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Violence in Hong Kong over fishballs

Diqiucun_Cunmin
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2/8/2016 7:12:10 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
The Western media hasn't got it yet, but there's been a riot in Mongkok over... wait for it... fishballs.

Dissatisfied about the government's crackdown on street vendors, some 'nativists' (extreme rightists of the pro-democracy camp) began a small protest. Later, the police started a crackdown with pepper spray and batons.

Up to this point it's nothing surprising. Baton use was rare in the past, but since the Umbrella Revolution, we've got used to it. I know someone who was beaten with one.

But here's the surprising part... For the first time, the nativists retaliated with more violence. In the past, hurling insults and shattering some glass was the worst they'd done, but this time, they hurled bins, bricks and other materials at the police.

The police responded with guns. Again, this was unexpected - the police had threatened to use guns during the early days of the Umbrella Revolution, but this was unheard of.

I'll keep DDO updated if anyone is interested, but will (try to) go to sleep now. (This incident, is the reason why I'm still awake lol...)
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

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Diqiucun_Cunmin
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2/8/2016 7:24:07 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Did I also mention it's Chinese New Year? Arguments are supposed to break out on the third day of the first month of the lunar calendar - not the first...
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,104
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2/8/2016 7:24:36 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/8/2016 7:12:10 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
The Western media hasn't got it yet, but there's been a riot in Mongkok over... wait for it... fishballs.

Dissatisfied about the government's crackdown on street vendors, some 'nativists' (extreme rightists of the pro-democracy camp) began a small protest. Later, the police started a crackdown with pepper spray and batons.

Up to this point it's nothing surprising. Baton use was rare in the past, but since the Umbrella Revolution, we've got used to it. I know someone who was beaten with one.

But here's the surprising part... For the first time, the nativists retaliated with more violence. In the past, hurling insults and shattering some glass was the worst they'd done, but this time, they hurled bins, bricks and other materials at the police.

The police responded with guns. Again, this was unexpected - the police had threatened to use guns during the early days of the Umbrella Revolution, but this was unheard of.

I'll keep DDO updated if anyone is interested, but will (try to) go to sleep now. (This incident, is the reason why I'm still awake lol...)

I don't currently see any reports on this, but from your post it appears the protests were started regarding economic policy changes which apparently had a major negative effect on the region you list "Mongkok". Maybe "fishballs" are sold at a relatively high rate in said region, but specifically denoting "fishballs" as the aggravating factor appears to be an embellishment by yourself to attract viewers as opposed to the cause.

No disrespect intended, just an observation from your post.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
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2/8/2016 7:33:24 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/8/2016 7:24:36 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 2/8/2016 7:12:10 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
The Western media hasn't got it yet, but there's been a riot in Mongkok over... wait for it... fishballs.

Dissatisfied about the government's crackdown on street vendors, some 'nativists' (extreme rightists of the pro-democracy camp) began a small protest. Later, the police started a crackdown with pepper spray and batons.

Up to this point it's nothing surprising. Baton use was rare in the past, but since the Umbrella Revolution, we've got used to it. I know someone who was beaten with one.

But here's the surprising part... For the first time, the nativists retaliated with more violence. In the past, hurling insults and shattering some glass was the worst they'd done, but this time, they hurled bins, bricks and other materials at the police.

The police responded with guns. Again, this was unexpected - the police had threatened to use guns during the early days of the Umbrella Revolution, but this was unheard of.

I'll keep DDO updated if anyone is interested, but will (try to) go to sleep now. (This incident, is the reason why I'm still awake lol...)

I don't currently see any reports on this, but from your post it appears the protests were started regarding economic policy changes which apparently had a major negative effect on the region you list "Mongkok". Maybe "fishballs" are sold at a relatively high rate in said region, but specifically denoting "fishballs" as the aggravating factor appears to be an embellishment by yourself to attract viewers as opposed to the cause.

No disrespect intended, just an observation from your post.

To clarify (I guess I shouldn't expect readers to be familiar with our street food...), the protests were sparked by opposition over government agents' attempts to prosecute fishball vendors.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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2/8/2016 7:35:58 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
If you're familiar with Chinese society in general, government actions against vendors are a fairly common cause of violence.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
Blade-of-Truth
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2/8/2016 7:37:21 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/8/2016 7:12:10 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
The Western media hasn't got it yet, but there's been a riot in Mongkok over... wait for it... fishballs.

Dissatisfied about the government's crackdown on street vendors, some 'nativists' (extreme rightists of the pro-democracy camp) began a small protest. Later, the police started a crackdown with pepper spray and batons.

Sounds like the issue isn't over fishballs specifically, but rather the dismantling and harsher restrictions being put in place on street vendors. This is understandable though as street vendors have been a cornerstone of their society for countless years. Before super-markets, all we had as a people were street vendors and street markets.

I do not think it's a good thing that such actions have come about due to this conflict, but for me it's understandable. I'm more interested in hearing the governments side as to why they are cracking down on street vendors, who knows, maybe I'll agree with their reasoning once informed.
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Diqiucun_Cunmin
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2/8/2016 7:49:40 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/8/2016 7:37:21 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/8/2016 7:12:10 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
The Western media hasn't got it yet, but there's been a riot in Mongkok over... wait for it... fishballs.

Dissatisfied about the government's crackdown on street vendors, some 'nativists' (extreme rightists of the pro-democracy camp) began a small protest. Later, the police started a crackdown with pepper spray and batons.

Sounds like the issue isn't over fishballs specifically, but rather the dismantling and harsher restrictions being put in place on street vendors. This is understandable though as street vendors have been a cornerstone of their society for countless years. Before super-markets, all we had as a people were street vendors and street markets.
In a way it's not about fishballs specifically. Actually, for a long time there's been dissatisfaction over the government's treatment of street vendors and the government's double standards (corporations are not prosecuted for occupying street space during promotions). One notable incident from about five years ago was the old man who sold egg puffs for a living to avoid relying on welfare. His prosecution led to an uproar.

What makes this particular incident interesting is that a) it's a spontaneous protest (which is illegal here; all protests need prior permission from the police) and b) protesters retaliated with violence (we have a history of peaceful protests - that's why protesters had the moral high ground in face of police brutality, a high ground they may not hold onto for much longer). Both, particularly b), are unprecedented, and there may be repercussions both on the democratic movement and on society at large.

I do not think it's a good thing that such actions have come about due to this conflict, but for me it's understandable. I'm more interested in hearing the governments side as to why they are cracking down on street vendors, who knows, maybe I'll agree with their reasoning once informed.
Their reasoning is not unreasonable - there is no guarantee of hygiene standards held by unlicensed vendors. However, it is rather disappointing that the policymakers still haven't learnt from years of trying and failing to get rid of vendors. The better solution is to issue more licences, ensure hygiene, etc. rather than attempting to clear the streets of hawkers.

(Btw... I really should sleep now lol.)
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,104
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2/9/2016 1:13:43 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/8/2016 7:33:24 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 2/8/2016 7:24:36 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 2/8/2016 7:12:10 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
The Western media hasn't got it yet, but there's been a riot in Mongkok over... wait for it... fishballs.

Dissatisfied about the government's crackdown on street vendors, some 'nativists' (extreme rightists of the pro-democracy camp) began a small protest. Later, the police started a crackdown with pepper spray and batons.

Up to this point it's nothing surprising. Baton use was rare in the past, but since the Umbrella Revolution, we've got used to it. I know someone who was beaten with one.

But here's the surprising part... For the first time, the nativists retaliated with more violence. In the past, hurling insults and shattering some glass was the worst they'd done, but this time, they hurled bins, bricks and other materials at the police.

The police responded with guns. Again, this was unexpected - the police had threatened to use guns during the early days of the Umbrella Revolution, but this was unheard of.

I'll keep DDO updated if anyone is interested, but will (try to) go to sleep now. (This incident, is the reason why I'm still awake lol...)

I don't currently see any reports on this, but from your post it appears the protests were started regarding economic policy changes which apparently had a major negative effect on the region you list "Mongkok". Maybe "fishballs" are sold at a relatively high rate in said region, but specifically denoting "fishballs" as the aggravating factor appears to be an embellishment by yourself to attract viewers as opposed to the cause.

No disrespect intended, just an observation from your post.

To clarify (I guess I shouldn't expect readers to be familiar with our street food...), the protests were sparked by opposition over government agents' attempts to prosecute fishball vendors.

Please forgive my ignorance of the Chinese nation and culture, but I have to ask this question:

Are you stating that the Chinese government created regulations specifically and singularly designed and/or deployed in a manner targeting ONLY fishball vendors, while ignoring every single other vendor?

If yes....why is China so made at cart pushers selling fishballs?
MakeSensePeopleDont
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2/9/2016 1:21:19 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/8/2016 7:33:24 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
To clarify (I guess I shouldn't expect readers to be familiar with our street food...), the protests were sparked by opposition over government agents' attempts to prosecute fishball vendors.

I mean the more I read this, the more odd it seems. The only other way I can think to read this is:

1) There are known and understood regulations
2) Fishball vendors willingly choose to ignore these regulations
3) The government sends its "agents" to the fishball vendors in order to enforce the law and bring forth order and compliance.

I think I saw something on street vendors vs Government regulations on Discovery a couple years ago....a lot of the issue was cleanliness and serving foods that are not regulated for safety. They cause a lot of illnesses.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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2/9/2016 1:23:33 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/9/2016 1:13:43 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 2/8/2016 7:33:24 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 2/8/2016 7:24:36 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 2/8/2016 7:12:10 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
The Western media hasn't got it yet, but there's been a riot in Mongkok over... wait for it... fishballs.

Dissatisfied about the government's crackdown on street vendors, some 'nativists' (extreme rightists of the pro-democracy camp) began a small protest. Later, the police started a crackdown with pepper spray and batons.

Up to this point it's nothing surprising. Baton use was rare in the past, but since the Umbrella Revolution, we've got used to it. I know someone who was beaten with one.

But here's the surprising part... For the first time, the nativists retaliated with more violence. In the past, hurling insults and shattering some glass was the worst they'd done, but this time, they hurled bins, bricks and other materials at the police.

The police responded with guns. Again, this was unexpected - the police had threatened to use guns during the early days of the Umbrella Revolution, but this was unheard of.

I'll keep DDO updated if anyone is interested, but will (try to) go to sleep now. (This incident, is the reason why I'm still awake lol...)

I don't currently see any reports on this, but from your post it appears the protests were started regarding economic policy changes which apparently had a major negative effect on the region you list "Mongkok". Maybe "fishballs" are sold at a relatively high rate in said region, but specifically denoting "fishballs" as the aggravating factor appears to be an embellishment by yourself to attract viewers as opposed to the cause.

No disrespect intended, just an observation from your post.

To clarify (I guess I shouldn't expect readers to be familiar with our street food...), the protests were sparked by opposition over government agents' attempts to prosecute fishball vendors.

Please forgive my ignorance of the Chinese nation and culture, but I have to ask this question:

Are you stating that the Chinese government created regulations specifically and singularly designed and/or deployed in a manner targeting ONLY fishball vendors, while ignoring every single other vendor?

If yes....why is China so made at cart pushers selling fishballs?

No, they hate vendors in general. The government action just happens to be directed towards fishball vendors this time...
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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2/9/2016 1:27:08 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/9/2016 1:21:19 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 2/8/2016 7:33:24 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
To clarify (I guess I shouldn't expect readers to be familiar with our street food...), the protests were sparked by opposition over government agents' attempts to prosecute fishball vendors.

I mean the more I read this, the more odd it seems. The only other way I can think to read this is:

1) There are known and understood regulations
2) Fishball vendors willingly choose to ignore these regulations
3) The government sends its "agents" to the fishball vendors in order to enforce the law and bring forth order and compliance.

I think I saw something on street vendors vs Government regulations on Discovery a couple years ago....a lot of the issue was cleanliness and serving foods that are not regulated for safety. They cause a lot of illnesses.
True, and hygiene is an issue, but the government's long-time policy to clean the streets of hawkers (comparable to whack-a-mole) is ineffective and it's not sure why they continue this practice. At it currently stands, the government doesn't want to issue new licences to the vendors, so they there's no way for them to sell food legally, whether or not they're hygienic enough. If the government were willing to issue more licences, they would be able to better monitor hygiene conditions and we'll get to retain street food culture.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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2/9/2016 1:32:07 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/9/2016 1:27:08 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 2/9/2016 1:21:19 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 2/8/2016 7:33:24 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
To clarify (I guess I shouldn't expect readers to be familiar with our street food...), the protests were sparked by opposition over government agents' attempts to prosecute fishball vendors.

I mean the more I read this, the more odd it seems. The only other way I can think to read this is:

1) There are known and understood regulations
2) Fishball vendors willingly choose to ignore these regulations
3) The government sends its "agents" to the fishball vendors in order to enforce the law and bring forth order and compliance.

I think I saw something on street vendors vs Government regulations on Discovery a couple years ago....a lot of the issue was cleanliness and serving foods that are not regulated for safety. They cause a lot of illnesses.
True, and hygiene is an issue, but the government's long-time policy to clean the streets of hawkers (comparable to whack-a-mole) is ineffective and I'm not sure why they continue this practice. At it currently stands, the government doesn't want to issue new licences to the vendors, so they there's no way for them to sell food legally, whether or not they're hygienic enough. If the government were willing to issue more licences, they would be able to better monitor hygiene conditions and we'll get to retain street food culture.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,104
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2/9/2016 3:09:27 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/9/2016 1:27:08 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 2/9/2016 1:21:19 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 2/8/2016 7:33:24 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
To clarify (I guess I shouldn't expect readers to be familiar with our street food...), the protests were sparked by opposition over government agents' attempts to prosecute fishball vendors.

I mean the more I read this, the more odd it seems. The only other way I can think to read this is:

1) There are known and understood regulations
2) Fishball vendors willingly choose to ignore these regulations
3) The government sends its "agents" to the fishball vendors in order to enforce the law and bring forth order and compliance.

I think I saw something on street vendors vs Government regulations on Discovery a couple years ago....a lot of the issue was cleanliness and serving foods that are not regulated for safety. They cause a lot of illnesses.
True, and hygiene is an issue, but the government's long-time policy to clean the streets of hawkers (comparable to whack-a-mole) is ineffective and it's not sure why they continue this practice. At it currently stands, the government doesn't want to issue new licences to the vendors, so they there's no way for them to sell food legally, whether or not they're hygienic enough. If the government were willing to issue more licences, they would be able to better monitor hygiene conditions and we'll get to retain street food culture.

Let's start off with an absolute positive: Maaaaan...some of the best food I've ever eaten has been from:

1) Random popup tables on sidewalks manned by four generations of Puerto Ricans looking like they just jumped straight off a stereotyping awareness billboard
2) From old Mexican guys pedaling around on an inverted tricycle with dented up chrome insulator box to hold food horribly welded to the front, ridding around jamming out to some Meriachi-Polka from boom box bungied on the back of the seat and ringing a little bike bell

That being said, good food or not, they need to at least follow health standards IMO.