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Change ideology???

comoncents
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11/5/2010 7:38:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
How much would it cost to make you switch your ideology to the diametrically opposed side?

I mean, really change it.

libertarians=liberal
conservative=liberal
liberal=conservative

How much?
1 million, 2 million, 20 million, 20 billion???

Would you ever change?
LaissezFaire
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11/5/2010 7:44:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I don't think you can change who you are, or what you truly believe is right or wrong. It would be like paying an atheist to believe in God. You might get them to say that they do, but you can't just decide to actually believe in God; if it isn't honest belief then it isn't really belief. Do you mean how much would someone have to pay me to pretend to switch my ideology?
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: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Kleptin
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11/5/2010 7:54:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'd switch it for however much you're willing to pay me.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
comoncents
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11/5/2010 8:01:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/5/2010 7:50:16 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Pay me with a convincing argument.

Ohhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

Kinda awesome if you ask me.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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11/5/2010 8:05:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
OP needs to specify. Change what you believe or what you present to the world. I'd probably change what I present to the world for $200,000, because I can do more libertarian good by donating that to the liberty movement than I can by arguing with people.
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GeoLaureate8
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11/5/2010 8:22:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/5/2010 7:50:16 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Pay me with a convincing argument.

The only possible answer.
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InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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11/5/2010 10:02:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/5/2010 7:44:44 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
I don't think you can change who you are, or what you truly believe is right or wrong. It would be like paying an atheist to believe in God. You might get them to say that they do, but you can't just decide to actually believe in God; if it isn't honest belief then it isn't really belief. Do you mean how much would someone have to pay me to pretend to switch my ideology?

This.

You can't pay somebody to change their core beliefs. They could, however, pretend to change.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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11/7/2010 9:09:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/5/2010 10:02:23 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 11/5/2010 7:44:44 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
I don't think you can change who you are, or what you truly believe is right or wrong. It would be like paying an atheist to believe in God. You might get them to say that they do, but you can't just decide to actually believe in God; if it isn't honest belief then it isn't really belief. Do you mean how much would someone have to pay me to pretend to switch my ideology?

This.

You can't pay somebody to change their core beliefs. They could, however, pretend to change.

Lol - are you kidding me? People change their "core" beliefs all the time. That's why the joke is that only the poor and college kids are liberal -- The poor because they benefit from government programs and high tax rates for the wealthy, and college kids because they don't have real jobs so they have time to be concerned with issues (and that's why they're known to rally, protest and shiz at a far higher rate than older middle aged working people). The point is, everyone knows that people become more Republican and conservative as they get older, because once they make an actual living (earn decent money) they don't want to part with it due to all of our expenses. So, if I were given 10 million dollars or whatever, then of course I'd want to vote Republican -- because they'd take less of the money! However being a fairly educated individual I know the Republican party's being the low spending party is actually a myth so I don't know if I could vote Repub even then :p I'd easily vote Libertarian in that case though.
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LaissezFaire
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11/7/2010 9:20:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/7/2010 9:09:44 AM, theLwerd wrote:
At 11/5/2010 10:02:23 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 11/5/2010 7:44:44 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
I don't think you can change who you are, or what you truly believe is right or wrong. It would be like paying an atheist to believe in God. You might get them to say that they do, but you can't just decide to actually believe in God; if it isn't honest belief then it isn't really belief. Do you mean how much would someone have to pay me to pretend to switch my ideology?

This.

You can't pay somebody to change their core beliefs. They could, however, pretend to change.

Lol - are you kidding me? People change their "core" beliefs all the time. That's why the joke is that only the poor and college kids are liberal -- The poor because they benefit from government programs and high tax rates for the wealthy, and college kids because they don't have real jobs so they have time to be concerned with issues (and that's why they're known to rally, protest and shiz at a far higher rate than older middle aged working people). The point is, everyone knows that people become more Republican and conservative as they get older, because once they make an actual living (earn decent money) they don't want to part with it due to all of our expenses. So, if I were given 10 million dollars or whatever, then of course I'd want to vote Republican -- because they'd take less of the money! However being a fairly educated individual I know the Republican party's being the low spending party is actually a myth so I don't know if I could vote Repub even then :p I'd easily vote Libertarian in that case though.

I meant you can't really consciously choose to change your core beliefs. No one wakes up one day and says, "I've decided be a neo-con from now on. I no longer have a problem with war and murder." People change what they truly believe, but they don't do so in the way the OP suggests--by someone paying them to. You might be convinced to vote Republican if someone gave you $10 million, but I doubt you'd actually become a conservative.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
InsertNameHere
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11/7/2010 10:54:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/7/2010 9:20:03 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:

I meant you can't really consciously choose to change your core beliefs. No one wakes up one day and says, "I've decided be a neo-con from now on. I no longer have a problem with war and murder." People change what they truly believe, but they don't do so in the way the OP suggests--by someone paying them to. You might be convinced to vote Republican if someone gave you $10 million, but I doubt you'd actually become a conservative.

Yea, that's kinda what I was thinking of. Then again, some people could argue that I don't really have core beliefs since I tend to shift so much.
RoyLatham
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11/7/2010 11:08:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
"Rich people become conservative" confuses cause and effect, they became rich because they were conservative -- they took risks and earned it.

Liberalism is the province of people who think that money is very easy to get, so that the problem is not making it, but rather distributing it. Limousine liberals (movie actors, lawyers, professors. Wall Street big shots who trade rather than invest) get large amounts of money for what is for them is easy work. College students get free money from their parents. The poor-on-welfare get free money. By contrast, the lower and middle classes that work for a living are conservative.

Keep in mind that 40% of the population is self-described conservative and only 20% liberal, and the liberals are as a whole richer. Any theory that purports to explain why people have certain ideologies has to conform to the numbers. 40% of the population is not rich.

Of course, it is nonsense to suppose that people could choose to change beliefs based upon promises of a bribe. They might come to rationalize it, but they couldn't plan it.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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11/7/2010 11:23:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Seriously, its not like my ideology is worth that much anyhow in the real world. It's very likely my opinion will change the opinion of others and my vote is worth very little.
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JimProfit
Posts: 63
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11/8/2010 9:08:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
As said, I don't think you could really change someone's mind, but I'd VOTE the way you wanted me too for twenty million dollars. To be fair, with twenty million I could probably get people to change things rightback to the way I wanted anyway...

I've thought about offering my vote on craiglist. Mom says it's illegal, but that bitch thinks everything's illegal... it's called lobbying.
Kleptin
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11/8/2010 9:17:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/7/2010 9:09:44 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Lol - are you kidding me? People change their "core" beliefs all the time. That's why the joke is that only the poor and college kids are liberal -- The poor because they benefit from government programs and high tax rates for the wealthy, and college kids because they don't have real jobs so they have time to be concerned with issues (and that's why they're known to rally, protest and shiz at a far higher rate than older middle aged working people). The point is, everyone knows that people become more Republican and conservative as they get older, because once they make an actual living (earn decent money) they don't want to part with it due to all of our expenses. So, if I were given 10 million dollars or whatever, then of course I'd want to vote Republican -- because they'd take less of the money! However being a fairly educated individual I know the Republican party's being the low spending party is actually a myth so I don't know if I could vote Repub even then :p I'd easily vote Libertarian in that case though.

This is too long for me to sig. Damnit.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
J.Kenyon
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11/8/2010 9:28:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Freeman's brought this up before -- you can't choose what you believe. Imagine that you're in a hot tub surrounded by hot, bikini clad, sandwich-making Swedish models who love guys who know how to discuss random, pointless philosophical topics. Now try to make yourself believe that really are in the hot tub and not sitting in front of your computer screen procrastinating to avoid reading Kierkegaard.

I'll pretend to be a communist/fascist for a few thousand bucks, but you can only really change my mind by presenting good evidence and logical arguments.
Danielle
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11/8/2010 9:38:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/7/2010 11:08:41 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
"Rich people become conservative" confuses cause and effect, they became rich because they were conservative -- they took risks and earned it.

This is a complete generalization. The top 1% of America owns 70% of America's wealth. You think that top 1% earned that money by being conservative? Hardly. People are usually born into money; it's perpetuated with each generation. They're born into status, born into positions where they automatically have a head start (family alumni helping them get into prestigious colleges, family owned businesses, other connections and networking opportunities, etc.). Even in cases of self-made millionaires and billionaires, their success probably has nothing to do with a conservative ideology.

Liberalism is the province of people who think that money is very easy to get, so that the problem is not making it, but rather distributing it.

Another massive and unwarranted generalization. Liberals acknowledge a class war between the working class and elite business class. For instance CEOs now earn on average $500 to $1 of a laborer from their company (compared to $25 to $1 which was the rate in the 1970s). This is entirely unnecessary when people at the bottom are doing all the actual labor to perpetuate the business and are expected to allot so much of their pay to things like health care, insurance, food, shelter, etc. So many of these "basic" needs cannot be met for those at the bottom despite the ridiculous disparity in wealth. It's unnecessary. Talk of taxes, government intervention, etc. are just distractions from this basic fact.

Keep in mind that 40% of the population is self-described conservative and only 20% liberal, and the liberals are as a whole richer. Any theory that purports to explain why people have certain ideologies has to conform to the numbers. 40% of the population is not rich.

Uh, that's because a lot of people in this country are Christian, and/or country bumpkins with old-school conservative values. Isn't that obvious? See: What's the Matter with Kansas.

Of course, it is nonsense to suppose that people could choose to change beliefs based upon promises of a bribe. They might come to rationalize it, but they couldn't plan it.

Well, as I was saying, if they're of a different econonomic class than their opinions might change. I doubt the wealthy are happy with Obama, for instance, who raised taxes for them while cutting taxes for the lower class.
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Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/9/2010 2:16:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/5/2010 7:38:58 PM, comoncents wrote:
How much would it cost to make you switch your ideology to the diametrically opposed side?

I mean, really change it.

libertarians=liberal

Shouldn't the opposite of libertarian be statist?

conservative=liberal
liberal=conservative


How much?
1 million, 2 million, 20 million, 20 billion???

Would you ever change?

How does cash change your opinion?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
comoncents
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11/9/2010 4:41:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 2:16:37 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/5/2010 7:38:58 PM, comoncents wrote:
How much would it cost to make you switch your ideology to the diametrically opposed side?

I mean, really change it.

libertarians=liberal

Shouldn't the opposite of libertarian be statist?

conservative=liberal
liberal=conservative


How much?
1 million, 2 million, 20 million, 20 billion???

Would you ever change?

How does cash change your opinion?

I am just wondering how set on principle are people. Would someone change their views for money. (Almost as if they were in congress and a lobbyist was offering them money to change a vote that is against your principle... Would you)

How susceptible are you to corruption?
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/9/2010 5:04:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 4:41:22 AM, comoncents wrote:

I am just wondering how set on principle are people. Would someone change their views for money. (Almost as if they were in congress and a lobbyist was offering them money to change a vote that is against your principle... Would you)


How susceptible are you to corruption?

Oh I see, well I am fairly moderate but fairly principled. So I would be more likely to compromise my views due to consensus and compromise, rather unlikely to do it for money.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
brian_eggleston
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11/9/2010 6:07:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
You can't change your political ideology without changing your personality.

For example: Republicans, Libertarians, Conservatives (UK) and other right-wing parties believe in lower taxes and less government spending on social welfare programmes.

I see this as self-enrichment at the expense of people less fortunate than myself: in other words it's immoral; it's like a man on a sinking ship pushing women, children and old folk out of his way so that he can be first aboard the lifeboat – in my opinion it's just plain wrong.

We prosper most as humans when we live in a cohesive society where the disadvantaged are given a helping hand by those fortunate enough to be in a position to do so - I'm never going to accept that because we live in a dog-eat-dog world greed should be seen as good and the devil should be allowed to take the hindmost.
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mattrodstrom
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11/9/2010 7:26:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 6:07:29 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
You can't change your political ideology without changing your personality.

For example: Republicans, Libertarians, Conservatives (UK) and other right-wing parties believe in lower taxes and less government spending on social welfare programmes.

I see this as self-enrichment at the expense of people less fortunate than myself: in other words it's immoral; it's like a man on a sinking ship pushing women, children and old folk out of his way so that he can be first aboard the lifeboat – in my opinion it's just plain wrong.

We prosper most as humans when we live in a cohesive society where the disadvantaged are given a helping hand by those fortunate enough to be in a position to do so - I'm never going to accept that because we live in a dog-eat-dog world greed should be seen as good and the devil should be allowed to take the hindmost.

Brian + seriousness ...

STILL = Ridiculousness.
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RoyLatham
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11/9/2010 4:45:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 6:07:29 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:

I see this as self-enrichment at the expense of people less fortunate than myself: in other words it's immoral; it's like a man on a sinking ship pushing women, children and old folk out of his way so that he can be first aboard the lifeboat – in my opinion it's just plain wrong.

No one argues with your right to give money to anyone. That's entirely up to you. The problem comes when you want to give them my money. I want to choose for myself who I think is deserving.
Atheism
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11/9/2010 6:40:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The top 1% in America pay 38% of our entire income tax.
Why does America think it is right to penalize prosperity?
I miss the old members.
Kleptin
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11/9/2010 7:42:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 6:40:19 PM, Atheism wrote:
The top 1% in America pay 38% of our entire income tax.
Why does America think it is right to penalize prosperity?

Not penalize. Rich people wouldn't be rich without benefiting from taxes collected from the generation above them. They're just paying their dues so that the next generation has enough resources to expand even more.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
belle
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11/9/2010 7:44:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/9/2010 4:41:22 AM, comoncents wrote:
At 11/9/2010 2:16:37 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/5/2010 7:38:58 PM, comoncents wrote:
How much would it cost to make you switch your ideology to the diametrically opposed side?

I mean, really change it.

libertarians=liberal

Shouldn't the opposite of libertarian be statist?

conservative=liberal
liberal=conservative


How much?
1 million, 2 million, 20 million, 20 billion???

Would you ever change?

How does cash change your opinion?

I am just wondering how set on principle are people. Would someone change their views for money. (Almost as if they were in congress and a lobbyist was offering them money to change a vote that is against your principle... Would you)


How susceptible are you to corruption?

heres the thing though- you might change your behavior for money, but thats not really gonna change your opinion drastically. at most you will revise your opinion to make what you did, if not good, then at least somehow acceptable. so to change someone into their diametric opposite, you'd have to get them to do lots of little things that contradict whatever beliefs you are trying to change so as to gradually erode those beliefs through cognitive dissonance. given the sheer number of incidents this would require, i imagine it would quickly become extremely costly...
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...