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CNN, Trump and David Duke

YYW
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3/1/2016 4:04:57 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
I've seen the interview with Jake Tapper like dozens of times. Trump didn't answer the question Tapper asked; Trump was talking about "groups of white supremacists" and Tapper was just asking about the KKK. Trump did say "David Duke" twice, and that Trump didn't know who Duke was though... which got me thinking...

What is really going on here?

The idea that Trump would openly fail to disavow a noteworthy white supremacist who once ran for the office of the Governor of Louisiana is fairly inane, mainly, because (1) Trump literally did say that he did at a press conference last Friday; and (2) Trump is not so stupid as to support white supremacy. It just doesn't make sense.

It's reasonably idiotic to conclude that Trump fully understood what Tapper was asking, and the bad mic is plausible, given that technology can fail at the most critical times. But I'll say this.... it's entirely possible that Trump got enough of what Tapper said to understand what he was asking. And, something more could be in play. And I think it is, just based on what I know of The Donald.

He's gotten pretty friendly with the media. They're covering him pretty fairly, by in large. CNN is giving him more airtime than all other candidates combined and doubled, I think. And the coverage he's getting is reasonable. This means that Trump's narrative of "the media are the most dishonest group of people" isn't as believable; it means that his credibility on that point is kind of slipping away.

In chess, we call what Trump did a "gambit." It's a small sacrifice for a greater gain. Now, it's not necessarily the case that this is where his head was, but it's possible that this is what he was thinking: control another news cycle by being strategically negligent: he's off just enough to create a "material fact" in dispute, which will polarize people. All of Trump's supporters are obviously going to come to defend him, but all the people who dislike him are going to descend like locusts.

If I was in Trump's shoes, I'd have probably done the same thing, although I might have handled it with more finesse. The reason is because Duke presents a real problem. Trump wants those white nationalist votes, and he wants their support online, but he also doesn't want to have to deal with the political fallout of not repudiating white supremacy.

So, he makes them "useful" to his electoral purposes, by making this a talking point.

White Americans are tired of being called a racist for every little thing. This is a little thing, and everyone in the Republican party is calling him a racist. Everyone in the Democratic party is calling him a racist. They are being politically correct. Trump is not being so politically correct. Trump is hinting at this: "Yeah, I'm tired of being called a racist for every little thing too."

The reason this is what I think is happening here is because it's consistent with his whole strategy of division: divide the base and all white voters from elites, generally, is what he tries to do. And this gambit, this act of strategic negligence, has put him front and center.

What no one is talking about is Marco Rubio or Ted Cruz. People are only talking about Trump, and that is what he wants, and that is why in the end he will win.
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thett3
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3/1/2016 4:15:36 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
I think it was a dumb move--Trump has the white nationalist vote locked down, full stop.

For once I don't think it was actually calculated. A combination of a lack of sleep, a grueling schedule, probably a bad earpiece, and annoyance at the media constantly asking him stupid questions and trying to tie him to racism made him basically say "F*ck you, I'm not playing your games"
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YYW
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3/1/2016 4:20:37 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 4:15:36 AM, thett3 wrote:
I think it was a dumb move--Trump has the white nationalist vote locked down, full stop.

For once I don't think it was actually calculated. A combination of a lack of sleep, a grueling schedule, probably a bad earpiece, and annoyance at the media constantly asking him stupid questions and trying to tie him to racism made him basically say "F*ck you, I'm not playing your games"

Maybe, and I think that version is more believable... but I also think this is useful for him... it makes Cruz and all the pundits look like fools chasing shadows in fog.
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/1/2016 4:41:34 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Trump is a racist though. People will support him but suggesting he's not a bigot is kind of a stretch. If you are going to support Trump, embrace the bigotry, say "yes, he's racist but it doesn't matter to me" and go for it. It's a little surprising to me that after all that happened over the past few months, people still argue that he isn't racist or bigoted.

At this point, I see most Trump support on this site as an elaborate troll of the rest of the site.
YYW
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3/1/2016 4:42:48 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 4:41:34 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Trump is a racist though. People will support him but suggesting he's not a bigot is kind of a stretch. If you are going to support Trump, embrace the bigotry, say "yes, he's racist but it doesn't matter to me" and go for it. It's a little surprising to me that after all that happened over the past few months, people still argue that he isn't racist or bigoted.

At this point, I see most Trump support on this site as an elaborate troll of the rest of the site.

What evidence do you have that Trump is a racist?
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/1/2016 4:45:59 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 4:42:48 AM, YYW wrote:

What evidence do you have that Trump is a racist?

On racism, besides the ties to KKK, he's called people of Mexican descent to be rapists, among other things. On bigotry in general, there was the well-publicized issue of shutting Muslims out of the country. Several other examples.
YYW
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3/1/2016 4:50:15 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 4:45:59 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/1/2016 4:42:48 AM, YYW wrote:

What evidence do you have that Trump is a racist?

On racism, besides the ties to KKK, he's called people of Mexican descent to be rapists, among other things. On bigotry in general, there was the well-publicized issue of shutting Muslims out of the country. Several other examples.

What ties to the KKK beyond the fact that David Duke endorsed Trump?

What has Trump said about Mexicans as a whole? He has never said that all Mexicans are rapists and killers. And there are some Mexicans who are rapists, some of whom emigrated illegally.

How is temporarily closing the borders to a group of people known to harbor terrorists racist? Doesn't seem racist. Seems more pragmatic than going to war. Maybe it appears to be racist at first glance, but more than a moment's thought suggests otherwise.
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dylancatlow
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3/1/2016 4:55:10 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 4:15:36 AM, thett3 wrote:
I think it was a dumb move--Trump has the white nationalist vote locked down, full stop.

Agreed.

For once I don't think it was actually calculated. A combination of a lack of sleep, a grueling schedule, probably a bad earpiece, and annoyance at the media constantly asking him stupid questions and trying to tie him to racism made him basically say "F*ck you, I'm not playing your games"

How could it be a bad earpiece though? He repeated everything he was being asked back to the reporter, so he obviously could hear well enough.
000ike
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3/1/2016 4:57:45 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 4:41:34 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Trump is a racist though. People will support him but suggesting he's not a bigot is kind of a stretch. If you are going to support Trump, embrace the bigotry, say "yes, he's racist but it doesn't matter to me" and go for it. It's a little surprising to me that after all that happened over the past few months, people still argue that he isn't racist or bigoted.

At this point, I see most Trump support on this site as an elaborate troll of the rest of the site.

Oh come on. He doesn't possess enough conviction to be a racist. He's a lying opportunist who says and does whatever furthers his ends. His campaign is the venture of a starving ego.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/1/2016 5:03:43 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 4:50:15 AM, YYW wrote:
At 3/1/2016 4:45:59 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/1/2016 4:42:48 AM, YYW wrote:

What evidence do you have that Trump is a racist?

On racism, besides the ties to KKK, he's called people of Mexican descent to be rapists, among other things. On bigotry in general, there was the well-publicized issue of shutting Muslims out of the country. Several other examples.

What ties to the KKK beyond the fact that David Duke endorsed Trump?

What has Trump said about Mexicans as a whole? He has never said that all Mexicans are rapists and killers. And there are some Mexicans who are rapists, some of whom emigrated illegally.

How is temporarily closing the borders to a group of people known to harbor terrorists racist? Doesn't seem racist. Seems more pragmatic than going to war. Maybe it appears to be racist at first glance, but more than a moment's thought suggests otherwise.

Regarding KKK, the full story is here: http://www.politico.com...

Also, look at the video where he says "I disavow, okay?" It's like he's almost being sarcastic. It's clear he doesn't want to disavow them but feel like he's being forced to. It was similar to the "reprimand" that he gave one of his supporters a few months ago as a joke because the media crucified him for not reprimanding somebody else before. He was just trying to make the questioner happy.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
His comments about Mexicans are here. He does a little word-twisting but the message is basically, "Mexican immigrants are typically rapists, criminals and so on and so forth." Also, see #3 and #1 for more outrageous forms of racism.

"Racist" isn't the technically correct word for discrimination against a religion. Like I said, "bigot" or "prejudiced" more accurately describe it since muslims aren't a race. Putting immigration on hold until a problem is worked out is reasonable. The issue with Trump's statement is that he's specifically targeting muslims based on their religion. Terrorists come from all races, religions, and colors. And how is Trump even going to figure out who's a muslim? Ask them? I assume a terrorist would claim to not be a muslim so he can enter the country.
000ike
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3/1/2016 5:04:40 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 4:55:10 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/1/2016 4:15:36 AM, thett3 wrote:
I think it was a dumb move--Trump has the white nationalist vote locked down, full stop.

Agreed.

For once I don't think it was actually calculated. A combination of a lack of sleep, a grueling schedule, probably a bad earpiece, and annoyance at the media constantly asking him stupid questions and trying to tie him to racism made him basically say "F*ck you, I'm not playing your games"

How could it be a bad earpiece though? He repeated everything he was being asked back to the reporter, so he obviously could hear well enough.

There a 0% chance his earpiece malfunctioned. It was pointed out that he had used the same device earlier without issue. If he couldn't hear, he would have first of all attempted to adjust it or press it against his ear (as pundits often do) and he would have second of all asked Jake Tapper to repeat his questions or informed him of his difficulty.

He heard everything. He's lying. And it's a terrible, transparent lie.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
YYW
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3/1/2016 5:50:49 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 5:03:43 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/1/2016 4:50:15 AM, YYW wrote:
At 3/1/2016 4:45:59 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/1/2016 4:42:48 AM, YYW wrote:

What evidence do you have that Trump is a racist?

On racism, besides the ties to KKK, he's called people of Mexican descent to be rapists, among other things. On bigotry in general, there was the well-publicized issue of shutting Muslims out of the country. Several other examples.

What ties to the KKK beyond the fact that David Duke endorsed Trump?

What has Trump said about Mexicans as a whole? He has never said that all Mexicans are rapists and killers. And there are some Mexicans who are rapists, some of whom emigrated illegally.

How is temporarily closing the borders to a group of people known to harbor terrorists racist? Doesn't seem racist. Seems more pragmatic than going to war. Maybe it appears to be racist at first glance, but more than a moment's thought suggests otherwise.

Regarding KKK, the full story is here: http://www.politico.com...

Also, look at the video where he says "I disavow, okay?" It's like he's almost being sarcastic. It's clear he doesn't want to disavow them but feel like he's being forced to. It was similar to the "reprimand" that he gave one of his supporters a few months ago as a joke because the media crucified him for not reprimanding somebody else before. He was just trying to make the questioner happy.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
His comments about Mexicans are here. He does a little word-twisting but the message is basically, "Mexican immigrants are typically rapists, criminals and so on and so forth." Also, see #3 and #1 for more outrageous forms of racism.

"Racist" isn't the technically correct word for discrimination against a religion. Like I said, "bigot" or "prejudiced" more accurately describe it since muslims aren't a race. Putting immigration on hold until a problem is worked out is reasonable. The issue with Trump's statement is that he's specifically targeting muslims based on their religion. Terrorists come from all races, religions, and colors. And how is Trump even going to figure out who's a muslim? Ask them? I assume a terrorist would claim to not be a muslim so he can enter the country.

I'm not persuaded. Trump has mentioned some stereotypes and some people have endorsed him because of that. That doesn't make him a racist. It's amazing to me how so many these days desperately try to portray the right, or members of it, as always already racist.

That's been going on since the 1970s, and it's just as damp now as it was then. Some members of the right are racists. Most are not. Trump is not racist, even though he's reflected what some people on the right think. This is because a person is not a racist, or reasonably describable as a racist unless there is clear and convincing proof of the alternative.

Now of course if your standard for what makes a racist a "racist" is something as low or nebulous as a micro-aggression, then sure... there he might be a racist, but the reality is that if that's the standard, then everyone's a racist... but then that means no one is a racist because to be a racist requires of necessity that people hold more prejudices against other races; if all are always already prejudiced, then to be prejudiced is the norm, and no one is prejudiced.

So, again... I'm not convinced. Though I'm probably more skeptical about this kind of thing than you're going to find among most people with my level of education because the norm is that the longer you lurk around academia, the more inclined you become to see racism in everything. It's kind of like taking LSD with a predisposition towards schizophrenia. (Maybe my analogy is too reckless... but you get the point.)
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YYW
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3/1/2016 5:52:42 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 5:04:40 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/1/2016 4:55:10 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/1/2016 4:15:36 AM, thett3 wrote:
I think it was a dumb move--Trump has the white nationalist vote locked down, full stop.

Agreed.

For once I don't think it was actually calculated. A combination of a lack of sleep, a grueling schedule, probably a bad earpiece, and annoyance at the media constantly asking him stupid questions and trying to tie him to racism made him basically say "F*ck you, I'm not playing your games"

How could it be a bad earpiece though? He repeated everything he was being asked back to the reporter, so he obviously could hear well enough.

There a 0% chance his earpiece malfunctioned. It was pointed out that he had used the same device earlier without issue. If he couldn't hear, he would have first of all attempted to adjust it or press it against his ear (as pundits often do) and he would have second of all asked Jake Tapper to repeat his questions or informed him of his difficulty.

He heard everything. He's lying. And it's a terrible, transparent lie.

This is stupid. I've actually worn those ear pieces and some of them work, while others do not. Or maybe Trump is going deaf in one ear because he's old. It's possible.

Frankly, a more reasonable explanation than Ike's emphatic "NO!!!! NO!!!! NO!!!!!" is that Trump probably heard some of the question and was confused because he already disavowed last friday and was then being asked the same thing again and was like ...wtf.
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YYW
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3/1/2016 6:01:20 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 5:03:43 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Regarding KKK, the full story is here: http://www.politico.com...

Also, look at the video where he says "I disavow, okay?" It's like he's almost being sarcastic. It's clear he doesn't want to disavow them but feel like he's being forced to. It was similar to the "reprimand" that he gave one of his supporters a few months ago as a joke because the media crucified him for not reprimanding somebody else before. He was just trying to make the questioner happy.

I also want to particularly and specifically disagree with this. The fact is that the only reason that the media asks politicians about being endorsed by the KKK whether they disavow the KKK is to create political scandals. There is no politician in this country that supports the KKK. The question shouldn't even have been asked.

I see his tone as indicative of "This is really what you have lowered yourself too? You are this pathetic to ask me about David Duke? Please... piss off, you peon."

That's how his tone comes through to me.

But then again... there are a LOT of social justice warriors who call me a racist so... there you go.

But seriously... the suggestion that Trump needed to disavow the KKK is stupid on its face. The only reason that even got coverage was because the media wanted a scandal. Even though the Black Panthers endorsed Obama, was that a controversy? No. Not even on FOX. The closest thing to a scandal on the Left was Newt Gingrich's myth of Saul Alinski's so-called "radicalism" and the extent to which Obama was associated with it.
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/1/2016 6:02:31 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 5:50:49 AM, YYW wrote:
I'm not persuaded. Trump has mentioned some stereotypes and some people have endorsed him because of that. That doesn't make him a racist. It's amazing to me how so many these days desperately try to portray the right, or members of it, as always already racist.

That's been going on since the 1970s, and it's just as damp now as it was then. Some members of the right are racists. Most are not. Trump is not racist, even though he's reflected what some people on the right think. This is because a person is not a racist, or reasonably describable as a racist unless there is clear and convincing proof of the alternative.

Now of course if your standard for what makes a racist a "racist" is something as low or nebulous as a micro-aggression, then sure... there he might be a racist, but the reality is that if that's the standard, then everyone's a racist... but then that means no one is a racist because to be a racist requires of necessity that people hold more prejudices against other races; if all are always already prejudiced, then to be prejudiced is the norm, and no one is prejudiced.

So, again... I'm not convinced. Though I'm probably more skeptical about this kind of thing than you're going to find among most people with my level of education because the norm is that the longer you lurk around academia, the more inclined you become to see racism in everything. It's kind of like taking LSD with a predisposition towards schizophrenia. (Maybe my analogy is too reckless... but you get the point.)

I don't really expect to persuade you. You are pretty set about your beliefs. It's true that some people accuse people of other races of being racist for the tiniest of things and sometimes for co-incidences. I've more than once read a news article describing "racism" and thought "this is the stupidest thing I've heard, why can't it be co-incidence?" All the same, that shouldn't take away from the fact that racism does exist in the United States and a lot of what Trump is doing isn't at the same level as say, the examples listed here (http://www.debate.org...).

On one hand, conservative-oriented people point out dumb things like a University saying asking an Asian person for help in Math is racist and call it political correctness to give it a bad name. Then Trump talks about how "political correctness" is ruining our country and goes on to say "politically incorrect" things like "ban muslims."
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/1/2016 6:06:27 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
I've read an study once (it was long ago so I can't source it) but the participants of the study were apparently shown a white man walking down a street and others were shown a black man walking down a street and asked to describe what was happening.

Overwhelmingly, the participants described the black man as a "black man" and the white man as a "man." That's the sort of subtle racism that runs through many people's minds where they don't realize they are being racist, yet when they see a white guy, they just see a guy, but when it's a black guy, they see a "black guy."
YYW
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3/1/2016 6:07:08 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 6:02:31 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/1/2016 5:50:49 AM, YYW wrote:
I'm not persuaded. Trump has mentioned some stereotypes and some people have endorsed him because of that. That doesn't make him a racist. It's amazing to me how so many these days desperately try to portray the right, or members of it, as always already racist.

That's been going on since the 1970s, and it's just as damp now as it was then. Some members of the right are racists. Most are not. Trump is not racist, even though he's reflected what some people on the right think. This is because a person is not a racist, or reasonably describable as a racist unless there is clear and convincing proof of the alternative.

Now of course if your standard for what makes a racist a "racist" is something as low or nebulous as a micro-aggression, then sure... there he might be a racist, but the reality is that if that's the standard, then everyone's a racist... but then that means no one is a racist because to be a racist requires of necessity that people hold more prejudices against other races; if all are always already prejudiced, then to be prejudiced is the norm, and no one is prejudiced.

So, again... I'm not convinced. Though I'm probably more skeptical about this kind of thing than you're going to find among most people with my level of education because the norm is that the longer you lurk around academia, the more inclined you become to see racism in everything. It's kind of like taking LSD with a predisposition towards schizophrenia. (Maybe my analogy is too reckless... but you get the point.)

I don't really expect to persuade you. You are pretty set about your beliefs. It's true that some people accuse people of other races of being racist for the tiniest of things and sometimes for co-incidences. I've more than once read a news article describing "racism" and thought "this is the stupidest thing I've heard, why can't it be co-incidence?" All the same, that shouldn't take away from the fact that racism does exist in the United States and a lot of what Trump is doing isn't at the same level as say, the examples listed here (http://www.debate.org...).

On one hand, conservative-oriented people point out dumb things like a University saying asking an Asian person for help in Math is racist and call it political correctness to give it a bad name. Then Trump talks about how "political correctness" is ruining our country and goes on to say "politically incorrect" things like "ban muslims."

I'm going to object to the extent that you're suggesting I'm a conservative. I'm not a conservative. I'm like a -7, -7 on the political compass... that's like the anthesis of "conservatism." I'm closer to a Russian anarchist than I am to anyone in Mainstream America. (Well, really, I'm closer to Chomsky... but the point remains.)

What I take issue with is this reckless use of the word "racist." There are real racists in the United States; people who would celebrate burning crosses in the yards of black families. That happens every few years here. People who would hang nooses on college campuses. People who follow David Duke on twitter.

But these things do not make Donald Trump a racist. It's just not there. Being a xenophobe, even, which is as far as you could reasonably go, does not make him a racist.
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YYW
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3/1/2016 6:09:15 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 6:06:27 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I've read an study once (it was long ago so I can't source it) but the participants of the study were apparently shown a white man walking down a street and others were shown a black man walking down a street and asked to describe what was happening.

Overwhelmingly, the participants described the black man as a "black man" and the white man as a "man." That's the sort of subtle racism that runs through many people's minds where they don't realize they are being racist, yet when they see a white guy, they just see a guy, but when it's a black guy, they see a "black guy."

I agree that that's a problem, but the only reason that people make categorizations like that is because of the mythical constructs that postmodern liberals have invented for them for the purpose of ongoing racial categorization. Every time we even talk about diversity, racism is reinforced because it necessitates identifying people on the basis of their race rather than as people.
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/1/2016 6:11:00 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 6:07:08 AM, YYW wrote:

What I take issue with is this reckless use of the word "racist." There are real racists in the United States; people who would celebrate burning crosses in the yards of black families. That happens every few years here. People who would hang nooses on college campuses. People who follow David Duke on twitter.

Racism exists in many forms. I don't think defining racist as "someone that committed a violent hate crime" is accurate. Like I said regarding Trump, bigoted or prejudiced might be more accurate to describe his stance on muslims since it's a religion he's prejudiced against, not a "race" but it is a small technical matter. I'd just as well argue that Trump shouldn't be elected because he's a bigot.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/1/2016 6:15:05 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 6:09:15 AM, YYW wrote:

I agree that that's a problem, but the only reason that people make categorizations like that is because of the mythical constructs that postmodern liberals have invented for them for the purpose of ongoing racial categorization. Every time we even talk about diversity, racism is reinforced because it necessitates identifying people on the basis of their race rather than as people.

I disagree that it is liberals who make categorizations. I don't really agree with forcing diversity. I think the problem should be addressed at its root by stamping out racist tendencies. Hiring managers should be taught to not care about a person's race as opposed to being taught that they should hire some people of each race so they look like they are promoting diversity.
1Percenter
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3/1/2016 7:37:23 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
It was a mistake for Trump to disavow David Duke. It probably won't matter, but it was a mistake nonetheless. In his interview with Tapper, Trump by instinct knew not to jump through hoops on the media's command. From now on they will force him to disavow more and more of his supporters, and each time he refuses to do so it will become another front-page headline. This interview was the third time he was supposed to disavow David Duke in one weekend. Trump should have pointed out that no candidate should ever renounce their supporters as just because someone supports your actions doesn't mean you support theirs.
Greyparrot
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3/1/2016 7:57:53 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Think about this YYW.
To get the GOP establishment to attack Trump on the wall they were forced by Trump to defend amnesty and the glories of unbridled immigration.

To get the GOP establishment to attack Trump on his success as a businessman, Rubio was forced by Trump to defend socialism and anti-capitalism.

To get the GOP establishment to attack Trump on the KKK issue they were forced by Trump to pull out the race card.

Every time the establishment attacks Trump, Rubio and the GOP establishment ends up looking more and more like...like a supreme liberal....

Just think about it...let this digest...A GOP so desperate, that they have to pull the race card...Conservatives...pulling...the ...racecard.

God, please, let this GOP establishment die quietly.
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,043
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3/1/2016 8:27:30 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 4:57:45 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/1/2016 4:41:34 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Drumpf is a racist though. People will support him but suggesting he's not a bigot is kind of a stretch. If you are going to support Drumpf, embrace the bigotry, say "yes, he's racist but it doesn't matter to me" and go for it. It's a little surprising to me that after all that happened over the past few months, people still argue that he isn't racist or bigoted.

At this point, I see most Drumpf support on this site as an elaborate troll of the rest of the site.

Oh come on. He doesn't possess enough conviction to be a racist. He's a lying opportunist who says and does whatever furthers his ends. His campaign is the venture of a starving ego.

I partially agree, he is trying to feed his ego, but I do believe he holds genuinely fascist and racist views. He used to keep a book of Hitler's speeches on his bedside table.
BrendanD19
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3/1/2016 8:45:37 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
I think we need to really look at what is happening around the world as well. Trump is the American franchise of the Right Wing Populist wave that is going on around the world, but especially in Europe.
In Europe we see these far-right parties like UKIP, the Front National, Lega Nord, Golden Dawn, etc.
They are playing on anti-immigrant fears and xenophobia to gain support, and they genuinely believe these things.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/1/2016 9:00:33 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 4:04:57 AM, YYW wrote:
I've seen the interview with Jake Tapper like dozens of times. Trump didn't answer the question Tapper asked; Trump was talking about "groups of white supremacists" and Tapper was just asking about the KKK. Trump did say "David Duke" twice, and that Trump didn't know who Duke was though... which got me thinking...

What is really going on here?

The idea that Trump would openly fail to disavow a noteworthy white supremacist who once ran for the office of the Governor of Louisiana is fairly inane, mainly, because (1) Trump literally did say that he did at a press conference last Friday; and (2) Trump is not so stupid as to support white supremacy. It just doesn't make sense.

It's reasonably idiotic to conclude that Trump fully understood what Tapper was asking, and the bad mic is plausible, given that technology can fail at the most critical times. But I'll say this.... it's entirely possible that Trump got enough of what Tapper said to understand what he was asking. And, something more could be in play. And I think it is, just based on what I know of The Donald.

He's gotten pretty friendly with the media. They're covering him pretty fairly, by in large. CNN is giving him more airtime than all other candidates combined and doubled, I think. And the coverage he's getting is reasonable. This means that Trump's narrative of "the media are the most dishonest group of people" isn't as believable; it means that his credibility on that point is kind of slipping away.

In chess, we call what Trump did a "gambit." It's a small sacrifice for a greater gain. Now, it's not necessarily the case that this is where his head was, but it's possible that this is what he was thinking: control another news cycle by being strategically negligent: he's off just enough to create a "material fact" in dispute, which will polarize people. All of Trump's supporters are obviously going to come to defend him, but all the people who dislike him are going to descend like locusts.

If I was in Trump's shoes, I'd have probably done the same thing, although I might have handled it with more finesse. The reason is because Duke presents a real problem. Trump wants those white nationalist votes, and he wants their support online, but he also doesn't want to have to deal with the political fallout of not repudiating white supremacy.

So, he makes them "useful" to his electoral purposes, by making this a talking point.

White Americans are tired of being called a racist for every little thing. This is a little thing, and everyone in the Republican party is calling him a racist. Everyone in the Democratic party is calling him a racist. They are being politically correct. Trump is not being so politically correct. Trump is hinting at this: "Yeah, I'm tired of being called a racist for every little thing too."

The reason this is what I think is happening here is because it's consistent with his whole strategy of division: divide the base and all white voters from elites, generally, is what he tries to do. And this gambit, this act of strategic negligence, has put him front and center.

What no one is talking about is Marco Rubio or Ted Cruz. People are only talking about Trump, and that is what he wants, and that is why in the end he will win.

If you watch the interview, there are several clear takeaways

* He WAS having trouble hearing. He was leaning in, squinting, looking like he was having issues understanding the questions.
* He is saying - in effect - "don't ask me to condemn groups I know nothing about". That is NOT in response to Duke, but into the further question "condemning groups that...."
* He knows, and understood who Duke is, just had no idea that Duke had "endorsed" him, and didn't care if he had.

I am no Trump supporter, but this is NOT some great point here. Trump is odious enough without trying hard to fit him into this charge. Let him be a jerk when he is, and you will get more grist, but this was not it.
000ike
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3/1/2016 9:51:17 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 9:00:33 PM, TBR wrote:

If you watch the interview, there are several clear takeaways

* He WAS having trouble hearing. He was leaning in, squinting, looking like he was having issues understanding the questions.
* He is saying - in effect - "don't ask me to condemn groups I know nothing about". That is NOT in response to Duke, but into the further question "condemning groups that...."
* He knows, and understood who Duke is, just had no idea that Duke had "endorsed" him, and didn't care if he had.

I am no Trump supporter, but this is NOT some great point here. Trump is odious enough without trying hard to fit him into this charge. Let him be a jerk when he is, and you will get more grist, but this was not it.

We may be speculating, but there IS a truth of the matter.... and I don't think what you've written here comes close to it. Why would Trump be able to hear 'david duke' and 'white supremacy' in every instance it was mentioned but not 'ku klux klan'? Why wouldn't he ask for the question to be repeated? How come the ear piece worked fine until that moment (on CNN, they mentioned that he used it earlier with no problem)?

And you do understand that Trump KNEW who David Duke was, right? It's been demonstrated that he commented on Duke days prior and had made very explicit renunciation of him several years ago. He lied and said he didn't know. What you (and every other apologist on this thread) don't understand is that when he said 'other groups' in response to Tapper's question, he intended to diffuse the subject so he wouldn't have to alienate potential voters.

When he came out hours later and said "I disavow".... he was visibly reluctant, almost sarcastic in his gestures.

Literally every pundit invited to speak yesterday on CNN (save for the Trump supporters) had a very hard time believing he wasn't lying.

[this isn't at you, I know you don't support Trump] I don't know why DDO is infested with people who just have this warped perception of the things he says and does.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/1/2016 9:56:51 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 9:51:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/1/2016 9:00:33 PM, TBR wrote:

If you watch the interview, there are several clear takeaways

* He WAS having trouble hearing. He was leaning in, squinting, looking like he was having issues understanding the questions.
* He is saying - in effect - "don't ask me to condemn groups I know nothing about". That is NOT in response to Duke, but into the further question "condemning groups that...."
* He knows, and understood who Duke is, just had no idea that Duke had "endorsed" him, and didn't care if he had.

I am no Trump supporter, but this is NOT some great point here. Trump is odious enough without trying hard to fit him into this charge. Let him be a jerk when he is, and you will get more grist, but this was not it.

We may be speculating, but there IS a truth of the matter.... and I don't think what you've written here comes close to it. Why would Trump be able to hear 'david duke' and 'white supremacy' in every instance it was mentioned but not 'ku klux klan'? Why wouldn't he ask for the question to be repeated? How come the ear piece worked fine until that moment (on CNN, they mentioned that he used it earlier with no problem)?

And you do understand that Trump KNEW who David Duke was, right? It's been demonstrated that he commented on Duke days prior and had made very explicit renunciation of him several years ago. He lied and said he didn't know. What you (and every other apologist on this thread) don't understand is that when he said 'other groups' in response to Tapper's question, he intended to diffuse the subject so he wouldn't have to alienate potential voters.

When he came out hours later and said "I disavow".... he was visibly reluctant, almost sarcastic in his gestures.

Literally every pundit invited to speak yesterday on CNN (save for the Trump supporters) had a very hard time believing he wasn't lying.

[this isn't at you, I know you don't support Trump] I don't know why DDO is infested with people who just have this warped perception of the things he says and does.

I have no doubt that Trump knows who Duke is. I also have no doubt that he understood the "tone" of the conversation, that it that it was about raciest organizations.

Now, call ME a Trump apologist is... insane. What I am saying is, if you watch the interview there is no there there. I have better quotes from Trump that are NOT ambiguous to say he is a raciest prick, this is just not one of them.
GeoLaureate8
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3/1/2016 10:11:23 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 7:57:53 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Think about this YYW.
To get the GOP establishment to attack Trump on the wall they were forced by Trump to defend amnesty and the glories of unbridled immigration.

Reagan was for amnesty. Rubio is tougher on immigration than Reagan.

It's not conservative to pay for an expensive ineffective wall that violates property rights.

Ronald Reagan was against a wall and against deportation.

To get the GOP establishment to attack Trump on his success as a businessman, Rubio was forced by Trump to defend socialism and anti-capitalism.

Trump was attacked for his cronyism, four bankrupt companies, and business fraud.

Conservatives are against cronyism. Inheriting millions isn't rugged individualism. Using bankruptcy laws to loot the taxpayer to bail you out is not conservative.

To get the GOP establishment to attack Trump on the KKK issue they were forced by Trump to pull out the race card.

Wrong. The Republicans have always been against racism. Trump cant denounce the racist Democrat group known as the KKK?

Every time the establishment attacks Trump, Rubio and the GOP establishment ends up looking more and more like...like a supreme liberal....

Wrong. Rubio & Cruz have supreme conservative credentials and they are slamming Trump as not conservative on the issues, not steadfastly principled, and not even a successful example of free market capitalism.

Just think about it...let this digest...A GOP so desperate, that they have to pull the race card...Conservatives...pulling...the ...racecard.

God, please, let this GOP establishment die quietly.

Sorry, but Ron Paul is right. Trump is worse than the establishment.

Also, I don't consider Cruz or Rubio to be establishment. They were both elected by the Tea Party.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat