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Should The U.S. Throw The Book At Them?

MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,106
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2/7/2016 2:40:54 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
First, check out this report and video:

http://abc7ny.com...

After reviewing the above link, whether the persons involved personally classify this as "The Knockout Game" or not, this is utterly disturbing to me; how do you feel?

Most importantly, at this point in time, do you think criminals like this should have the book thrown at them with extreme prejudice? For Example:

1) Charging the attacker(s) as adults regardless of age
2) Charging the attacker(s) not just with disorderly conduct or simple assault, but instead charging them with assault and battery, attempted manslaughter/murder, assault with intent to cause severe bodily harm, etc.
3) Mandatory minimum jail terms of 6 months, 12 months or more
4) Fined the amount of all medical costs accrued with the very likely potential of pain and suffering, estimated medical costs moving forward, etc.
5) Absolutely NO Probation or community service unless it is in ADDITION to a jail term served and/or to repay medical costs
6) No chance of expunging the charges - this includes a minor turning 18

Share your thoughts.
YYW
Posts: 36,334
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2/7/2016 3:43:29 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 2:40:54 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
First, check out this report and video:

http://abc7ny.com...

After reviewing the above link, whether the persons involved personally classify this as "The Knockout Game" or not, this is utterly disturbing to me; how do you feel?

I'm happy to see that you've started a meaningful thread. This raises many social issues, and the questions you've asked below are good ones.

Most importantly, at this point in time, do you think criminals like this should have the book thrown at them with extreme prejudice? For Example:

Charging the attacker(s) as adults regardless of age

I am unlikely to support this; and in reality I would raise the age for who is a juvenile to 21.

Charging the attacker(s) not just with disorderly conduct or simple assault, but instead charging them with assault and battery, attempted manslaughter/murder, assault with intent to cause severe bodily harm, etc.

Assault is putting someone in imminent apprehension of a battery; battery is the actual act of making hostile contact with that person.

That said, I think those charges are high enough... and the sentences they carry can be pretty significant for what the acts are.

You couldn't, factually at least, likely charge anyone who does that kind of thing with attempted murder, though. That's overreaching.

Mandatory minimum jail terms of 6 months, 12 months or more

I think 6 months in jail is reasonable, but, only where the jail is a youth facility.

Fined the amount of all medical costs accrued with the very likely potential of pain and suffering, estimated medical costs moving forward, etc.

What typically happens is that people who are the victims of batteries sue their attackers for money that is meant to represent the cost of their medical bills, plus pain and suffering. I think this is a better way to go, although these kids are unlikely to have money themselves...

Absolutely NO Probation or community service unless it is in ADDITION to a jail term served and/or to repay medical costs

I don't think community service is very effective, and I'm also skeptical about probation. The reason is because the kids who engage in this kind of activity are deriving pleasure from harming other people; and that presents a real risk to society.

No chance of expunging the charges - this includes a minor turning 18

I don't think this would do much good; kids who commit don't think about the long term consequences of their actions like that. Really, adults don't either.

Responsible people do, but higher penalties don't make people more responsible.
Tsar of DDO
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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2/7/2016 4:25:51 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 2:40:54 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
First, check out this report and video:

http://abc7ny.com...

After reviewing the above link, whether the persons involved personally classify this as "The Knockout Game" or not, this is utterly disturbing to me; how do you feel?

Most importantly, at this point in time, do you think criminals like this should have the book thrown at them with extreme prejudice? For Example:

1) Charging the attacker(s) as adults regardless of age
2) Charging the attacker(s) not just with disorderly conduct or simple assault, but instead charging them with assault and battery, attempted manslaughter/murder, assault with intent to cause severe bodily harm, etc.
3) Mandatory minimum jail terms of 6 months, 12 months or more
4) Fined the amount of all medical costs accrued with the very likely potential of pain and suffering, estimated medical costs moving forward, etc.
5) Absolutely NO Probation or community service unless it is in ADDITION to a jail term served and/or to repay medical costs
6) No chance of expunging the charges - this includes a minor turning 18

Share your thoughts.

YYW answered eloquently and completely. I have nothing more to add..
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/7/2016 4:30:33 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 4:25:51 AM, TBR wrote:
At 2/7/2016 2:40:54 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
First, check out this report and video:

http://abc7ny.com...

After reviewing the above link, whether the persons involved personally classify this as "The Knockout Game" or not, this is utterly disturbing to me; how do you feel?

Most importantly, at this point in time, do you think criminals like this should have the book thrown at them with extreme prejudice? For Example:

1) Charging the attacker(s) as adults regardless of age
2) Charging the attacker(s) not just with disorderly conduct or simple assault, but instead charging them with assault and battery, attempted manslaughter/murder, assault with intent to cause severe bodily harm, etc.
3) Mandatory minimum jail terms of 6 months, 12 months or more
4) Fined the amount of all medical costs accrued with the very likely potential of pain and suffering, estimated medical costs moving forward, etc.
5) Absolutely NO Probation or community service unless it is in ADDITION to a jail term served and/or to repay medical costs
6) No chance of expunging the charges - this includes a minor turning 18

Share your thoughts.

YYW answered eloquently and completely. I have nothing more to add..

I still value your co tribution to this thread
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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2/7/2016 4:41:50 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 4:30:33 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/7/2016 4:25:51 AM, TBR wrote:
At 2/7/2016 2:40:54 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
First, check out this report and video:

http://abc7ny.com...

After reviewing the above link, whether the persons involved personally classify this as "The Knockout Game" or not, this is utterly disturbing to me; how do you feel?

Most importantly, at this point in time, do you think criminals like this should have the book thrown at them with extreme prejudice? For Example:

1) Charging the attacker(s) as adults regardless of age
2) Charging the attacker(s) not just with disorderly conduct or simple assault, but instead charging them with assault and battery, attempted manslaughter/murder, assault with intent to cause severe bodily harm, etc.
3) Mandatory minimum jail terms of 6 months, 12 months or more
4) Fined the amount of all medical costs accrued with the very likely potential of pain and suffering, estimated medical costs moving forward, etc.
5) Absolutely NO Probation or community service unless it is in ADDITION to a jail term served and/or to repay medical costs
6) No chance of expunging the charges - this includes a minor turning 18

Share your thoughts.

YYW answered eloquently and completely. I have nothing more to add..

I still value your co tribution to this thread

OK...

1) Charging the attacker(s) as adults regardless of age
Stupid. Age is critical to judging actions.

2) Charging the attacker(s) not just with disorderly conduct or simple assault, but instead charging them with assault and battery, attempted manslaughter/murder, assault with intent to cause severe bodily harm, etc.
Its not attempted murder at all. It is what it is. Barbaric and stupid.

3) Mandatory minimum jail terms of 6 months, 12 months or more
This has room to discuss

4) Fined the amount of all medical costs accrued with the very likely potential of pain and suffering, estimated medical costs moving forward, etc.
I don't care about costs. That should be part of national healthcare.

5) Absolutely NO Probation or community service unless it is in ADDITION to a jail term served and/or to repay medical costs
nope. Dumb. Why should I not offer probation or community service vs paying to house dumb criminals?

6) No chance of expunging the charges - this includes a minor turning 18
SUPER dumb. People need to have a chance to redeem.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/7/2016 4:43:41 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
I meant I valued the contribution previous to that statement, I wasn't encouraging you to go on.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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2/7/2016 4:44:09 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 4:43:41 AM, Wylted wrote:
I meant I valued the contribution previous to that statement, I wasn't encouraging you to go on.

I see. Very well.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/7/2016 4:46:45 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
If you want to make a post specifically on the knock put game sweepung black communities with predominately wwhite victims, you can start a thread in society and Lamarde will find a lot of good tgings to say about it.
MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,106
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2/7/2016 6:05:28 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 3:43:29 AM, YYW wrote:
At 2/7/2016 2:40:54 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
First, check out this report and video:

http://abc7ny.com...

After reviewing the above link, whether the persons involved personally classify this as "The Knockout Game" or not, this is utterly disturbing to me; how do you feel?

I'm happy to see that you've started a meaningful thread. This raises many social issues, and the questions you've asked below are good ones.

Most importantly, at this point in time, do you think criminals like this should have the book thrown at them with extreme prejudice? For Example:

Charging the attacker(s) as adults regardless of age

I am unlikely to support this; and in reality I would raise the age for who is a juvenile to 21.

This is a whole can of worms in itself, Pandora's Box really. Raising this age to 21 would change age to join the military, age to graduate high school, age to go to college away from home, age to work over 20 hours a week give or take depending on state, smoking age, gambling age including lottery tickets, age for single signer lines of credit, age for driving without restrictions, curfew laws, other child labor laws, and SO many more items most people fail to account for in this discussion.

Charging the attacker(s) not just with disorderly conduct or simple assault, but instead charging them with assault and battery, attempted manslaughter/murder, assault with intent to cause severe bodily harm, etc.

Assault is putting someone in imminent apprehension of a battery; battery is the actual act of making hostile contact with that person.

You are correct if the term is simply googled. However, "assault" actually breaks down into degrees:

1) "Assault in the Fourth Degree" is a punch or other physical strike to another person, causing minor or no physical or mental injury; this is a misdemeanor.

2) "Assault in the Third Degree" is a physical strike to another person causing significant physical injury or lasting pain causing considerable suffering by way of negligence; this is a felony.

3) "Assault in the Second Degree" is an intentional physical strike thereby recklessly inflicting substantial bodily harm; this is a felony

4) "Assault in the First Degree" is a physical strike with deadly weapon or poison

Assault comes in other degrees such as "Aggravated Assault" & "Verbal Assault"; verbal is more commonly recognized as "Verbal Abuse". "Battery" is a felony consisting of a physical act resulting in harmful or offensive contact with another person without consent, inflicting serious bodily harm or the use of a deadly or dangerous weapon.

"Assault" is a lesser included charge for "Battery" and is sometimes referred to as "Assault and Battery"; this due to only one of the two allowed to be used, however if battery is reached, assault has been surpassed. Although some jurisdictions use the two interchangeably, most merge them.

That said, I think those charges are high enough... and the sentences they carry can be pretty significant for what the acts are.

The sentence for "Assault in the Fourth" is generally a maximum of 365 days in jail, service of probation or service of community service. Generally you see a plea down to "Disorderly Contact"; if the trial proceeds, a minor or first time offender would expect to receive 6-12 months probation...a slap on the wrist.

You couldn't, factually at least, likely charge anyone who does that kind of thing with attempted murder, though. That's overreaching.

Yes, this one was out there, but what I was getting at was felony laws specifically designed to end this nonsense; case in point, the state of Florida, criminal law statute 784.08 Aggravated Assault or Battery against a person 65 years or older -- Minimum 3 years in jail, $10,000 fine AND restitution

Mandatory minimum jail terms of 6 months, 12 months or more

I think 6 months in jail is reasonable, but, only where the jail is a youth facility.

I can agree with you here, with one exception: If the attacker is of an age (say 15-17) or is deemed to have understood that his actions were wrong and/or potentially damaging PRIOR to the attack (think about the kids laughing about the "knock out game" prior to the attacks), he should STILL be charged and sentenced as an adult; incarceration time to be served in a juvenile detention center with transfer to adult facility once 18.

Fined the amount of all medical costs accrued with the very likely potential of pain and suffering, estimated medical costs moving forward, etc.

What typically happens is that people who are the victims of batteries sue their attackers for money that is meant to represent the cost of their medical bills, plus pain and suffering. I think this is a better way to go, although these kids are unlikely to have money themselves...

Why put the victim(s) through additional & unnecessary trials and mental anguish, unreasonably delaying their ability to pay their medical bills, very likely having these bills enter a collections status; collections status leading to the debt being sold to a collection agency which starts the harassment and the selling of the collection account to additional agencies, new collectors harassing them every few months, ending up in more legal battles to end the collector calls and restore credit ratings and reports. Oh, and this does not end collection calls forever...only until the account is sold to a new debt collector.

Just end it all in one swoop.

Absolutely NO Probation or community service unless it is in ADDITION to a jail term served and/or to repay medical costs

I don't think community service is very effective, and I'm also skeptical about probation. The reason is because the kids who engage in this kind of activity are deriving pleasure from harming other people; and that presents a real risk to society.

Agreed, which is why they would be additional punishments, not the ONLY punishments as we typically see today.

No chance of expunging the charges - this includes a minor turning 18

I don't think this would do much good; kids who commit don't think about the long term consequences of their actions like that. Really, adults don't either. Responsible people do, but higher penalties don't make people more responsible.

What this does is keeps the incidents and charges on the person's criminal record permanently in order to properly increase sentencing and punishment for future events. Currently, your record is expunged after a set time (usually 5-10 years) or if a minor is turning 18 their juvenile record is "sealed". Next time this occurs, to the judge it appears as a first offense when it is actually the second, third, fourth or more offense.

Punishment for wrongful acts whether criminal, civil or even grounding your child are not about instilling responsibility, they are about punishment for wrong doings. A person can only create or grow responsibility in one self, not others. We can only instill, reward or demonstrate responsibility to others, not force it upon them. If it were possible to forcefully create responsibility in another person, MKUltra would be the CIA's biggest success and this would be the biggest money maker on the planet...mind control.
MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,106
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2/7/2016 6:27:22 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 4:41:50 AM, TBR wrote:
At 2/7/2016 4:30:33 AM, Wylted wrote:

1) Charging the attacker(s) as adults regardless of age
Stupid. Age is critical to judging actions.

There are exceptions to EVERY rule, and this particular instance I believe should be one -- willingly planning how to physically assault an unsuspecting person with the direct intent of causing enough physical force to the victim's literal brain to cause a "knock out"; knock out defined as a concussion and loss of consciousness or complete unresponsiveness to all stimuli.

Additional response listed in previous post above.

2) Charging the attacker(s) not just with disorderly conduct or simple assault, but instead charging them with assault and battery, attempted manslaughter/murder, assault with intent to cause severe bodily harm, etc.
Its not attempted murder at all. It is what it is. Barbaric and stupid.

Agreed, I responded to this in my previous post above.

3) Mandatory minimum jail terms of 6 months, 12 months or more
This has room to discuss

Agreed

4) Fined the amount of all medical costs accrued with the very likely potential of pain and suffering, estimated medical costs moving forward, etc.
I don't care about costs. That should be part of national healthcare.

Well now you're taking out of my (and every other law abiding tax payer's) pockets as a "National Healthcare" system is DIRECTLY funded by tax revenue. So this would punish EVERYONE that pays taxes as opposed to punishing the attacker. Seems kind of backward right?

5) Absolutely NO Probation or community service unless it is in ADDITION to a jail term served and/or to repay medical costs
nope. Dumb. Why should I not offer probation or community service vs paying to house dumb criminals?

Probation and Community Service are a joke to criminals...I mean literally a joke. I would challenge you to find a single, solitary violent criminal like the one in the link on the original post who truly felt as though their probation or community service was a "hand to the bible" punishment. You won't find one...to them, community service and probation is literally a joke compared to jail time.

6) No chance of expunging the charges - this includes a minor turning 18
SUPER dumb. People need to have a chance to redeem.

Soooooo should felons have their records expunged? Those include Rapists and pedophiles; what about say a pedophile caught on multiple occasions? I believe in second chances and all, but criminals such as pedophiles which are hated even in jail...require additional thought prior to blanketing them with all others...right?