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My view on the Palestinian/Israel conflict

tajshar2k
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2/9/2016 9:20:59 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
I'm sure a lot of you have heard of this. So I thought I'd share my view on this.

Growing up,I was already in this pro-Israeli mindset (Around 2007). The news were always showing Hamas launching rockets, Bush giving speeches on how Israel is our friend and ally, and pictures of Hamas soldiers always scared me. At the time, I wasn't anti-Islam, but I still supported Israel since I thought terrorists were trying to attack Israel.

My views began to change after a couple years (about 2012). After learning more about Islam, I strongly became a pro-Israel supporter. Almost to the point where I justified it when they killed every Palestinian. The main reason I became even Pro-Israel, because I simply assumed this was the typical Islamic bullsh*t that happens pretty much everywhere else. When muslims don't like somebody or their views, they want to use force to get rid of them. The whole time I thought Palestine simply didn't like Jews, and that every country that surrounded Israel wanted to see them disappear. I supported Israel's right to defend herself.

One day, I decided to read more about the Palestine Israel issue. I learned that Arabs were living there for a very long time, and that the Jews only immigrated as a resettlement plan after WW2. I never understood why people say Israel is not a real country, because to began with, Palestine was not one either. So, the argument that Israel is not a legitimate state, is simply false. I simply read more about the wars and stuff, but what astonished me was that Israel was taking land from Palestine. At this point, it didn't make sense to me.

Israel was already an established country, and the Palestinians only had a small chunk to themselves. Looking at some maps, I realized Israel was simply taking more and more land, and not only that, they were kicking out the people who were living there! You can always pull out the private property card out, but the fact remains you kicked out people from their homes. This is when I started to seriously dislike the Israeli government policy. Obviously if your land is being taken away, you are going to fight back. Who can blame Palestine for fighting back? When you face losing your homes everyday you are going to fight back. The media here never shows that part of the story, it only shows Hamas firing rockets.

I realized I needed to put my personal views on Muslims and Islam aside, and see it as a political struggle. Whether or not Palestine is a savage country with barbaric laws, and horrible people, they should be allowed to own land for themselves. Israel should seriously back of it's aggressive territorial policies, and there should be a 2 state solution.

Some questions that may be asked.

Q: Are you Pro-Israel of Pro-Palestine

A: I'm Pro-Israel in the sense I support their right to exist, and I think they are the only sane and democratic country in the middle-east. I do however support Palestine's right to exist in a 2 state solution.

Q: What should America do?

A: America should stop blindly support Israel. I still never understand why we love Israel so much. We should support them, but not agree to everything they say. We should support a two state solution, and let Israel handle matters after.

Q: A two state solution wouldn't' stop the violence


It would stop all violence, but it certainly would fix a lot of problems. Even Palestine is continuing to attack Israel even after a 2 state solution, then I strongly support Israel's decision to use lethal force.

Links

http://america.aljazeera.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
https://www.washingtonpost.com...
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,050
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2/10/2016 12:31:13 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/9/2016 9:20:59 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
I'm sure a lot of you have heard of this. So I thought I'd share my view on this.

Growing up,I was already in this pro-Israeli mindset (Around 2007). The news were always showing Hamas launching rockets, Bush giving speeches on how Israel is our friend and ally, and pictures of Hamas soldiers always scared me. At the time, I wasn't anti-Islam, but I still supported Israel since I thought terrorists were trying to attack Israel.

My views began to change after a couple years (about 2012). After learning more about Islam, I strongly became a pro-Israel supporter. Almost to the point where I justified it when they killed every Palestinian. The main reason I became even Pro-Israel, because I simply assumed this was the typical Islamic bullsh*t that happens pretty much everywhere else. When muslims don't like somebody or their views, they want to use force to get rid of them. The whole time I thought Palestine simply didn't like Jews, and that every country that surrounded Israel wanted to see them disappear. I supported Israel's right to defend herself.

One day, I decided to read more about the Palestine Israel issue. I learned that Arabs were living there for a very long time, and that the Jews only immigrated as a resettlement plan after WW2. I never understood why people say Israel is not a real country, because to began with, Palestine was not one either. So, the argument that Israel is not a legitimate state, is simply false. I simply read more about the wars and stuff, but what astonished me was that Israel was taking land from Palestine. At this point, it didn't make sense to me.

Israel was already an established country, and the Palestinians only had a small chunk to themselves. Looking at some maps, I realized Israel was simply taking more and more land, and not only that, they were kicking out the people who were living there! You can always pull out the private property card out, but the fact remains you kicked out people from their homes. This is when I started to seriously dislike the Israeli government policy. Obviously if your land is being taken away, you are going to fight back. Who can blame Palestine for fighting back? When you face losing your homes everyday you are going to fight back. The media here never shows that part of the story, it only shows Hamas firing rockets.

I realized I needed to put my personal views on Muslims and Islam aside, and see it as a political struggle. Whether or not Palestine is a savage country with barbaric laws, and horrible people, they should be allowed to own land for themselves. Israel should seriously back of it's aggressive territorial policies, and there should be a 2 state solution.

Some questions that may be asked.

Q: Are you Pro-Israel of Pro-Palestine

A: I'm Pro-Israel in the sense I support their right to exist, and I think they are the only sane and democratic country in the middle-east. I do however support Palestine's right to exist in a 2 state solution.

Q: What should America do?

A: America should stop blindly support Israel. I still never understand why we love Israel so much. We should support them, but not agree to everything they say. We should support a two state solution, and let Israel handle matters after.

Q: A two state solution wouldn't' stop the violence


It would stop all violence, but it certainly would fix a lot of problems. Even Palestine is continuing to attack Israel even after a 2 state solution, then I strongly support Israel's decision to use lethal force.


Links

http://america.aljazeera.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
https://www.washingtonpost.com...

I strongly agree, but I think there will also need to be some sort of confederation between the two, so they would remain independent of one another, but would still have a power sharing system.
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,385
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2/10/2016 12:33:08 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/10/2016 12:31:13 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 2/9/2016 9:20:59 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
I'm sure a lot of you have heard of this. So I thought I'd share my view on this.

Growing up,I was already in this pro-Israeli mindset (Around 2007). The news were always showing Hamas launching rockets, Bush giving speeches on how Israel is our friend and ally, and pictures of Hamas soldiers always scared me. At the time, I wasn't anti-Islam, but I still supported Israel since I thought terrorists were trying to attack Israel.

My views began to change after a couple years (about 2012). After learning more about Islam, I strongly became a pro-Israel supporter. Almost to the point where I justified it when they killed every Palestinian. The main reason I became even Pro-Israel, because I simply assumed this was the typical Islamic bullsh*t that happens pretty much everywhere else. When muslims don't like somebody or their views, they want to use force to get rid of them. The whole time I thought Palestine simply didn't like Jews, and that every country that surrounded Israel wanted to see them disappear. I supported Israel's right to defend herself.

One day, I decided to read more about the Palestine Israel issue. I learned that Arabs were living there for a very long time, and that the Jews only immigrated as a resettlement plan after WW2. I never understood why people say Israel is not a real country, because to began with, Palestine was not one either. So, the argument that Israel is not a legitimate state, is simply false. I simply read more about the wars and stuff, but what astonished me was that Israel was taking land from Palestine. At this point, it didn't make sense to me.

Israel was already an established country, and the Palestinians only had a small chunk to themselves. Looking at some maps, I realized Israel was simply taking more and more land, and not only that, they were kicking out the people who were living there! You can always pull out the private property card out, but the fact remains you kicked out people from their homes. This is when I started to seriously dislike the Israeli government policy. Obviously if your land is being taken away, you are going to fight back. Who can blame Palestine for fighting back? When you face losing your homes everyday you are going to fight back. The media here never shows that part of the story, it only shows Hamas firing rockets.

I realized I needed to put my personal views on Muslims and Islam aside, and see it as a political struggle. Whether or not Palestine is a savage country with barbaric laws, and horrible people, they should be allowed to own land for themselves. Israel should seriously back of it's aggressive territorial policies, and there should be a 2 state solution.

Some questions that may be asked.

Q: Are you Pro-Israel of Pro-Palestine

A: I'm Pro-Israel in the sense I support their right to exist, and I think they are the only sane and democratic country in the middle-east. I do however support Palestine's right to exist in a 2 state solution.

Q: What should America do?

A: America should stop blindly support Israel. I still never understand why we love Israel so much. We should support them, but not agree to everything they say. We should support a two state solution, and let Israel handle matters after.

Q: A two state solution wouldn't' stop the violence


It would stop all violence, but it certainly would fix a lot of problems. Even Palestine is continuing to attack Israel even after a 2 state solution, then I strongly support Israel's decision to use lethal force.


Links

http://america.aljazeera.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
https://www.washingtonpost.com...

I strongly agree, but I think there will also need to be some sort of confederation between the two, so they would remain independent of one another, but would still have a power sharing system.

I agree, but what do you mean by power sharing system.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,050
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2/10/2016 12:46:08 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/10/2016 12:33:08 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 2/10/2016 12:31:13 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 2/9/2016 9:20:59 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
I'm sure a lot of you have heard of this. So I thought I'd share my view on this.

Growing up,I was already in this pro-Israeli mindset (Around 2007). The news were always showing Hamas launching rockets, Bush giving speeches on how Israel is our friend and ally, and pictures of Hamas soldiers always scared me. At the time, I wasn't anti-Islam, but I still supported Israel since I thought terrorists were trying to attack Israel.

My views began to change after a couple years (about 2012). After learning more about Islam, I strongly became a pro-Israel supporter. Almost to the point where I justified it when they killed every Palestinian. The main reason I became even Pro-Israel, because I simply assumed this was the typical Islamic bullsh*t that happens pretty much everywhere else. When muslims don't like somebody or their views, they want to use force to get rid of them. The whole time I thought Palestine simply didn't like Jews, and that every country that surrounded Israel wanted to see them disappear. I supported Israel's right to defend herself.

One day, I decided to read more about the Palestine Israel issue. I learned that Arabs were living there for a very long time, and that the Jews only immigrated as a resettlement plan after WW2. I never understood why people say Israel is not a real country, because to began with, Palestine was not one either. So, the argument that Israel is not a legitimate state, is simply false. I simply read more about the wars and stuff, but what astonished me was that Israel was taking land from Palestine. At this point, it didn't make sense to me.

Israel was already an established country, and the Palestinians only had a small chunk to themselves. Looking at some maps, I realized Israel was simply taking more and more land, and not only that, they were kicking out the people who were living there! You can always pull out the private property card out, but the fact remains you kicked out people from their homes. This is when I started to seriously dislike the Israeli government policy. Obviously if your land is being taken away, you are going to fight back. Who can blame Palestine for fighting back? When you face losing your homes everyday you are going to fight back. The media here never shows that part of the story, it only shows Hamas firing rockets.

I realized I needed to put my personal views on Muslims and Islam aside, and see it as a political struggle. Whether or not Palestine is a savage country with barbaric laws, and horrible people, they should be allowed to own land for themselves. Israel should seriously back of it's aggressive territorial policies, and there should be a 2 state solution.

Some questions that may be asked.

Q: Are you Pro-Israel of Pro-Palestine

A: I'm Pro-Israel in the sense I support their right to exist, and I think they are the only sane and democratic country in the middle-east. I do however support Palestine's right to exist in a 2 state solution.

Q: What should America do?

A: America should stop blindly support Israel. I still never understand why we love Israel so much. We should support them, but not agree to everything they say. We should support a two state solution, and let Israel handle matters after.

Q: A two state solution wouldn't' stop the violence


It would stop all violence, but it certainly would fix a lot of problems. Even Palestine is continuing to attack Israel even after a 2 state solution, then I strongly support Israel's decision to use lethal force.


Links

http://america.aljazeera.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
https://www.washingtonpost.com...

I strongly agree, but I think there will also need to be some sort of confederation between the two, so they would remain independent of one another, but would still have a power sharing system.

I agree, but what do you mean by power sharing system.

Like a confederal system between the two. Like a more devolved EU.
triangle.128k
Posts: 3,675
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2/10/2016 12:53:58 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/10/2016 12:46:08 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
Like a confederal system between the two. Like a more devolved EU.

European countries are all very similar culturally and politically. Israel and Palestine are very different from each other unlike Europe; a confederacy between Israel and Palestine wouldn't work. Israel is a pro-western, secular republic. Palestine on the other hand has shariah-law and is anti-progression.
BrendanD19
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2/10/2016 1:03:06 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/10/2016 12:53:58 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/10/2016 12:46:08 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
Like a confederal system between the two. Like a more devolved EU.

European countries are all very similar culturally and politically. Israel and Palestine are very different from each other unlike Europe; a confederacy between Israel and Palestine wouldn't work. Israel is a pro-western, secular republic. Palestine on the other hand has shariah-law and is anti-progression.

Good grief, not this nonsense again.
Israel is a religious state (has a state religion, judaism) and Palestine doesn't have sharia law, and very few want it. I'm sure the thousands of Palestinian christians and secular Palestinians want Islamic law. I'm sure the politically secular President and PM want Sharia law.
And when you say pro-western I think what you mean is racist and imperialist.
And do European Nations really have that similar of cultures? I'm sure the French and the Germans would have a lot to say to you about that. Same for the Irish and the English.
And seeing as they both speak semitic languages, have almost identical cuisine, have similar ethnic heritage and practice abrahamic religions, I don't think they are as different as you think.
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,385
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2/10/2016 1:05:27 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/10/2016 1:03:06 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 2/10/2016 12:53:58 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/10/2016 12:46:08 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
Like a confederal system between the two. Like a more devolved EU.

European countries are all very similar culturally and politically. Israel and Palestine are very different from each other unlike Europe; a confederacy between Israel and Palestine wouldn't work. Israel is a pro-western, secular republic. Palestine on the other hand has shariah-law and is anti-progression.

Good grief, not this nonsense again.
Israel is a religious state (has a state religion, judaism) and Palestine doesn't have sharia law, and very few want it. I'm sure the thousands of Palestinian christians and secular Palestinians want Islamic law. I'm sure the politically secular President and PM want Sharia law.
And when you say pro-western I think what you mean is racist and imperialist.
And do European Nations really have that similar of cultures? I'm sure the French and the Germans would have a lot to say to you about that. Same for the Irish and the English.
And seeing as they both speak semitic languages, have almost identical cuisine, have similar ethnic heritage and practice abrahamic religions, I don't think they are as different as you think.

Israel is a very secular. Note, Secular doesn't mean Atheist. They are religious but they understand religion and politics don't mix.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,050
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2/10/2016 1:07:18 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/10/2016 12:54:31 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
I agree a two-state solution would work out the best, though i'm not sure how the idea can be executed.

It would require a different Israeli government. I'm not even sure the Labor party will do it, or at least I have my doubts. Israel would first have the recognize the 1967 borders as the legitimate borders, that way Hamas will come to the table, because Hamas refuses to talk unless Israel recognizes the 1967 borders. Fatah thinks they need to negotiate to get Israel to agree to that, so you can see the disagreement.
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,684
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2/10/2016 1:08:52 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/10/2016 1:03:06 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 2/10/2016 12:53:58 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/10/2016 12:46:08 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
Like a confederal system between the two. Like a more devolved EU.

European countries are all very similar culturally and politically. Israel and Palestine are very different from each other unlike Europe; a confederacy between Israel and Palestine wouldn't work. Israel is a pro-western, secular republic. Palestine on the other hand has shariah-law and is anti-progression.

Good grief, not this nonsense again.
Israel is a religious state (has a state religion, judaism) and Palestine doesn't have sharia law, and very few want it. I'm sure the thousands of Palestinian christians and secular Palestinians want Islamic law. I'm sure the politically secular President and PM want Sharia law.
And when you say pro-western I think what you mean is racist and imperialist.
And do European Nations really have that similar of cultures? I'm sure the French and the Germans would have a lot to say to you about that. Same for the Irish and the English.
And seeing as they both speak semitic languages, have almost identical cuisine, have similar ethnic heritage and practice abrahamic religions, I don't think they are as different as you think.

https://media.giphy.com...
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,050
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2/10/2016 1:10:37 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/10/2016 1:08:52 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 2/10/2016 1:03:06 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 2/10/2016 12:53:58 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/10/2016 12:46:08 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
Like a confederal system between the two. Like a more devolved EU.

European countries are all very similar culturally and politically. Israel and Palestine are very different from each other unlike Europe; a confederacy between Israel and Palestine wouldn't work. Israel is a pro-western, secular republic. Palestine on the other hand has shariah-law and is anti-progression.

Good grief, not this nonsense again.
Israel is a religious state (has a state religion, judaism) and Palestine doesn't have sharia law, and very few want it. I'm sure the thousands of Palestinian christians and secular Palestinians want Islamic law. I'm sure the politically secular President and PM want Sharia law.
And when you say pro-western I think what you mean is racist and imperialist.
And do European Nations really have that similar of cultures? I'm sure the French and the Germans would have a lot to say to you about that. Same for the Irish and the English.
And seeing as they both speak semitic languages, have almost identical cuisine, have similar ethnic heritage and practice abrahamic religions, I don't think they are as different as you think.

https://media.giphy.com...

Nice
triangle.128k
Posts: 3,675
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2/10/2016 1:12:39 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/10/2016 1:03:06 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 2/10/2016 12:53:58 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/10/2016 12:46:08 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
Like a confederal system between the two. Like a more devolved EU.

European countries are all very similar culturally and politically. Israel and Palestine are very different from each other unlike Europe; a confederacy between Israel and Palestine wouldn't work. Israel is a pro-western, secular republic. Palestine on the other hand has shariah-law and is anti-progression.

Good grief, not this nonsense again.
Israel is a religious state (has a state religion, judaism) and Palestine doesn't have sharia law, and very few want it. I'm sure the thousands of Palestinian christians and secular Palestinians want Islamic law. I'm sure the politically secular President and PM want Sharia law.
And when you say pro-western I think what you mean is racist and imperialist.
And do European Nations really have that similar of cultures? I'm sure the French and the Germans would have a lot to say to you about that. Same for the Irish and the English.
And seeing as they both speak semitic languages, have almost identical cuisine, have similar ethnic heritage and practice abrahamic religions, I don't think they are as different as you think.

Israel on paper has the state religion of Judaism, but its government is secular. Religious minorities in Israel have the more freedom than religious minorities anywhere else in the middle east. This is mostly due to the Shariah law imposed in many Middle eastern nations.

I doubt Palestinian religious minorities would want sharia law when it's extremely absurd and ultra-conservative. Many middle-easterners are actually against their government's sharia law, especially the youth of Iran.

By pro-western, i'm simply saying Israel is more friendly and diplomatically good with the west. It's not really racist to use the term "pro-western..."
France and Germany do vary in culture to large extent, though they are pretty similar to the point where you could classify it as "western culture." France and Germany are both based off Greek and Roman society, same with Ireland and the UK.

Israel and Palestine may be culturally similar; I never stated the nations weren't culturally very different.

My point is that Palestine and Israel are too politically different to form a confederacy. Considering how they're always attacking each other and how tense relations are at the moment, a confederacy between them would never work out in the near future.
BrendanD19
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2/10/2016 1:14:20 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/10/2016 1:05:27 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 2/10/2016 1:03:06 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 2/10/2016 12:53:58 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/10/2016 12:46:08 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
Like a confederal system between the two. Like a more devolved EU.

European countries are all very similar culturally and politically. Israel and Palestine are very different from each other unlike Europe; a confederacy between Israel and Palestine wouldn't work. Israel is a pro-western, secular republic. Palestine on the other hand has shariah-law and is anti-progression.

Good grief, not this nonsense again.
Israel is a religious state (has a state religion, judaism) and Palestine doesn't have sharia law, and very few want it. I'm sure the thousands of Palestinian christians and secular Palestinians want Islamic law. I'm sure the politically secular President and PM want Sharia law.
And when you say pro-western I think what you mean is racist and imperialist.
And do European Nations really have that similar of cultures? I'm sure the French and the Germans would have a lot to say to you about that. Same for the Irish and the English.
And seeing as they both speak semitic languages, have almost identical cuisine, have similar ethnic heritage and practice abrahamic religions, I don't think they are as different as you think.

Israel is a very secular. Note, Secular doesn't mean Atheist. They are religious but they understand religion and politics don't mix.

Really? Tell that to Israel's Education minister (who is also minister of diaspora affairs), and Israel's interior minister, and the Minster of Justice, and the health minister, and the Agriculture and Rural Development Minister
I know it doesn't mean atheist. Palestine's president and PM are both muslims, but they are politically secular.
YYW
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2/10/2016 1:17:01 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
A two state solution will never happen; it's too close to permitting national (read: group of people with common ethnicity and/or culture) self determination.

What will happen is that Israel will continue to slowly but surely take all the remaining land. This will happen, among other ways, by settlements. It is the most peaceful form of territorial acquisition in human history.

Eventually, Palestine will be no more; Israel will make Palestine into a kind of federated entity, which will be servient to Israel.

This will be a good thing, because the Palestinian government is disastrously incompetent and corrupt; it is barely a functioning state.
Tsar of DDO
BrendanD19
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2/10/2016 1:40:41 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/10/2016 1:12:39 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/10/2016 1:03:06 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 2/10/2016 12:53:58 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/10/2016 12:46:08 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
Like a confederal system between the two. Like a more devolved EU.

Israel on paper has the state religion of Judaism, but its government is secular. Religious minorities in Israel have the more freedom than religious minorities anywhere else in the middle east. This is mostly due to the Shariah law imposed in many Middle eastern nations.

Israel's government is "Not religious"?
Really? Tell that to Israel's Education minister (who is also minister of diaspora affairs), and Israel's interior minister, and the Minster of Justice, and the health minister, and the Agriculture and Rural Development Minister.

I doubt Palestinian religious minorities would want sharia law when it's extremely absurd and ultra-conservative. Many middle-easterners are actually against their government's sharia law, especially the youth of Iran.

Thank you for proving my point

By pro-western, i'm simply saying Israel is more friendly and diplomatically good with the west. It's not really racist to use the term "pro-western..."

I was criticizing the idea of western hegemony there.

France and Germany do vary in culture to large extent, though they are pretty similar to the point where you could classify it as "western culture." France and Germany are both based off Greek and Roman society, same with Ireland and the UK.

Israel and Palestine may be culturally similar; I never stated the nations weren't culturally very different.

"European countries are all very similar culturally and politically. Israel and Palestine are very different from each other unlike Europe;"
Sorry but you actually said that.

My point is that Palestine and Israel are too politically different to form a confederacy. Considering how they're always attacking each other and how tense relations are at the moment, a confederacy between them would never work out in the near future.

The confederacy would be a way for them to negotiate their issues in a manner that does not require violence. And it would be created through a two state peace agreement. It would be a way of preserving peace.
triangle.128k
Posts: 3,675
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2/10/2016 1:49:13 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/10/2016 1:40:41 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 2/10/2016 1:12:39 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/10/2016 1:03:06 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 2/10/2016 12:53:58 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/10/2016 12:46:08 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
Like a confederal system between the two. Like a more devolved EU.

Israel on paper has the state religion of Judaism, but its government is secular. Religious minorities in Israel have the more freedom than religious minorities anywhere else in the middle east. This is mostly due to the Shariah law imposed in many Middle eastern nations.

Israel's government is "Not religious"?
Really? Tell that to Israel's Education minister (who is also minister of diaspora affairs), and Israel's interior minister, and the Minster of Justice, and the health minister, and the Agriculture and Rural Development Minister.

I doubt Palestinian religious minorities would want sharia law when it's extremely absurd and ultra-conservative. Many middle-easterners are actually against their government's sharia law, especially the youth of Iran.

Thank you for proving my point
Your point is sharia law is uncivilized and barbaric?

By pro-western, i'm simply saying Israel is more friendly and diplomatically good with the west. It's not really racist to use the term "pro-western..."

I was criticizing the idea of western hegemony there.
I never implied western hegemony, sorry if it seemed like I did.

France and Germany do vary in culture to large extent, though they are pretty similar to the point where you could classify it as "western culture." France and Germany are both based off Greek and Roman society, same with Ireland and the UK.

Israel and Palestine may be culturally similar; I never stated the nations weren't culturally very different.

"European countries are all very similar culturally and politically. Israel and Palestine are very different from each other unlike Europe;"
Sorry but you actually said that.
My bad, I meant politically. Politically, Palestine and Israel are nothing alike.

My point is that Palestine and Israel are too politically different to form a confederacy. Considering how they're always attacking each other and how tense relations are at the moment, a confederacy between them would never work out in the near future.

The confederacy would be a way for them to negotiate their issues in a manner that does not require violence. And it would be created through a two state peace agreement. It would be a way of preserving peace.

It might seem a good idea on paper, but tensions are FAR too tense to ever accomplish this soon.
BrendanD19
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2/10/2016 1:53:11 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/10/2016 1:49:13 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/10/2016 1:40:41 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 2/10/2016 1:12:39 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/10/2016 1:03:06 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 2/10/2016 12:53:58 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 2/10/2016 12:46:08 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
Like a confederal system between the two. Like a more devolved EU.

Israel on paper has the state religion of Judaism, but its government is secular. Religious minorities in Israel have the more freedom than religious minorities anywhere else in the middle east. This is mostly due to the Shariah law imposed in many Middle eastern nations.

Israel's government is "Not religious"?
Really? Tell that to Israel's Education minister (who is also minister of diaspora affairs), and Israel's interior minister, and the Minster of Justice, and the health minister, and the Agriculture and Rural Development Minister.

I doubt Palestinian religious minorities would want sharia law when it's extremely absurd and ultra-conservative. Many middle-easterners are actually against their government's sharia law, especially the youth of Iran.

Thank you for proving my point
Your point is sharia law is uncivilized and barbaric?
No that people don't actually want Sharia law. Which is why they don't have it in Palestine.

By pro-western, i'm simply saying Israel is more friendly and diplomatically good with the west. It's not really racist to use the term "pro-western..."

I was criticizing the idea of western hegemony there.
I never implied western hegemony, sorry if it seemed like I did.

France and Germany do vary in culture to large extent, though they are pretty similar to the point where you could classify it as "western culture." France and Germany are both based off Greek and Roman society, same with Ireland and the UK.

Israel and Palestine may be culturally similar; I never stated the nations weren't culturally very different.

"European countries are all very similar culturally and politically. Israel and Palestine are very different from each other unlike Europe;"
Sorry but you actually said that.
My bad, I meant politically. Politically, Palestine and Israel are nothing alike.
Well in that one is a full fledged state while the other is a struggling nation under foreign occupation, then yes.
My point is that Palestine and Israel are too politically different to form a confederacy. Considering how they're always attacking each other and how tense relations are at the moment, a confederacy between them would never work out in the near future.

The confederacy would be a way for them to negotiate their issues in a manner that does not require violence. And it would be created through a two state peace agreement. It would be a way of preserving peace.

It might seem a good idea on paper, but tensions are FAR too tense to ever accomplish this soon.

Yes it would be after a peace agreement
BrendanD19
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2/10/2016 2:32:21 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/10/2016 1:17:01 AM, YYW wrote:
A two state solution will never happen; it's too close to permitting national (read: group of people with common ethnicity and/or culture) self determination.

What will happen is that Israel will continue to slowly but surely take all the remaining land. This will happen, among other ways, by settlements. It is the most peaceful form of territorial acquisition in human history.

Eventually, Palestine will be no more; Israel will make Palestine into a kind of federated entity, which will be servient to Israel.

This will be a good thing, because the Palestinian government is disastrously incompetent and corrupt; it is barely a functioning state.

Is self determination a bad thing?
Might the reason that Palestinian government is incompetent because their country is under occupation?
Settlements are the most peaceful method of land acquisition? Not buying land from a realtor?
And I'm pretty sure there are some people that disagree, namely
-Native Americans
-Black South Africans
-Irish Catholics
-Australian Aborigines
-The Maori
-The Kurds in Iraq and Turkey
-Armenians in Nakhchivan and in Turkey
-Greeks in Cyprus
-Cossacks in Russia
-Hakka people of Taiwan
-Amazonian tribes
-the Aztecs
-The Incas
-The Maya
Greyparrot
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2/10/2016 2:45:55 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/10/2016 1:17:01 AM, YYW wrote:
A two state solution will never happen; it's too close to permitting national (read: group of people with common ethnicity and/or culture) self determination.

What will happen is that Israel will continue to slowly but surely take all the remaining land. This will happen, among other ways, by settlements. It is the most peaceful form of territorial acquisition in human history.

Eventually, Palestine will be no more; Israel will make Palestine into a kind of federated entity, which will be servient to Israel.

This will be a good thing, because the Palestinian government is disastrously incompetent and corrupt; it is barely a functioning state.

http://media.giphy.com...
walker_harris3
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2/10/2016 3:13:44 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/9/2016 9:20:59 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
I'm sure a lot of you have heard of this. So I thought I'd share my view on this.

Some questions that may be asked.

Q: Are you Pro-Israel of Pro-Palestine

A: I'm Pro-Israel in the sense I support their right to exist, and I think they are the only sane and democratic country in the middle-east. I do however support Palestine's right to exist in a 2 state solution.

Q: What should America do?

A: America should stop blindly support Israel. I still never understand why we love Israel so much. We should support them, but not agree to everything they say. We should support a two state solution, and let Israel handle matters after.

Q: A two state solution wouldn't' stop the violence


It would stop all violence, but it certainly would fix a lot of problems. Even Palestine is continuing to attack Israel even after a 2 state solution, then I strongly support Israel's decision to use lethal force.


Links

http://america.aljazeera.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
https://www.washingtonpost.com...

One correction, immigration to Palestine started in 1898 when the official Zionist organization (can't remember the official name) started drafting plans for Israel and began immigrating there. The foundation was really laid with the Balfour Declaration in 1917 when the British promised the Jews an official state in Palestine, going against their same promise they made to the Arabs. Immigration really ramped up in the 30's, the number of Jews in Palestine tripled between 1930 and 1940, but then of course further increased when Israel became a state in 48. It's also noteworthy that in 48 there was an equal number of Jews and Arabs living in Palestine. The partition plan set up the region fairly even, with 55% going to Israel, and 45% going to Palestine, completely based on the demographics. By 1950, Arabs became the minority in the region also.

Now, I'm completely pro Israel. You point out that Israel kept taking land from Palestine, which is true. However, this resulted from wars started where the Arabs were the aggressors. The only time Israel was the aggressor in the Middle East was the Suez Crisis in 53 which was a very very minor conflict which saw barely any casualties. Back to the 48 Partition, the Arab League announced that any creation of a Jewish state in Palestine would result in immediate war, so this notion of a "two state compromise" doesn't work and never will work as long as Muslims exist in this world. Upon Israel's creation, the Arab League promptly invaded the new state causing the West- including Truman and the US to back Israel which helped them defeat the invaders. Thus Israel got more land they viewed as reparations for the Arab invasion.

Fast-forward to 1967, and Israeli intelligence in Syria, Jordan and Egypt revealed an impending attack on Israel, and executed a preemptive strike to tip the balance of power in their favor. This attack was definitely justified, if you were the leader of a nation who was always under the threat of annihilation dealt by the Arabs, you would've done the same to save the lives of your Country. The Arabs still invaded, and were repelled even harder than in 48, resulting in more Israeli control in Palestine as well as control of the Golan Heights in Syria, and the Sinai Peninsula, both deemed war reparations for the Arab aggression.

Now, here's the real reason to be pro-Israel: In 1973, Syria and Egypt invaded Israel on Yom Kippur, the equivalent of Christmas, completely catching Israel off guard. The combined armies of Egypt and Syria doubled the Israeli forces and made huge gains in the first few days but then Israel called up the reserves and paired with western support, drove both forces back deep. Israeli artillery actually was shelling Damascus by the end of the 20 day conflict. What the Arabs did here was about as low as possible; they did the equivalent of Japan bombing Pearl Harbor had Japan bombed on December 25th, yet the Arabs still lost. The Arabs literally have no moral high ground in this situation to try and get more land back in Palestine, and some of the Arab nations still hate Israel just as much.

The 1978 Camp David Accords were big though. Basically, Carter, the Israeli PM and a westernized Egyptian President all agreed to de-escalate the situation, and Israel returned the Sinai back to Egypt. Leadership like Anwar El Sadat is what its going to take to fix the Middle East, but with the evil Salafists in Saudi Arabia, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, a stronger Iraq and Iran, Hamas in Palestine, and other extremist Jihadists all over the place, it's only going to get worse and nothing will be fixed.

As for American support, Israel has said they would love to be independent from the US, but at this point it's not going to happen. The Iron Dome still costs way too much for Israel to operate it on their own. I do agree that we should slowly faze out our level of material support for them in peace time, and so does Israel. That being said, what Obama is doing is completely unacceptable. He has completely turned his back on Israel, and has given Iran the ability to create nukes. The same Iran that refuses to recognize Israel, is sworn to decimate Israel, and the same Iran that chants Death to America! Obama is clearly a Muslim sympathizer despite the fact that they have absolutely no moral high ground whatsoever. Going back 1000+ years, the song remains the same. Under Muslim reign and constant threat in the region, it wasn't safe for Jews to live there, which is why in a matter of years, the Middle East and North Africa went from being primarily Christian and Jewish, to almost completely Muslim. Convert or die doctrine anyone? The only Arabs that I sympathize for are the ones who are just tired of the fighting between Hamas and the Arabs vs Israel and the Jews, and there are plenty of them. It's really a sad situation that I really don't think will ever be fixed.
Emilrose
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2/10/2016 4:35:29 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
I take the personal view that a one-state solution is actually the best and most workable option--specifically in terms of ensuring that both groups develop a greater understanding and tolerance of each-other. Though Israel proposes to be more in favour of a two-state solution rather than a one-state one, all attempts show that this is a difficult and problematic change to make, as both sides have ultimately been unprepared to make concessions. There exists the practical questions on as to *who* gets what, what land officially belongs *where*, and *which* side has a greater desire for that land. This may well involve the dismantlement of many Jewish settlements and the subsequent reality of re-homing and re-building. More specifically, it doesn't solve the internal aspects (such as the relationship between Jews and Arabs) surrounding the conflict.

There's a lot of factors that should be considered, but I believe that is the primary one. Israel should look at assimilation of Palestinians. However, on the contrary to what (some) people appear to think Israel is actually a religious state. The fact that Judaism is used as the primary basis for its existence should be enough to offset any otherwise notion. Binyamin Netanyahu regularly refers to the Torah/Tanakh, and has repeatedly promoted the notion that Israel is the Jewish homeland, meant for no-one but Jews--as all other Israeli leaders have. This is one of the major problems in actually solving the situation and an obstacle in terms of acceptance and assimilation of Palestinians, as you have one group believing they are more entitled than the other...*only* because of religious belief. The issue of Zionism (which because of its base ideas, is connected to Judaism) is a prime example of this.
Commentator on a picture with David Cameron and a Cat: 'Amazing what you can achieve with photoshop these days. I'm sure that used to be a pig.'

Commentator on Hillary Clinton: 'If Clinton is now what passes for progressive, maybe this country deserves Trump.'

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58539672
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2/10/2016 7:00:38 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Benjamin Netanyahu and his Likud Party don't want peace between Israel and Palestine. They want security; a guarantee that they will never be attacked again. Given their history, I can barely blame them. So long as the party remains in power, the settlements will continue until Israel eventually pushes the Palestinians out of the region.

The sad part is this may actually be the more peaceful option in the extreme long run. Having two different cultural mindsets and beliefs in one area is one of the leading causes of violence (take Iraq for instance). But given that that would mean just sitting by and watching Israel dust palestine into the waist bin of history, many are against the idea.

In light of that, I think a three state solution is better. Establish the West bank as its own country (seeing as they have actually tried to make peace in the past) and leave the more violent Gaza Strip to rot.
Yassine
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2/11/2016 12:09:51 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/9/2016 9:20:59 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
I'm sure a lot of you have heard of this. So I thought I'd share my view on this.

Growing up,I was already in this pro-Israeli mindset (Around 2007). The news were always showing Hamas launching rockets, Bush giving speeches on how Israel is our friend and ally, and pictures of Hamas soldiers always scared me. At the time, I wasn't anti-Islam, but I still supported Israel since I thought terrorists were trying to attack Israel.

My views began to change after a couple years (about 2012). After learning more about Islam, I strongly became a pro-Israel supporter. Almost to the point where I justified it when they killed every Palestinian. The main reason I became even Pro-Israel, because I simply assumed this was the typical Islamic bullsh*t that happens pretty much everywhere else. When muslims don't like somebody or their views, they want to use force to get rid of them. The whole time I thought Palestine simply didn't like Jews, and that every country that surrounded Israel wanted to see them disappear. I supported Israel's right to defend herself.

One day, I decided to read more about the Palestine Israel issue. I learned that Arabs were living there for a very long time, and that the Jews only immigrated as a resettlement plan after WW2. I never understood why people say Israel is not a real country, because to began with, Palestine was not one either. So, the argument that Israel is not a legitimate state, is simply false. I simply read more about the wars and stuff, but what astonished me was that Israel was taking land from Palestine. At this point, it didn't make sense to me.

Israel was already an established country, and the Palestinians only had a small chunk to themselves. Looking at some maps, I realized Israel was simply taking more and more land, and not only that, they were kicking out the people who were living there! You can always pull out the private property card out, but the fact remains you kicked out people from their homes. This is when I started to seriously dislike the Israeli government policy. Obviously if your land is being taken away, you are going to fight back. Who can blame Palestine for fighting back? When you face losing your homes everyday you are going to fight back. The media here never shows that part of the story, it only shows Hamas firing rockets.

I realized I needed to put my personal views on Muslims and Islam aside, and see it as a political struggle. Whether or not Palestine is a savage country with barbaric laws, and horrible people, they should be allowed to own land for themselves. Israel should seriously back of it's aggressive territorial policies, and there should be a 2 state solution.

- Glad you did your due diligence, commendable outcome. Maybe, it's high time you extended this due diligence to Islam & Muslims too. You'll surely change your views, again.

Some questions that may be asked.

Q: Are you Pro-Israel of Pro-Palestine
A: I'm Pro-Israel in the sense I support their right to exist,

- Why?! On what ground does the Israeli state has a right to exist?

and I think they are the only sane and democratic country in the middle-east.

- The last thing Israel is, is a democratic country. It's an apartheid regime, you can't get farthest than that from democracy.

I do however support Palestine's right to exist in a 2 state solution.

- Why are you concerned about states rather than peoples? Which ought to entail the other, states, peoples? Or peoples, states?

Q: What should America do?

- The right thing to do, stand with the oppressed. The beneficial thing to do (for itself), seek its interests & perpetuate disability in the region. At least, that's the viable course of action in the short/medium-term.

A: America should stop blindly support Israel. I still never understand why we love Israel so much.

- Answer: the Jewish Lobby in the US.

We should support them, but not agree to everything they say. We should support a two state solution, and let Israel handle matters after.

- It's only called a 'solution' because the US calls is as such, it isn't actually a solution!

Q: A two state solution wouldn't' stop the violence

- It's not a solution though. The only actual solution is the demise of the Israeli apartheid regime, same as what happened in South Africa. Otherwise, a much less likely solution is the purge of the +500 million Muslims surrounding Israel.

It would stop all violence, but it certainly would fix a lot of problems. Even Palestine is continuing to attack Israel even after a 2 state solution, then I strongly support Israel's decision to use lethal force.

- You're looking at this backwards. According to you, the oppressor has a right to use lethal force if the oppressed is resisting. Sure, though, much less right than the oppressed has in resisting.
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augcaesarustus
Posts: 368
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2/11/2016 12:15:51 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/9/2016 9:20:59 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
I'm sure a lot of you have heard of this. So I thought I'd share my view on this.

Growing up,I was already in this pro-Israeli mindset (Around 2007). The news were always showing Hamas launching rockets, Bush giving speeches on how Israel is our friend and ally, and pictures of Hamas soldiers always scared me. At the time, I wasn't anti-Islam, but I still supported Israel since I thought terrorists were trying to attack Israel.

My views began to change after a couple years (about 2012). After learning more about Islam, I strongly became a pro-Israel supporter. Almost to the point where I justified it when they killed every Palestinian. The main reason I became even Pro-Israel, because I simply assumed this was the typical Islamic bullsh*t that happens pretty much everywhere else. When muslims don't like somebody or their views, they want to use force to get rid of them. The whole time I thought Palestine simply didn't like Jews, and that every country that surrounded Israel wanted to see them disappear. I supported Israel's right to defend herself.

One day, I decided to read more about the Palestine Israel issue. I learned that Arabs were living there for a very long time, and that the Jews only immigrated as a resettlement plan after WW2. I never understood why people say Israel is not a real country, because to began with, Palestine was not one either. So, the argument that Israel is not a legitimate state, is simply false. I simply read more about the wars and stuff, but what astonished me was that Israel was taking land from Palestine. At this point, it didn't make sense to me.

Israel was already an established country, and the Palestinians only had a small chunk to themselves. Looking at some maps, I realized Israel was simply taking more and more land, and not only that, they were kicking out the people who were living there! You can always pull out the private property card out, but the fact remains you kicked out people from their homes. This is when I started to seriously dislike the Israeli government policy. Obviously if your land is being taken away, you are going to fight back. Who can blame Palestine for fighting back? When you face losing your homes everyday you are going to fight back. The media here never shows that part of the story, it only shows Hamas firing rockets.

I realized I needed to put my personal views on Muslims and Islam aside, and see it as a political struggle. Whether or not Palestine is a savage country with barbaric laws, and horrible people, they should be allowed to own land for themselves. Israel should seriously back of it's aggressive territorial policies, and there should be a 2 state solution.

Some questions that may be asked.

Q: Are you Pro-Israel of Pro-Palestine

A: I'm Pro-Israel in the sense I support their right to exist, and I think they are the only sane and democratic country in the middle-east. I do however support Palestine's right to exist in a 2 state solution.

Q: What should America do?

A: America should stop blindly support Israel. I still never understand why we love Israel so much. We should support them, but not agree to everything they say. We should support a two state solution, and let Israel handle matters after.

Q: A two state solution wouldn't' stop the violence


It would stop all violence, but it certainly would fix a lot of problems. Even Palestine is continuing to attack Israel even after a 2 state solution, then I strongly support Israel's decision to use lethal force.


Links

http://america.aljazeera.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
https://www.washingtonpost.com...

I think you have taken a reasonable position on this issue. Israel is the only democratic, secular and prosperous nation in the Middle East. It also, by extension, has strong social institutions and the rule of law, both of which are lacking in other Middle Eastern countries.
Yassine
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2/11/2016 12:15:52 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/10/2016 4:35:29 AM, Emilrose wrote:
I take the personal view that a one-state solution is actually the best and most workable option--specifically in terms of ensuring that both groups develop a greater understanding and tolerance of each-other. Though Israel proposes to be more in favour of a two-state solution rather than a one-state one, all attempts show that this is a difficult and problematic change to make, as both sides have ultimately been unprepared to make concessions. There exists the practical questions on as to *who* gets what, what land officially belongs *where*, and *which* side has a greater desire for that land. This may well involve the dismantlement of many Jewish settlements and the subsequent reality of re-homing and re-building. More specifically, it doesn't solve the internal aspects (such as the relationship between Jews and Arabs) surrounding the conflict.

There's a lot of factors that should be considered, but I believe that is the primary one. Israel should look at assimilation of Palestinians. However, on the contrary to what (some) people appear to think Israel is actually a religious state. The fact that Judaism is used as the primary basis for its existence should be enough to offset any otherwise notion. Binyamin Netanyahu regularly refers to the Torah/Tanakh, and has repeatedly promoted the notion that Israel is the Jewish homeland, meant for no-one but Jews--as all other Israeli leaders have. This is one of the major problems in actually solving the situation and an obstacle in terms of acceptance and assimilation of Palestinians, as you have one group believing they are more entitled than the other...*only* because of religious belief. The issue of Zionism (which because of its base ideas, is connected to Judaism) is a prime example of this.

- What do you think about a one-state solution? That is, dismantling the Israeli Zionist regime, abolishing the Jewish state, & inaugurating a unified state, based on multi-racial democratic elections.
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tajshar2k
Posts: 2,385
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2/11/2016 12:36:19 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/11/2016 12:09:51 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/9/2016 9:20:59 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
I'm sure a lot of you have heard of this. So I thought I'd share my view on this.

Growing up,I was already in this pro-Israeli mindset (Around 2007). The news were always showing Hamas launching rockets, Bush giving speeches on how Israel is our friend and ally, and pictures of Hamas soldiers always scared me. At the time, I wasn't anti-Islam, but I still supported Israel since I thought terrorists were trying to attack Israel.

My views began to change after a couple years (about 2012). After learning more about Islam, I strongly became a pro-Israel supporter. Almost to the point where I justified it when they killed every Palestinian. The main reason I became even Pro-Israel, because I simply assumed this was the typical Islamic bullsh*t that happens pretty much everywhere else. When muslims don't like somebody or their views, they want to use force to get rid of them. The whole time I thought Palestine simply didn't like Jews, and that every country that surrounded Israel wanted to see them disappear. I supported Israel's right to defend herself.

One day, I decided to read more about the Palestine Israel issue. I learned that Arabs were living there for a very long time, and that the Jews only immigrated as a resettlement plan after WW2. I never understood why people say Israel is not a real country, because to began with, Palestine was not one either. So, the argument that Israel is not a legitimate state, is simply false. I simply read more about the wars and stuff, but what astonished me was that Israel was taking land from Palestine. At this point, it didn't make sense to me.

Israel was already an established country, and the Palestinians only had a small chunk to themselves. Looking at some maps, I realized Israel was simply taking more and more land, and not only that, they were kicking out the people who were living there! You can always pull out the private property card out, but the fact remains you kicked out people from their homes. This is when I started to seriously dislike the Israeli government policy. Obviously if your land is being taken away, you are going to fight back. Who can blame Palestine for fighting back? When you face losing your homes everyday you are going to fight back. The media here never shows that part of the story, it only shows Hamas firing rockets.

I realized I needed to put my personal views on Muslims and Islam aside, and see it as a political struggle. Whether or not Palestine is a savage country with barbaric laws, and horrible people, they should be allowed to own land for themselves. Israel should seriously back of it's aggressive territorial policies, and there should be a 2 state solution.

- Glad you did your due diligence, commendable outcome. Maybe, it's high time you extended this due diligence to Islam & Muslims too. You'll surely change your views, again.

LOL. I'll will personally send you 100 dollars via paypal if that happens.

Some questions that may be asked.

Q: Are you Pro-Israel of Pro-Palestine
A: I'm Pro-Israel in the sense I support their right to exist,

- Why?! On what ground does the Israeli state has a right to exist?

What the he!l did you read this whole time?!


and I think they are the only sane and democratic country in the middle-east.

- The last thing Israel is, is a democratic country. It's an apartheid regime, you can't get farthest than that from democracy.

It's certainly no America, but compared to it's neighbor's it is much better. You are exaggerating it's apartheid accusations, but I'm not surprised since you are a muslim.

I do however support Palestine's right to exist in a 2 state solution.

- Why are you concerned about states rather than peoples? Which ought to entail the other, states, peoples? Or peoples, states?

If I care about their right to exist as a country, then I obviously care about them, since the whole point of their struggle is that Israel is taking land away, and killing them.

Q: What should America do?

- Bulls*it. Just in typical Islamic fashion, every single muslim country America has backed has either given it the middle finger, or is being a pain in it's a$$. That includes Saudi Arabia! I will never support my country supporting any country in the middle-east ever again!

A: America should stop blindly support Israel. I still never understand why we love Israel so much.

- : That's true, but that's not the only reason. If you actually read statistics, Jews have had the most hate crimes against them in America, so they aren't as popular as the news portrays them.
We should support them, but not agree to everything they say. We should support a two state solution, and let Israel handle matters after.

- It's only called a 'solution' because the US calls is as such, it isn't actually a solution!

Can we please be realistic, and understand Israel will never go away? Israel has already beaten the sh*it out of Syria, Egypt, and neighboring countries, so either there is going to be a 1 state solution or a 2 state solution. Take your pick.

Q: A two state solution wouldn't' stop the violence

- It's not a solution though. The only actual solution is the demise of the Israeli apartheid regime, same as what happened in South Africa. Otherwise, a much less likely solution is the purge of the +500 million Muslims surrounding Israel.

What?

It would stop all violence, but it certainly would fix a lot of problems. Even Palestine is continuing to attack Israel even after a 2 state solution, then I strongly support Israel's decision to use lethal force.

- You're looking at this backwards. According to you, the oppressor has a right to use lethal force if the oppressed is resisting. Sure, though, much less right than the oppressed has in resisting.

Read what I said. I'm saying if they agree to a two state solution, and Palestine attacks (which it likely will) then Israel will reserve the right to use lethal force.

I'm not looking to respond again. You are already in an incredibly biased mindset, so there is no point arguing. We disagree and that's that.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
Yassine
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2/11/2016 1:22:35 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/11/2016 12:36:19 AM, tajshar2k wrote:

I'm not looking to respond again. You are already in an incredibly reasonable & informed mindset,

- Indeed.

so there is no point arguing. We disagree and that's that.

- Indeed.
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tajshar2k
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2/11/2016 1:23:11 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/11/2016 1:22:35 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/11/2016 12:36:19 AM, tajshar2k wrote:

I'm not looking to respond again. You are already in an incredibly reasonable & informed mindset,

- Indeed.
Just proves my point.

so there is no point arguing. We disagree and that's that.

- Indeed.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
Yassine
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2/11/2016 1:25:19 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/11/2016 1:23:11 AM, tajshar2k wrote:

Just proves my point.

- That I am "in an incredibly reasonable & informed mindset", sure.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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