 8:52:15 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 8:31:59 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/5/2016 2:52:41 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Full involvement

What makes you say that?

If China is going to become the global power, it must be taught to respect international law. There is no excuse for what China is doing now and it is happening at the expense of its neighbors. China's actions now are perhaps similar to pre-WWII Japan (which invaded Manchuria and China) and being the top dog should not be an excuse for what China is doing.
Also, taking such a stance against China is helping boost the U.S. military's popularity in East Asia.
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triangle.128k
Posts: 3,646
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2/5/2016 9:09:26 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 8:52:15 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/5/2016 8:31:59 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/5/2016 2:52:41 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Full involvement

What makes you say that?

If China is going to become the global power, it must be taught to respect international law. There is no excuse for what China is doing now and it is happening at the expense of its neighbors. China's actions now are perhaps similar to pre-WWII Japan (which invaded Manchuria and China) and being the top dog should not be an excuse for what China is doing.
Also, taking such a stance against China is helping boost the U.S. military's popularity in East Asia.

There's no excuse for what any other countries are doing with the conflict either. Why is China the bad guy if other countries are doing the same thing with claiming the south China sea?

China is far more isolationist than we are, if anything, they respect international law more than we have.
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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2/5/2016 9:13:24 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 9:09:26 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/5/2016 8:52:15 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/5/2016 8:31:59 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/5/2016 2:52:41 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Full involvement

What makes you say that?

If China is going to become the global power, it must be taught to respect international law. There is no excuse for what China is doing now and it is happening at the expense of its neighbors. China's actions now are perhaps similar to pre-WWII Japan (which invaded Manchuria and China) and being the top dog should not be an excuse for what China is doing.
Also, taking such a stance against China is helping boost the U.S. military's popularity in East Asia.

There's no excuse for what any other countries are doing with the conflict either. Why is China the bad guy if other countries are doing the same thing with claiming the south China sea?

China has no legitimate claim to the land. http://ichef.bbci.co.uk...
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,074
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2/5/2016 9:17:09 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 9:09:26 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/5/2016 8:52:15 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/5/2016 8:31:59 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/5/2016 2:52:41 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Full involvement

What makes you say that?

If China is going to become the global power, it must be taught to respect international law. There is no excuse for what China is doing now and it is happening at the expense of its neighbors. China's actions now are perhaps similar to pre-WWII Japan (which invaded Manchuria and China) and being the top dog should not be an excuse for what China is doing.
Also, taking such a stance against China is helping boost the U.S. military's popularity in East Asia.

There's no excuse for what any other countries are doing with the conflict either. Why is China the bad guy if other countries are doing the same thing with claiming the south China sea?

China is far more isolationist than we are, if anything, they respect international law more than we have.

The other nations have made fairly small claims to the South China Sea. Island reclamation projects by other nations in the region have been miniscule in comparison to the amount of land China has reclaimed. Once report says that the South China Sea will become a "Chinese lake" by 2030.
To say that China has been more isolationist than us in the past is a truism, seeing as how China hasn't *in its 5000 year history* had the capacity for global power projection. The U.S. may have violated international law at times (virtually always for a good reason), but what it brings and has brought to the table since 1941 outweighs that considerably.
In any case, even if the U.S. truly were the Great Satan that would in no way negate what China is doing now.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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triangle.128k
Posts: 3,646
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2/5/2016 9:17:17 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 9:13:24 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 2/5/2016 9:09:26 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/5/2016 8:52:15 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/5/2016 8:31:59 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/5/2016 2:52:41 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Full involvement

What makes you say that?

If China is going to become the global power, it must be taught to respect international law. There is no excuse for what China is doing now and it is happening at the expense of its neighbors. China's actions now are perhaps similar to pre-WWII Japan (which invaded Manchuria and China) and being the top dog should not be an excuse for what China is doing.
Also, taking such a stance against China is helping boost the U.S. military's popularity in East Asia.

There's no excuse for what any other countries are doing with the conflict either. Why is China the bad guy if other countries are doing the same thing with claiming the south China sea?

China has no legitimate claim to the land. http://ichef.bbci.co.uk...

Neither do any of these other countries: https://lawfare.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com...

Yet China gets all the blame...
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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2/5/2016 9:19:40 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 9:17:17 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/5/2016 9:13:24 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 2/5/2016 9:09:26 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/5/2016 8:52:15 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/5/2016 8:31:59 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/5/2016 2:52:41 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Full involvement

What makes you say that?

If China is going to become the global power, it must be taught to respect international law. There is no excuse for what China is doing now and it is happening at the expense of its neighbors. China's actions now are perhaps similar to pre-WWII Japan (which invaded Manchuria and China) and being the top dog should not be an excuse for what China is doing.
Also, taking such a stance against China is helping boost the U.S. military's popularity in East Asia.

There's no excuse for what any other countries are doing with the conflict either. Why is China the bad guy if other countries are doing the same thing with claiming the south China sea?

China has no legitimate claim to the land. http://ichef.bbci.co.uk...

Neither do any of these other countries: https://lawfare.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com...

Yet China gets all the blame...

To say the Malaysian and Filipino claim is on China's level is ridiculous.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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triangle.128k
Posts: 3,646
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2/5/2016 9:29:43 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 9:19:40 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 2/5/2016 9:17:17 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/5/2016 9:13:24 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 2/5/2016 9:09:26 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/5/2016 8:52:15 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/5/2016 8:31:59 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/5/2016 2:52:41 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Full involvement

What makes you say that?

If China is going to become the global power, it must be taught to respect international law. There is no excuse for what China is doing now and it is happening at the expense of its neighbors. China's actions now are perhaps similar to pre-WWII Japan (which invaded Manchuria and China) and being the top dog should not be an excuse for what China is doing.
Also, taking such a stance against China is helping boost the U.S. military's popularity in East Asia.

There's no excuse for what any other countries are doing with the conflict either. Why is China the bad guy if other countries are doing the same thing with claiming the south China sea?

China has no legitimate claim to the land. http://ichef.bbci.co.uk...

Neither do any of these other countries: https://lawfare.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com...

Yet China gets all the blame...

To say the Malaysian and Filipino claim is on China's level is ridiculous.

True, but it doesn't mean other countries aren't at fault. Vietnam's claim is also pretty ridiculous. The issue isn't really our problem anyhows, it's better to let international law deal with things like these.

Involvement would create more tensions between the US and China. Since we're heavily relient on China economically, it's better to be on good terms and not get involved.