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What's wrong with US & how will Trump fix it?

F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/2/2016 11:21:55 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
I hear time and again people complaining about the big bad "establishment" and how they are screwing everyone over and how Trump is the white knight in shining armor ready to give those people a kick in the butt and advocate for the interests of the common man. Its a vague argument. I'd love to hear someone talk about specifics.

Who are these "elites?" What are they doing to you? How are they hurting you? From what I see, the United States government like any democratic republic has checks and balances in place, has an executive branch, a legislature to make laws and the courts. The people elected have some amount of power and influence as is to be expected. Then they do their jobs - some are competent. Some are incompetent.

The United States is currently a world superpower. We have the most powerful military, nuclear weapons, a seat on the UN security council and have powerful and influential allies. What's "wrong" with it in your mind to the extent that some are suggesting that we are on the brink of total disaster?

We've had unemployment problems but it's no worse than in most of the world. We've had a recession but things are picking up again. We're an economically developed country with a high standard of living.

So, who are these tyrants screwing you over to the point that you hate them and think that a Trump presidency is going to fix everything? What is this "establishment" that you speak of that you hate with the core of your heart? What are these "interests" of yours that you speak of that the "establishment" doesn't give a damn about but if Trump is elected, he will?

What's wrong with Rubio and Cruz as candidates? They're not great but they are politicians like any other doing their jobs. Where's all this passion against the "establishment" coming from? To put it blunty, what exactly is your problem and what are you so mad about?
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/2/2016 11:48:17 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Adding onto that, most conservatives talk about themselves as free-market capitalists but building a wall actually impedes the free market. Mexico provides cheap labor which the United States will find difficult to compete against. But if all Mexicans who cross the border can legally work, this will create a situation where companies will hire people who best fit the job for the least amount of pay - the free market at work. This will improve the economies of both the United States and Mexico.

The wall is a contrived construct meant to create artificial labor scarcity in the US and I don't understand how anyone who is passionate about the free market can also support building a wall.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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3/2/2016 11:57:20 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 11:21:55 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I hear time and again people complaining about the big bad "establishment" and how they are screwing everyone over and how Trump is the white knight in shining armor ready to give those people a kick in the butt and advocate for the interests of the common man. Its a vague argument. I'd love to hear someone talk about specifics.

To sum it up, they support corporate interests over American interests. They raise the H1-B visa cap even though there is no skilled labor shortage. They fail to address illegal immigration of secure borders. They allow poor people (especially poor black people) to be imprisoned en masse and then wipe the crocodile tears from their eyes whenever a black kid is killed in a confrontation with police. They pass policies which ensure that the fruits of the recovery from the recession flow to the coffers of the richest members of this country while the middle and lower classes, who were devastated by the recession, have seen their financial prospects stagnate. We're on top of the world geopolitically, but the fruits of that dominance benefit multinational corporations who couldn't less of a fvck about this country, especially the poor people in this country. It's the fact that people have been hearing the same slogans for decades, but have only seen a downward slide as they elected bought suit after bought suit. It's the fact that the establishment's response to concerns over standard of living, wage, and unemployment concerns has been to double-down on freemarket essentialism (which pretty much no one gives a fvck about) while promising to pander more to illegal immigrants.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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3/3/2016 12:01:04 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 11:48:17 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Adding onto that, most conservatives talk about themselves as free-market capitalists but building a wall actually impedes the free market. Mexico provides cheap labor which the United States will find difficult to compete against. But if all Mexicans who cross the border can legally work, this will create a situation where companies will hire people who best fit the job for the least amount of pay - the free market at work.

This will improve the economies of both the United States and Mexico.

No it won't. It benefits the upper classes in the US and the immigrants.

The wall is a contrived construct meant to create artificial labor scarcity in the US and I don't understand how anyone who is passionate about the free market can also support building a wall.

Do you really think that conservatives are overwhelmingly passionate about pure free market principles?
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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3/3/2016 12:04:52 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 11:57:20 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/2/2016 11:21:55 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I hear time and again people complaining about the big bad "establishment" and how they are screwing everyone over and how Trump is the white knight in shining armor ready to give those people a kick in the butt and advocate for the interests of the common man. Its a vague argument. I'd love to hear someone talk about specifics.

To sum it up, they support corporate interests over American interests. They raise the H1-B visa cap even though there is no skilled labor shortage. They fail to address illegal immigration of secure borders. They allow poor people (especially poor black people) to be imprisoned en masse and then wipe the crocodile tears from their eyes whenever a black kid is killed in a confrontation with police. They pass policies which ensure that the fruits of the recovery from the recession flow to the coffers of the richest members of this country while the middle and lower classes, who were devastated by the recession, have seen their financial prospects stagnate. We're on top of the world geopolitically, but the fruits of that dominance benefit multinational corporations who couldn't less of a fvck about this country, especially the poor people in this country. It's the fact that people have been hearing the same slogans for decades, but have only seen a downward slide as they elected bought suit after bought suit. It's the fact that the establishment's response to concerns over standard of living, wage, and unemployment concerns has been to double-down on freemarket essentialism (which pretty much no one gives a fvck about) while promising to pander more to illegal immigrants.

Right. I agree with most of this, but that's not what Trump stands for. That's what democrats try to do: increase taxes on the richest members of society. Create social programs like Medicare to help people down on their luck and senior citizens. Make insurance companies accept people with pre-existing conditions so we don't leave people dying on the street. These are all things that Obama and the democrats have been trying to achieve for a while now.

Trump is a republican. He is "corporate america," that 1% multi-billionaire who owns several houses and private jets. Republicans in general also support lower taxes for the mega-rich, want to demolish Obamacare, lower social welfare programs that benefit poor people, etc.

Republicans advocate for the richest members of society and democrats for the poorest. You are bringing up stuff that the democratic party strives to do and attributing it to... Trump? I don't get it.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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3/3/2016 12:25:15 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/3/2016 12:04:52 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/2/2016 11:57:20 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/2/2016 11:21:55 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I hear time and again people complaining about the big bad "establishment" and how they are screwing everyone over and how Trump is the white knight in shining armor ready to give those people a kick in the butt and advocate for the interests of the common man. Its a vague argument. I'd love to hear someone talk about specifics.

To sum it up, they support corporate interests over American interests. They raise the H1-B visa cap even though there is no skilled labor shortage. They fail to address illegal immigration of secure borders. They allow poor people (especially poor black people) to be imprisoned en masse and then wipe the crocodile tears from their eyes whenever a black kid is killed in a confrontation with police. They pass policies which ensure that the fruits of the recovery from the recession flow to the coffers of the richest members of this country while the middle and lower classes, who were devastated by the recession, have seen their financial prospects stagnate. We're on top of the world geopolitically, but the fruits of that dominance benefit multinational corporations who couldn't less of a fvck about this country, especially the poor people in this country. It's the fact that people have been hearing the same slogans for decades, but have only seen a downward slide as they elected bought suit after bought suit. It's the fact that the establishment's response to concerns over standard of living, wage, and unemployment concerns has been to double-down on freemarket essentialism (which pretty much no one gives a fvck about) while promising to pander more to illegal immigrants.

Right. I agree with most of this, but that's not what Trump stands for. That's what democrats try to do: increase taxes on the richest members of society. Create social programs like Medicare to help people down on their luck and senior citizens. Make insurance companies accept people with pre-existing conditions so we don't leave people dying on the street. These are all things that Obama and the democrats have been trying to achieve for a while now.

Lol. That's why he achieved all of that when he had a democratic legislature for two years. If democrats wanted to fix this, it would be fixed. Democrats do the same things that Republicans do, they just throw a few crumbs under the table while they do it.

Trump is a republican. He is "corporate america," that 1% multi-billionaire who owns several houses and private jets. Republicans in general also support lower taxes for the mega-rich, want to demolish Obamacare, lower social welfare programs that benefit poor people, etc.

Trump is a moderate, and has been a democrat for most of his life. His holdings are in real-estate, and service-based, so he's actually loyal to this country by necessity: his interests are intertwined with it. Manufacturing can outsource, a hotel or golf course cannot.

Obamacare isn't all that swell for poor people. Many saw their premiums rise, and it's incredibly unpopular (it hit 36% in 2015, I think, and compares with Prohibition in popularity). Obamacare has never enjoyed popular support, and what support it has enjoyed has been steadily shrinking. Trump's tax plan will probably include a large hike on capital gains, as that would effect very little of his own earnings. Trump has also been one of the only people on the stage to support social welfare when it comes to healthcare. He obviously didn't come out and say it during the Republican primary, but he's clearly to the left of everyone up there.
https://youtu.be...

Republicans advocate for the richest members of society and democrats for the poorest. You are bringing up stuff that the democratic party strives to do and attributing it to... Trump? I don't get it.

Both parties advocate for the rich. The Republicans are brazen about it, and the Democrats throw a few crumbs to the poor to keep them loyal. Trump is intensely hated by both establishments because he will take that advantage away from the Democrats and force them to actually help poor people instead of paying lip service and giving token support to ensure votes.

I really don't understand why you think that Trump running as a Republican transforms him into a cookie-cutter Republican.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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3/3/2016 3:43:25 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/3/2016 12:25:15 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

Lol. That's why he achieved all of that when he had a democratic legislature for two years. If democrats wanted to fix this, it would be fixed. Democrats do the same things that Republicans do, they just throw a few crumbs under the table while they do it.

That's the point though - he only had a democratic legislature for two years. For the vast majority of his time in office, he had to compromise and negotiate with filibustering republicans who opposed him every step of the way.

Trump is a moderate, and has been a democrat for most of his life. His holdings are in real-estate, and service-based, so he's actually loyal to this country by necessity: his interests are intertwined with it. Manufacturing can outsource, a hotel or golf course cannot.

I don't buy that Trump was a democrat. Trump has always espoused core republican values like racism, sexism, homophobia, bigotry, and a disdain for "political correctness." Watch the apprentice season six and even then he was complaining about political correctness and he wanted the contestants to make assumptions about the english-speaking ability of people just because they were Hispanic.

Both parties advocate for the rich. The Republicans are brazen about it, and the Democrats throw a few crumbs to the poor to keep them loyal. Trump is intensely hated by both establishments because he will take that advantage away from the Democrats and force them to actually help poor people instead of paying lip service and giving token support to ensure votes.

You are just making a bare statement that democrats advocate for the rich. That isn't true and in fact the fundamental line drawn between democrats and republicans is that republicans are pro-big business and freedom for big companies to do whatever they want. Democrats are defined by their advocacy to limit big businesses, impose additional rules on them (that republicans absolutely hate), tax the rich, and so on. Even republicans admit this. "Socialism" was a common fear buzzword that republicans have thrown at democrats and especially Obama for over a decade.

I really don't understand why you think that Trump running as a Republican transforms him into a cookie-cutter Republican.

Trump is ultra-republican. His stances are significantly to the right of the average republican. He espouses Republican values and magnifies them.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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3/3/2016 4:51:35 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 11:48:17 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Adding onto that, most conservatives talk about themselves as free-market capitalists but building a wall actually impedes the free market. Mexico provides cheap labor which the United States will find difficult to compete against. But if all Mexicans who cross the border can legally work, this will create a situation where companies will hire people who best fit the job for the least amount of pay - the free market at work. This will improve the economies of both the United States and Mexico.

The wall is a contrived construct meant to create artificial labor scarcity in the US and I don't understand how anyone who is passionate about the free market can also support building a wall.

I oppose most immigration restrictions for this reason.
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Raisor
Posts: 4,461
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3/3/2016 5:03:59 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/2/2016 11:21:55 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I hear time and again people complaining about the big bad "establishment" and how they are screwing everyone over and how Trump is the white knight in shining armor ready to give those people a kick in the butt and advocate for the interests of the common man. Its a vague argument. I'd love to hear someone talk about specifics.

Who are these "elites?" What are they doing to you? How are they hurting you? From what I see, the United States government like any democratic republic has checks and balances in place, has an executive branch, a legislature to make laws and the courts. The people elected have some amount of power and influence as is to be expected. Then they do their jobs - some are competent. Some are incompetent.

The United States is currently a world superpower. We have the most powerful military, nuclear weapons, a seat on the UN security council and have powerful and influential allies. What's "wrong" with it in your mind to the extent that some are suggesting that we are on the brink of total disaster?

We've had unemployment problems but it's no worse than in most of the world. We've had a recession but things are picking up again. We're an economically developed country with a high standard of living.

So, who are these tyrants screwing you over to the point that you hate them and think that a Trump presidency is going to fix everything? What is this "establishment" that you speak of that you hate with the core of your heart? What are these "interests" of yours that you speak of that the "establishment" doesn't give a damn about but if Trump is elected, he will?

What's wrong with Rubio and Cruz as candidates? They're not great but they are politicians like any other doing their jobs. Where's all this passion against the "establishment" coming from? To put it blunty, what exactly is your problem and what are you so mad about?

What's wrong with the america - it isn't great anymore
What trump is going to do to fix it - he's going to make it great again

It isn't that hard to understand
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,849
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3/3/2016 5:13:02 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/3/2016 5:03:59 AM, Raisor wrote:
At 3/2/2016 11:21:55 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I hear time and again people complaining about the big bad "establishment" and how they are screwing everyone over and how Trump is the white knight in shining armor ready to give those people a kick in the butt and advocate for the interests of the common man. Its a vague argument. I'd love to hear someone talk about specifics.

Who are these "elites?" What are they doing to you? How are they hurting you? From what I see, the United States government like any democratic republic has checks and balances in place, has an executive branch, a legislature to make laws and the courts. The people elected have some amount of power and influence as is to be expected. Then they do their jobs - some are competent. Some are incompetent.

The United States is currently a world superpower. We have the most powerful military, nuclear weapons, a seat on the UN security council and have powerful and influential allies. What's "wrong" with it in your mind to the extent that some are suggesting that we are on the brink of total disaster?

We've had unemployment problems but it's no worse than in most of the world. We've had a recession but things are picking up again. We're an economically developed country with a high standard of living.

So, who are these tyrants screwing you over to the point that you hate them and think that a Trump presidency is going to fix everything? What is this "establishment" that you speak of that you hate with the core of your heart? What are these "interests" of yours that you speak of that the "establishment" doesn't give a damn about but if Trump is elected, he will?

What's wrong with Rubio and Cruz as candidates? They're not great but they are politicians like any other doing their jobs. Where's all this passion against the "establishment" coming from? To put it blunty, what exactly is your problem and what are you so mad about?

What's wrong with the america - it isn't great anymore
What trump is going to do to fix it - he's going to make it great again

It isn't that hard to understand

This guy gets it.
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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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3/3/2016 5:04:50 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/3/2016 3:43:25 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/3/2016 12:25:15 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

Lol. That's why he achieved all of that when he had a democratic legislature for two years. If democrats wanted to fix this, it would be fixed. Democrats do the same things that Republicans do, they just throw a few crumbs under the table while they do it.

That's the point though - he only had a democratic legislature for two years. For the vast majority of his time in office, he had to compromise and negotiate with filibustering republicans who opposed him every step of the way.

On Obamacare. Which was the only thing he focused one. Which, as far as I've seen, is most heavily supported by people who make over 200k a year.

Trump is a moderate, and has been a democrat for most of his life. His holdings are in real-estate, and service-based, so he's actually loyal to this country by necessity: his interests are intertwined with it. Manufacturing can outsource, a hotel or golf course cannot.

I don't buy that Trump was a democrat. Trump has always espoused core republican values like racism, sexism, homophobia, bigotry, and a disdain for "political correctness." Watch the apprentice season six and even then he was complaining about political correctness and he wanted the contestants to make assumptions about the english-speaking ability of people just because they were Hispanic.

So you think that the democratic platform is synonymous with 'political correctness'? Lol, that just verifies the ugliest stereotypes of Democrats that the opposition draws on. He's an @sshole. That doesn't automatically make him a Republican.

Both parties advocate for the rich. The Republicans are brazen about it, and the Democrats throw a few crumbs to the poor to keep them loyal. Trump is intensely hated by both establishments because he will take that advantage away from the Democrats and force them to actually help poor people instead of paying lip service and giving token support to ensure votes.

You are just making a bare statement that democrats advocate for the rich. That isn't true and in fact the fundamental line drawn between democrats and republicans is that republicans are pro-big business and freedom for big companies to do whatever they want. Democrats are defined by their advocacy to limit big businesses, impose additional rules on them (that republicans absolutely hate), tax the rich, and so on. Even republicans admit this. "Socialism" was a common fear buzzword that republicans have thrown at democrats and especially Obama for over a decade.

I'm sure the Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, Citigroup, Morgan Stanley, and JPMorgan Chase contributed a combined total of 3.6 billion dollars to Hillary's previous campaigns because they thought that she was such a sweet lady with nice hair.

I really don't understand why you think that Trump running as a Republican transforms him into a cookie-cutter Republican.

Trump is ultra-republican. His stances are significantly to the right of the average republican. He espouses Republican values and magnifies them.

Love the complete dearth of examples here...
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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3/3/2016 5:30:55 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/3/2016 3:43:25 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

Trump is ultra-republican. His stances are significantly to the right of the average republican. He espouses Republican values and magnifies them.

He's to the right of the average Republican on some issues, but not on others. For instance, he's pretty moderate when it comes to abortion, gay marriage, national healthcare, etc. Cruz is the ultra-republican, not Trump.
xus00HAY
Posts: 1,394
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3/3/2016 5:41:29 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
We have seen Trump on TV saying "you're" fired". Many people see that and think he is the kind of guy we need for the chief executive of our country.
Saying you want Trump is a way of telling the incompetent people working for us that we think they should be fired, and whoever replaces them has gotta do a better job.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/3/2016 5:48:47 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/3/2016 12:25:15 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/3/2016 12:04:52 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/2/2016 11:57:20 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/2/2016 11:21:55 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I hear time and again people complaining about the big bad "establishment" and how they are screwing everyone over and how Trump is the white knight in shining armor ready to give those people a kick in the butt and advocate for the interests of the common man. Its a vague argument. I'd love to hear someone talk about specifics.

To sum it up, they support corporate interests over American interests. They raise the H1-B visa cap even though there is no skilled labor shortage. They fail to address illegal immigration of secure borders. They allow poor people (especially poor black people) to be imprisoned en masse and then wipe the crocodile tears from their eyes whenever a black kid is killed in a confrontation with police. They pass policies which ensure that the fruits of the recovery from the recession flow to the coffers of the richest members of this country while the middle and lower classes, who were devastated by the recession, have seen their financial prospects stagnate. We're on top of the world geopolitically, but the fruits of that dominance benefit multinational corporations who couldn't less of a fvck about this country, especially the poor people in this country. It's the fact that people have been hearing the same slogans for decades, but have only seen a downward slide as they elected bought suit after bought suit. It's the fact that the establishment's response to concerns over standard of living, wage, and unemployment concerns has been to double-down on freemarket essentialism (which pretty much no one gives a fvck about) while promising to pander more to illegal immigrants.

Right. I agree with most of this, but that's not what Trump stands for. That's what democrats try to do: increase taxes on the richest members of society. Create social programs like Medicare to help people down on their luck and senior citizens. Make insurance companies accept people with pre-existing conditions so we don't leave people dying on the street. These are all things that Obama and the democrats have been trying to achieve for a while now.

Lol. That's why he achieved all of that when he had a democratic legislature for two years. If democrats wanted to fix this, it would be fixed. Democrats do the same things that Republicans do, they just throw a few crumbs under the table while they do it.


What a crap answer. The party's are NOT the same. Want to know why more is not getting done, go ask the obstructionist GOP.

Trump is a republican. He is "corporate america," that 1% multi-billionaire who owns several houses and private jets. Republicans in general also support lower taxes for the mega-rich, want to demolish Obamacare, lower social welfare programs that benefit poor people, etc.

Trump is a moderate, and has been a democrat for most of his life. His holdings are in real-estate, and service-based, so he's actually loyal to this country by necessity: his interests are intertwined with it. Manufacturing can outsource, a hotel or golf course cannot.

Obamacare isn't all that swell for poor people. Many saw their premiums rise, and it's incredibly unpopular (it hit 36% in 2015, I think, and compares with Prohibition in popularity). Obamacare has never enjoyed popular support, and what support it has enjoyed has been steadily shrinking. Trump's tax plan will probably include a large hike on capital gains, as that would effect very little of his own earnings. Trump has also been one of the only people on the stage to support social welfare when it comes to healthcare. He obviously didn't come out and say it during the Republican primary, but he's clearly to the left of everyone up there.
https://youtu.be...

Republicans advocate for the richest members of society and democrats for the poorest. You are bringing up stuff that the democratic party strives to do and attributing it to... Trump? I don't get it.

Both parties advocate for the rich. The Republicans are brazen about it, and the Democrats throw a few crumbs to the poor to keep them loyal. Trump is intensely hated by both establishments because he will take that advantage away from the Democrats and force them to actually help poor people instead of paying lip service and giving token support to ensure votes.

I really don't understand why you think that Trump running as a Republican transforms him into a cookie-cutter Republican.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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3/3/2016 7:44:31 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/3/2016 5:48:47 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/3/2016 12:25:15 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/3/2016 12:04:52 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/2/2016 11:57:20 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/2/2016 11:21:55 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I hear time and again people complaining about the big bad "establishment" and how they are screwing everyone over and how Trump is the white knight in shining armor ready to give those people a kick in the butt and advocate for the interests of the common man. Its a vague argument. I'd love to hear someone talk about specifics.

To sum it up, they support corporate interests over American interests. They raise the H1-B visa cap even though there is no skilled labor shortage. They fail to address illegal immigration of secure borders. They allow poor people (especially poor black people) to be imprisoned en masse and then wipe the crocodile tears from their eyes whenever a black kid is killed in a confrontation with police. They pass policies which ensure that the fruits of the recovery from the recession flow to the coffers of the richest members of this country while the middle and lower classes, who were devastated by the recession, have seen their financial prospects stagnate. We're on top of the world geopolitically, but the fruits of that dominance benefit multinational corporations who couldn't less of a fvck about this country, especially the poor people in this country. It's the fact that people have been hearing the same slogans for decades, but have only seen a downward slide as they elected bought suit after bought suit. It's the fact that the establishment's response to concerns over standard of living, wage, and unemployment concerns has been to double-down on freemarket essentialism (which pretty much no one gives a fvck about) while promising to pander more to illegal immigrants.

Right. I agree with most of this, but that's not what Trump stands for. That's what democrats try to do: increase taxes on the richest members of society. Create social programs like Medicare to help people down on their luck and senior citizens. Make insurance companies accept people with pre-existing conditions so we don't leave people dying on the street. These are all things that Obama and the democrats have been trying to achieve for a while now.

Lol. That's why he achieved all of that when he had a democratic legislature for two years. If democrats wanted to fix this, it would be fixed. Democrats do the same things that Republicans do, they just throw a few crumbs under the table while they do it.


What a crap answer. The party's are NOT the same. [sic]

What a compelling counter argument. I never claimed that they were the same, just that they both ultimately cater to the whims of the wealthiest people in America.

Want to know why more is not getting done, go ask the obstructionist GOP.

Of course, it's all the GOP, not the poor liddle Democrats, who of course never receive money from corporate interests or pass legislation which serves their needs. The Clintons had nothing to do with the various legislation which put hugely disproportionate amount of poor black people in jail.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/3/2016 7:47:37 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/3/2016 7:44:31 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/3/2016 5:48:47 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/3/2016 12:25:15 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/3/2016 12:04:52 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/2/2016 11:57:20 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/2/2016 11:21:55 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I hear time and again people complaining about the big bad "establishment" and how they are screwing everyone over and how Trump is the white knight in shining armor ready to give those people a kick in the butt and advocate for the interests of the common man. Its a vague argument. I'd love to hear someone talk about specifics.

To sum it up, they support corporate interests over American interests. They raise the H1-B visa cap even though there is no skilled labor shortage. They fail to address illegal immigration of secure borders. They allow poor people (especially poor black people) to be imprisoned en masse and then wipe the crocodile tears from their eyes whenever a black kid is killed in a confrontation with police. They pass policies which ensure that the fruits of the recovery from the recession flow to the coffers of the richest members of this country while the middle and lower classes, who were devastated by the recession, have seen their financial prospects stagnate. We're on top of the world geopolitically, but the fruits of that dominance benefit multinational corporations who couldn't less of a fvck about this country, especially the poor people in this country. It's the fact that people have been hearing the same slogans for decades, but have only seen a downward slide as they elected bought suit after bought suit. It's the fact that the establishment's response to concerns over standard of living, wage, and unemployment concerns has been to double-down on freemarket essentialism (which pretty much no one gives a fvck about) while promising to pander more to illegal immigrants.

Right. I agree with most of this, but that's not what Trump stands for. That's what democrats try to do: increase taxes on the richest members of society. Create social programs like Medicare to help people down on their luck and senior citizens. Make insurance companies accept people with pre-existing conditions so we don't leave people dying on the street. These are all things that Obama and the democrats have been trying to achieve for a while now.

Lol. That's why he achieved all of that when he had a democratic legislature for two years. If democrats wanted to fix this, it would be fixed. Democrats do the same things that Republicans do, they just throw a few crumbs under the table while they do it.


What a crap answer. The party's are NOT the same. [sic]

What a compelling counter argument. I never claimed that they were the same, just that they both ultimately cater to the whims of the wealthiest people in America.

Want to know why more is not getting done, go ask the obstructionist GOP.

Of course, it's all the GOP, not the poor liddle Democrats, who of course never receive money from corporate interests or pass legislation which serves their needs. The Clintons had nothing to do with the various legislation which put hugely disproportionate amount of poor black people in jail.

Yea yea... "But you too..." Please... Find me the Republican who is working hard for the middle class. Please identify him for me. What about on the Democrat side? Think you can find a couple?
Greyparrot
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3/3/2016 8:16:37 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/3/2016 4:51:35 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 3/2/2016 11:48:17 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Adding onto that, most conservatives talk about themselves as free-market capitalists but building a wall actually impedes the free market. Mexico provides cheap labor which the United States will find difficult to compete against. But if all Mexicans who cross the border can legally work, this will create a situation where companies will hire people who best fit the job for the least amount of pay - the free market at work. This will improve the economies of both the United States and Mexico.

The wall is a contrived construct meant to create artificial labor scarcity in the US and I don't understand how anyone who is passionate about the free market can also support building a wall.

I oppose most immigration restrictions for this reason.

I would rather pay an additional 15 cents per orange if I know the money would go to Americans. The poor have food stamps anyway, they don't care about food prices.
imabench
Posts: 21,229
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3/3/2016 8:33:29 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/3/2016 8:16:37 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/3/2016 4:51:35 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 3/2/2016 11:48:17 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Adding onto that, most conservatives talk about themselves as free-market capitalists but building a wall actually impedes the free market. Mexico provides cheap labor which the United States will find difficult to compete against. But if all Mexicans who cross the border can legally work, this will create a situation where companies will hire people who best fit the job for the least amount of pay - the free market at work. This will improve the economies of both the United States and Mexico.

The wall is a contrived construct meant to create artificial labor scarcity in the US and I don't understand how anyone who is passionate about the free market can also support building a wall.

I oppose most immigration restrictions for this reason.

I would rather pay an additional 15 cents per orange if I know the money would go to Americans. The poor have food stamps anyway, they don't care about food prices.

Food stamps dont work like 'get out of jail free' cards where 1 of them gets you whatever item of food you want.....
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Greyparrot
Posts: 14,317
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3/3/2016 8:36:00 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/3/2016 8:33:29 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/3/2016 8:16:37 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/3/2016 4:51:35 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 3/2/2016 11:48:17 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Adding onto that, most conservatives talk about themselves as free-market capitalists but building a wall actually impedes the free market. Mexico provides cheap labor which the United States will find difficult to compete against. But if all Mexicans who cross the border can legally work, this will create a situation where companies will hire people who best fit the job for the least amount of pay - the free market at work. This will improve the economies of both the United States and Mexico.

The wall is a contrived construct meant to create artificial labor scarcity in the US and I don't understand how anyone who is passionate about the free market can also support building a wall.

I oppose most immigration restrictions for this reason.

I would rather pay an additional 15 cents per orange if I know the money would go to Americans. The poor have food stamps anyway, they don't care about food prices.

Food stamps dont work like 'get out of jail free' cards where 1 of them gets you whatever item of food you want.....

I was on them once. What a sweet deal! 300 dollars a month can supply a big fat person.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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3/3/2016 9:50:18 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/3/2016 7:47:37 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/3/2016 7:44:31 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/3/2016 5:48:47 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/3/2016 12:25:15 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/3/2016 12:04:52 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/2/2016 11:57:20 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/2/2016 11:21:55 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I hear time and again people complaining about the big bad "establishment" and how they are screwing everyone over and how Trump is the white knight in shining armor ready to give those people a kick in the butt and advocate for the interests of the common man. Its a vague argument. I'd love to hear someone talk about specifics.

To sum it up, they support corporate interests over American interests. They raise the H1-B visa cap even though there is no skilled labor shortage. They fail to address illegal immigration of secure borders. They allow poor people (especially poor black people) to be imprisoned en masse and then wipe the crocodile tears from their eyes whenever a black kid is killed in a confrontation with police. They pass policies which ensure that the fruits of the recovery from the recession flow to the coffers of the richest members of this country while the middle and lower classes, who were devastated by the recession, have seen their financial prospects stagnate. We're on top of the world geopolitically, but the fruits of that dominance benefit multinational corporations who couldn't less of a fvck about this country, especially the poor people in this country. It's the fact that people have been hearing the same slogans for decades, but have only seen a downward slide as they elected bought suit after bought suit. It's the fact that the establishment's response to concerns over standard of living, wage, and unemployment concerns has been to double-down on freemarket essentialism (which pretty much no one gives a fvck about) while promising to pander more to illegal immigrants.

Right. I agree with most of this, but that's not what Trump stands for. That's what democrats try to do: increase taxes on the richest members of society. Create social programs like Medicare to help people down on their luck and senior citizens. Make insurance companies accept people with pre-existing conditions so we don't leave people dying on the street. These are all things that Obama and the democrats have been trying to achieve for a while now.

Lol. That's why he achieved all of that when he had a democratic legislature for two years. If democrats wanted to fix this, it would be fixed. Democrats do the same things that Republicans do, they just throw a few crumbs under the table while they do it.


What a crap answer. The party's are NOT the same. [sic]

What a compelling counter argument. I never claimed that they were the same, just that they both ultimately cater to the whims of the wealthiest people in America.

Want to know why more is not getting done, go ask the obstructionist GOP.

Of course, it's all the GOP, not the poor liddle Democrats, who of course never receive money from corporate interests or pass legislation which serves their needs. The Clintons had nothing to do with the various legislation which put hugely disproportionate amount of poor black people in jail.

Yea yea... "But you too..." Please... Find me the Republican who is working hard for the middle class. Please identify him for me. What about on the Democrat side? Think you can find a couple?

Lol, I swear, you are being so narrow-minded. 'He thinks that Democrats aren't great for poor people? HE MUST BE A REPUBLICAN!' I don't think that Republicans are great for poor people. I think that they've been horrible for poor people. But Democrats are absolutely sh!tty for them as well, they're just a tiny bit less sh!tty. That's the whole point of people who hate the establishment: the lower classes are divided between the parties using stupid sh*t like wedge social issues and racial antagonism, and then their voices are ignored to a huge extent while the political class doles out favors to their donors. I don't want two parties which are owned by the rich and pander to the poor while, in the grand scheme of things, they fleece them in order to enrich their owners. Anyone who is unwaveringly loyal to a political party's establishment reinforces that system, and is complicit in it. I liked Bernie because he was a challenge to the party establishment, but we saw how efficiently El Clinton put down that little revolt.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -