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The Rise of American Authoritarianism

EndarkenedRationalist
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3/2/2016 2:31:16 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
A truly powerful and intriguing article. It's long, I grant, but well worth the read. Many of our own Trump supporters - and detractors - should have interesting things to say about it.

Essentially, the article argues that fear - fear of a crumbling social order and social institutions, fear of terrorism and foreign threats, the white working class' fear of losing not only the general privileged position of whites but also their majority status - combined with economic malaise (despite the fact that the economy has improved, the white working class has not felt this improvement) has awakened or triggered a sense of latent authoritarianism. This has split the GOP, and will continue splitting the GOP even if Trump loses, into establishment and authoritarian sects.

http://www.vox.com...
Reformist
Posts: 679
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3/2/2016 2:34:57 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 2:31:16 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
A truly powerful and intriguing article. It's long, I grant, but well worth the read. Many of our own Trump supporters - and detractors - should have interesting things to say about it.

Essentially, the article argues that fear - fear of a crumbling social order and social institutions, fear of terrorism and foreign threats, the white working class' fear of losing not only the general privileged position of whites but also their majority status - combined with economic malaise (despite the fact that the economy has improved, the white working class has not felt this improvement) has awakened or triggered a sense of latent authoritarianism. This has split the GOP, and will continue splitting the GOP even if Trump loses, into establishment and authoritarian sects.

http://www.vox.com...

Sounds good

Perhaps I could have a part in it

Good read
DDO History Revival Officer
Fuher of the Reich

"I'm not Asian"-Vaarka

"I would rather have a fascist than a socialist in office"- Bball

To be a feminist or to be smart that is the question
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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3/2/2016 2:47:03 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 2:34:57 PM, Reformist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:31:16 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
A truly powerful and intriguing article. It's long, I grant, but well worth the read. Many of our own Trump supporters - and detractors - should have interesting things to say about it.

Essentially, the article argues that fear - fear of a crumbling social order and social institutions, fear of terrorism and foreign threats, the white working class' fear of losing not only the general privileged position of whites but also their majority status - combined with economic malaise (despite the fact that the economy has improved, the white working class has not felt this improvement) has awakened or triggered a sense of latent authoritarianism. This has split the GOP, and will continue splitting the GOP even if Trump loses, into establishment and authoritarian sects.

http://www.vox.com...

Sounds good

Perhaps I could have a part in it

Good read

Why is it good?
Reformist
Posts: 679
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3/2/2016 2:51:33 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 2:47:03 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:34:57 PM, Reformist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:31:16 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
A truly powerful and intriguing article. It's long, I grant, but well worth the read. Many of our own Trump supporters - and detractors - should have interesting things to say about it.

Essentially, the article argues that fear - fear of a crumbling social order and social institutions, fear of terrorism and foreign threats, the white working class' fear of losing not only the general privileged position of whites but also their majority status - combined with economic malaise (despite the fact that the economy has improved, the white working class has not felt this improvement) has awakened or triggered a sense of latent authoritarianism. This has split the GOP, and will continue splitting the GOP even if Trump loses, into establishment and authoritarian sects.

http://www.vox.com...

Sounds good

Perhaps I could have a part in it

Good read

Why is it good?

We can focus more on american woekers, illegal immigration will be halted and we can have more power to stop things such as Isis or other problems with one leader
DDO History Revival Officer
Fuher of the Reich

"I'm not Asian"-Vaarka

"I would rather have a fascist than a socialist in office"- Bball

To be a feminist or to be smart that is the question
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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3/2/2016 4:58:25 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 2:51:33 PM, Reformist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:47:03 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:34:57 PM, Reformist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:31:16 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
A truly powerful and intriguing article. It's long, I grant, but well worth the read. Many of our own Trump supporters - and detractors - should have interesting things to say about it.

Essentially, the article argues that fear - fear of a crumbling social order and social institutions, fear of terrorism and foreign threats, the white working class' fear of losing not only the general privileged position of whites but also their majority status - combined with economic malaise (despite the fact that the economy has improved, the white working class has not felt this improvement) has awakened or triggered a sense of latent authoritarianism. This has split the GOP, and will continue splitting the GOP even if Trump loses, into establishment and authoritarian sects.

http://www.vox.com...

Sounds good

Perhaps I could have a part in it

Good read

Why is it good?

We can focus more on american woekers, illegal immigration will be halted and we can have more power to stop things such as Isis or other problems with one leader

How will we do any of those things?
Reformist
Posts: 679
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3/2/2016 5:05:48 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 4:58:25 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:51:33 PM, Reformist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:47:03 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:34:57 PM, Reformist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:31:16 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
A truly powerful and intriguing article. It's long, I grant, but well worth the read. Many of our own Trump supporters - and detractors - should have interesting things to say about it.

Essentially, the article argues that fear - fear of a crumbling social order and social institutions, fear of terrorism and foreign threats, the white working class' fear of losing not only the general privileged position of whites but also their majority status - combined with economic malaise (despite the fact that the economy has improved, the white working class has not felt this improvement) has awakened or triggered a sense of latent authoritarianism. This has split the GOP, and will continue splitting the GOP even if Trump loses, into establishment and authoritarian sects.

http://www.vox.com...

Sounds good

Perhaps I could have a part in it

Good read

Why is it good?

We can focus more on american woekers, illegal immigration will be halted and we can have more power to stop things such as Isis or other problems with one leader

How will we do any of those things?

What do you mean? Donald Trump will make a wall and has already promised higher military spending to defeat isis
DDO History Revival Officer
Fuher of the Reich

"I'm not Asian"-Vaarka

"I would rather have a fascist than a socialist in office"- Bball

To be a feminist or to be smart that is the question
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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3/2/2016 5:06:54 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 5:05:48 PM, Reformist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 4:58:25 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:51:33 PM, Reformist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:47:03 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:34:57 PM, Reformist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:31:16 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
A truly powerful and intriguing article. It's long, I grant, but well worth the read. Many of our own Trump supporters - and detractors - should have interesting things to say about it.

Essentially, the article argues that fear - fear of a crumbling social order and social institutions, fear of terrorism and foreign threats, the white working class' fear of losing not only the general privileged position of whites but also their majority status - combined with economic malaise (despite the fact that the economy has improved, the white working class has not felt this improvement) has awakened or triggered a sense of latent authoritarianism. This has split the GOP, and will continue splitting the GOP even if Trump loses, into establishment and authoritarian sects.

http://www.vox.com...

Sounds good

Perhaps I could have a part in it

Good read

Why is it good?

We can focus more on american woekers, illegal immigration will be halted and we can have more power to stop things such as Isis or other problems with one leader

How will we do any of those things?

What do you mean? Donald Trump will make a wall and has already promised higher military spending to defeat isis

Where will that money come from? How will higher military spending - when the US already spends more on its military than the next 27 countries in the world combined - help defeat ISIS?
Reformist
Posts: 679
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3/2/2016 5:44:40 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 5:06:54 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 5:05:48 PM, Reformist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 4:58:25 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:51:33 PM, Reformist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:47:03 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:34:57 PM, Reformist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:31:16 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
A truly powerful and intriguing article. It's long, I grant, but well worth the read. Many of our own Trump supporters - and detractors - should have interesting things to say about it.

Essentially, the article argues that fear - fear of a crumbling social order and social institutions, fear of terrorism and foreign threats, the white working class' fear of losing not only the general privileged position of whites but also their majority status - combined with economic malaise (despite the fact that the economy has improved, the white working class has not felt this improvement) has awakened or triggered a sense of latent authoritarianism. This has split the GOP, and will continue splitting the GOP even if Trump loses, into establishment and authoritarian sects.

http://www.vox.com...

Sounds good

Perhaps I could have a part in it

Good read

Why is it good?

We can focus more on american woekers, illegal immigration will be halted and we can have more power to stop things such as Isis or other problems with one leader

How will we do any of those things?

What do you mean? Donald Trump will make a wall and has already promised higher military spending to defeat isis

Where will that money come from? How will higher military spending - when the US already spends more on its military than the next 27 countries in the world combined - help defeat ISIS?

Illegal immigration costs 113 billion dollars to sustain. Higher military will make america a linterventist nation
DDO History Revival Officer
Fuher of the Reich

"I'm not Asian"-Vaarka

"I would rather have a fascist than a socialist in office"- Bball

To be a feminist or to be smart that is the question
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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3/2/2016 5:52:22 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 2:31:16 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
A truly powerful and intriguing article. It's long, I grant, but well worth the read. Many of our own Trump supporters - and detractors - should have interesting things to say about it.

Essentially, the article argues that fear - fear of a crumbling social order and social institutions, fear of terrorism and foreign threats, the white working class' fear of losing not only the general privileged position of whites but also their majority status - combined with economic malaise (despite the fact that the economy has improved, the white working class has not felt this improvement) has awakened or triggered a sense of latent authoritarianism. This has split the GOP, and will continue splitting the GOP even if Trump loses, into establishment and authoritarian sects.

http://www.vox.com...

Lol Vox.... I love the pearl-clutching, as if Trump will be seig-heiling his way into the White House over the desecrated corpses of Mexicans and Muslims.

The social research is for the most part sound, but the spin is ludicrous, and is part of the deliberate 'Trump is crypto-Hitler' narrative on the left (summed up beautifully by a cringe-worthingly lame 'drumpf' moniker. I thought that we as a nation couldn't top 'Obummer' as a stupid nickname, but I underestimated the great American people).

Trump is well aware of the existence of authoritarians, and is playing them like a fiddle as a significant part of his constituency. While his rhetoric, and some vague red-meat talking points, may appeal to them, his actual positions are pretty far from what they would want. (Economic pressure on North Korea instead of war, no stance on gay marriage, cordial relations with Russia, etc. etc.). Trump isn't an idiot. He knows that he needs to pivot center in order to defeat Hillary, and he's set things up so that he can maintain a few defensible authoritarian positions (The Wall, Muslim immigration, etc.) while actually flanking Hillary on things like foreign policy.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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3/2/2016 6:32:04 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
It's not difficult to see why authoritarians would favor Trump. He takes very hardline stances against illegal immigrants, against Muslims, and against China in a world full of politicians cautious to say anything that might offend. All the other candidates lean toward more peaceful solutions to these issues- solution that come across to authoritarians as weak and ineffective. Moreover, his general attitude - the way he interacts with reporters, with other candidates - paints him as the "tough guy" candidate, which appeals to authoritarians as well. He flaunted all the niceties of political discourse on a regular basis before it was cool. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that Trump is an authoritarian. I agree with Skep that the left's attempt compare Trump to Hitler is unworthy of our attention. The reason to oppose Trump is not because he's "like Hitler". The reason to oppose him is because he's belligerent and vacuous, too arrogant to function, and utterly incompetent.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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3/2/2016 6:40:15 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
And I can't help but think that many of Trump's supporter are behind him simply because they think he would be an entertaining disaster and that "out of the ashes" something better would arise.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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3/2/2016 6:50:02 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 5:52:22 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:31:16 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
A truly powerful and intriguing article. It's long, I grant, but well worth the read. Many of our own Trump supporters - and detractors - should have interesting things to say about it.

Essentially, the article argues that fear - fear of a crumbling social order and social institutions, fear of terrorism and foreign threats, the white working class' fear of losing not only the general privileged position of whites but also their majority status - combined with economic malaise (despite the fact that the economy has improved, the white working class has not felt this improvement) has awakened or triggered a sense of latent authoritarianism. This has split the GOP, and will continue splitting the GOP even if Trump loses, into establishment and authoritarian sects.

http://www.vox.com...

Lol Vox.... I love the pearl-clutching, as if Trump will be seig-heiling his way into the White House over the desecrated corpses of Mexicans and Muslims.

The social research is for the most part sound, but the spin is ludicrous, and is part of the deliberate 'Trump is crypto-Hitler' narrative on the left (summed up beautifully by a cringe-worthingly lame 'drumpf' moniker. I thought that we as a nation couldn't top 'Obummer' as a stupid nickname, but I underestimated the great American people).

The spin is incredibly noticeable, but I'm less interested in that and more interested in this new fracture in the Republican Party. When I talked about anticipating the GOP's reformation, I was not anticipating it to get even worse with a frightened nationalist group demanding the preservation of culture.

Trump is well aware of the existence of authoritarians, and is playing them like a fiddle as a significant part of his constituency. While his rhetoric, and some vague red-meat talking points, may appeal to them, his actual positions are pretty far from what they would want. (Economic pressure on North Korea instead of war, no stance on gay marriage, cordial relations with Russia, etc. etc.). Trump isn't an idiot. He knows that he needs to pivot center in order to defeat Hillary, and he's set things up so that he can maintain a few defensible authoritarian positions (The Wall, Muslim immigration, etc.) while actually flanking Hillary on things like foreign policy.

The wall is "defensible."

The significance here is the long-reaching implications of this. America hasn't really had a significant authoritarian party.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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3/2/2016 6:50:46 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 6:32:04 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
It's not difficult to see why authoritarians would favor Trump. He takes very hardline stances against illegal immigrants, against Muslims, and against China in a world full of politicians cautious to say anything that might offend. All the other candidates lean toward more peaceful solutions to these issues- solution that come across to authoritarians as weak and ineffective. Moreover, his general attitude - the way he interacts with reporters, with other candidates - paints him as the "tough guy" candidate, which appeals to authoritarians as well. He flaunted all the niceties of political discourse on a regular basis before it was cool. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that Trump is an authoritarian. I agree with Skep that the left's attempt compare Trump to Hitler is unworthy of our attention. The reason to oppose Trump is not because he's "like Hitler". The reason to oppose him is because he's belligerent and vacuous, too arrogant to function, and utterly incompetent.

It would be profoundly stupid to dismiss such historical comparisons out of hand. Retrospection has a way of clarifying developments in a way that isn't accessible while they're in progress. And I refuse to believe that there's anything fundamentally different about the character and psychology of the average person that he would not fall prey to the same sort of manipulation that furnished the rise of hitler.

The best liars are not easily identifiable as such, and neither are the best demagogues.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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3/2/2016 6:51:19 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 6:40:15 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
And I can't help but think that many of Trump's supporter are behind him simply because they think he would be an entertaining disaster and that "out of the ashes" something better would arise.

I think that's the perspective on DDO (a la Thett and, to a lesser extent, YYW). But I'm not sure that holds as well in reality.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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3/2/2016 6:55:12 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 6:32:04 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
It's not difficult to see why authoritarians would favor Trump. He takes very hardline stances against illegal immigrants, against Muslims, and against China in a world full of politicians cautious to say anything that might offend. All the other candidates lean toward more peaceful solutions to these issues- solution that come across to authoritarians as weak and ineffective. Moreover, his general attitude - the way he interacts with reporters, with other candidates - paints him as the "tough guy" candidate, which appeals to authoritarians as well. He flaunted all the niceties of political discourse on a regular basis before it was cool.

But that's insufficient to explain Trump's rise. Authoritarians have always existed in US - and world - politics, but this goes beyond a standard showcasing of masculinity. People are afraid. They are afraid of the changes they see happening all around them. They seek what is fundamentally impossible to achieve - to freeze time, forever, in the immediate post-Soviet years. To preserve their perception of white culture and social morality.

Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that Trump is an authoritarian. I agree with Skep that the left's attempt compare Trump to Hitler is unworthy of our attention. The reason to oppose Trump is not because he's "like Hitler". The reason to oppose him is because he's belligerent and vacuous, too arrogant to function, and utterly incompetent.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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3/2/2016 7:00:04 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 6:50:02 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 5:52:22 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:31:16 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
A truly powerful and intriguing article. It's long, I grant, but well worth the read. Many of our own Trump supporters - and detractors - should have interesting things to say about it.

Essentially, the article argues that fear - fear of a crumbling social order and social institutions, fear of terrorism and foreign threats, the white working class' fear of losing not only the general privileged position of whites but also their majority status - combined with economic malaise (despite the fact that the economy has improved, the white working class has not felt this improvement) has awakened or triggered a sense of latent authoritarianism. This has split the GOP, and will continue splitting the GOP even if Trump loses, into establishment and authoritarian sects.

http://www.vox.com...

Lol Vox.... I love the pearl-clutching, as if Trump will be seig-heiling his way into the White House over the desecrated corpses of Mexicans and Muslims.

The social research is for the most part sound, but the spin is ludicrous, and is part of the deliberate 'Trump is crypto-Hitler' narrative on the left (summed up beautifully by a cringe-worthingly lame 'drumpf' moniker. I thought that we as a nation couldn't top 'Obummer' as a stupid nickname, but I underestimated the great American people).

The spin is incredibly noticeable, but I'm less interested in that and more interested in this new fracture in the Republican Party. When I talked about anticipating the GOP's reformation, I was not anticipating it to get even worse with a frightened nationalist group demanding the preservation of culture.

I think that the cultural aspect is a bit overblown. The gay marriage one, for instance. Even the most strongly authoritarian sample is only 51% negative on gay marriage. The issue is a dying one, and the 'defection' of several gay voices to the 'Trump wing' of the GOP, plus demographic creep, will hasten its demise. The Islamophobia element is also naturally allied with gays. The funny thing about this sort of mass psychological reaction is that it's very unifying (unless you're the group being perceived as a threat.)

Trump is well aware of the existence of authoritarians, and is playing them like a fiddle as a significant part of his constituency. While his rhetoric, and some vague red-meat talking points, may appeal to them, his actual positions are pretty far from what they would want. (Economic pressure on North Korea instead of war, no stance on gay marriage, cordial relations with Russia, etc. etc.). Trump isn't an idiot. He knows that he needs to pivot center in order to defeat Hillary, and he's set things up so that he can maintain a few defensible authoritarian positions (The Wall, Muslim immigration, etc.) while actually flanking Hillary on things like foreign policy.

The wall is "defensible."

The significance here is the long-reaching implications of this. America hasn't really had a significant authoritarian party.

Yeah, it'll be interesting to watch. I actually think that they'll be better than the old GOP, because they'll actually act as an outlet for the disaffected. Before, that segment of the population was stifled in both parties. We're also seeing a huge reversal as far as the perception of the parties goes: the Democrats are going to be seen as the uptight, establishment, controlled-by-money party if this coup succeeds. Personally I look forward to that; the Democrats are absolutely loathsome. The reaction by their establishment is basically an aghast 'who let the peasants into our democracy!?'
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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3/2/2016 7:02:28 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 6:50:46 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/2/2016 6:32:04 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
It's not difficult to see why authoritarians would favor Trump. He takes very hardline stances against illegal immigrants, against Muslims, and against China in a world full of politicians cautious to say anything that might offend. All the other candidates lean toward more peaceful solutions to these issues- solution that come across to authoritarians as weak and ineffective. Moreover, his general attitude - the way he interacts with reporters, with other candidates - paints him as the "tough guy" candidate, which appeals to authoritarians as well. He flaunted all the niceties of political discourse on a regular basis before it was cool. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that Trump is an authoritarian. I agree with Skep that the left's attempt compare Trump to Hitler is unworthy of our attention. The reason to oppose Trump is not because he's "like Hitler". The reason to oppose him is because he's belligerent and vacuous, too arrogant to function, and utterly incompetent.

It would be profoundly stupid to dismiss such historical comparisons out of hand. Retrospection has a way of clarifying developments in a way that isn't accessible while they're in progress. And I refuse to believe that there's anything fundamentally different about the character and psychology of the average person that he would not fall prey to the same sort of manipulation that furnished the rise of hitler.

The best liars are not easily identifiable as such, and neither are the best demagogues.

It's profoundly stupid to make inane, skin-deep comparisons between two completely incomparable historical situations in order to score cheap political points.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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3/2/2016 7:07:45 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 7:00:04 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/2/2016 6:50:02 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 5:52:22 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/2/2016 2:31:16 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
A truly powerful and intriguing article. It's long, I grant, but well worth the read. Many of our own Trump supporters - and detractors - should have interesting things to say about it.

Essentially, the article argues that fear - fear of a crumbling social order and social institutions, fear of terrorism and foreign threats, the white working class' fear of losing not only the general privileged position of whites but also their majority status - combined with economic malaise (despite the fact that the economy has improved, the white working class has not felt this improvement) has awakened or triggered a sense of latent authoritarianism. This has split the GOP, and will continue splitting the GOP even if Trump loses, into establishment and authoritarian sects.

http://www.vox.com...

Lol Vox.... I love the pearl-clutching, as if Trump will be seig-heiling his way into the White House over the desecrated corpses of Mexicans and Muslims.

The social research is for the most part sound, but the spin is ludicrous, and is part of the deliberate 'Trump is crypto-Hitler' narrative on the left (summed up beautifully by a cringe-worthingly lame 'drumpf' moniker. I thought that we as a nation couldn't top 'Obummer' as a stupid nickname, but I underestimated the great American people).

The spin is incredibly noticeable, but I'm less interested in that and more interested in this new fracture in the Republican Party. When I talked about anticipating the GOP's reformation, I was not anticipating it to get even worse with a frightened nationalist group demanding the preservation of culture.

I think that the cultural aspect is a bit overblown. The gay marriage one, for instance. Even the most strongly authoritarian sample is only 51% negative on gay marriage. The issue is a dying one, and the 'defection' of several gay voices to the 'Trump wing' of the GOP, plus demographic creep, will hasten its demise. The Islamophobia element is also naturally allied with gays. The funny thing about this sort of mass psychological reaction is that it's very unifying (unless you're the group being perceived as a threat.)

I think the "them and us" mentality is one of the worst things about humans in general. The Islamophobia element I expect to see for a long time. People are frightened of ISIS and the mess (for which America is largely responsible) in the Middle East. The mass immigration of many Muslims to Europe has had some negative repercussions there, further reinforcing peoples' fears.

Trump is well aware of the existence of authoritarians, and is playing them like a fiddle as a significant part of his constituency. While his rhetoric, and some vague red-meat talking points, may appeal to them, his actual positions are pretty far from what they would want. (Economic pressure on North Korea instead of war, no stance on gay marriage, cordial relations with Russia, etc. etc.). Trump isn't an idiot. He knows that he needs to pivot center in order to defeat Hillary, and he's set things up so that he can maintain a few defensible authoritarian positions (The Wall, Muslim immigration, etc.) while actually flanking Hillary on things like foreign policy.

The wall is "defensible."

The significance here is the long-reaching implications of this. America hasn't really had a significant authoritarian party.

Yeah, it'll be interesting to watch. I actually think that they'll be better than the old GOP, because they'll actually act as an outlet for the disaffected. Before, that segment of the population was stifled in both parties. We're also seeing a huge reversal as far as the perception of the parties goes: the Democrats are going to be seen as the uptight, establishment, controlled-by-money party if this coup succeeds. Personally I look forward to that; the Democrats are absolutely loathsome. The reaction by their establishment is basically an aghast 'who let the peasants into our democracy!?'

I think that's a more academia-centered issue, but that does comprise a significant portion of the Democratic Party. Elitism has gotten to be a major issue within their ranks (their distaste for those "peasants" is why voters like Thett refuse to support them). It's funny, since Sanders' populist surge demonstrates an attempted revolt against that established, monied system, but it's not likely to have the power to overcome it. What do you suppose will happen to the Democrats?
Greyparrot
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3/2/2016 7:20:04 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 7:07:45 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:

I think that's a more academia-centered issue, but that does comprise a significant portion of the Democratic Party. Elitism has gotten to be a major issue within their ranks (their distaste for those "peasants" is why voters like Thett refuse to support them). It's funny, since Sanders' populist surge demonstrates an attempted revolt against that established, monied system, but it's not likely to have the power to overcome it. What do you suppose will happen to the Democrats?

Bernie 2.0 will emerge of course. A tired old liberal entrepreneur, ready to retire from business, and run the country.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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3/2/2016 7:20:32 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 7:07:45 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 7:00:04 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

I think that the cultural aspect is a bit overblown. The gay marriage one, for instance. Even the most strongly authoritarian sample is only 51% negative on gay marriage. The issue is a dying one, and the 'defection' of several gay voices to the 'Trump wing' of the GOP, plus demographic creep, will hasten its demise. The Islamophobia element is also naturally allied with gays. The funny thing about this sort of mass psychological reaction is that it's very unifying (unless you're the group being perceived as a threat.)

I think the "them and us" mentality is one of the worst things about humans in general. The Islamophobia element I expect to see for a long time. People are frightened of ISIS and the mess (for which America is largely responsible) in the Middle East. The mass immigration of many Muslims to Europe has had some negative repercussions there, further reinforcing peoples' fears.

I think that a lot of this is a violent backlash against a misguided attempt to smother that instinct. Don is 'teflon' because the people who police speech and opinion are seen as boys who cried wolf. The animosity exists because social justice campaigners have insisted that we've outgrown that sort of herd-think, and have proceeded to systematically strip people of targets for 'othering' under the assumption that we'd reach perfect equality. The reality, however, is that the particular violent, irrational expulsion of one smaller minority took place and was rationalized. For the social justice activists, this was the conservative individual, who they saw as unreasonable bigots and who they otherized. For everyone else, it was Muslims, who share a lot of the same characteristics which the targeting of the right was justified by.

It's all one big sad, operatic attempt to deny human nature.

Yeah, it'll be interesting to watch. I actually think that they'll be better than the old GOP, because they'll actually act as an outlet for the disaffected. Before, that segment of the population was stifled in both parties. We're also seeing a huge reversal as far as the perception of the parties goes: the Democrats are going to be seen as the uptight, establishment, controlled-by-money party if this coup succeeds. Personally I look forward to that; the Democrats are absolutely loathsome. The reaction by their establishment is basically an aghast 'who let the peasants into our democracy!?'

I think that's a more academia-centered issue, but that does comprise a significant portion of the Democratic Party. Elitism has gotten to be a major issue within their ranks (their distaste for those "peasants" is why voters like Thett refuse to support them). It's funny, since Sanders' populist surge demonstrates an attempted revolt against that established, monied system, but it's not likely to have the power to overcome it. What do you suppose will happen to the Democrats?

Yeah, watching Sanders bite the dust was when it really sunk in for me. I thought that the Dems were elitist, but damn that revolt was put down hard. I think that if the establishment clings on they'll become equivalent to the Republican party of the Bush eras: clinging to a model that doesn't work out of institutional inertia. They'll become a laughingstock. In some ways, they already have. Either that or they'll undergo a populist reform of their own. I don't think it's likely, though.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
dylancatlow
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3/2/2016 7:56:41 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 6:55:12 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 3/2/2016 6:32:04 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
It's not difficult to see why authoritarians would favor Trump. He takes very hardline stances against illegal immigrants, against Muslims, and against China in a world full of politicians cautious to say anything that might offend. All the other candidates lean toward more peaceful solutions to these issues- solution that come across to authoritarians as weak and ineffective. Moreover, his general attitude - the way he interacts with reporters, with other candidates - paints him as the "tough guy" candidate, which appeals to authoritarians as well. He flaunted all the niceties of political discourse on a regular basis before it was cool.

But that's insufficient to explain Trump's rise. Authoritarians have always existed in US - and world - politics, but this goes beyond a standard showcasing of masculinity. People are afraid. They are afraid of the changes they see happening all around them. They seek what is fundamentally impossible to achieve - to freeze time, forever, in the immediate post-Soviet years. To preserve their perception of white culture and social morality.

Scared and frustrated, sure. But my post wasn't about trying to explain Trump's rise. For one thing, I don't think Trump is actually doing that well in terms of sheer support. He's only managed to win around 35 percent of the vote across all the primaries so far - hardly a miracle that demands some elaborate theory. You're right that authoritarians have been here all along. So why are they only now are they getting a candidate who will fight for their beliefs in their style of choice? I think it's partly due to chance - that it, due to Trump's personal decision to run. You see, Trump is in the unique position of not having to rely on donors. Whereas mainstream Republican candidates have to appear polite and gain approval from party elites before acting, Trump can do whatever he wants because he's self-funded and has access to virtually all the free media attention he wants. That allows him to act in ways that appeals to a neglected subset of the electorate: the people who are tired of all this "nice crap," and want someone to aggressively fight for big changes.
dylancatlow
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3/2/2016 8:02:37 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 6:50:46 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/2/2016 6:32:04 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
It's not difficult to see why authoritarians would favor Trump. He takes very hardline stances against illegal immigrants, against Muslims, and against China in a world full of politicians cautious to say anything that might offend. All the other candidates lean toward more peaceful solutions to these issues- solution that come across to authoritarians as weak and ineffective. Moreover, his general attitude - the way he interacts with reporters, with other candidates - paints him as the "tough guy" candidate, which appeals to authoritarians as well. He flaunted all the niceties of political discourse on a regular basis before it was cool. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that Trump is an authoritarian. I agree with Skep that the left's attempt compare Trump to Hitler is unworthy of our attention. The reason to oppose Trump is not because he's "like Hitler". The reason to oppose him is because he's belligerent and vacuous, too arrogant to function, and utterly incompetent.

It would be profoundly stupid to dismiss such historical comparisons out of hand. Retrospection has a way of clarifying developments in a way that isn't accessible while they're in progress. And I refuse to believe that there's anything fundamentally different about the character and psychology of the average person that he would not fall prey to the same sort of manipulation that furnished the rise of hitler.

The best liars are not easily identifiable as such, and neither are the best demagogues.

Wasn't it only a few days ago that you scoffed at the idea of Trump being a racist because "he doesn't have enough conviction". And yet somehow, he's comparable to man who had enough conviction to set out to make the world perfect.
Skepsikyma
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3/2/2016 8:05:38 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 7:20:04 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/2/2016 7:07:45 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:

I think that's a more academia-centered issue, but that does comprise a significant portion of the Democratic Party. Elitism has gotten to be a major issue within their ranks (their distaste for those "peasants" is why voters like Thett refuse to support them). It's funny, since Sanders' populist surge demonstrates an attempted revolt against that established, monied system, but it's not likely to have the power to overcome it. What do you suppose will happen to the Democrats?

Bernie 2.0 will emerge of course. A tired old liberal entrepreneur, ready to retire from business, and run the country.

For his second term, Trump will run in the Democratic primaries and win the nomination.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
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3/2/2016 8:06:54 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 7:15:42 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
If Trump is winning, no matter how incompetent you may think he is, he is better than the other candidates, and the voters.

I love the prevalent assumption that a man who navigated a presidential primary with astounding success and made billions of dollars in the business world is an incompetent, bumbling buffoon.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Wylted
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3/2/2016 8:13:02 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 2:31:16 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
A truly powerful and intriguing article. It's long, I grant, but well worth the read. Many of our own Trump supporters - and detractors - should have interesting things to say about it.

Essentially, the article argues that fear - fear of a crumbling social order and social institutions, fear of terrorism and foreign threats, the white working class' fear of losing not only the general privileged position of whites but also their majority status - combined with economic malaise (despite the fact that the economy has improved, the white working class has not felt this improvement) has awakened or triggered a sense of latent authoritarianism. This has split the GOP, and will continue splitting the GOP even if Trump loses, into establishment and authoritarian sects.

http://www.vox.com...

You support authoritarianism right?
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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3/2/2016 8:15:30 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 6:40:15 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
And I can't help but think that many of Trump's supporter are behind him simply because they think he would be an entertaining disaster and that "out of the ashes" something better would arise.

How else would you get the complete overhaul on that evil and seemingly unstoppable beast, known as the government.
dylancatlow
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3/2/2016 8:18:43 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 8:06:54 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/2/2016 7:15:42 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
If Trump is winning, no matter how incompetent you may think he is, he is better than the other candidates, and the voters.

I love the prevalent assumption that a man who navigated a presidential primary with astounding success and made billions of dollars in the business world is an incompetent, bumbling buffoon.

" despite the obvious abundance of wealthy mediocrities, it is easy to observe a widespread tendency to equate intellectual and financial assets. Sadly, that may be the only way that some people can put any value at all on intelligence. This shameful illusion is fostered by the all too frequent translation of money into social and political power, and by the absurd confidence of many successful businessmen in their dubious abilities to solve whatever problems they might later encounter as public servants."

<3
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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3/2/2016 8:19:31 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 7:20:04 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/2/2016 7:07:45 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:

I think that's a more academia-centered issue, but that does comprise a significant portion of the Democratic Party. Elitism has gotten to be a major issue within their ranks (their distaste for those "peasants" is why voters like Thett refuse to support them). It's funny, since Sanders' populist surge demonstrates an attempted revolt against that established, monied system, but it's not likely to have the power to overcome it. What do you suppose will happen to the Democrats?

Bernie 2.0 will emerge of course. A tired old liberal entrepreneur, ready to retire from business, and run the country.

Good luck finding a billionaire with his mentality. Maybe a Fabian socialist, but nobody like him.