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What is wrong with a wall?

KingoSchenk
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2/20/2016 8:47:19 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
What is wrong with building a border wall along the Mexican border? Please put Donald Trump aside, as he is preventing other politicians from taking a strong position on the topic.

A Wall:
People call it, "unethical", but in fact, it is the most ethical thing you can do. Some Mexicans have been waiting for months to come to America, and they are held up at the border for legal migration. While this is happening, illegals are coming in for free, much faster, and with drugs. A wall gives the border security ultimate power to keep out the bad guys and let in the good ones. And once we keep the bad ones out, we will be able to let migrants in much faster.

As far as the costs go, it would cost 10 billion total to make the wall. It is without a doubt, a amazing price to end our drug epidemic. You should note that 10 billion isn't much off our 718 billion military spending.

Please rebuttal to the things I said. I want to know what the other side is thinking.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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2/20/2016 10:28:51 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 8:47:19 PM, KingoSchenk wrote:
What is wrong with building a border wall along the Mexican border? Please put Donald Trump aside, as he is preventing other politicians from taking a strong position on the topic.

A Wall:
People call it, "unethical", but in fact, it is the most ethical thing you can do. Some Mexicans have been waiting for months to come to America, and they are held up at the border for legal migration. While this is happening, illegals are coming in for free, much faster, and with drugs. A wall gives the border security ultimate power to keep out the bad guys and let in the good ones. And once we keep the bad ones out, we will be able to let migrants in much faster.

As far as the costs go, it would cost 10 billion total to make the wall. It is without a doubt, a amazing price to end our drug epidemic. You should note that 10 billion isn't much off our 718 billion military spending.


Please rebuttal to the things I said. I want to know what the other side is thinking.

1) Ineffective
Most border patrol, locals, and experts know of the issues with the walls. They are only useful to move traffic around, not stop anything

2) Miss apportion of money
Money needed for better tech, more patrol etc are diverted to a financial boondoggle

3) Poor optics
Doing this is bad optics for the American people, for people around the world.
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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2/20/2016 10:41:50 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 8:47:19 PM, KingoSchenk wrote:
What is wrong with building a border wall along the Mexican border? Please put Donald Trump aside, as he is preventing other politicians from taking a strong position on the topic.

A Wall:
People call it, "unethical", but in fact, it is the most ethical thing you can do. Some Mexicans have been waiting for months to come to America, and they are held up at the border for legal migration. While this is happening, illegals are coming in for free, much faster, and with drugs. A wall gives the border security ultimate power to keep out the bad guys and let in the good ones. And once we keep the bad ones out, we will be able to let migrants in much faster.

A wall doesnt prevent people from going under the wall via tunnel, around the wall via the sea, over the wall via plane, and it also doesnt stop people who come in on work visas and dont leave after they expire, which is how 40% of illegal immigrants come into the country

As far as the costs go, it would cost 10 billion total to make the wall.

They said the Iraq War would cost about 50 to 60 billion to fight and it turned out to be 1 trillion. Something tells me that people in favor of building the wall are really lowballing the price to trick people into thinking it will be a breeze when it wont

It is without a doubt, a amazing price to end our drug epidemic.

LOL. Okay, THAT is hilarious..... In that its a hilariously stupid thing to believe.

A border wall wont end the drug war because drugs are easier to smuggle into the country than people. In fact a lot of drugs are grown INSIDE the US where a wall on the border cant do jack sh** to keep it out. Youd have to have no idea how the drug war works to believe a border wall would somehow end it.
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beng100
Posts: 1,055
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2/20/2016 10:55:18 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 8:47:19 PM, KingoSchenk wrote:
What is wrong with building a border wall along the Mexican border? Please put Donald Trump aside, as he is preventing other politicians from taking a strong position on the topic.

A Wall:
People call it, "unethical", but in fact, it is the most ethical thing you can do. Some Mexicans have been waiting for months to come to America, and they are held up at the border for legal migration. While this is happening, illegals are coming in for free, much faster, and with drugs. A wall gives the border security ultimate power to keep out the bad guys and let in the good ones. And once we keep the bad ones out, we will be able to let migrants in much faster.

As far as the costs go, it would cost 10 billion total to make the wall. It is without a doubt, a amazing price to end our drug epidemic. You should note that 10 billion isn't much off our 718 billion military spending.


Please rebuttal to the things I said. I want to know what the other side is thinking.

A wall should be built. It is relativelt cheap and will help reduce illegal migration and drug smuggling and make enering the usa illegally and smuggling drugs more difficult. Its important to have a strong physical boundary to make getting through as difficult as possible. I agree it is ethical.

However many strategies can be employed by criminals to get round it so your claims it will end the drug epedemic is incorrect. Criminals dig tunnels under walls, use whacky ways of getting stuff over the top of walls (although with adequate border staff watching the border this could be stopped) and use boats and submarines to take drugs into the USA by sea. Some criminals also fly drones or light aircraft over the border to drop off drugs. Some drugs are also grown in America itself.
mc9
Posts: 1,033
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2/20/2016 10:57:41 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 10:55:18 PM, beng100 wrote:
At 2/20/2016 8:47:19 PM, KingoSchenk wrote:
What is wrong with building a border wall along the Mexican border? Please put Donald Trump aside, as he is preventing other politicians from taking a strong position on the topic.

A Wall:
People call it, "unethical", but in fact, it is the most ethical thing you can do. Some Mexicans have been waiting for months to come to America, and they are held up at the border for legal migration. While this is happening, illegals are coming in for free, much faster, and with drugs. A wall gives the border security ultimate power to keep out the bad guys and let in the good ones. And once we keep the bad ones out, we will be able to let migrants in much faster.

As far as the costs go, it would cost 10 billion total to make the wall. It is without a doubt, a amazing price to end our drug epidemic. You should note that 10 billion isn't much off our 718 billion military spending.


Please rebuttal to the things I said. I want to know what the other side is thinking.

A wall should be built. It is relativelt cheap and will help reduce illegal migration and drug smuggling and make enering the usa illegally and smuggling drugs more difficult. Its important to have a strong physical boundary to make getting through as difficult as possible. I agree it is ethical.

However many strategies can be employed by criminals to get round it so your claims it will end the drug epedemic is incorrect. Criminals dig tunnels under walls, use whacky ways of getting stuff over the top of walls (although with adequate border staff watching the border this could be stopped) and use boats and submarines to take drugs into the USA by sea. Some criminals also fly drones or light aircraft over the border to drop off drugs. Some drugs are also grown in America itself.

They could also just chuck them over to someone on the other side.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/20/2016 11:04:51 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Building a wall is perhaps the single dumbest policy idea out there. Its costs entirely outweigh its benefits, so even if it was moral and ethical, it's economically ridiculous. It's even logically ridiculous, since no one thinks it'll be impenetrable. Mexico is not the primary source of immigration to the United States, legal or otherwise. Trump's wall is more fantastical than anything Sanders could even dream about.

http://www.cnbc.com...
http://www.nationalmemo.com...
https://www.washingtonpost.com...
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,726
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2/21/2016 12:49:48 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Mexicans are elite tunnel-diggers. Just sayin.
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mc9
Posts: 1,033
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2/21/2016 12:51:58 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 11:04:51 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Building a wall is perhaps the single dumbest policy idea out there. Its costs entirely outweigh its benefits, so even if it was moral and ethical, it's economically ridiculous. It's even logically ridiculous, since no one thinks it'll be impenetrable. Mexico is not the primary source of immigration to the United States, legal or otherwise. Trump's wall is more fantastical than anything Sanders could even dream about.

http://www.cnbc.com...
http://www.nationalmemo.com...
https://www.washingtonpost.com...

Sigged
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/21/2016 1:54:27 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/21/2016 12:51:58 AM, mc9 wrote:
At 2/20/2016 11:04:51 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Building a wall is perhaps the single dumbest policy idea out there. Its costs entirely outweigh its benefits, so even if it was moral and ethical, it's economically ridiculous. It's even logically ridiculous, since no one thinks it'll be impenetrable. Mexico is not the primary source of immigration to the United States, legal or otherwise. Trump's wall is more fantastical than anything Sanders could even dream about.

http://www.cnbc.com...
http://www.nationalmemo.com...
https://www.washingtonpost.com...

Sigged

Thanks :-)
Dark-one
Posts: 211
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2/21/2016 4:47:40 AM
Posted: 9 months ago

A wall doesnt prevent people from going under the wall via tunnel, around the wall via the sea, over the wall via plane, and it also doesnt stop people who come in on work visas and dont leave after they expire, which is how 40% of illegal immigrants come into the country



I'd like to point that one of Trumps policy points is to be more strict with visas-- tracking them so we can come and get them if they overstay.

Of course there is the matter of HOW they are tracked and what not.

...just sayin. Not really supporting him one way or the other.
Dark-one
Posts: 211
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2/21/2016 4:53:51 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 11:04:51 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Building a wall is perhaps the single dumbest policy idea out there. Its costs entirely outweigh its benefits, so even if it was moral and ethical, it's economically ridiculous. It's even logically ridiculous, since no one thinks it'll be impenetrable. Mexico is not the primary source of immigration to the United States, legal or otherwise. Trump's wall is more fantastical than anything Sanders could even dream about.

http://www.cnbc.com...
http://www.nationalmemo.com...
https://www.washingtonpost.com...

This is not commenting on Trump or walling.

For the future, please do not directly reference media groups like cnbc and the washington post. I've read a few articles where they tried to convince the reader of something that was total bs.

If you do, go to the sources they site. If you can't make sense of it, then you can't make sense of it and that's that.
xus00HAY
Posts: 1,378
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2/21/2016 5:02:57 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
If there was something wrong with a wall, they would not have a big wall surrounding Vatican City.
What we should get is 2 fences on the border and put vicious guard dogs in the space between the fences.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/21/2016 11:55:15 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/21/2016 4:53:51 AM, Dark-one wrote:
At 2/20/2016 11:04:51 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Building a wall is perhaps the single dumbest policy idea out there. Its costs entirely outweigh its benefits, so even if it was moral and ethical, it's economically ridiculous. It's even logically ridiculous, since no one thinks it'll be impenetrable. Mexico is not the primary source of immigration to the United States, legal or otherwise. Trump's wall is more fantastical than anything Sanders could even dream about.

http://www.cnbc.com...
http://www.nationalmemo.com...
https://www.washingtonpost.com...

This is not commenting on Trump or walling.

For the future, please do not directly reference media groups like cnbc and the washington post. I've read a few articles where they tried to convince the reader of something that was total bs.

If you do, go to the sources they site. If you can't make sense of it, then you can't make sense of it and that's that.

The Washington Post and CNBC are widely recognized as reputable sources.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
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2/21/2016 3:28:25 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/21/2016 5:02:57 AM, xus00HAY wrote:
If there was something wrong with a wall, they would not have a big wall surrounding Vatican City.
What we should get is 2 fences on the border and put vicious guard dogs in the space between the fences.

You still need mounts for cameras, seismic sensors, and automated machine-gun turrets.
Objectivity
Posts: 1,073
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2/21/2016 5:13:13 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 10:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/20/2016 8:47:19 PM, KingoSchenk wrote:
What is wrong with building a border wall along the Mexican border? Please put Donald Trump aside, as he is preventing other politicians from taking a strong position on the topic.

A Wall:
People call it, "unethical", but in fact, it is the most ethical thing you can do. Some Mexicans have been waiting for months to come to America, and they are held up at the border for legal migration. While this is happening, illegals are coming in for free, much faster, and with drugs. A wall gives the border security ultimate power to keep out the bad guys and let in the good ones. And once we keep the bad ones out, we will be able to let migrants in much faster.

As far as the costs go, it would cost 10 billion total to make the wall. It is without a doubt, a amazing price to end our drug epidemic. You should note that 10 billion isn't much off our 718 billion military spending.


Please rebuttal to the things I said. I want to know what the other side is thinking.

1) Ineffective
Most border patrol, locals, and experts know of the issues with the walls. They are only useful to move traffic around, not stop anything

There are european countries building border walls to keep migrants out right now, and countries have used them for hundreds of years.

2) Miss apportion of money
Money needed for better tech, more patrol etc are diverted to a financial boondoggle

We can do both, securing the border should be a top priority.

3) Poor optics
Doing this is bad optics for the American people, for people around the world.

Bad optics? Wanting to keep people from coming here illegally isn't bad optics, and besides we should care less about what people think of us and more about our own safety, security and prosperity. I am fine with legal immigration, most people are, I am not OK with millions of people coming here that we haven't first screened and determined if they would be beneficial towards our nation. Immigration should be a give and take relationship
Objectivity
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2/21/2016 5:14:13 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 10:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/20/2016 8:47:19 PM, KingoSchenk wrote:
What is wrong with building a border wall along the Mexican border? Please put Donald Trump aside, as he is preventing other politicians from taking a strong position on the topic.

A Wall:
People call it, "unethical", but in fact, it is the most ethical thing you can do. Some Mexicans have been waiting for months to come to America, and they are held up at the border for legal migration. While this is happening, illegals are coming in for free, much faster, and with drugs. A wall gives the border security ultimate power to keep out the bad guys and let in the good ones. And once we keep the bad ones out, we will be able to let migrants in much faster.

As far as the costs go, it would cost 10 billion total to make the wall. It is without a doubt, a amazing price to end our drug epidemic. You should note that 10 billion isn't much off our 718 billion military spending.


Please rebuttal to the things I said. I want to know what the other side is thinking.

1) Ineffective
Most border patrol, locals, and experts know of the issues with the walls. They are only useful to move traffic around, not stop anything

2) Miss apportion of money
Money needed for better tech, more patrol etc are diverted to a financial boondoggle

3) Poor optics
Doing this is bad optics for the American people, for people around the world.

And we already have a wall in some parts of the border, we would just be finishing it.
Objectivity
Posts: 1,073
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2/21/2016 5:17:32 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 10:41:50 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/20/2016 8:47:19 PM, KingoSchenk wrote:
What is wrong with building a border wall along the Mexican border? Please put Donald Trump aside, as he is preventing other politicians from taking a strong position on the topic.

A Wall:
People call it, "unethical", but in fact, it is the most ethical thing you can do. Some Mexicans have been waiting for months to come to America, and they are held up at the border for legal migration. While this is happening, illegals are coming in for free, much faster, and with drugs. A wall gives the border security ultimate power to keep out the bad guys and let in the good ones. And once we keep the bad ones out, we will be able to let migrants in much faster.

A wall doesnt prevent people from going under the wall via tunnel, around the wall via the sea, over the wall via plane, and it also doesnt stop people who come in on work visas and dont leave after they expire, which is how 40% of illegal immigrants come into the country

And what of the other 60%? Also let's be honest with ourselves for a moment, a bunch of poor migrants aren't going to be able to afford to fly here en masse or evade the coast guard. Some will still get through, but it will stop a lot of them.

As far as the costs go, it would cost 10 billion total to make the wall.

They said the Iraq War would cost about 50 to 60 billion to fight and it turned out to be 1 trillion. Something tells me that people in favor of building the wall are really lowballing the price to trick people into thinking it will be a breeze when it wont

No.. not really. Also comparing a wall to a war is pretty absurd.. a war is perpetual and could go on for years depending on how long it takes for it to end, once a wall is built it is built.

It is without a doubt, a amazing price to end our drug epidemic.

LOL. Okay, THAT is hilarious..... In that its a hilariously stupid thing to believe.


A border wall wont end the drug war because drugs are easier to smuggle into the country than people. In fact a lot of drugs are grown INSIDE the US where a wall on the border cant do jack sh** to keep it out. Youd have to have no idea how the drug war works to believe a border wall would somehow end it.

A lot of them are, but a lot are smuggled in too, and a wall would help stop that. If you just want open borders with no screenings at all just say so, but don't pretend like building a wall is a bad idea just to keep open borders.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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2/21/2016 5:21:01 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/21/2016 5:13:13 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/20/2016 10:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/20/2016 8:47:19 PM, KingoSchenk wrote:
What is wrong with building a border wall along the Mexican border? Please put Donald Trump aside, as he is preventing other politicians from taking a strong position on the topic.

A Wall:
People call it, "unethical", but in fact, it is the most ethical thing you can do. Some Mexicans have been waiting for months to come to America, and they are held up at the border for legal migration. While this is happening, illegals are coming in for free, much faster, and with drugs. A wall gives the border security ultimate power to keep out the bad guys and let in the good ones. And once we keep the bad ones out, we will be able to let migrants in much faster.

As far as the costs go, it would cost 10 billion total to make the wall. It is without a doubt, a amazing price to end our drug epidemic. You should note that 10 billion isn't much off our 718 billion military spending.


Please rebuttal to the things I said. I want to know what the other side is thinking.

1) Ineffective
Most border patrol, locals, and experts know of the issues with the walls. They are only useful to move traffic around, not stop anything

There are european countries building border walls to keep migrants out right now, and countries have used them for hundreds of years.

Are you saying that because some European country is doing it that it is a good idea? Not persuasive. Further, "hundreds of years" yup. And its hundreds of years since, we have better tech than a stupid wall.


2) Miss apportion of money
Money needed for better tech, more patrol etc are diverted to a financial boondoggle

We can do both, securing the border should be a top priority.

Its not that big a deal really, but no we can't "do both" The wall is very expensive and simple economics say that money for the one will take money from the other.


3) Poor optics
Doing this is bad optics for the American people, for people around the world.

Bad optics? Wanting to keep people from coming here illegally isn't bad optics, and besides we should care less about what people think of us and more about our own safety, security and prosperity. I am fine with legal immigration, most people are, I am not OK with millions of people coming here that we haven't first screened and determined if they would be beneficial towards our nation. Immigration should be a give and take relationship

Our image in the world has direct impact on our health as a country. Are you denying this?
Objectivity
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2/21/2016 5:21:30 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 10:41:50 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/20/2016 8:47:19 PM, KingoSchenk wrote:
What is wrong with building a border wall along the Mexican border? Please put Donald Trump aside, as he is preventing other politicians from taking a strong position on the topic.

A Wall:
People call it, "unethical", but in fact, it is the most ethical thing you can do. Some Mexicans have been waiting for months to come to America, and they are held up at the border for legal migration. While this is happening, illegals are coming in for free, much faster, and with drugs. A wall gives the border security ultimate power to keep out the bad guys and let in the good ones. And once we keep the bad ones out, we will be able to let migrants in much faster.

A wall doesnt prevent people from going under the wall via tunnel, around the wall via the sea, over the wall via plane, and it also doesnt stop people who come in on work visas and dont leave after they expire, which is how 40% of illegal immigrants come into the country

Also you can build the wall partially underground to stop tunneling

As far as the costs go, it would cost 10 billion total to make the wall.

They said the Iraq War would cost about 50 to 60 billion to fight and it turned out to be 1 trillion. Something tells me that people in favor of building the wall are really lowballing the price to trick people into thinking it will be a breeze when it wont

It is without a doubt, a amazing price to end our drug epidemic.

LOL. Okay, THAT is hilarious..... In that its a hilariously stupid thing to believe.

A border wall wont end the drug war because drugs are easier to smuggle into the country than people. In fact a lot of drugs are grown INSIDE the US where a wall on the border cant do jack sh** to keep it out. Youd have to have no idea how the drug war works to believe a border wall would somehow end it.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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2/21/2016 5:23:17 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/21/2016 5:14:13 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/20/2016 10:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/20/2016 8:47:19 PM, KingoSchenk wrote:
What is wrong with building a border wall along the Mexican border? Please put Donald Trump aside, as he is preventing other politicians from taking a strong position on the topic.

A Wall:
People call it, "unethical", but in fact, it is the most ethical thing you can do. Some Mexicans have been waiting for months to come to America, and they are held up at the border for legal migration. While this is happening, illegals are coming in for free, much faster, and with drugs. A wall gives the border security ultimate power to keep out the bad guys and let in the good ones. And once we keep the bad ones out, we will be able to let migrants in much faster.

As far as the costs go, it would cost 10 billion total to make the wall. It is without a doubt, a amazing price to end our drug epidemic. You should note that 10 billion isn't much off our 718 billion military spending.


Please rebuttal to the things I said. I want to know what the other side is thinking.

1) Ineffective
Most border patrol, locals, and experts know of the issues with the walls. They are only useful to move traffic around, not stop anything

2) Miss apportion of money
Money needed for better tech, more patrol etc are diverted to a financial boondoggle

3) Poor optics
Doing this is bad optics for the American people, for people around the world.

And we already have a wall in some parts of the border, we would just be finishing it.

Yea, and it has not been very effective. Ask the people and border patrol. They talk about how people get around it with ease. Ladders, under, etc. Not that hard.

As for "build it and forget it" I saw a thing back some time ago, and the cost of maintaining was HIGHER than the cost to maintain the better more effective tech solutions.
Objectivity
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2/21/2016 5:28:14 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/21/2016 5:21:01 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/21/2016 5:13:13 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/20/2016 10:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/20/2016 8:47:19 PM, KingoSchenk wrote:
What is wrong with building a border wall along the Mexican border? Please put Donald Trump aside, as he is preventing other politicians from taking a strong position on the topic.

A Wall:
People call it, "unethical", but in fact, it is the most ethical thing you can do. Some Mexicans have been waiting for months to come to America, and they are held up at the border for legal migration. While this is happening, illegals are coming in for free, much faster, and with drugs. A wall gives the border security ultimate power to keep out the bad guys and let in the good ones. And once we keep the bad ones out, we will be able to let migrants in much faster.

As far as the costs go, it would cost 10 billion total to make the wall. It is without a doubt, a amazing price to end our drug epidemic. You should note that 10 billion isn't much off our 718 billion military spending.


Please rebuttal to the things I said. I want to know what the other side is thinking.

1) Ineffective
Most border patrol, locals, and experts know of the issues with the walls. They are only useful to move traffic around, not stop anything

There are european countries building border walls to keep migrants out right now, and countries have used them for hundreds of years.

Are you saying that because some European country is doing it that it is a good idea? Not persuasive. Further, "hundreds of years" yup. And its hundreds of years since, we have better tech than a stupid wall.

I am saying that there are other countries doing it, its not some whacky idea thats never been done or isn't being done right now. Very few illegal immigrants have the money or resources to fly around a wall, use a boat to evade the coast guard, or buy expensive equipment to tunnel under a wall. Most of these people aren't criminal masterminds, you know.


2) Miss apportion of money
Money needed for better tech, more patrol etc are diverted to a financial boondoggle

We can do both, securing the border should be a top priority.

Its not that big a deal really, but no we can't "do both" The wall is very expensive and simple economics say that money for the one will take money from the other.

It ought to be a big deal, and the wall is less expensive than the welfare we pay millions of illegal immigrants or the wages they depress, and please don't come back at me with some crackpot study showing how they help the economy. Also the wall wouldn't take money from the DHS, it would be a separate expense.


3) Poor optics
Doing this is bad optics for the American people, for people around the world.

Bad optics? Wanting to keep people from coming here illegally isn't bad optics, and besides we should care less about what people think of us and more about our own safety, security and prosperity. I am fine with legal immigration, most people are, I am not OK with millions of people coming here that we haven't first screened and determined if they would be beneficial towards our nation. Immigration should be a give and take relationship

Our image in the world has direct impact on our health as a country. Are you denying this?

It does but that doesn't mean we should let our image in the world deter us from any domestic policy whatsoever, especially if it has popular support. The "world" doesn't get a vote in our domestic policies, what you are suggesting is the most atrocious usurpation of power from the people I've heard of in recent history, and that's coming from an anti populist. Also securing our borders shouldn't hurt our image anyways.
TBR
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2/21/2016 5:38:15 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/21/2016 5:28:14 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/21/2016 5:21:01 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/21/2016 5:13:13 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/20/2016 10:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/20/2016 8:47:19 PM, KingoSchenk wrote:
What is wrong with building a border wall along the Mexican border? Please put Donald Trump aside, as he is preventing other politicians from taking a strong position on the topic.

A Wall:
People call it, "unethical", but in fact, it is the most ethical thing you can do. Some Mexicans have been waiting for months to come to America, and they are held up at the border for legal migration. While this is happening, illegals are coming in for free, much faster, and with drugs. A wall gives the border security ultimate power to keep out the bad guys and let in the good ones. And once we keep the bad ones out, we will be able to let migrants in much faster.

As far as the costs go, it would cost 10 billion total to make the wall. It is without a doubt, a amazing price to end our drug epidemic. You should note that 10 billion isn't much off our 718 billion military spending.


Please rebuttal to the things I said. I want to know what the other side is thinking.

1) Ineffective
Most border patrol, locals, and experts know of the issues with the walls. They are only useful to move traffic around, not stop anything

There are european countries building border walls to keep migrants out right now, and countries have used them for hundreds of years.

Are you saying that because some European country is doing it that it is a good idea? Not persuasive. Further, "hundreds of years" yup. And its hundreds of years since, we have better tech than a stupid wall.

I am saying that there are other countries doing it, its not some whacky idea thats never been done or isn't being done right now. Very few illegal immigrants have the money or resources to fly around a wall, use a boat to evade the coast guard, or buy expensive equipment to tunnel under a wall. Most of these people aren't criminal masterminds, you know.

1) Walls, as you have said, have been built since man stacked rocks. So what?
2) The criminal masterminds are the people we really want to stop.
3) When you make it MORE expensive to do, the people who come will stay longer. This is a known effect.



2) Miss apportion of money
Money needed for better tech, more patrol etc are diverted to a financial boondoggle

We can do both, securing the border should be a top priority.

Its not that big a deal really, but no we can't "do both" The wall is very expensive and simple economics say that money for the one will take money from the other.

It ought to be a big deal, and the wall is less expensive than the welfare we pay millions of illegal immigrants or the wages they depress, and please don't come back at me with some crackpot study showing how they help the economy. Also the wall wouldn't take money from the DHS, it would be a separate expense.

1) Building the wall would not eliminate the costs we have now
2) Illegal immigrants do not get welfare
3) The budget for the wall would take from the budget for the better technical solutions available.



3) Poor optics
Doing this is bad optics for the American people, for people around the world.

Bad optics? Wanting to keep people from coming here illegally isn't bad optics, and besides we should care less about what people think of us and more about our own safety, security and prosperity. I am fine with legal immigration, most people are, I am not OK with millions of people coming here that we haven't first screened and determined if they would be beneficial towards our nation. Immigration should be a give and take relationship

Our image in the world has direct impact on our health as a country. Are you denying this?

It does but that doesn't mean we should let our image in the world deter us from any domestic policy whatsoever, especially if it has popular support. The "world" doesn't get a vote in our domestic policies, what you are suggesting is the most atrocious usurpation of power from the people I've heard of in recent history, and that's coming from an anti populist. Also securing our borders shouldn't hurt our image anyways.

No. Not at all. We are not allowing anyone to determine our policy, we are cognitive of the effect though. A slim majority want a wall. Its like 51/40 or something.
Objectivity
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2/21/2016 5:38:36 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/21/2016 5:23:17 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/21/2016 5:14:13 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/20/2016 10:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/20/2016 8:47:19 PM, KingoSchenk wrote:
What is wrong with building a border wall along the Mexican border? Please put Donald Trump aside, as he is preventing other politicians from taking a strong position on the topic.

A Wall:
People call it, "unethical", but in fact, it is the most ethical thing you can do. Some Mexicans have been waiting for months to come to America, and they are held up at the border for legal migration. While this is happening, illegals are coming in for free, much faster, and with drugs. A wall gives the border security ultimate power to keep out the bad guys and let in the good ones. And once we keep the bad ones out, we will be able to let migrants in much faster.

As far as the costs go, it would cost 10 billion total to make the wall. It is without a doubt, a amazing price to end our drug epidemic. You should note that 10 billion isn't much off our 718 billion military spending.


Please rebuttal to the things I said. I want to know what the other side is thinking.

1) Ineffective
Most border patrol, locals, and experts know of the issues with the walls. They are only useful to move traffic around, not stop anything

2) Miss apportion of money
Money needed for better tech, more patrol etc are diverted to a financial boondoggle

3) Poor optics
Doing this is bad optics for the American people, for people around the world.

And we already have a wall in some parts of the border, we would just be finishing it.

Yea, and it has not been very effective. Ask the people and border patrol. They talk about how people get around it with ease. Ladders, under, etc. Not that hard.

Yea, you can get around an unfinished wall pretty easily.. I wonder why that is. Also I have talked to border patrol that say it would help, or that it would at least be more effective than what we have now (i.e nothing in some areas). Sure you could theoretically use a ladder to scale over the wall, but in practice due to a number of factors that I couldn't tell you off the top of my head since I'm not a security expert, the Mexico-United States Barrier has significantly reduced illegal crossings.

As for "build it and forget it" I saw a thing back some time ago, and the cost of maintaining was HIGHER than the cost to maintain the better more effective tech solutions.

Idk what these solutions are but my question, and yours too should be why they haven't been implemented yet. I am not big on conspiracy theories but I believe both parties have a vested interest in keeping an open border
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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2/21/2016 5:41:18 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/21/2016 5:17:32 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/20/2016 10:41:50 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/20/2016 8:47:19 PM, KingoSchenk wrote:
What is wrong with building a border wall along the Mexican border? Please put Donald Trump aside, as he is preventing other politicians from taking a strong position on the topic.

A Wall:
People call it, "unethical", but in fact, it is the most ethical thing you can do. Some Mexicans have been waiting for months to come to America, and they are held up at the border for legal migration. While this is happening, illegals are coming in for free, much faster, and with drugs. A wall gives the border security ultimate power to keep out the bad guys and let in the good ones. And once we keep the bad ones out, we will be able to let migrants in much faster.

A wall doesnt prevent people from going under the wall via tunnel, around the wall via the sea, over the wall via plane, and it also doesnt stop people who come in on work visas and dont leave after they expire, which is how 40% of illegal immigrants come into the country

And what of the other 60%?

The 40% number was referring to just those who come in work visas and stay when their visas expire. A chunk of that remaining 60% goes to plane, boat, tunnel, etc.

As far as the costs go, it would cost 10 billion total to make the wall.

They said the Iraq War would cost about 50 to 60 billion to fight and it turned out to be 1 trillion. Something tells me that people in favor of building the wall are really lowballing the price to trick people into thinking it will be a breeze when it wont

No.. not really.

If the American people got a dollar every time the government said something would be cheaper than it turned out to be, we would be able to pay for all the crap that turned out to be far more expensive than predicted....

Also comparing a wall to a war is pretty absurd.. a war is perpetual and could go on for years depending on how long it takes for it to end, once a wall is built it is built.

You still have to maintain the wall and man it. The general point was that the price tag likely wont be $10 billion flat like the GOP would like people to believe.

A border wall wont end the drug war because drugs are easier to smuggle into the country than people. In fact a lot of drugs are grown INSIDE the US where a wall on the border cant do jack sh** to keep it out. Youd have to have no idea how the drug war works to believe a border wall would somehow end it.

A lot of them are, but a lot are smuggled in too, and a wall would help stop that.

It would only help lessen it, and by how much no one knows.

If you just want open borders with no screenings at all just say so, but don't pretend like building a wall is a bad idea just to keep open borders.

Personally Im fine with a wall as long as the GOP comes up for a means to actually pay for it, whether it be conceding to a tax hike or a reduction in military spending which costs WAY more than a wall would. Im only here to shoot holes in Schenks logic for why it is needed
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TBR
Posts: 9,991
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2/21/2016 5:44:27 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/21/2016 5:38:36 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/21/2016 5:23:17 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/21/2016 5:14:13 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/20/2016 10:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/20/2016 8:47:19 PM, KingoSchenk wrote:
What is wrong with building a border wall along the Mexican border? Please put Donald Trump aside, as he is preventing other politicians from taking a strong position on the topic.

A Wall:
People call it, "unethical", but in fact, it is the most ethical thing you can do. Some Mexicans have been waiting for months to come to America, and they are held up at the border for legal migration. While this is happening, illegals are coming in for free, much faster, and with drugs. A wall gives the border security ultimate power to keep out the bad guys and let in the good ones. And once we keep the bad ones out, we will be able to let migrants in much faster.

As far as the costs go, it would cost 10 billion total to make the wall. It is without a doubt, a amazing price to end our drug epidemic. You should note that 10 billion isn't much off our 718 billion military spending.


Please rebuttal to the things I said. I want to know what the other side is thinking.

1) Ineffective
Most border patrol, locals, and experts know of the issues with the walls. They are only useful to move traffic around, not stop anything

2) Miss apportion of money
Money needed for better tech, more patrol etc are diverted to a financial boondoggle

3) Poor optics
Doing this is bad optics for the American people, for people around the world.

And we already have a wall in some parts of the border, we would just be finishing it.

Yea, and it has not been very effective. Ask the people and border patrol. They talk about how people get around it with ease. Ladders, under, etc. Not that hard.

Yea, you can get around an unfinished wall pretty easily.. I wonder why that is. Also I have talked to border patrol that say it would help, or that it would at least be more effective than what we have now (i.e nothing in some areas). Sure you could theoretically use a ladder to scale over the wall, but in practice due to a number of factors that I couldn't tell you off the top of my head since I'm not a security expert, the Mexico-United States Barrier has significantly reduced illegal crossings.

They are not walking AROUND the fence in many areas, they are destroying, going over, under etc. Its just not a very effective thing.

All I have read from experts and border control people is that it helps to move traffic. That is fine, but thinking "completing it" would stop any issue is just a joke.

http://cdn.theatlantic.com...


As for "build it and forget it" I saw a thing back some time ago, and the cost of maintaining was HIGHER than the cost to maintain the better more effective tech solutions.

Idk what these solutions are but my question, and yours too should be why they haven't been implemented yet. I am not big on conspiracy theories but I believe both parties have a vested interest in keeping an open border

We are trying. They need money that republicans hate to spend, even on the boarder. You seem to want them to have LESS for what has been effective.

Still not addressing the fact that the wall is not a build it and forget it sort of thing. We are talking about a nightmare of maintenance.
Objectivity
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2/21/2016 5:46:09 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/21/2016 5:38:15 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/21/2016 5:28:14 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/21/2016 5:21:01 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/21/2016 5:13:13 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/20/2016 10:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/20/2016 8:47:19 PM, KingoSchenk wrote:
What is wrong with building a border wall along the Mexican border? Please put Donald Trump aside, as he is preventing other politicians from taking a strong position on the topic.

A Wall:
People call it, "unethical", but in fact, it is the most ethical thing you can do. Some Mexicans have been waiting for months to come to America, and they are held up at the border for legal migration. While this is happening, illegals are coming in for free, much faster, and with drugs. A wall gives the border security ultimate power to keep out the bad guys and let in the good ones. And once we keep the bad ones out, we will be able to let migrants in much faster.

As far as the costs go, it would cost 10 billion total to make the wall. It is without a doubt, a amazing price to end our drug epidemic. You should note that 10 billion isn't much off our 718 billion military spending.


Please rebuttal to the things I said. I want to know what the other side is thinking.

1) Ineffective
Most border patrol, locals, and experts know of the issues with the walls. They are only useful to move traffic around, not stop anything

There are european countries building border walls to keep migrants out right now, and countries have used them for hundreds of years.

Are you saying that because some European country is doing it that it is a good idea? Not persuasive. Further, "hundreds of years" yup. And its hundreds of years since, we have better tech than a stupid wall.

I am saying that there are other countries doing it, its not some whacky idea thats never been done or isn't being done right now. Very few illegal immigrants have the money or resources to fly around a wall, use a boat to evade the coast guard, or buy expensive equipment to tunnel under a wall. Most of these people aren't criminal masterminds, you know.

1) Walls, as you have said, have been built since man stacked rocks. So what?
2) The criminal masterminds are the people we really want to stop.
3) When you make it MORE expensive to do, the people who come will stay longer. This is a known effect.

1) Yea, I was proving that it isn't some whacky idea like some would say it is

2) No, imo we should try to stop as much illegal immigration as possible, we can't stop it all but the more difficult we make it, the less that will come. We shouldn't just have open borders. I am against deportation in the majority of instances but we can't just let these people keep coming unchecked.

3) What? How do you figure? Also when you make it more expensive, less will come too.



2) Miss apportion of money
Money needed for better tech, more patrol etc are diverted to a financial boondoggle

We can do both, securing the border should be a top priority.

Its not that big a deal really, but no we can't "do both" The wall is very expensive and simple economics say that money for the one will take money from the other.

It ought to be a big deal, and the wall is less expensive than the welfare we pay millions of illegal immigrants or the wages they depress, and please don't come back at me with some crackpot study showing how they help the economy. Also the wall wouldn't take money from the DHS, it would be a separate expense.

1) Building the wall would not eliminate the costs we have now
2) Illegal immigrants do not get welfare
3) The budget for the wall would take from the budget for the better technical solutions available.

1) It would in part

2) Not in the status quo, but most people support amnesty (even republicans) so once they become legal they will receive it, and lets be honest, most know they will eventually be granted legal status. If we are going to have a policy of amnesty we need to at least try to stop them from coming in the first place or we should just have open borders

3) Once again, where are these better technical solutions? And if they haven't been implemented yet why?





3) Poor optics
Doing this is bad optics for the American people, for people around the world.

Bad optics? Wanting to keep people from coming here illegally isn't bad optics, and besides we should care less about what people think of us and more about our own safety, security and prosperity. I am fine with legal immigration, most people are, I am not OK with millions of people coming here that we haven't first screened and determined if they would be beneficial towards our nation. Immigration should be a give and take relationship

Our image in the world has direct impact on our health as a country. Are you denying this?

It does but that doesn't mean we should let our image in the world deter us from any domestic policy whatsoever, especially if it has popular support. The "world" doesn't get a vote in our domestic policies, what you are suggesting is the most atrocious usurpation of power from the people I've heard of in recent history, and that's coming from an anti populist. Also securing our borders shouldn't hurt our image anyways.

No. Not at all. We are not allowing anyone to determine our policy, we are cognitive of the effect though. A slim majority want a wall. Its like 51/40 or something.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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2/21/2016 5:48:39 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/21/2016 5:41:18 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/21/2016 5:17:32 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/20/2016 10:41:50 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/20/2016 8:47:19 PM, KingoSchenk wrote:
What is wrong with building a border wall along the Mexican border? Please put Donald Trump aside, as he is preventing other politicians from taking a strong position on the topic.

A Wall:
People call it, "unethical", but in fact, it is the most ethical thing you can do. Some Mexicans have been waiting for months to come to America, and they are held up at the border for legal migration. While this is happening, illegals are coming in for free, much faster, and with drugs. A wall gives the border security ultimate power to keep out the bad guys and let in the good ones. And once we keep the bad ones out, we will be able to let migrants in much faster.

A wall doesnt prevent people from going under the wall via tunnel, around the wall via the sea, over the wall via plane, and it also doesnt stop people who come in on work visas and dont leave after they expire, which is how 40% of illegal immigrants come into the country

And what of the other 60%?

The 40% number was referring to just those who come in work visas and stay when their visas expire. A chunk of that remaining 60% goes to plane, boat, tunnel, etc.

As far as the costs go, it would cost 10 billion total to make the wall.

They said the Iraq War would cost about 50 to 60 billion to fight and it turned out to be 1 trillion. Something tells me that people in favor of building the wall are really lowballing the price to trick people into thinking it will be a breeze when it wont

No.. not really.

If the American people got a dollar every time the government said something would be cheaper than it turned out to be, we would be able to pay for all the crap that turned out to be far more expensive than predicted....

Also comparing a wall to a war is pretty absurd.. a war is perpetual and could go on for years depending on how long it takes for it to end, once a wall is built it is built.

You still have to maintain the wall and man it. The general point was that the price tag likely wont be $10 billion flat like the GOP would like people to believe.

A border wall wont end the drug war because drugs are easier to smuggle into the country than people. In fact a lot of drugs are grown INSIDE the US where a wall on the border cant do jack sh** to keep it out. Youd have to have no idea how the drug war works to believe a border wall would somehow end it.

A lot of them are, but a lot are smuggled in too, and a wall would help stop that.

It would only help lessen it, and by how much no one knows.

If you just want open borders with no screenings at all just say so, but don't pretend like building a wall is a bad idea just to keep open borders.

Personally Im fine with a wall as long as the GOP comes up for a means to actually pay for it, whether it be conceding to a tax hike or a reduction in military spending which costs WAY more than a wall would. Im only here to shoot holes in Schenks logic for why it is needed

To me it seems to fit with the republican mindset so well. Put a wall in front of a republican.

"Rats, a damn wall. Well, guess I will just go back to my village and watch my kid die"
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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2/21/2016 5:56:13 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/21/2016 5:46:09 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/21/2016 5:38:15 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/21/2016 5:28:14 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/21/2016 5:21:01 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/21/2016 5:13:13 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 2/20/2016 10:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
At 2/20/2016 8:47:19 PM, KingoSchenk wrote:
What is wrong with building a border wall along the Mexican border? Please put Donald Trump aside, as he is preventing other politicians from taking a strong position on the topic.

A Wall:
People call it, "unethical", but in fact, it is the most ethical thing you can do. Some Mexicans have been waiting for months to come to America, and they are held up at the border for legal migration. While this is happening, illegals are coming in for free, much faster, and with drugs. A wall gives the border security ultimate power to keep out the bad guys and let in the good ones. And once we keep the bad ones out, we will be able to let migrants in much faster.

As far as the costs go, it would cost 10 billion total to make the wall. It is without a doubt, a amazing price to end our drug epidemic. You should note that 10 billion isn't much off our 718 billion military spending.


Please rebuttal to the things I said. I want to know what the other side is thinking.

1) Ineffective
Most border patrol, locals, and experts know of the issues with the walls. They are only useful to move traffic around, not stop anything

There are european countries building border walls to keep migrants out right now, and countries have used them for hundreds of years.

Are you saying that because some European country is doing it that it is a good idea? Not persuasive. Further, "hundreds of years" yup. And its hundreds of years since, we have better tech than a stupid wall.

I am saying that there are other countries doing it, its not some whacky idea thats never been done or isn't being done right now. Very few illegal immigrants have the money or resources to fly around a wall, use a boat to evade the coast guard, or buy expensive equipment to tunnel under a wall. Most of these people aren't criminal masterminds, you know.

1) Walls, as you have said, have been built since man stacked rocks. So what?
2) The criminal masterminds are the people we really want to stop.
3) When you make it MORE expensive to do, the people who come will stay longer. This is a known effect.

1) Yea, I was proving that it isn't some whacky idea like some would say it is
Fine


2) No, imo we should try to stop as much illegal immigration as possible, we can't stop it all but the more difficult we make it, the less that will come. We shouldn't just have open borders. I am against deportation in the majority of instances but we can't just let these people keep coming unchecked.
We are just talking about what is effective. The wall is not as effective as anyone wants to believe.


3) What? How do you figure? Also when you make it more expensive, less will come too.
Look. People WANT to come. Now, if they come and go with greater ease, it costs them LESS to do so. If they have to pay MORE or it is more difficult, they will come and NOT go back. This has been true, and shown.




2) Miss apportion of money
Money needed for better tech, more patrol etc are diverted to a financial boondoggle

We can do both, securing the border should be a top priority.

Its not that big a deal really, but no we can't "do both" The wall is very expensive and simple economics say that money for the one will take money from the other.

It ought to be a big deal, and the wall is less expensive than the welfare we pay millions of illegal immigrants or the wages they depress, and please don't come back at me with some crackpot study showing how they help the economy. Also the wall wouldn't take money from the DHS, it would be a separate expense.

1) Building the wall would not eliminate the costs we have now
2) Illegal immigrants do not get welfare
3) The budget for the wall would take from the budget for the better technical solutions available.

1) It would in part
Keep dreaming

2) Not in the status quo, but most people support amnesty (even republicans) so once they become legal they will receive it, and lets be honest, most know they will eventually be granted legal status. If we are going to have a policy of amnesty we need to at least try to stop them from coming in the first place or we should just have open borders
How many do you think will get amnesty? How much do you think it will cost in "welfare"?


3) Once again, where are these better technical solutions? And if they haven't been implemented yet why?
Well, they ARE being implemented. Just like a wall, it does not happen over night. You could argue that much time, money and effort has been wasted on a boondoggle of fencing.






3) Poor optics
Doing this is bad optics for the American people, for people around the world.

Bad optics? Wanting to keep people from coming here illegally isn't bad optics, and besides we should care less about what people think of us and more about our own safety, security and prosperity. I am fine with legal immigration, most people are, I am not OK with millions of people coming here that we haven't first screened and determined if they would be beneficial towards our nation. Immigration should be a give and take relationship

Our image in the world has direct impact on our health as a country. Are you denying this?

It does but that doesn't mean we should let our image in the world deter us from any domestic policy whatsoever, especially if it has popular support. The "world" doesn't get a vote in our domestic policies, what you are suggesting is the most atrocious usurpation of power from the people I've heard of in recent history, and that's coming from an anti populist. Also securing our borders shouldn't hurt our image anyways.

No. Not at all. We are not allowing anyone to determine our policy, we are cognitive of the effect though. A slim majority want a wall. Its like 51/40 or something.