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Adoption in Islam is prohibited.

TBR
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2/5/2016 10:49:37 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
New bit of information from our resident expert in all things Islam. This, to me, has big impact on the common refrain from pro-life that "there is always adoption".

What does this mean to you? Does it change thinking in any way regarding that line of thinking from pro-life? There is a pro-lifer who says she is (or was I don't know) Muslim. She has used the "always adoption" line. I think it is strange.

Thoughts?
mc9
Posts: 1,039
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2/6/2016 12:48:00 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 10:49:37 PM, TBR wrote:
New bit of information from our resident expert in all things Islam. This, to me, has big impact on the common refrain from pro-life that "there is always adoption".

What does this mean to you? Does it change thinking in any way regarding that line of thinking from pro-life? There is a pro-lifer who says she is (or was I don't know) Muslim. She has used the "always adoption" line. I think it is strange.

Thoughts?

This should go in the religion forum but I can see why you put it here, things can never stay clean there.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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2/6/2016 12:51:29 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 12:48:00 AM, mc9 wrote:
At 2/5/2016 10:49:37 PM, TBR wrote:
New bit of information from our resident expert in all things Islam. This, to me, has big impact on the common refrain from pro-life that "there is always adoption".

What does this mean to you? Does it change thinking in any way regarding that line of thinking from pro-life? There is a pro-lifer who says she is (or was I don't know) Muslim. She has used the "always adoption" line. I think it is strange.

Thoughts?

This should go in the religion forum but I can see why you put it here, things can never stay clean there.

Yea, I considered that. I really want to discuss it as it related to the abortion discussion, and so... Well, it does fit with politics to me, but I admit your reasons were why I didn't put it in religion.
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,384
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2/6/2016 12:59:47 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 12:51:29 AM, TBR wrote:
At 2/6/2016 12:48:00 AM, mc9 wrote:
At 2/5/2016 10:49:37 PM, TBR wrote:
New bit of information from our resident expert in all things Islam. This, to me, has big impact on the common refrain from pro-life that "there is always adoption".

What does this mean to you? Does it change thinking in any way regarding that line of thinking from pro-life? There is a pro-lifer who says she is (or was I don't know) Muslim. She has used the "always adoption" line. I think it is strange.

Thoughts?

This should go in the religion forum but I can see why you put it here, things can never stay clean there.

Yea, I considered that. I really want to discuss it as it related to the abortion discussion, and so... Well, it does fit with politics to me, but I admit your reasons were why I didn't put it in religion.

Is their sources for this? Not because I don't believe you, but some guy will dismiss this saying you are lying.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,683
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2/6/2016 1:18:08 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 12:59:47 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 2/6/2016 12:51:29 AM, TBR wrote:
At 2/6/2016 12:48:00 AM, mc9 wrote:
At 2/5/2016 10:49:37 PM, TBR wrote:
New bit of information from our resident expert in all things Islam. This, to me, has big impact on the common refrain from pro-life that "there is always adoption".

What does this mean to you? Does it change thinking in any way regarding that line of thinking from pro-life? There is a pro-lifer who says she is (or was I don't know) Muslim. She has used the "always adoption" line. I think it is strange.

Thoughts?

This should go in the religion forum but I can see why you put it here, things can never stay clean there.

Yea, I considered that. I really want to discuss it as it related to the abortion discussion, and so... Well, it does fit with politics to me, but I admit your reasons were why I didn't put it in religion.

Is their sources for this? Not because I don't believe you, but some guy will dismiss this saying you are lying.

"Islam fully supports the concept of helping the orphan and poor, and taking them under your wings. If there is no one to take care of the orphan and poor children, then this responsibility falls upon the Islamic government. I won"t be wrong in saying that as far as the concept of adoption is concerned, there is no difference between Islam and the West.

However, when we come to the implications and legal consequences of adoption, we find some differences between Islam and the present system in the West."

http://www.al-islam.org...

Are you willing to accept anything that's said on this forum if it goes in line with your biases (or if it's negative towards Islam)?
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,683
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2/6/2016 1:19:03 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 10:49:37 PM, TBR wrote:
New bit of information from our resident expert in all things Islam. This, to me, has big impact on the common refrain from pro-life that "there is always adoption".

What does this mean to you? Does it change thinking in any way regarding that line of thinking from pro-life? There is a pro-lifer who says she is (or was I don't know) Muslim. She has used the "always adoption" line. I think it is strange.

Thoughts?

Citation please?
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,384
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2/6/2016 1:19:28 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:18:08 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 12:59:47 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 2/6/2016 12:51:29 AM, TBR wrote:
At 2/6/2016 12:48:00 AM, mc9 wrote:
At 2/5/2016 10:49:37 PM, TBR wrote:
New bit of information from our resident expert in all things Islam. This, to me, has big impact on the common refrain from pro-life that "there is always adoption".

What does this mean to you? Does it change thinking in any way regarding that line of thinking from pro-life? There is a pro-lifer who says she is (or was I don't know) Muslim. She has used the "always adoption" line. I think it is strange.

Thoughts?

This should go in the religion forum but I can see why you put it here, things can never stay clean there.

Yea, I considered that. I really want to discuss it as it related to the abortion discussion, and so... Well, it does fit with politics to me, but I admit your reasons were why I didn't put it in religion.

Is their sources for this? Not because I don't believe you, but some guy will dismiss this saying you are lying.

"Islam fully supports the concept of helping the orphan and poor, and taking them under your wings. If there is no one to take care of the orphan and poor children, then this responsibility falls upon the Islamic government. I won"t be wrong in saying that as far as the concept of adoption is concerned, there is no difference between Islam and the West.

However, when we come to the implications and legal consequences of adoption, we find some differences between Islam and the present system in the West."

http://www.al-islam.org...

Are you willing to accept anything that's said on this forum if it goes in line with your biases (or if it's negative towards Islam)?

No, I usually trust TBR, since he doesn't lie, but I asked him to provide a source. If I was biased, I wouldn't have bothered to ask him.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,683
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2/6/2016 1:22:38 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:19:28 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:18:08 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 12:59:47 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 2/6/2016 12:51:29 AM, TBR wrote:
At 2/6/2016 12:48:00 AM, mc9 wrote:
At 2/5/2016 10:49:37 PM, TBR wrote:
New bit of information from our resident expert in all things Islam. This, to me, has big impact on the common refrain from pro-life that "there is always adoption".

What does this mean to you? Does it change thinking in any way regarding that line of thinking from pro-life? There is a pro-lifer who says she is (or was I don't know) Muslim. She has used the "always adoption" line. I think it is strange.

Thoughts?

This should go in the religion forum but I can see why you put it here, things can never stay clean there.

Yea, I considered that. I really want to discuss it as it related to the abortion discussion, and so... Well, it does fit with politics to me, but I admit your reasons were why I didn't put it in religion.

Is their sources for this? Not because I don't believe you, but some guy will dismiss this saying you are lying.

"Islam fully supports the concept of helping the orphan and poor, and taking them under your wings. If there is no one to take care of the orphan and poor children, then this responsibility falls upon the Islamic government. I won"t be wrong in saying that as far as the concept of adoption is concerned, there is no difference between Islam and the West.

However, when we come to the implications and legal consequences of adoption, we find some differences between Islam and the present system in the West."

http://www.al-islam.org...

Are you willing to accept anything that's said on this forum if it goes in line with your biases (or if it's negative towards Islam)?

No, I usually trust TBR, since he doesn't lie,

Well, at this point he has blatantly lied.
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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2/6/2016 1:23:25 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:19:03 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/5/2016 10:49:37 PM, TBR wrote:
New bit of information from our resident expert in all things Islam. This, to me, has big impact on the common refrain from pro-life that "there is always adoption".

What does this mean to you? Does it change thinking in any way regarding that line of thinking from pro-life? There is a pro-lifer who says she is (or was I don't know) Muslim. She has used the "always adoption" line. I think it is strange.

Thoughts?

Citation please?

Yea, I would like your thoughts.

Source
http://www.debate.org...
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,683
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2/6/2016 1:26:39 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:23:25 AM, TBR wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:19:03 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/5/2016 10:49:37 PM, TBR wrote:
New bit of information from our resident expert in all things Islam. This, to me, has big impact on the common refrain from pro-life that "there is always adoption".

What does this mean to you? Does it change thinking in any way regarding that line of thinking from pro-life? There is a pro-lifer who says she is (or was I don't know) Muslim. She has used the "always adoption" line. I think it is strange.

Thoughts?

Citation please?

Yea, I would like your thoughts.

Source
http://www.debate.org...

Custody is still allowed after that age, they're just no longer considered a mahram. An age quota for custody is radically different from a prohibition on adoption.
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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2/6/2016 1:29:15 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:26:39 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:23:25 AM, TBR wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:19:03 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/5/2016 10:49:37 PM, TBR wrote:
New bit of information from our resident expert in all things Islam. This, to me, has big impact on the common refrain from pro-life that "there is always adoption".

What does this mean to you? Does it change thinking in any way regarding that line of thinking from pro-life? There is a pro-lifer who says she is (or was I don't know) Muslim. She has used the "always adoption" line. I think it is strange.

Thoughts?

Citation please?

Yea, I would like your thoughts.

Source
http://www.debate.org...

Custody is still allowed after that age, they're just no longer considered a mahram. An age quota for custody is radically different from a prohibition on adoption.

You know. That was the wrong post

http://www.debate.org...
- Adoption in Islam is prohibited. <Yassine>
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,683
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2/6/2016 1:31:47 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:29:15 AM, TBR wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:26:39 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:23:25 AM, TBR wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:19:03 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/5/2016 10:49:37 PM, TBR wrote:
New bit of information from our resident expert in all things Islam. This, to me, has big impact on the common refrain from pro-life that "there is always adoption".

What does this mean to you? Does it change thinking in any way regarding that line of thinking from pro-life? There is a pro-lifer who says she is (or was I don't know) Muslim. She has used the "always adoption" line. I think it is strange.

Thoughts?

Citation please?

Yea, I would like your thoughts.

Source
http://www.debate.org...

Custody is still allowed after that age, they're just no longer considered a mahram. An age quota for custody is radically different from a prohibition on adoption.

You know. That was the wrong post

http://www.debate.org...
- Adoption in Islam is prohibited. <Yassine>

That was your response to Yassine's post, not the same as him stating that Adoption is haram.
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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2/6/2016 1:48:41 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:31:47 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:29:15 AM, TBR wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:26:39 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:23:25 AM, TBR wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:19:03 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/5/2016 10:49:37 PM, TBR wrote:
New bit of information from our resident expert in all things Islam. This, to me, has big impact on the common refrain from pro-life that "there is always adoption".

What does this mean to you? Does it change thinking in any way regarding that line of thinking from pro-life? There is a pro-lifer who says she is (or was I don't know) Muslim. She has used the "always adoption" line. I think it is strange.

Thoughts?

Citation please?

Yea, I would like your thoughts.

Source
http://www.debate.org...

Custody is still allowed after that age, they're just no longer considered a mahram. An age quota for custody is radically different from a prohibition on adoption.

You know. That was the wrong post

http://www.debate.org...
- Adoption in Islam is prohibited. <Yassine>

That was your response to Yassine's post, not the same as him stating that Adoption is haram.

Damn it! No. That is exactly what HE said
http://www.debate.org...

This is the link to the part where HE said it, rather than me responding'
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,683
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2/6/2016 1:59:31 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:48:41 AM, TBR wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:31:47 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:29:15 AM, TBR wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:26:39 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:23:25 AM, TBR wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:19:03 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/5/2016 10:49:37 PM, TBR wrote:
New bit of information from our resident expert in all things Islam. This, to me, has big impact on the common refrain from pro-life that "there is always adoption".

What does this mean to you? Does it change thinking in any way regarding that line of thinking from pro-life? There is a pro-lifer who says she is (or was I don't know) Muslim. She has used the "always adoption" line. I think it is strange.

Thoughts?

Citation please?

Yea, I would like your thoughts.

Source
http://www.debate.org...

Custody is still allowed after that age, they're just no longer considered a mahram. An age quota for custody is radically different from a prohibition on adoption.

You know. That was the wrong post

http://www.debate.org...
- Adoption in Islam is prohibited. <Yassine>

That was your response to Yassine's post, not the same as him stating that Adoption is haram.

Damn it! No. That is exactly what HE said
http://www.debate.org...

This is the link to the part where HE said it, rather than me responding'

I'll just quote Yassine on this one:

" -Permissible =/= unconditional. "

There are few things in the US, or anywhere, where something is considered unconditionally legal.That certainly doesn't make it illegal. Freedom of Movement is considered a right, but is limited when one is arrested, does that make freedom of movement illegal?

Sexual intercourse is legal, yet not between a person in the age of majority and a minor, and certainly not in the scenario where one party is unconesenting. Does that make sex illegal? No.

So where did you get the idea that conditions and rules on adoption somehow makes it illegal or prohibited?
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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2/6/2016 2:05:22 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:59:31 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:48:41 AM, TBR wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:31:47 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:29:15 AM, TBR wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:26:39 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:23:25 AM, TBR wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:19:03 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/5/2016 10:49:37 PM, TBR wrote:
New bit of information from our resident expert in all things Islam. This, to me, has big impact on the common refrain from pro-life that "there is always adoption".

What does this mean to you? Does it change thinking in any way regarding that line of thinking from pro-life? There is a pro-lifer who says she is (or was I don't know) Muslim. She has used the "always adoption" line. I think it is strange.

Thoughts?

Citation please?

Yea, I would like your thoughts.

Source
http://www.debate.org...

Custody is still allowed after that age, they're just no longer considered a mahram. An age quota for custody is radically different from a prohibition on adoption.

You know. That was the wrong post

http://www.debate.org...
- Adoption in Islam is prohibited. <Yassine>

That was your response to Yassine's post, not the same as him stating that Adoption is haram.

Damn it! No. That is exactly what HE said
http://www.debate.org...

This is the link to the part where HE said it, rather than me responding'

I'll just quote Yassine on this one:

" -Permissible =/= unconditional. "

There are few things in the US, or anywhere, where something is considered unconditionally legal.That certainly doesn't make it illegal. Freedom of Movement is considered a right, but is limited when one is arrested, does that make freedom of movement illegal?

Sexual intercourse is legal, yet not between a person in the age of majority and a minor, and certainly not in the scenario where one party is unconesenting. Does that make sex illegal? No.

So where did you get the idea that conditions and rules on adoption somehow makes it illegal or prohibited?

All of that was related to the abortion part of the topic. He was very clear in saying adoption is not allowed in Islam.

Me: The pro-life side points to adoption as the rational solution to unwanted pregnancy.

Him: Still, immoral. The most basic fundamental right of a child is his parents, particularly his mother: morally, biologically, psychologically, religiously... A mother who gives up her offspring, unless under extreme circumstances, is committing a grave crime against her child & his basic rights.

I find this very interesting, and particularly how it interacts with the abortion debate.
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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2/6/2016 3:50:37 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:59:31 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:

I'll just quote Yassine on this one:

" -Permissible =/= unconditional. "

There are few things in the US, or anywhere, where something is considered unconditionally legal.That certainly doesn't make it illegal. Freedom of Movement is considered a right, but is limited when one is arrested, does that make freedom of movement illegal?

Sexual intercourse is legal, yet not between a person in the age of majority and a minor, and certainly not in the scenario where one party is unconesenting. Does that make sex illegal? No.

So where did you get the idea that conditions and rules on adoption somehow makes it illegal or prohibited?

- Bro, Adoption (Tabanni) is categorically prohibited in Islam! It's in the Qur'an. Fosterage (Kafala), however, is a collective obligation. Adopting a child, i.e. giving him/her the legal status of a son/daughter is not OK. Fostering, nursing & raising a child, while maintaining his/her affiliation with his/her biological parents, is OK.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,683
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2/6/2016 3:53:23 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 3:50:37 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:59:31 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:

I'll just quote Yassine on this one:

" -Permissible =/= unconditional. "

There are few things in the US, or anywhere, where something is considered unconditionally legal.That certainly doesn't make it illegal. Freedom of Movement is considered a right, but is limited when one is arrested, does that make freedom of movement illegal?

Sexual intercourse is legal, yet not between a person in the age of majority and a minor, and certainly not in the scenario where one party is unconesenting. Does that make sex illegal? No.

So where did you get the idea that conditions and rules on adoption somehow makes it illegal or prohibited?

- Bro, Adoption (Tabanni) is categorically prohibited in Islam! It's in the Qur'an. Fosterage (Kafala), however, is a collective obligation. Adopting a child, i.e. giving him/her the legal status of a son/daughter is not OK. Fostering, nursing & raising a child, while maintaining his/her affiliation with his/her biological parents, is OK.
I wasn't talking about adoption in that sense (in which the child inheres the adopters surname, et cetera).
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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2/6/2016 3:54:47 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 3:53:23 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 3:50:37 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:59:31 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:

I'll just quote Yassine on this one:

" -Permissible =/= unconditional. "

There are few things in the US, or anywhere, where something is considered unconditionally legal.That certainly doesn't make it illegal. Freedom of Movement is considered a right, but is limited when one is arrested, does that make freedom of movement illegal?

Sexual intercourse is legal, yet not between a person in the age of majority and a minor, and certainly not in the scenario where one party is unconesenting. Does that make sex illegal? No.

So where did you get the idea that conditions and rules on adoption somehow makes it illegal or prohibited?

- Bro, Adoption (Tabanni) is categorically prohibited in Islam! It's in the Qur'an. Fosterage (Kafala), however, is a collective obligation. Adopting a child, i.e. giving him/her the legal status of a son/daughter is not OK. Fostering, nursing & raising a child, while maintaining his/her affiliation with his/her biological parents, is OK.

I wasn't talking about adoption in that sense (in which the child inheres the adopters surname, et cetera).

- Well, unless I am mistaken, isn't that what adoption essentially means?
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,683
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2/6/2016 3:57:38 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 3:54:47 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/6/2016 3:53:23 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 3:50:37 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:59:31 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:

I'll just quote Yassine on this one:

" -Permissible =/= unconditional. "

There are few things in the US, or anywhere, where something is considered unconditionally legal.That certainly doesn't make it illegal. Freedom of Movement is considered a right, but is limited when one is arrested, does that make freedom of movement illegal?

Sexual intercourse is legal, yet not between a person in the age of majority and a minor, and certainly not in the scenario where one party is unconesenting. Does that make sex illegal? No.

So where did you get the idea that conditions and rules on adoption somehow makes it illegal or prohibited?

- Bro, Adoption (Tabanni) is categorically prohibited in Islam! It's in the Qur'an. Fosterage (Kafala), however, is a collective obligation. Adopting a child, i.e. giving him/her the legal status of a son/daughter is not OK. Fostering, nursing & raising a child, while maintaining his/her affiliation with his/her biological parents, is OK.

I wasn't talking about adoption in that sense (in which the child inheres the adopters surname, et cetera).

- Well, unless I am mistaken, isn't that what adoption essentially means?

That's only in the legal sense. The child can't still considered adopted even if they don't inherent the surname. It only really becomes haram if the surname is inherited or other rules are broken.
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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2/6/2016 4:06:21 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 3:57:38 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 3:54:47 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/6/2016 3:53:23 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 3:50:37 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:59:31 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:

I'll just quote Yassine on this one:

" -Permissible =/= unconditional. "

There are few things in the US, or anywhere, where something is considered unconditionally legal.That certainly doesn't make it illegal. Freedom of Movement is considered a right, but is limited when one is arrested, does that make freedom of movement illegal?

Sexual intercourse is legal, yet not between a person in the age of majority and a minor, and certainly not in the scenario where one party is unconesenting. Does that make sex illegal? No.

So where did you get the idea that conditions and rules on adoption somehow makes it illegal or prohibited?

- Bro, Adoption (Tabanni) is categorically prohibited in Islam! It's in the Qur'an. Fosterage (Kafala), however, is a collective obligation. Adopting a child, i.e. giving him/her the legal status of a son/daughter is not OK. Fostering, nursing & raising a child, while maintaining his/her affiliation with his/her biological parents, is OK.

I wasn't talking about adoption in that sense (in which the child inheres the adopters surname, et cetera).

- Well, unless I am mistaken, isn't that what adoption essentially means?

That's only in the legal sense. The child can't still considered adopted even if they don't inherent the surname. It only really becomes haram if the surname is inherited or other rules are broken.

- The western practice of adoption does indeed fit with what we call Tabanni, which is prohibited.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,683
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2/6/2016 4:09:52 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 4:06:21 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/6/2016 3:57:38 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 3:54:47 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/6/2016 3:53:23 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 3:50:37 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:59:31 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:

I'll just quote Yassine on this one:

" -Permissible =/= unconditional. "

There are few things in the US, or anywhere, where something is considered unconditionally legal.That certainly doesn't make it illegal. Freedom of Movement is considered a right, but is limited when one is arrested, does that make freedom of movement illegal?

Sexual intercourse is legal, yet not between a person in the age of majority and a minor, and certainly not in the scenario where one party is unconesenting. Does that make sex illegal? No.

So where did you get the idea that conditions and rules on adoption somehow makes it illegal or prohibited?

- Bro, Adoption (Tabanni) is categorically prohibited in Islam! It's in the Qur'an. Fosterage (Kafala), however, is a collective obligation. Adopting a child, i.e. giving him/her the legal status of a son/daughter is not OK. Fostering, nursing & raising a child, while maintaining his/her affiliation with his/her biological parents, is OK.

I wasn't talking about adoption in that sense (in which the child inheres the adopters surname, et cetera).

- Well, unless I am mistaken, isn't that what adoption essentially means?

That's only in the legal sense. The child can't still considered adopted even if they don't inherent the surname. It only really becomes haram if the surname is inherited or other rules are broken.

- The western practice of adoption does indeed fit with what we call Tabanni, which is prohibited.

Remember, not all practices of adoption are the same as the West. So Western-style adoption may fit into Tabanni, but it's still legally possible to adopt them in a manner that the surname is not inhered and that Kafala is practised instead.
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
Yassine
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2/6/2016 4:11:37 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 4:09:52 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:

Remember, not all practices of adoption are the same as the West. So Western-style adoption may fit into Tabanni, but it's still legally possible to adopt them in a manner that the surname is not inhered and that Kafala is practised instead.

- Definitely. Ridaa' => problem solved.
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TBR
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2/6/2016 4:13:32 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 4:09:52 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 4:06:21 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/6/2016 3:57:38 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 3:54:47 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/6/2016 3:53:23 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/6/2016 3:50:37 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:59:31 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:

I'll just quote Yassine on this one:

" -Permissible =/= unconditional. "

There are few things in the US, or anywhere, where something is considered unconditionally legal.That certainly doesn't make it illegal. Freedom of Movement is considered a right, but is limited when one is arrested, does that make freedom of movement illegal?

Sexual intercourse is legal, yet not between a person in the age of majority and a minor, and certainly not in the scenario where one party is unconesenting. Does that make sex illegal? No.

So where did you get the idea that conditions and rules on adoption somehow makes it illegal or prohibited?

- Bro, Adoption (Tabanni) is categorically prohibited in Islam! It's in the Qur'an. Fosterage (Kafala), however, is a collective obligation. Adopting a child, i.e. giving him/her the legal status of a son/daughter is not OK. Fostering, nursing & raising a child, while maintaining his/her affiliation with his/her biological parents, is OK.

I wasn't talking about adoption in that sense (in which the child inheres the adopters surname, et cetera).

- Well, unless I am mistaken, isn't that what adoption essentially means?

That's only in the legal sense. The child can't still considered adopted even if they don't inherent the surname. It only really becomes haram if the surname is inherited or other rules are broken.

- The western practice of adoption does indeed fit with what we call Tabanni, which is prohibited.

Remember, not all practices of adoption are the same as the West. So Western-style adoption may fit into Tabanni, but it's still legally possible to adopt them in a manner that the surname is not inhered and that Kafala is practised instead.

There are very few adoptions where the child will keep the name of the birth-mother or have any interaction past the adoption. As a matter of fact, there are legal safeguards to help PREVENT this sort of interaction.
xus00HAY
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2/6/2016 4:17:07 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
"there is always adoption".
If a woman finds herself with an unwanted pregnacy, don't say that to her^, if you are trying to get into her pants.
According to the pro-lifers, adoption is an option to this problem. so instead of taking an abortion pill she should do 9 months of pregnancy, and when the baby is born give it away.
IRL, after a woman has been pregnant for a few months, with all those pregnant woman hormones in her blood she will probably change her mind and feel that the fetus is a part of her. ,She's not gonna give away that baby. She will also have what she needs to qualify for food stamps and Aid to Families with Dependant Children.
UtherPenguin
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2/6/2016 4:18:07 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 4:13:32 AM, TBR wrote:

There are very few adoptions where the child will keep the name of the birth-mother or have any interaction past the adoption. As a matter of fact, there are legal safeguards to help PREVENT this sort of interaction.

Well, I'm no expert on the adoption process in the US.
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
Yassine
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2/6/2016 4:18:29 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 4:13:32 AM, TBR wrote:

There are very few adoptions where the child will keep the name of the birth-mother or have any interaction past the adoption.

- That's what I was talking about.

As a matter of fact, there are legal safeguards to help PREVENT this sort of interaction.

- Absolutely out of the question!
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Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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TBR
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2/6/2016 4:33:22 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 4:18:29 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/6/2016 4:13:32 AM, TBR wrote:

There are very few adoptions where the child will keep the name of the birth-mother or have any interaction past the adoption.

- That's what I was talking about.

As a matter of fact, there are legal safeguards to help PREVENT this sort of interaction.

- Absolutely out of the question!

Between my Mother - Stepfather & Father - Stepmother, our combined family adopted six children, and fostered a number more. (a number of good and strange reasons for the lot of them). Point is, not one had a different surname. Not one (including a Chinese girl) has had any interaction with their birth parents while growing up. Two of them have met their birth father, one has had prolonged contact with same.

It is the absolute norm for western adoption. I agree with what you on saying with that regard.
Geogeer
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2/8/2016 6:50:32 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 10:49:37 PM, TBR wrote:
New bit of information from our resident expert in all things Islam. This, to me, has big impact on the common refrain from pro-life that "there is always adoption".

What does this mean to you? Does it change thinking in any way regarding that line of thinking from pro-life? There is a pro-lifer who says she is (or was I don't know) Muslim. She has used the "always adoption" line. I think it is strange.

Thoughts?

The only way it could matter is if you are living under Sharia Law.
TBR
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2/8/2016 7:01:38 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/8/2016 6:50:32 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 2/5/2016 10:49:37 PM, TBR wrote:
New bit of information from our resident expert in all things Islam. This, to me, has big impact on the common refrain from pro-life that "there is always adoption".

What does this mean to you? Does it change thinking in any way regarding that line of thinking from pro-life? There is a pro-lifer who says she is (or was I don't know) Muslim. She has used the "always adoption" line. I think it is strange.

Thoughts?

The only way it could matter is if you are living under Sharia Law.

Well, obviously some people do. It impacts the ~4 million US Muslims. It is off and interesting to me generally speaking.
Geogeer
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2/8/2016 7:31:09 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/8/2016 7:01:38 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/8/2016 6:50:32 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 2/5/2016 10:49:37 PM, TBR wrote:
New bit of information from our resident expert in all things Islam. This, to me, has big impact on the common refrain from pro-life that "there is always adoption".

What does this mean to you? Does it change thinking in any way regarding that line of thinking from pro-life? There is a pro-lifer who says she is (or was I don't know) Muslim. She has used the "always adoption" line. I think it is strange.

Thoughts?

The only way it could matter is if you are living under Sharia Law.

Well, obviously some people do. It impacts the ~4 million US Muslims. It is off and interesting to me generally speaking.

True, but they only seemed concerned with blood lines and inheritance and not the duty to protect and provide for (which they believe must be provided for). Fundamental differences in Christianity heritage and Islamic heritage.