Total Posts:69|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Apple Ordered to Unlock Terrorist's iPhone

Midnight1131
Posts: 1,643
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 4:24:40 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
After the San Bernadino attacks one of the terrorists left behind a work iPhone, which is locked by a password and after a certain amount of failed unlock attempts deletes all the data inside the phone. The FBI, despite all their resources and money, have failed to open the phone. So now the government is going as far as to order Apple to create a back door to it's own security systems.

What do you think about the whole situation, and who do you support?
#GaryJohnson2016
#TaxationisTheft
#TheftisTaxation
mc9
Posts: 1,034
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 4:29:23 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 4:24:40 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
After the San Bernadino attacks one of the terrorists left behind a work iPhone, which is locked by a password and after a certain amount of failed unlock attempts deletes all the data inside the phone. The FBI, despite all their resources and money, have failed to open the phone. So now the government is going as far as to order Apple to create a back door to it's own security systems.

What do you think about the whole situation, and who do you support?

Apple, it's a slippery slope, when one phone can be broken into, the USFG won't stop there.
Midnight1131
Posts: 1,643
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 5:09:30 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 4:29:23 AM, mc9 wrote:
At 2/20/2016 4:24:40 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
After the San Bernadino attacks one of the terrorists left behind a work iPhone, which is locked by a password and after a certain amount of failed unlock attempts deletes all the data inside the phone. The FBI, despite all their resources and money, have failed to open the phone. So now the government is going as far as to order Apple to create a back door to it's own security systems.

What do you think about the whole situation, and who do you support?

Apple, it's a slippery slope, when one phone can be broken into, the USFG won't stop there.

Agreed. It sets a terrible precedent for future governments to look back to, where Apple was forced to weaken the security for every iPhone user due to a court order.
#GaryJohnson2016
#TaxationisTheft
#TheftisTaxation
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,251
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 5:15:21 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 5:09:30 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
At 2/20/2016 4:29:23 AM, mc9 wrote:
At 2/20/2016 4:24:40 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
After the San Bernadino attacks one of the terrorists left behind a work iPhone, which is locked by a password and after a certain amount of failed unlock attempts deletes all the data inside the phone. The FBI, despite all their resources and money, have failed to open the phone. So now the government is going as far as to order Apple to create a back door to it's own security systems.

What do you think about the whole situation, and who do you support?

Apple, it's a slippery slope, when one phone can be broken into, the USFG won't stop there.

Agreed. It sets a terrible precedent for future governments to look back to, where Apple was forced to weaken the security for every iPhone user due to a court order.

Not much different from ordering a bank to unlock a bank account.
Midnight1131
Posts: 1,643
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 5:16:49 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 5:15:21 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
Not much different from ordering a bank to unlock a bank account.

Except Apple isn't going to unlock this one phone. They're being asked to develop a program which would serve as a backdoor to all iPhones that use Apple's encryption technology.
#GaryJohnson2016
#TaxationisTheft
#TheftisTaxation
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,251
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 5:28:05 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 5:16:49 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
At 2/20/2016 5:15:21 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
Not much different from ordering a bank to unlock a bank account.

Except Apple isn't going to unlock this one phone. They're being asked to develop a program which would serve as a backdoor to all iPhones that use Apple's encryption technology.

well then apple should just unlock it
Torton
Posts: 988
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 5:34:37 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 5:09:30 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
At 2/20/2016 4:29:23 AM, mc9 wrote:
At 2/20/2016 4:24:40 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
After the San Bernadino attacks one of the terrorists left behind a work iPhone, which is locked by a password and after a certain amount of failed unlock attempts deletes all the data inside the phone. The FBI, despite all their resources and money, have failed to open the phone. So now the government is going as far as to order Apple to create a back door to it's own security systems.

What do you think about the whole situation, and who do you support?

Apple, it's a slippery slope, when one phone can be broken into, the USFG won't stop there.

Agreed. It sets a terrible precedent for future governments to look back to, where Apple was forced to weaken the security for every iPhone user due to a court order.
Completely agree. McAfee even offered to crack the phone, so a backdoor wouldn't be necessary.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 5:41:04 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 4:24:40 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
After the San Bernadino attacks one of the terrorists left behind a work iPhone, which is locked by a password and after a certain amount of failed unlock attempts deletes all the data inside the phone. The FBI, despite all their resources and money, have failed to open the phone. So now the government is going as far as to order Apple to create a back door to it's own security systems.

What do you think about the whole situation, and who do you support?

Its a very complex question. Not even a tech question at all. The government is asking a private company to break security under extraordinary circumstances. If I were in the Apple legal team, regardless of any question before me I would ask, what the f**k. NO!
Death23
Posts: 781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 5:48:22 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 4:24:40 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
After the San Bernadino attacks one of the terrorists left behind a work iPhone, which is locked by a password and after a certain amount of failed unlock attempts deletes all the data inside the phone. The FBI, despite all their resources and money, have failed to open the phone. So now the government is going as far as to order Apple to create a back door to it's own security systems.

What do you think about the whole situation, and who do you support?

Yeah I heard about this one. It goes to show that Apple can still unlock the phones despite its prior claims that the phones cannot be unlocked because Apple's position on this issue has been "I don't want to do it" rather than "I can't do it".
Midnight1131
Posts: 1,643
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 5:56:36 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 5:28:05 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 2/20/2016 5:16:49 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
At 2/20/2016 5:15:21 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
Not much different from ordering a bank to unlock a bank account.

Except Apple isn't going to unlock this one phone. They're being asked to develop a program which would serve as a backdoor to all iPhones that use Apple's encryption technology.

well then apple should just unlock it

They can't without developing a way to bypass the entire encryption system.
#GaryJohnson2016
#TaxationisTheft
#TheftisTaxation
Midnight1131
Posts: 1,643
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 5:58:06 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 5:48:22 AM, Death23 wrote:
At 2/20/2016 4:24:40 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
After the San Bernadino attacks one of the terrorists left behind a work iPhone, which is locked by a password and after a certain amount of failed unlock attempts deletes all the data inside the phone. The FBI, despite all their resources and money, have failed to open the phone. So now the government is going as far as to order Apple to create a back door to it's own security systems.

What do you think about the whole situation, and who do you support?

Yeah I heard about this one. It goes to show that Apple can still unlock the phones despite its prior claims that the phones cannot be unlocked because Apple's position on this issue has been "I don't want to do it" rather than "I can't do it".

I mean, the fact that the FBI couldn't unlock it and literally had to go to Apple to ask them to develop a way to do it probably means they're still pretty tough to unlock.
#GaryJohnson2016
#TaxationisTheft
#TheftisTaxation
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,251
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 5:58:10 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 5:56:36 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
At 2/20/2016 5:28:05 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 2/20/2016 5:16:49 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
At 2/20/2016 5:15:21 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
Not much different from ordering a bank to unlock a bank account.

Except Apple isn't going to unlock this one phone. They're being asked to develop a program which would serve as a backdoor to all iPhones that use Apple's encryption technology.

well then apple should just unlock it

They can't without developing a way to bypass the entire encryption system.

Well banks don't just weld vaults shut.
Midnight1131
Posts: 1,643
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 5:59:41 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 5:58:10 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
Well banks don't just weld vaults shut.

Bank vaults don't consist of private information the government should keep it's nose out of.
#GaryJohnson2016
#TaxationisTheft
#TheftisTaxation
Torton
Posts: 988
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 5:59:44 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 5:58:10 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 2/20/2016 5:56:36 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
At 2/20/2016 5:28:05 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 2/20/2016 5:16:49 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
At 2/20/2016 5:15:21 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
Not much different from ordering a bank to unlock a bank account.

Except Apple isn't going to unlock this one phone. They're being asked to develop a program which would serve as a backdoor to all iPhones that use Apple's encryption technology.

well then apple should just unlock it

They can't without developing a way to bypass the entire encryption system.

Well banks don't just weld vaults shut.
Jesus Christ...
Death23
Posts: 781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 6:02:07 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 5:58:06 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
At 2/20/2016 5:48:22 AM, Death23 wrote:
At 2/20/2016 4:24:40 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
After the San Bernadino attacks one of the terrorists left behind a work iPhone, which is locked by a password and after a certain amount of failed unlock attempts deletes all the data inside the phone. The FBI, despite all their resources and money, have failed to open the phone. So now the government is going as far as to order Apple to create a back door to it's own security systems.

What do you think about the whole situation, and who do you support?

Yeah I heard about this one. It goes to show that Apple can still unlock the phones despite its prior claims that the phones cannot be unlocked because Apple's position on this issue has been "I don't want to do it" rather than "I can't do it".

I mean, the fact that the FBI couldn't unlock it and literally had to go to Apple to ask them to develop a way to do it probably means they're still pretty tough to unlock.

I don't think it's too tough. They could probably just release an iOS update and update the phone without unlocking it. They've had back doors in before. I imagine that they could just recycle the old back door in to a new update. What should really be done is to make it impossible to update the phone without unlocking it first. That would be better.
slo1
Posts: 4,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 4:49:13 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 4:24:40 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
After the San Bernadino attacks one of the terrorists left behind a work iPhone, which is locked by a password and after a certain amount of failed unlock attempts deletes all the data inside the phone. The FBI, despite all their resources and money, have failed to open the phone. So now the government is going as far as to order Apple to create a back door to it's own security systems.

What do you think about the whole situation, and who do you support?

What exactly is the government asking for?

1. To get access to this one phone?
2. To get future acess to any cell phone in the future without apple'store support?
3. Why can't they just ask apple to retrieve the data on that one phone versus give them access?
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 5:27:43 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Argument's made by proponents of privacy over national security seem to stem from a worldview where intelligence agents are lurking in the background jerking off at your phone sex conversations or sitting around at lunch discussing your porn-site browsing history. I hate to inform you but unless you are planning for the next terrorist attack, no one cares about you.

Unlock the damn phone.
Torton
Posts: 988
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 6:02:43 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 5:27:43 PM, Double_R wrote:
Argument's made by proponents of privacy over national security seem to stem from a worldview where intelligence agents are lurking in the background jerking off at your phone sex conversations or sitting around at lunch discussing your porn-site browsing history. I hate to inform you but unless you are planning for the next terrorist attack, no one cares about you.

Unlock the damn phone.
This is really dangerous reasoning.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 6:03:12 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 6:02:43 PM, Torton wrote:
At 2/20/2016 5:27:43 PM, Double_R wrote:
Argument's made by proponents of privacy over national security seem to stem from a worldview where intelligence agents are lurking in the background jerking off at your phone sex conversations or sitting around at lunch discussing your porn-site browsing history. I hate to inform you but unless you are planning for the next terrorist attack, no one cares about you.

Unlock the damn phone.
This is really dangerous reasoning.

Enlighten me.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 6:03:13 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Apple's position is that if they develop the software to help unlock the phone the security of other apple customers would be comprised. That is an implausible assertion that needs to be demonstrated in court. And for the record, Apple pays hardly any taxes and employs most of its workers overseas despite greatly benefiting from past government spending programs (the vast majority of people involved in making Apple products are not included in the official payroll). That's mainly why the company is so incredibly profitable. Now when the government comes to them for help they're like "nah, slippery slope".
slo1
Posts: 4,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 7:06:07 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 6:03:13 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Apple's position is that if they develop the software to help unlock the phone the security of other apple customers would be comprised. That is an implausible assertion that needs to be demonstrated in court. And for the record, Apple pays hardly any taxes and employs most of its workers overseas despite greatly benefiting from past government spending programs (the vast majority of people involved in making Apple products are not included in the official payroll). That's mainly why the company is so incredibly profitable. Now when the government comes to them for help they're like "nah, slippery slope".

Well if Apple submits on this one then there is no such thing as encryption ever again. Why is it that Apple should be held liable for a phone thy manufactured that a criminal used to their advaantage, but a gun manufacturer is not held liable for a gun they manufactured which was used to commit the crime.

This is an assault of freedom in the name of security.
Blade-of-Truth
Posts: 5,025
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 8:06:42 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
I fully support Apple, although I have a tough time thinking this isn't all just publicity considering that Edward Snowden revealed how our phones are already able to be tapped and "turned on" remotely. If anything, this does pertain to the FBI, whereas Snowden was talking about the NSA and CIA. These are very different organizations. Perhaps the FBI wishes to have the same access that the NSA and CIA have already acquired through other means.

It would set a dangerous precedent though, and for that reason specifically - I support Apple.

On another note - This is also the first issue that I completely disagree with Donald Trump on.
Debate.org Deputy Vote Moderator
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DDO Voting Guide: http://www.debate.org...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Need a judge on your debate? Nominate me! http://www.debate.org...
Raisor
Posts: 4,459
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 8:15:45 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 5:27:43 PM, Double_R wrote:
Argument's made by proponents of privacy over national security seem to stem from a worldview where intelligence agents are lurking in the background jerking off at your phone sex conversations or sitting around at lunch discussing your porn-site browsing history. I hate to inform you but unless you are planning for the next terrorist attack, no one cares about you.

Unlock the damn phone.

So why don't we just get rid of the 4th amendment altogether, since the government is only interested in stopping crime? Why have any privacy protection at all?
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 8:34:41 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 8:15:45 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 2/20/2016 5:27:43 PM, Double_R wrote:
Argument's made by proponents of privacy over national security seem to stem from a worldview where intelligence agents are lurking in the background jerking off at your phone sex conversations or sitting around at lunch discussing your porn-site browsing history. I hate to inform you but unless you are planning for the next terrorist attack, no one cares about you.

Unlock the damn phone.

So why don't we just get rid of the 4th amendment altogether, since the government is only interested in stopping crime? Why have any privacy protection at all?

I don't believe anyone cares enough about me to listen to my phone sex conversations =/= I don't care about my rights against unreasonable searches and seizures.

The man is dead, a proven terrorist who killed 14 people, and a possible link to other terrorists. If the 4th amendment is the reason why the authorities can't get the info off of his cell phone then that is a problem.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 8:35:12 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 7:06:07 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 2/20/2016 6:03:13 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Apple's position is that if they develop the software to help unlock the phone the security of other apple customers would be comprised. That is an implausible assertion that needs to be demonstrated in court. And for the record, Apple pays hardly any taxes and employs most of its workers overseas despite greatly benefiting from past government spending programs (the vast majority of people involved in making Apple products are not included in the official payroll). That's mainly why the company is so incredibly profitable. Now when the government comes to them for help they're like "nah, slippery slope".

Well if Apple submits on this one then there is no such thing as encryption ever again. Why is it that Apple should be held liable for a phone thy manufactured that a criminal used to their advaantage, but a gun manufacturer is not held liable for a gun they manufactured which was used to commit the crime.

This is an assault of freedom in the name of security.

Yes, because the choice is between no security and impossible-to-unlock-even-for-the-FBI. Apple is not "being held liable" for selling a phone to a terrorist. They're being held liable for not helping them unlock the phone after the fact. The FBI is going to Apple because it's an Apple phone, and they're obviously in the best position to unlock it. It's not a punishment, and Apple could easily fulfill their request. Your gun analogy is bad. Gun manufacturers obviously shouldn't face charges when a criminal uses one of their guns. But let's say the police, for whatever reason, need access to some of the gun manufacturer's information in order to proceed with a criminal case. Are you telling me that they don't have to release that information to the government because of their "right to privacy"?
Raisor
Posts: 4,459
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 8:43:51 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 8:34:41 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 2/20/2016 8:15:45 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 2/20/2016 5:27:43 PM, Double_R wrote:
Argument's made by proponents of privacy over national security seem to stem from a worldview where intelligence agents are lurking in the background jerking off at your phone sex conversations or sitting around at lunch discussing your porn-site browsing history. I hate to inform you but unless you are planning for the next terrorist attack, no one cares about you.

Unlock the damn phone.

So why don't we just get rid of the 4th amendment altogether, since the government is only interested in stopping crime? Why have any privacy protection at all?

I don't believe anyone cares enough about me to listen to my phone sex conversations =/= I don't care about my rights against unreasonable searches and seizures.

They do seem equivalent to me.

Why do you care about unreasonable searches? Why do those reasons not also apply to electronic surveillance?

FYI, the government cared a lot about MLK's sex life. It isn't just about YOUR privacy, it is about the privacy of the populace as a whole, and how the government (or other parties) can leverage personal information against individuals.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The man is dead, a proven terrorist who killed 14 people, and a possible link to other terrorists. If the 4th amendment is the reason why the authorities can't get the info off of his cell phone then that is a problem.

The issue is whether Apple's assistance effectively destroys the security of its existing privacy protections. I brought up the 4th amendment only as a parallel argument that I think is supported by your line of argument.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 9:14:23 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
It's sort of like selling someone a safe and then refusing to let the police see the key mold when it's discovered that the safe is being used to store stolen items. If the police should be allowed to seize property as "evidence" then I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed access to the key mold. Both are just instances of putting rights aside in the interest of a criminal case. The FBI's only request is that Apple install some software onto this one phone so it can be unlocked. Apple admits that they have the ability to do it, so it's not like anything would be "lost" in the process. Were people really under the impression that under no circumstances could the information on their phone be extracted? Personally, I would have just assumed that the FBI could read anything I put on my phone, unless I went to the trouble of encrypting it myself.
mc9
Posts: 1,034
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 9:16:59 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 5:09:30 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
At 2/20/2016 4:29:23 AM, mc9 wrote:
At 2/20/2016 4:24:40 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
After the San Bernadino attacks one of the terrorists left behind a work iPhone, which is locked by a password and after a certain amount of failed unlock attempts deletes all the data inside the phone. The FBI, despite all their resources and money, have failed to open the phone. So now the government is going as far as to order Apple to create a back door to it's own security systems.

What do you think about the whole situation, and who do you support?

Apple, it's a slippery slope, when one phone can be broken into, the USFG won't stop there.

Agreed. It sets a terrible precedent for future governments to look back to, where Apple was forced to weaken the security for every iPhone user due to a court order.

Besides, this would mean China would want to have the backdoor
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,681
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2016 9:35:55 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 4:24:40 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
After the San Bernadino attacks one of the terrorists left behind a work iPhone, which is locked by a password and after a certain amount of failed unlock attempts deletes all the data inside the phone. The FBI, despite all their resources and money, have failed to open the phone. So now the government is going as far as to order Apple to create a back door to it's own security systems.

What do you think about the whole situation, and who do you support?

The Iphone is an unpatriotic american. How dare you refuse to open yourself to trial?! The IPhone is obviously a terrorist an should be sent to Guantanamo Bay!
"Praise Allah."
~YYW