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Inadvertent racially "uncomfortable" envirome

TBR
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3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
On the heels of YYWs thread about microagressions, I am thinking about inadvertently creating environments that may be perceived as raciest. YYW mentioned meetings where only white men were in attendance, and this example speaks to that.

I go to a coffee shop every morning - usually early. The place has a very good "regular" crowd, all hitting about the same time each day. Some linger on the comfy chairs, all have a few bits of news or general conversation every day. From "yeah, have a good day." to argumentative political conversations. This group of regulars is nearly 100% white.

Now, from time to time you will see a black person make it in. I think about the possibility that it is a uncomfortable environment. It is, to put it another way, a "club" built into a public place, and by happenstance is made up near 100% of white men. None of these people would think they are intentionally making a uncomfortable environment for black people, but it exists regardless.

Thoughts?
TBR
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3/9/2016 6:59:36 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
On the heels of YYWs thread about microagressions, I am thinking about inadvertently creating environments that may be perceived as raciest. YYW mentioned meetings where only white men were in attendance, and this example speaks to that.

I go to a coffee shop every morning - usually early. The place has a very good "regular" crowd, all hitting about the same time each day. Some linger on the comfy chairs, all have a few bits of news or general conversation every day. From "yeah, have a good day." to argumentative political conversations. This group of regulars is nearly 100% white.

Now, from time to time you will see a black person make it in. I think about the possibility that it is a uncomfortable environment. It is, to put it another way, a "club" built into a public place, and by happenstance is made up near 100% of white men. None of these people would think they are intentionally making a uncomfortable environment for black people, but it exists regardless.

Thoughts?

OK. Here is another example. I lived and worked in California for about 10 years. I was absolutely shocked by the lack of black people - me coming from Chicago. I just looked it up, the town has demographics of 92.2% white .6% black. No joke. That is the split. Just seeing a black guy was an anomaly.

A black guy who I worked with, a very successful broker, would go to lunch with me and the CEO several times at his country club. This racially rarefied area added to the rarefied environment of every country club in the country. That is, primarily unintentionally, a difficult environment. Are we, the white guys, responsible for the environment? How much effort should be expelled to make him comfortable?
Maikuru
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3/9/2016 7:08:38 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
Thoughts?

My initial thought was a shrug. Businesses and public gathering points attract certain people, be it because of the demographics of their local community, the theme of the business, or other intentional or unintentional screening processes. In the cases you describe, I don't think it is the responsibility of the patrons to make anyone more or less comfortable in those spaces. They are just the clientele and the businesses don't seem to be intentionally excluding anyone.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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popculturepooka
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3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 6:59:36 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
On the heels of YYWs thread about microagressions, I am thinking about inadvertently creating environments that may be perceived as raciest. YYW mentioned meetings where only white men were in attendance, and this example speaks to that.

I go to a coffee shop every morning - usually early. The place has a very good "regular" crowd, all hitting about the same time each day. Some linger on the comfy chairs, all have a few bits of news or general conversation every day. From "yeah, have a good day." to argumentative political conversations. This group of regulars is nearly 100% white.

Now, from time to time you will see a black person make it in. I think about the possibility that it is a uncomfortable environment. It is, to put it another way, a "club" built into a public place, and by happenstance is made up near 100% of white men. None of these people would think they are intentionally making a uncomfortable environment for black people, but it exists regardless.

Thoughts?

OK. Here is another example. I lived and worked in California for about 10 years. I was absolutely shocked by the lack of black people - me coming from Chicago. I just looked it up, the town has demographics of 92.2% white .6% black. No joke. That is the split. Just seeing a black guy was an anomaly.

A black guy who I worked with, a very successful broker, would go to lunch with me and the CEO several times at his country club. This racially rarefied area added to the rarefied environment of every country club in the country. That is, primarily unintentionally, a difficult environment. Are we, the white guys, responsible for the environment? How much effort should be expelled to make him comfortable?

I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Maikuru
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3/9/2016 7:16:25 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:59:36 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
On the heels of YYWs thread about microagressions, I am thinking about inadvertently creating environments that may be perceived as raciest. YYW mentioned meetings where only white men were in attendance, and this example speaks to that.

I go to a coffee shop every morning - usually early. The place has a very good "regular" crowd, all hitting about the same time each day. Some linger on the comfy chairs, all have a few bits of news or general conversation every day. From "yeah, have a good day." to argumentative political conversations. This group of regulars is nearly 100% white.

Now, from time to time you will see a black person make it in. I think about the possibility that it is a uncomfortable environment. It is, to put it another way, a "club" built into a public place, and by happenstance is made up near 100% of white men. None of these people would think they are intentionally making a uncomfortable environment for black people, but it exists regardless.

Thoughts?

OK. Here is another example. I lived and worked in California for about 10 years. I was absolutely shocked by the lack of black people - me coming from Chicago. I just looked it up, the town has demographics of 92.2% white .6% black. No joke. That is the split. Just seeing a black guy was an anomaly.

A black guy who I worked with, a very successful broker, would go to lunch with me and the CEO several times at his country club. This racially rarefied area added to the rarefied environment of every country club in the country. That is, primarily unintentionally, a difficult environment. Are we, the white guys, responsible for the environment? How much effort should be expelled to make him comfortable?

I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

Of course you come in immediately after me and make a better point =(

I agree, the clientele is the clientele and if there is any issue here, it's just hoping that all patrons will be treated equally. From the descriptions we've gotten, it doesn't sound like there is a cause for concern, but I think it is a natural human tendency to take notice of someone outside of our expectations and adjust our behavior, be it out of our personal biases, self-consciousness, surprise, etc.

It's like when I go to the barbers. When it's all guys, there's laughing and joking and fun. Once somebody brings their girlfriend, it's silent in there lol. People feel more comfortable around their own groups because they understand the norms.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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YYW
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3/9/2016 8:26:38 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
On the heels of YYWs thread about microagressions, I am thinking about inadvertently creating environments that may be perceived as raciest. YYW mentioned meetings where only white men were in attendance, and this example speaks to that.

I go to a coffee shop every morning - usually early. The place has a very good "regular" crowd, all hitting about the same time each day. Some linger on the comfy chairs, all have a few bits of news or general conversation every day. From "yeah, have a good day." to argumentative political conversations. This group of regulars is nearly 100% white.

Now, from time to time you will see a black person make it in. I think about the possibility that it is a uncomfortable environment. It is, to put it another way, a "club" built into a public place, and by happenstance is made up near 100% of white men. None of these people would think they are intentionally making a uncomfortable environment for black people, but it exists regardless.

Thoughts?

Obviously unless your coffee shop is also the local Klan meeting outpost, there is no reason why a black person who walks into that room should feel out of place.

Do you make a regular habit of fraternizing with the likes of David Duke supporters? How about just general white supremacists? Somehow I doubt it.

The really worthwhile discussion in this case will focus on why black people feel out of place in rooms with mostly white people. By the standard of micro-aggressions, even a room that is representative of the overall population would constitute a micro-aggression.

The real problem has to do with the fact that blacks and other minorities are admitted to institutions of higher education where they learn how they have been the victims of imagined racial violence their entire lives, and then promptly do repulsive things like what #blacklivesmatter did at Mizzou.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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3/9/2016 8:28:05 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

Because all white people behave like elementary school students?
Tsar of DDO
popculturepooka
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3/9/2016 8:32:12 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 8:28:05 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

Because all white people behave like elementary school students?

Where did I say that? Point specifically to where I said that.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
TBR
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3/9/2016 8:33:40 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 8:26:38 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
On the heels of YYWs thread about microagressions, I am thinking about inadvertently creating environments that may be perceived as raciest. YYW mentioned meetings where only white men were in attendance, and this example speaks to that.

I go to a coffee shop every morning - usually early. The place has a very good "regular" crowd, all hitting about the same time each day. Some linger on the comfy chairs, all have a few bits of news or general conversation every day. From "yeah, have a good day." to argumentative political conversations. This group of regulars is nearly 100% white.

Now, from time to time you will see a black person make it in. I think about the possibility that it is a uncomfortable environment. It is, to put it another way, a "club" built into a public place, and by happenstance is made up near 100% of white men. None of these people would think they are intentionally making a uncomfortable environment for black people, but it exists regardless.

Thoughts?

Obviously unless your coffee shop is also the local Klan meeting outpost, there is no reason why a black person who walks into that room should feel out of place.

Do you make a regular habit of fraternizing with the likes of David Duke supporters? How about just general white supremacists? Somehow I doubt it.

The really worthwhile discussion in this case will focus on why black people feel out of place in rooms with mostly white people. By the standard of micro-aggressions, even a room that is representative of the overall population would constitute a micro-aggression.

The real problem has to do with the fact that blacks and other minorities are admitted to institutions of higher education where they learn how they have been the victims of imagined racial violence their entire lives, and then promptly do repulsive things like what #blacklivesmatter did at Mizzou.

And that is where I am driving this bus. The white guys in the room are not creating any purposful exclusionary situation. It just happens. Does that mean I need to do anything? If so. What am I to do?
YYW
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3/9/2016 8:38:29 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 8:33:40 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/9/2016 8:26:38 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
On the heels of YYWs thread about microagressions, I am thinking about inadvertently creating environments that may be perceived as raciest. YYW mentioned meetings where only white men were in attendance, and this example speaks to that.

I go to a coffee shop every morning - usually early. The place has a very good "regular" crowd, all hitting about the same time each day. Some linger on the comfy chairs, all have a few bits of news or general conversation every day. From "yeah, have a good day." to argumentative political conversations. This group of regulars is nearly 100% white.

Now, from time to time you will see a black person make it in. I think about the possibility that it is a uncomfortable environment. It is, to put it another way, a "club" built into a public place, and by happenstance is made up near 100% of white men. None of these people would think they are intentionally making a uncomfortable environment for black people, but it exists regardless.

Thoughts?

Obviously unless your coffee shop is also the local Klan meeting outpost, there is no reason why a black person who walks into that room should feel out of place.

Do you make a regular habit of fraternizing with the likes of David Duke supporters? How about just general white supremacists? Somehow I doubt it.

The really worthwhile discussion in this case will focus on why black people feel out of place in rooms with mostly white people. By the standard of micro-aggressions, even a room that is representative of the overall population would constitute a micro-aggression.

The real problem has to do with the fact that blacks and other minorities are admitted to institutions of higher education where they learn how they have been the victims of imagined racial violence their entire lives, and then promptly do repulsive things like what #blacklivesmatter did at Mizzou.

And that is where I am driving this bus. The white guys in the room are not creating any purposful exclusionary situation. It just happens. Does that mean I need to do anything? If so. What am I to do?

Well that's exactly the point... there is no where to go after you talk about the myths of white oppression, or the fictional narratives of ubiquitous victimhood that social justice warriors contrive --other of course than to repeat the narratives and silence (not rebut, but silence) anyone who disagrees.

There are plenty of people on this forum, you will notice, who have very passionate and emotional responses to my critique of SJW-ideology (really, it's more like theology than anything else). At no point will they ever talk about how I'm straw-manning their view of the world, or you for that matter... they're just going to say "that I am." At no point will they say how they're not doing what I've said... they're just going to fall back on their narratives because that is all they have.

But narratives are not truth.
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popculturepooka
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3/9/2016 8:38:43 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 7:16:25 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:59:36 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
On the heels of YYWs thread about microagressions, I am thinking about inadvertently creating environments that may be perceived as raciest. YYW mentioned meetings where only white men were in attendance, and this example speaks to that.

I go to a coffee shop every morning - usually early. The place has a very good "regular" crowd, all hitting about the same time each day. Some linger on the comfy chairs, all have a few bits of news or general conversation every day. From "yeah, have a good day." to argumentative political conversations. This group of regulars is nearly 100% white.

Now, from time to time you will see a black person make it in. I think about the possibility that it is a uncomfortable environment. It is, to put it another way, a "club" built into a public place, and by happenstance is made up near 100% of white men. None of these people would think they are intentionally making a uncomfortable environment for black people, but it exists regardless.

Thoughts?

OK. Here is another example. I lived and worked in California for about 10 years. I was absolutely shocked by the lack of black people - me coming from Chicago. I just looked it up, the town has demographics of 92.2% white .6% black. No joke. That is the split. Just seeing a black guy was an anomaly.

A black guy who I worked with, a very successful broker, would go to lunch with me and the CEO several times at his country club. This racially rarefied area added to the rarefied environment of every country club in the country. That is, primarily unintentionally, a difficult environment. Are we, the white guys, responsible for the environment? How much effort should be expelled to make him comfortable?

I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

Of course you come in immediately after me and make a better point =(

I agree, the clientele is the clientele and if there is any issue here, it's just hoping that all patrons will be treated equally. From the descriptions we've gotten, it doesn't sound like there is a cause for concern, but I think it is a natural human tendency to take notice of someone outside of our expectations and adjust our behavior, be it out of our personal biases, self-consciousness, surprise, etc.


Agreed. From the situation described, I wouldn't worry about it that much. And so described I don't think I'd have much of a problem if I was placed in similar situation here.

It's like when I go to the barbers. When it's all guys, there's laughing and joking and fun. Once somebody brings their girlfriend, it's silent in there lol. People feel more comfortable around their own groups because they understand the norms.

True.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
YYW
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3/9/2016 8:41:37 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 8:32:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 8:28:05 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

Because all white people behave like elementary school students?

Where did I say that? Point specifically to where I said that.

I'm just trying to understand your perspective. You said:

The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

That sounds like elementary school type behavior. You said "usually" too, like this is commonplace. So at least a majority of people would be doing these things, right?
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Vox_Veritas
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3/9/2016 8:43:36 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:59:36 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
On the heels of YYWs thread about microagressions, I am thinking about inadvertently creating environments that may be perceived as raciest. YYW mentioned meetings where only white men were in attendance, and this example speaks to that.

I go to a coffee shop every morning - usually early. The place has a very good "regular" crowd, all hitting about the same time each day. Some linger on the comfy chairs, all have a few bits of news or general conversation every day. From "yeah, have a good day." to argumentative political conversations. This group of regulars is nearly 100% white.

Now, from time to time you will see a black person make it in. I think about the possibility that it is a uncomfortable environment. It is, to put it another way, a "club" built into a public place, and by happenstance is made up near 100% of white men. None of these people would think they are intentionally making a uncomfortable environment for black people, but it exists regardless.

Thoughts?

OK. Here is another example. I lived and worked in California for about 10 years. I was absolutely shocked by the lack of black people - me coming from Chicago. I just looked it up, the town has demographics of 92.2% white .6% black. No joke. That is the split. Just seeing a black guy was an anomaly.

A black guy who I worked with, a very successful broker, would go to lunch with me and the CEO several times at his country club. This racially rarefied area added to the rarefied environment of every country club in the country. That is, primarily unintentionally, a difficult environment. Are we, the white guys, responsible for the environment? How much effort should be expelled to make him comfortable?

I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

wut
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popculturepooka
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3/9/2016 8:54:28 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 8:43:36 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:59:36 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
On the heels of YYWs thread about microagressions, I am thinking about inadvertently creating environments that may be perceived as raciest. YYW mentioned meetings where only white men were in attendance, and this example speaks to that.

I go to a coffee shop every morning - usually early. The place has a very good "regular" crowd, all hitting about the same time each day. Some linger on the comfy chairs, all have a few bits of news or general conversation every day. From "yeah, have a good day." to argumentative political conversations. This group of regulars is nearly 100% white.

Now, from time to time you will see a black person make it in. I think about the possibility that it is a uncomfortable environment. It is, to put it another way, a "club" built into a public place, and by happenstance is made up near 100% of white men. None of these people would think they are intentionally making a uncomfortable environment for black people, but it exists regardless.

Thoughts?

OK. Here is another example. I lived and worked in California for about 10 years. I was absolutely shocked by the lack of black people - me coming from Chicago. I just looked it up, the town has demographics of 92.2% white .6% black. No joke. That is the split. Just seeing a black guy was an anomaly.

A black guy who I worked with, a very successful broker, would go to lunch with me and the CEO several times at his country club. This racially rarefied area added to the rarefied environment of every country club in the country. That is, primarily unintentionally, a difficult environment. Are we, the white guys, responsible for the environment? How much effort should be expelled to make him comfortable?

I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

wut

It happens. I've had it happen to me on multiple occasions. A lot more to the black women I know.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Romaniii
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3/9/2016 8:56:46 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:

Thoughts?

If you guys aren't treating the black person any differently than you're treating each other, then there's nothing more that y'all can do. It's his prerogative to feel uncomfortable -- if he does, then he's the one being irrational, and it's no fault of yours. Such is the case with pretty much all alleged "micro-aggressions."
YYW
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3/9/2016 9:00:25 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 8:43:36 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:59:36 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
On the heels of YYWs thread about microagressions, I am thinking about inadvertently creating environments that may be perceived as raciest. YYW mentioned meetings where only white men were in attendance, and this example speaks to that.

I go to a coffee shop every morning - usually early. The place has a very good "regular" crowd, all hitting about the same time each day. Some linger on the comfy chairs, all have a few bits of news or general conversation every day. From "yeah, have a good day." to argumentative political conversations. This group of regulars is nearly 100% white.

Now, from time to time you will see a black person make it in. I think about the possibility that it is a uncomfortable environment. It is, to put it another way, a "club" built into a public place, and by happenstance is made up near 100% of white men. None of these people would think they are intentionally making a uncomfortable environment for black people, but it exists regardless.

Thoughts?

OK. Here is another example. I lived and worked in California for about 10 years. I was absolutely shocked by the lack of black people - me coming from Chicago. I just looked it up, the town has demographics of 92.2% white .6% black. No joke. That is the split. Just seeing a black guy was an anomaly.

A black guy who I worked with, a very successful broker, would go to lunch with me and the CEO several times at his country club. This racially rarefied area added to the rarefied environment of every country club in the country. That is, primarily unintentionally, a difficult environment. Are we, the white guys, responsible for the environment? How much effort should be expelled to make him comfortable?

I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

wut

These things do not happen.... with the possible exception of slow service; anyone who has ever worked in the service industry will tell you that black people are the worst tippers on earth, and that is a fact. So it's not unreasonable to believe that waiters and waitresses are going to spend more time on patrons who are less likely to stiff them.

I know of a very good friend of mine in college who worked at an expensive steakhouse (like, more than Ruth's Chris, as a point of reference) in the summers when he went home. He worked as a waiter, and it paid (usually) more than he made when he was caddying, because meals there usually started at about $150.00. Table of four, that's a $600.00 meal even before alcohol, and a $120.00 tip per table.

Black businessmen came in the steakhouse one night. All black business men. Group of five (eight was the table minimum before the tip was automatically imposed). They ordered several hundred dollars worth of booze, all had multiple courses. Table bill was about two thousand dollars or so. That should have been a $400.00 tip minimum.

They tipped my friend $20.00 for the whole night, after drinking and celebrating, carrying on, and disturbing guests.

Of course their service was excellent, and this was the first time my friend had been in this situation. Most blacks simply can't afford to eat at that place, but these guys clearly could.

If that was an uncommon thing, blacks might get better service. The restaurant manager said that he would refuse any of them service if they ever came back in his restaurant because of that.
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dylancatlow
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3/9/2016 9:09:17 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 8:28:05 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

Because all white people behave like elementary school students?

"Sorry blackie, go play with the uncool kids."
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/9/2016 9:15:47 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 9:00:25 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 8:43:36 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:59:36 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
On the heels of YYWs thread about microagressions, I am thinking about inadvertently creating environments that may be perceived as raciest. YYW mentioned meetings where only white men were in attendance, and this example speaks to that.

I go to a coffee shop every morning - usually early. The place has a very good "regular" crowd, all hitting about the same time each day. Some linger on the comfy chairs, all have a few bits of news or general conversation every day. From "yeah, have a good day." to argumentative political conversations. This group of regulars is nearly 100% white.

Now, from time to time you will see a black person make it in. I think about the possibility that it is a uncomfortable environment. It is, to put it another way, a "club" built into a public place, and by happenstance is made up near 100% of white men. None of these people would think they are intentionally making a uncomfortable environment for black people, but it exists regardless.

Thoughts?

OK. Here is another example. I lived and worked in California for about 10 years. I was absolutely shocked by the lack of black people - me coming from Chicago. I just looked it up, the town has demographics of 92.2% white .6% black. No joke. That is the split. Just seeing a black guy was an anomaly.

A black guy who I worked with, a very successful broker, would go to lunch with me and the CEO several times at his country club. This racially rarefied area added to the rarefied environment of every country club in the country. That is, primarily unintentionally, a difficult environment. Are we, the white guys, responsible for the environment? How much effort should be expelled to make him comfortable?

I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

wut

These things do not happen....

Good to know me, my friends, and the countless other people who have said to experience these things are either liars or so fundamentally confused about perceptions as to be hopeless.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
YYW
Posts: 36,303
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3/9/2016 9:17:48 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 9:15:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:00:25 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 8:43:36 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:59:36 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
On the heels of YYWs thread about microagressions, I am thinking about inadvertently creating environments that may be perceived as raciest. YYW mentioned meetings where only white men were in attendance, and this example speaks to that.

I go to a coffee shop every morning - usually early. The place has a very good "regular" crowd, all hitting about the same time each day. Some linger on the comfy chairs, all have a few bits of news or general conversation every day. From "yeah, have a good day." to argumentative political conversations. This group of regulars is nearly 100% white.

Now, from time to time you will see a black person make it in. I think about the possibility that it is a uncomfortable environment. It is, to put it another way, a "club" built into a public place, and by happenstance is made up near 100% of white men. None of these people would think they are intentionally making a uncomfortable environment for black people, but it exists regardless.

Thoughts?

OK. Here is another example. I lived and worked in California for about 10 years. I was absolutely shocked by the lack of black people - me coming from Chicago. I just looked it up, the town has demographics of 92.2% white .6% black. No joke. That is the split. Just seeing a black guy was an anomaly.

A black guy who I worked with, a very successful broker, would go to lunch with me and the CEO several times at his country club. This racially rarefied area added to the rarefied environment of every country club in the country. That is, primarily unintentionally, a difficult environment. Are we, the white guys, responsible for the environment? How much effort should be expelled to make him comfortable?

I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

wut

These things do not happen....

Good to know me, my friends, and the countless other people who have said to experience these things are either liars or so fundamentally confused about perceptions as to be hopeless.

When was the last time a white person wanted to touch your hair?
Tsar of DDO
dylancatlow
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3/9/2016 9:20:01 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
I have to admit, I have requested to touch a black person's afro on a number of occasions, but only people I knew. Usually I was allowed to, after they sighed.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/9/2016 9:31:42 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 8:41:37 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 8:32:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 8:28:05 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

Because all white people behave like elementary school students?

Where did I say that? Point specifically to where I said that.

I'm just trying to understand your perspective. You said:

The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

That sounds like elementary school type behavior. You said "usually" too, like this is commonplace. So at least a majority of people would be doing these things, right?

The "usually" was in reference to the "uncomfortable" racial environment. As in it "usually" becomes uncomfortable when *insert list of actions*. I wouldn't say majority, but I would say it happens way too much to be ignored or put down as an anomaly.

In fact one of the warmest welcomes I've received was when me and my family went to all white (I mean literally no other non-whites) country town in Northern California near Oregon. I mean, they even had the stereotypical crazy old dude who lived off on the outskirts of town in tin cabin, with a dog and him sitting out on the porch chewing tobacco. Even he was nice.They were some of the nicest people ever. So it's not all-white environments per se that are inherently racist or racially uncomfortable.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
YYW
Posts: 36,303
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3/9/2016 9:33:05 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 9:31:42 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 8:41:37 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 8:32:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 8:28:05 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

Because all white people behave like elementary school students?

Where did I say that? Point specifically to where I said that.

I'm just trying to understand your perspective. You said:

The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

That sounds like elementary school type behavior. You said "usually" too, like this is commonplace. So at least a majority of people would be doing these things, right?

The "usually" was in reference to the "uncomfortable" racial environment. As in it "usually" becomes uncomfortable when *insert list of actions*. I wouldn't say majority, but I would say it happens way too much to be ignored or put down as an anomaly.

So how often? To you specifically? If there are things I'm missing, I want to know.

In fact one of the warmest welcomes I've received was when me and my family went to all white (I mean literally no other non-whites) country town in Northern California near Oregon. I mean, they even had the stereotypical crazy old dude who lived off on the outskirts of town in tin cabin, with a dog and him sitting out on the porch chewing tobacco. Even he was nice.They were some of the nicest people ever. So it's not all-white environments per se that are inherently racist or racially uncomfortable.

Well very good then.
Tsar of DDO
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/9/2016 9:42:46 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 9:17:48 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:15:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:00:25 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 8:43:36 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:59:36 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
On the heels of YYWs thread about microagressions, I am thinking about inadvertently creating environments that may be perceived as raciest. YYW mentioned meetings where only white men were in attendance, and this example speaks to that.

I go to a coffee shop every morning - usually early. The place has a very good "regular" crowd, all hitting about the same time each day. Some linger on the comfy chairs, all have a few bits of news or general conversation every day. From "yeah, have a good day." to argumentative political conversations. This group of regulars is nearly 100% white.

Now, from time to time you will see a black person make it in. I think about the possibility that it is a uncomfortable environment. It is, to put it another way, a "club" built into a public place, and by happenstance is made up near 100% of white men. None of these people would think they are intentionally making a uncomfortable environment for black people, but it exists regardless.

Thoughts?

OK. Here is another example. I lived and worked in California for about 10 years. I was absolutely shocked by the lack of black people - me coming from Chicago. I just looked it up, the town has demographics of 92.2% white .6% black. No joke. That is the split. Just seeing a black guy was an anomaly.

A black guy who I worked with, a very successful broker, would go to lunch with me and the CEO several times at his country club. This racially rarefied area added to the rarefied environment of every country club in the country. That is, primarily unintentionally, a difficult environment. Are we, the white guys, responsible for the environment? How much effort should be expelled to make him comfortable?

I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

wut

These things do not happen....

Good to know me, my friends, and the countless other people who have said to experience these things are either liars or so fundamentally confused about perceptions as to be hopeless.

When was the last time a white person wanted to touch your hair?

About 1 month ago when I cut my hair, and it happened a lot more when I had longer hair. Sometimes they don't even ask for permission.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
YYW
Posts: 36,303
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3/9/2016 9:43:43 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 9:42:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:17:48 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:15:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:00:25 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 8:43:36 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:59:36 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
On the heels of YYWs thread about microagressions, I am thinking about inadvertently creating environments that may be perceived as raciest. YYW mentioned meetings where only white men were in attendance, and this example speaks to that.

I go to a coffee shop every morning - usually early. The place has a very good "regular" crowd, all hitting about the same time each day. Some linger on the comfy chairs, all have a few bits of news or general conversation every day. From "yeah, have a good day." to argumentative political conversations. This group of regulars is nearly 100% white.

Now, from time to time you will see a black person make it in. I think about the possibility that it is a uncomfortable environment. It is, to put it another way, a "club" built into a public place, and by happenstance is made up near 100% of white men. None of these people would think they are intentionally making a uncomfortable environment for black people, but it exists regardless.

Thoughts?

OK. Here is another example. I lived and worked in California for about 10 years. I was absolutely shocked by the lack of black people - me coming from Chicago. I just looked it up, the town has demographics of 92.2% white .6% black. No joke. That is the split. Just seeing a black guy was an anomaly.

A black guy who I worked with, a very successful broker, would go to lunch with me and the CEO several times at his country club. This racially rarefied area added to the rarefied environment of every country club in the country. That is, primarily unintentionally, a difficult environment. Are we, the white guys, responsible for the environment? How much effort should be expelled to make him comfortable?

I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

wut

These things do not happen....

Good to know me, my friends, and the countless other people who have said to experience these things are either liars or so fundamentally confused about perceptions as to be hopeless.

When was the last time a white person wanted to touch your hair?

About 1 month ago when I cut my hair, and it happened a lot more when I had longer hair. Sometimes they don't even ask for permission.

Are these like kids who are doing it, or fully grown people?

(So that you know, I have girls and gay guys who help themselves to my hair as well. It's not only a black thing.)
Tsar of DDO
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/9/2016 9:51:00 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 8:56:46 PM, Romaniii wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:

Thoughts?

If you guys aren't treating the black person any differently than you're treating each other, then there's nothing more that y'all can do. It's his prerogative to feel uncomfortable -- if he does, then he's the one being irrational, and it's no fault of yours. Such is the case with pretty much all alleged "micro-aggressions."

I am, or can be quite sure that.

1) The black guy has some level of discomfort
2) Any misunderstanding, or slight could be perceived as a "microaggression"
3) The white people in the environment are welcoming and kind, but perhaps slightly surprised by the unusual person in the otherwise Lilly white environment
4) Their reactions, possibility overly "welcoming" is natural too
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/9/2016 9:55:33 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 9:43:43 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:42:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:17:48 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:15:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:00:25 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 8:43:36 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:59:36 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
On the heels of YYWs thread about microagressions, I am thinking about inadvertently creating environments that may be perceived as raciest. YYW mentioned meetings where only white men were in attendance, and this example speaks to that.

I go to a coffee shop every morning - usually early. The place has a very good "regular" crowd, all hitting about the same time each day. Some linger on the comfy chairs, all have a few bits of news or general conversation every day. From "yeah, have a good day." to argumentative political conversations. This group of regulars is nearly 100% white.

Now, from time to time you will see a black person make it in. I think about the possibility that it is a uncomfortable environment. It is, to put it another way, a "club" built into a public place, and by happenstance is made up near 100% of white men. None of these people would think they are intentionally making a uncomfortable environment for black people, but it exists regardless.

Thoughts?

OK. Here is another example. I lived and worked in California for about 10 years. I was absolutely shocked by the lack of black people - me coming from Chicago. I just looked it up, the town has demographics of 92.2% white .6% black. No joke. That is the split. Just seeing a black guy was an anomaly.

A black guy who I worked with, a very successful broker, would go to lunch with me and the CEO several times at his country club. This racially rarefied area added to the rarefied environment of every country club in the country. That is, primarily unintentionally, a difficult environment. Are we, the white guys, responsible for the environment? How much effort should be expelled to make him comfortable?

I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

wut

These things do not happen....

Good to know me, my friends, and the countless other people who have said to experience these things are either liars or so fundamentally confused about perceptions as to be hopeless.

When was the last time a white person wanted to touch your hair?

About 1 month ago when I cut my hair, and it happened a lot more when I had longer hair. Sometimes they don't even ask for permission.

Are these like kids who are doing it, or fully grown people?

(So that you know, I have girls and gay guys who help themselves to my hair as well. It's not only a black thing.)

I think (know) this happens enough, but I laugh a bit. This is like a goto example. Like it is the archetypal example.

And yes. Happens to white people too. My very proper grandmother once asked to pull the pony tail of a waitress. It was so odd for her, but apparently she had some desire, she was like 90 years old, and damn it. When you are that close to the finish line you ask to do what you damn well want to.
YYW
Posts: 36,303
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3/9/2016 9:59:33 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 9:55:33 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:43:43 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:42:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:17:48 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:15:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:00:25 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 8:43:36 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:59:36 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
On the heels of YYWs thread about microagressions, I am thinking about inadvertently creating environments that may be perceived as raciest. YYW mentioned meetings where only white men were in attendance, and this example speaks to that.

I go to a coffee shop every morning - usually early. The place has a very good "regular" crowd, all hitting about the same time each day. Some linger on the comfy chairs, all have a few bits of news or general conversation every day. From "yeah, have a good day." to argumentative political conversations. This group of regulars is nearly 100% white.

Now, from time to time you will see a black person make it in. I think about the possibility that it is a uncomfortable environment. It is, to put it another way, a "club" built into a public place, and by happenstance is made up near 100% of white men. None of these people would think they are intentionally making a uncomfortable environment for black people, but it exists regardless.

Thoughts?

OK. Here is another example. I lived and worked in California for about 10 years. I was absolutely shocked by the lack of black people - me coming from Chicago. I just looked it up, the town has demographics of 92.2% white .6% black. No joke. That is the split. Just seeing a black guy was an anomaly.

A black guy who I worked with, a very successful broker, would go to lunch with me and the CEO several times at his country club. This racially rarefied area added to the rarefied environment of every country club in the country. That is, primarily unintentionally, a difficult environment. Are we, the white guys, responsible for the environment? How much effort should be expelled to make him comfortable?

I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

wut

These things do not happen....

Good to know me, my friends, and the countless other people who have said to experience these things are either liars or so fundamentally confused about perceptions as to be hopeless.

When was the last time a white person wanted to touch your hair?

About 1 month ago when I cut my hair, and it happened a lot more when I had longer hair. Sometimes they don't even ask for permission.

Are these like kids who are doing it, or fully grown people?

(So that you know, I have girls and gay guys who help themselves to my hair as well. It's not only a black thing.)

I think (know) this happens enough, but I laugh a bit. This is like a goto example. Like it is the archetypal example.

And yes. Happens to white people too. My very proper grandmother once asked to pull the pony tail of a waitress. It was so odd for her, but apparently she had some desire, she was like 90 years old, and damn it. When you are that close to the finish line you ask to do what you damn well want to.

Oh yeah.

My hair is pretty long now. Like, younger Justin Trodeau long. (gay) Guys love to run their hands through it. Girls do even more, often without asking.

Any guy who has long hair (and keeps it clean) knows this happens.
Tsar of DDO
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/9/2016 10:07:35 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 9:59:33 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:55:33 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:43:43 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:42:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:17:48 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:15:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 9:00:25 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 8:43:36 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:59:36 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
On the heels of YYWs thread about microagressions, I am thinking about inadvertently creating environments that may be perceived as raciest. YYW mentioned meetings where only white men were in attendance, and this example speaks to that.

I go to a coffee shop every morning - usually early. The place has a very good "regular" crowd, all hitting about the same time each day. Some linger on the comfy chairs, all have a few bits of news or general conversation every day. From "yeah, have a good day." to argumentative political conversations. This group of regulars is nearly 100% white.

Now, from time to time you will see a black person make it in. I think about the possibility that it is a uncomfortable environment. It is, to put it another way, a "club" built into a public place, and by happenstance is made up near 100% of white men. None of these people would think they are intentionally making a uncomfortable environment for black people, but it exists regardless.

Thoughts?

OK. Here is another example. I lived and worked in California for about 10 years. I was absolutely shocked by the lack of black people - me coming from Chicago. I just looked it up, the town has demographics of 92.2% white .6% black. No joke. That is the split. Just seeing a black guy was an anomaly.

A black guy who I worked with, a very successful broker, would go to lunch with me and the CEO several times at his country club. This racially rarefied area added to the rarefied environment of every country club in the country. That is, primarily unintentionally, a difficult environment. Are we, the white guys, responsible for the environment? How much effort should be expelled to make him comfortable?

I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

wut

These things do not happen....

Good to know me, my friends, and the countless other people who have said to experience these things are either liars or so fundamentally confused about perceptions as to be hopeless.

When was the last time a white person wanted to touch your hair?

About 1 month ago when I cut my hair, and it happened a lot more when I had longer hair. Sometimes they don't even ask for permission.

Are these like kids who are doing it, or fully grown people?

(So that you know, I have girls and gay guys who help themselves to my hair as well. It's not only a black thing.)

I think (know) this happens enough, but I laugh a bit. This is like a goto example. Like it is the archetypal example.

And yes. Happens to white people too. My very proper grandmother once asked to pull the pony tail of a waitress. It was so odd for her, but apparently she had some desire, she was like 90 years old, and damn it. When you are that close to the finish line you ask to do what you damn well want to.

Oh yeah.

My hair is pretty long now. Like, younger Justin Trodeau long. (gay) Guys love to run their hands through it. Girls do even more, often without asking.

Any guy who has long hair (and keeps it clean) knows this happens.

I was at Pride one year, and was literally getting pet by some gay guy. Now, my guess is he was enjoying some nice altered brain chemistry, but...
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/9/2016 10:52:00 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/9/2016 9:00:25 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/9/2016 8:43:36 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/9/2016 7:08:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:59:36 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/9/2016 6:28:51 PM, TBR wrote:
On the heels of YYWs thread about microagressions, I am thinking about inadvertently creating environments that may be perceived as raciest. YYW mentioned meetings where only white men were in attendance, and this example speaks to that.

I go to a coffee shop every morning - usually early. The place has a very good "regular" crowd, all hitting about the same time each day. Some linger on the comfy chairs, all have a few bits of news or general conversation every day. From "yeah, have a good day." to argumentative political conversations. This group of regulars is nearly 100% white.

Now, from time to time you will see a black person make it in. I think about the possibility that it is a uncomfortable environment. It is, to put it another way, a "club" built into a public place, and by happenstance is made up near 100% of white men. None of these people would think they are intentionally making a uncomfortable environment for black people, but it exists regardless.

Thoughts?

OK. Here is another example. I lived and worked in California for about 10 years. I was absolutely shocked by the lack of black people - me coming from Chicago. I just looked it up, the town has demographics of 92.2% white .6% black. No joke. That is the split. Just seeing a black guy was an anomaly.

A black guy who I worked with, a very successful broker, would go to lunch with me and the CEO several times at his country club. This racially rarefied area added to the rarefied environment of every country club in the country. That is, primarily unintentionally, a difficult environment. Are we, the white guys, responsible for the environment? How much effort should be expelled to make him comfortable?

I don't think much effort should be expended on that other than treating him like you would treat any other person. The problem isn't the (nearly) all white enviroment itself, it's usually the treatment that come come with it (the stares, quickly averted eyes, refusing to shake your hand, slow service, refused service, snickers, the requests to touch your hair, etc)

wut

These things do not happen.... with the possible exception of slow service; anyone who has ever worked in the service industry will tell you that black people are the worst tippers on earth, and that is a fact. So it's not unreasonable to believe that waiters and waitresses are going to spend more time on patrons who are less likely to stiff them.

I know of a very good friend of mine in college who worked at an expensive steakhouse (like, more than Ruth's Chris, as a point of reference) in the summers when he went home. He worked as a waiter, and it paid (usually) more than he made when he was caddying, because meals there usually started at about $150.00. Table of four, that's a $600.00 meal even before alcohol, and a $120.00 tip per table.

Black businessmen came in the steakhouse one night. All black business men. Group of five (eight was the table minimum before the tip was automatically imposed). They ordered several hundred dollars worth of booze, all had multiple courses. Table bill was about two thousand dollars or so. That should have been a $400.00 tip minimum.

They tipped my friend $20.00 for the whole night, after drinking and celebrating, carrying on, and disturbing guests.

Of course their service was excellent, and this was the first time my friend had been in this situation. Most blacks simply can't afford to eat at that place, but these guys clearly could.

If that was an uncommon thing, blacks might get better service. The restaurant manager said that he would refuse any of them service if they ever came back in his restaurant because of that.

1) you are making me want to go to Ruth crisps.
2) black people don't tip well, and its just reality