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Bernie Sanders' letter to Margaret Thatcher

1harderthanyouthink
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3/19/2016 3:12:36 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
In 1981, Mayor of Burlington, Vermont - Bernard Sanders wrote a letter to Margaret Thatcher on behalf of the Irish republican prisoners. Here it is:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk...

Any thoughts on that?
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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Greyparrot
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3/19/2016 3:40:38 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 3:12:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
In 1981, Mayor of Burlington, Vermont - Bernard Sanders wrote a letter to Margaret Thatcher on behalf of the Irish republican prisoners. Here it is:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk...

Any thoughts on that?

Good thing intra-national politics are separate from inter-national politics...
1harderthanyouthink
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3/19/2016 3:41:59 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 3:40:38 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:12:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
In 1981, Mayor of Burlington, Vermont - Bernard Sanders wrote a letter to Margaret Thatcher on behalf of the Irish republican prisoners. Here it is:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk...

Any thoughts on that?

Good thing intra-national politics are separate from inter-national politics...

So you didn't like the letter?
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Greyparrot
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3/19/2016 3:45:57 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 3:41:59 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:40:38 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:12:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
In 1981, Mayor of Burlington, Vermont - Bernard Sanders wrote a letter to Margaret Thatcher on behalf of the Irish republican prisoners. Here it is:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk...

Any thoughts on that?

Good thing intra-national politics are separate from inter-national politics...

So you didn't like the letter?

There are so many things wrong about lecturing a country on how to deal with local terrorists. Remember our lectures to Putin on how to deal with Chechnya?

Cultures are different yo, and most people can't see the large scope of actual problems to make a call on the scales of morality of a foreign nation.
1harderthanyouthink
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3/19/2016 3:47:37 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 3:45:57 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:41:59 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:40:38 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:12:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
In 1981, Mayor of Burlington, Vermont - Bernard Sanders wrote a letter to Margaret Thatcher on behalf of the Irish republican prisoners. Here it is:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk...

Any thoughts on that?

Good thing intra-national politics are separate from inter-national politics...

So you didn't like the letter?

There are so many things wrong about lecturing a country on how to deal with local terrorists. Remember our lectures to Putin on how to deal with Chechnya?

Cultures are different yo, and most people can't see the large scope of actual problems to make a call on the scales of morality of a foreign nation.

Right, but I think the UK has a similar enough culture to ours to be criticized on the handling of their prisoners.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Greyparrot
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3/19/2016 3:52:13 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 3:47:37 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:45:57 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:41:59 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:40:38 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:12:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
In 1981, Mayor of Burlington, Vermont - Bernard Sanders wrote a letter to Margaret Thatcher on behalf of the Irish republican prisoners. Here it is:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk...

Any thoughts on that?

Good thing intra-national politics are separate from inter-national politics...

So you didn't like the letter?

There are so many things wrong about lecturing a country on how to deal with local terrorists. Remember our lectures to Putin on how to deal with Chechnya?

Cultures are different yo, and most people can't see the large scope of actual problems to make a call on the scales of morality of a foreign nation.

Right, but I think the UK has a similar enough culture to ours to be criticized on the handling of their prisoners.

I'm not so sure, we never had to live with the up close gruesomeness of the Provisional Irish Republican Army.
1harderthanyouthink
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3/19/2016 3:54:09 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 3:52:13 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:47:37 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:45:57 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:41:59 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:40:38 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:12:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
In 1981, Mayor of Burlington, Vermont - Bernard Sanders wrote a letter to Margaret Thatcher on behalf of the Irish republican prisoners. Here it is:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk...

Any thoughts on that?

Good thing intra-national politics are separate from inter-national politics...

So you didn't like the letter?

There are so many things wrong about lecturing a country on how to deal with local terrorists. Remember our lectures to Putin on how to deal with Chechnya?

Cultures are different yo, and most people can't see the large scope of actual problems to make a call on the scales of morality of a foreign nation.

Right, but I think the UK has a similar enough culture to ours to be criticized on the handling of their prisoners.

I'm not so sure, we never had to live with the up close gruesomeness of the Provisional Irish Republican Army.

Fair enough.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Greyparrot
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3/19/2016 3:57:09 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 3:47:37 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

Cultures are different yo, and most people can't see the large scope of actual problems to make a call on the scales of morality of a foreign nation.

Right, but I think the UK has a similar enough culture to ours to be criticized on the handling of their prisoners.

And really, this gets at the meat of it all. Either you are suggesting that the entire world conforms, with force if necessary, to American morals, or you assume that all nations deep down really want to be just like us. That kind of ethnocentric reasoning is the driver for 70 straight years of failed foreign internationalist policies.
1harderthanyouthink
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3/19/2016 4:02:52 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 3:57:09 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:47:37 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

Cultures are different yo, and most people can't see the large scope of actual problems to make a call on the scales of morality of a foreign nation.

Right, but I think the UK has a similar enough culture to ours to be criticized on the handling of their prisoners.

And really, this gets at the meat of it all. Either you are suggesting that the entire world conforms, with force if necessary, to American morals, or you assume that all nations deep down really want to be just like us. That kind of ethnocentric reasoning is the driver for 70 straight years of failed foreign internationalist policies.

I agree we can't enforce our morals, but I think it's also a poor choice to compare England to Russia.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Greyparrot
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3/19/2016 4:05:50 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 4:02:52 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:57:09 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:47:37 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

Cultures are different yo, and most people can't see the large scope of actual problems to make a call on the scales of morality of a foreign nation.

Right, but I think the UK has a similar enough culture to ours to be criticized on the handling of their prisoners.

And really, this gets at the meat of it all. Either you are suggesting that the entire world conforms, with force if necessary, to American morals, or you assume that all nations deep down really want to be just like us. That kind of ethnocentric reasoning is the driver for 70 straight years of failed foreign internationalist policies.

I agree we can't enforce our morals, but I think it's also a poor choice to compare England to Russia.

When I was your age, I was assigned a book to read called "The Ugly American"

The book describes why we lost in Vietnam in the realm of ideologies. It's a very straightforward explanation about why our current approach to problems in the world is a complete disaster.
1harderthanyouthink
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3/19/2016 4:10:29 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 4:05:50 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/19/2016 4:02:52 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:57:09 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:47:37 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

Cultures are different yo, and most people can't see the large scope of actual problems to make a call on the scales of morality of a foreign nation.

Right, but I think the UK has a similar enough culture to ours to be criticized on the handling of their prisoners.

And really, this gets at the meat of it all. Either you are suggesting that the entire world conforms, with force if necessary, to American morals, or you assume that all nations deep down really want to be just like us. That kind of ethnocentric reasoning is the driver for 70 straight years of failed foreign internationalist policies.

I agree we can't enforce our morals, but I think it's also a poor choice to compare England to Russia.

When I was your age, I was assigned a book to read called "The Ugly American"

The book describes why we lost in Vietnam in the realm of ideologies. It's a very straightforward explanation about why our current approach to problems in the world is a complete disaster.

Again, Vietnam is no England. The situations aren't quite comparable. Regardless, this letter was more of a "you're better than this" than "we will invade your country".
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Greyparrot
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3/19/2016 4:12:00 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 4:10:29 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

Again, Vietnam is no England. The situations aren't quite comparable. Regardless, this letter was more of a "you're better than this" than "we will invade your country".

No it wasn't. The letter was received as, "We are better than you."
1harderthanyouthink
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3/19/2016 4:14:08 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 4:12:00 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/19/2016 4:10:29 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Again, Vietnam is no England. The situations aren't quite comparable. Regardless, this letter was more of a "you're better than this" than "we will invade your country".

No it wasn't. The letter was received as, "We are better than you."

Even if it was, do you think it's comparable to Vietnam?
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Greyparrot
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3/19/2016 4:46:32 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 4:14:08 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/19/2016 4:12:00 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/19/2016 4:10:29 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Again, Vietnam is no England. The situations aren't quite comparable. Regardless, this letter was more of a "you're better than this" than "we will invade your country".

No it wasn't. The letter was received as, "We are better than you."

Even if it was, do you think it's comparable to Vietnam?

The wrong policies are the same wrong policies, regardless of how closer the skin color or similar language. Nations are much more different and complex than just superficial features.
Vox_Veritas
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3/19/2016 5:36:14 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Just for the sake of context, what was the "abuse, humiliation, and degrading treatment" that the letter referred to?
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Death23
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3/19/2016 6:53:28 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 3:12:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
In 1981, Mayor of Burlington, Vermont - Bernard Sanders wrote a letter to Margaret Thatcher on behalf of the Irish republican prisoners. Here it is:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk...

Any thoughts on that?

Nope
1harderthanyouthink
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3/19/2016 6:56:52 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 5:36:14 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Just for the sake of context, what was the "abuse, humiliation, and degrading treatment" that the letter referred to?

Thatcher had a pretty notable standoff with prisoners who we're a part of the Irish republican movement. 10 people died in a hunger strike - including one who was elected to Parliament while in prison.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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TN05
Posts: 4,492
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3/19/2016 8:15:56 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 3:12:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
In 1981, Mayor of Burlington, Vermont - Bernard Sanders wrote a letter to Margaret Thatcher on behalf of the Irish republican prisoners. Here it is:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk...

Any thoughts on that?

1) Why the heck was Bernie Sanders trying to involve himself in the Troubles?
2) It is no surprise that Sanders sided with left-wing terrorists here. He's done it in Cuba and Nicaragua as well.
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,043
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3/20/2016 12:08:26 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 8:15:56 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:12:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
In 1981, Mayor of Burlington, Vermont - Bernard Sanders wrote a letter to Margaret Thatcher on behalf of the Irish republican prisoners. Here it is:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk...

Any thoughts on that?

1) Why the heck was Bernie Sanders trying to involve himself in the Troubles?
2) It is no surprise that Sanders sided with left-wing terrorists here. He's done it in Cuba and Nicaragua as well.

If IRA are terrorists I guess George Washington was a terrorist also
BrendanD19
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3/20/2016 12:21:42 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 3:12:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
In 1981, Mayor of Burlington, Vermont - Bernard Sanders wrote a letter to Margaret Thatcher on behalf of the Irish republican prisoners. Here it is:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk...

Any thoughts on that?

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TN05
Posts: 4,492
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3/20/2016 12:27:42 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 12:08:26 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 8:15:56 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:12:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
In 1981, Mayor of Burlington, Vermont - Bernard Sanders wrote a letter to Margaret Thatcher on behalf of the Irish republican prisoners. Here it is:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk...

Any thoughts on that?

1) Why the heck was Bernie Sanders trying to involve himself in the Troubles?
2) It is no surprise that Sanders sided with left-wing terrorists here. He's done it in Cuba and Nicaragua as well.

If IRA are terrorists I guess George Washington was a terrorist also

I wasn't aware George Washington was a religious terrorist who sought to join another country, against the will of the majority in his country, and set about this by murdering innocent civilians and police officers.

Seriously, IRA apologists like yourselves are scum. Irish republicanism is a fine idea. But I'd suggest you go about that by convincing the majority of Protestants and Catholics that don't want to do it, rather than by killing them.
tajshar2k
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3/20/2016 12:49:04 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 12:27:42 AM, TN05 wrote:
At 3/20/2016 12:08:26 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 8:15:56 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:12:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
In 1981, Mayor of Burlington, Vermont - Bernard Sanders wrote a letter to Margaret Thatcher on behalf of the Irish republican prisoners. Here it is:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk...

Any thoughts on that?

1) Why the heck was Bernie Sanders trying to involve himself in the Troubles?
2) It is no surprise that Sanders sided with left-wing terrorists here. He's done it in Cuba and Nicaragua as well.

If IRA are terrorists I guess George Washington was a terrorist also

I wasn't aware George Washington was a religious terrorist who sought to join another country, against the will of the majority in his country, and set about this by murdering innocent civilians and police officers.

Seriously, IRA apologists like yourselves are scum. Irish republicanism is a fine idea. But I'd suggest you go about that by convincing the majority of Protestants and Catholics that don't want to do it, rather than by killing them.

I don't know much about the Irish civil war, but mind giving me a basic summary?
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
TN05
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3/20/2016 1:44:48 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 12:49:04 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 3/20/2016 12:27:42 AM, TN05 wrote:
At 3/20/2016 12:08:26 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 8:15:56 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:12:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
In 1981, Mayor of Burlington, Vermont - Bernard Sanders wrote a letter to Margaret Thatcher on behalf of the Irish republican prisoners. Here it is:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk...

Any thoughts on that?

1) Why the heck was Bernie Sanders trying to involve himself in the Troubles?
2) It is no surprise that Sanders sided with left-wing terrorists here. He's done it in Cuba and Nicaragua as well.

If IRA are terrorists I guess George Washington was a terrorist also

I wasn't aware George Washington was a religious terrorist who sought to join another country, against the will of the majority in his country, and set about this by murdering innocent civilians and police officers.

Seriously, IRA apologists like yourselves are scum. Irish republicanism is a fine idea. But I'd suggest you go about that by convincing the majority of Protestants and Catholics that don't want to do it, rather than by killing them.

I don't know much about the Irish civil war, but mind giving me a basic summary?

Well, the Troubles and the Civil War are two different things. In 1918, Sinn Fein (an Irish Republican party) had a landslide victory in Ireland's parliament - they won vast majorities in every part of the country except the northeastern portion, what is now Northern Ireland. The British had severely mistreated the Irish for over a century (including the infamous potato famine, which could have been resolved through even the most basic of British aid), and they had enough. Pretty shortly after their win, the Sinn Fein government declared independence from Britain. A two-year war ensued, which resulted in Ireland, with the exception of the six northeastern counties (the ones that did not vote for Sinn Fein) becoming a dominion (a pseudo-independent state under crown rule) A two-year civil war followed in 1922-23 between the new Irish Free State, and republicans who rejected the treaty because it did not ensure complete independence and an end to monarchy. The Free State won the war, and the two opposing sides became the two main Irish political parties - Fianna Fail (which was republican) and Fine Gael (which supported the treaty). Eventually, Ireland became a fully independent republic with no links to the UK. However, Northern Ireland remained - and still does remain - part of the UK.

This was the conflict of the Troubles. With the new republic established, republicans still were not happy - they wanted all of Ireland to be part of the Republic. However, the northeastern counties remained British. Ireland itself is overwhelmingly Catholic, but Northern Ireland had a Protestant majority. The Protestants overwhelmingly reject joining the rest of Ireland, and Catholics generally were not treated as well as they should have been (and vice versa in the Irish republic). This started protests in the 60s, which escalated into violence. Eventually we get to paramilitary groups, both Protestant and Catholic - the Irish Republican Army (IRA) is the biggest by far. It is indirectly backed by the Sinn Fein political party in both Ireland and Northern Ireland (the current Sinn Fein leader, Gerry Adams, is generally regarded to have been a key leader in the IRA).

The IRA was, by every definition, a terrorist group. They murdered civilians and abducted and killed alleged informants. They conducted bombings on buildings (including the Bloody Friday bombings, which killed nine people and injured 130), with little or no warning. They directly targeted political figures - in 1978, they placed a bomb on the fishing boat of Lord Mountbatten, the great-uncle of Prince Charles. The blast killed Mountbatten, his mother, two of his teenage grandsons. Oh, and they targeted the military too - that same day, they murdered 18 British soldiers in Warrenpoint through bombs.

The IRA used violence and terror to try and force a political change. That's terrorism. They were directly connected to Sinn Fein, which currently shares power in Northern Ireland and is a major party in the republic of Ireland. The protestant paramilitaries were not much better, but never were that bad - a full 60% of the deaths in the Troubles (2,058) were due to Irish republican groups, including the IRA. Loyalists only caused half that many deaths, and British forces only 10%.

The Troubles ended with the Good Friday Agreement. The IRA was disbanded, and Sinn Fein now has a permanent power-sharing agreement in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland will only be able to secede if a majority choose it - and, seeing as 90% of Protestants and roughly half of Catholics oppose it, it won't happen ever. And Northern Ireland is a sad place - Catholics and Protestants are divided, quite literally, by walls.

tl;dr version: Irish secession from the UK was entirely justified. So were Protestants not wanting to become a religious minority. IRA are terrorists who murdered innocents and government officials. They were supported by a political party, Sinn Fein, which has strong support in Ireland and shares power in Northern Ireland. Irish republicans are scum.
Bennett91
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3/20/2016 5:06:09 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 4:12:00 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/19/2016 4:10:29 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

Again, Vietnam is no England. The situations aren't quite comparable. Regardless, this letter was more of a "you're better than this" than "we will invade your country".

No it wasn't. The letter was received as, "We are better than you."

It was more of a "FYI mistreating POWs makes you look bad". The confusion is understandable.

But of course the US is not to point fingers while Guantanamo is open.
Bennett91
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3/20/2016 5:13:04 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 8:15:56 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:12:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
In 1981, Mayor of Burlington, Vermont - Bernard Sanders wrote a letter to Margaret Thatcher on behalf of the Irish republican prisoners. Here it is:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk...

Any thoughts on that?

1) Why the heck was Bernie Sanders trying to involve himself in the Troubles?

An injustice anywhere is still an injustice. It shows that Sanders has been politically aware and aligned with left wing stances for a long time.

2) It is no surprise that Sanders sided with left-wing terrorists here. He's done it in Cuba and Nicaragua as well.

Yes terrorists who fight against US backed Dictatorships put in place by US backed "not-terrorist" coups.
BrendanD19
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3/20/2016 5:31:34 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 12:27:42 AM, TN05 wrote:
At 3/20/2016 12:08:26 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 8:15:56 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:12:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
In 1981, Mayor of Burlington, Vermont - Bernard Sanders wrote a letter to Margaret Thatcher on behalf of the Irish republican prisoners. Here it is:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk...

Any thoughts on that?

1) Why the heck was Bernie Sanders trying to involve himself in the Troubles?
2) It is no surprise that Sanders sided with left-wing terrorists here. He's done it in Cuba and Nicaragua as well.

If IRA are terrorists I guess George Washington was a terrorist also

I wasn't aware George Washington was a religious terrorist who sought to join another country, against the will of the majority in his country, and set about this by murdering innocent civilians and police officers.

Seriously, IRA apologists like yourselves are scum. Irish republicanism is a fine idea. But I'd suggest you go about that by convincing the majority of Protestants and Catholics that don't want to do it, rather than by killing them.

1) IRA was not religious. While the majority were catholic there were many secular and protestant members of the IRA as well. They had a goal that was purely political
2) Washington was fighting for freedom and many colonists were apathetic or did not support separation. And I think the British would say that he did kill innocent civilians and military authorities. IRA fought to free every inch of Irish soil for the Irish people.
3) When you say police officers I think you mean foreign occupation force and enemy combatants.
4) Why do you think the IRA signed the peace agreement and are effectively disbanded. There are dissident groups, but they are fringe groups that will never be what the IRA once was.
BrendanD19
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3/20/2016 5:34:20 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 1:44:48 AM, TN05 wrote:
At 3/20/2016 12:49:04 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 3/20/2016 12:27:42 AM, TN05 wrote:
At 3/20/2016 12:08:26 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 8:15:56 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:12:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
In 1981, Mayor of Burlington, Vermont - Bernard Sanders wrote a letter to Margaret Thatcher on behalf of the Irish republican prisoners. Here it is:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk...

Any thoughts on that?

1) Why the heck was Bernie Sanders trying to involve himself in the Troubles?
2) It is no surprise that Sanders sided with left-wing terrorists here. He's done it in Cuba and Nicaragua as well.

If IRA are terrorists I guess George Washington was a terrorist also

I wasn't aware George Washington was a religious terrorist who sought to join another country, against the will of the majority in his country, and set about this by murdering innocent civilians and police officers.

Seriously, IRA apologists like yourselves are scum. Irish republicanism is a fine idea. But I'd suggest you go about that by convincing the majority of Protestants and Catholics that don't want to do it, rather than by killing them.

I don't know much about the Irish civil war, but mind giving me a basic summary?

Well, the Troubles and the Civil War are two different things. In 1918, Sinn Fein (an Irish Republican party) had a landslide victory in Ireland's parliament - they won vast majorities in every part of the country except the northeastern portion, what is now Northern Ireland. The British had severely mistreated the Irish for over a century (including the infamous potato famine, which could have been resolved through even the most basic of British aid), and they had enough. Pretty shortly after their win, the Sinn Fein government declared independence from Britain. A two-year war ensued, which resulted in Ireland, with the exception of the six northeastern counties (the ones that did not vote for Sinn Fein) becoming a dominion (a pseudo-independent state under crown rule) A two-year civil war followed in 1922-23 between the new Irish Free State, and republicans who rejected the treaty because it did not ensure complete independence and an end to monarchy. The Free State won the war, and the two opposing sides became the two main Irish political parties - Fianna Fail (which was republican) and Fine Gael (which supported the treaty). Eventually, Ireland became a fully independent republic with no links to the UK. However, Northern Ireland remained - and still does remain - part of the UK.

This was the conflict of the Troubles. With the new republic established, republicans still were not happy - they wanted all of Ireland to be part of the Republic. However, the northeastern counties remained British. Ireland itself is overwhelmingly Catholic, but Northern Ireland had a Protestant majority. The Protestants overwhelmingly reject joining the rest of Ireland, and Catholics generally were not treated as well as they should have been (and vice versa in the Irish republic). This started protests in the 60s, which escalated into violence. Eventually we get to paramilitary groups, both Protestant and Catholic - the Irish Republican Army (IRA) is the biggest by far. It is indirectly backed by the Sinn Fein political party in both Ireland and Northern Ireland (the current Sinn Fein leader, Gerry Adams, is generally regarded to have been a key leader in the IRA).

The IRA was, by every definition, a terrorist group. They murdered civilians and abducted and killed alleged informants. They conducted bombings on buildings (including the Bloody Friday bombings, which killed nine people and injured 130), with little or no warning. They directly targeted political figures - in 1978, they placed a bomb on the fishing boat of Lord Mountbatten, the great-uncle of Prince Charles. The blast killed Mountbatten, his mother, two of his teenage grandsons. Oh, and they targeted the military too - that same day, they murdered 18 British soldiers in Warrenpoint through bombs.

The IRA used violence and terror to try and force a political change. That's terrorism. They were directly connected to Sinn Fein, which currently shares power in Northern Ireland and is a major party in the republic of Ireland. The protestant paramilitaries were not much better, but never were that bad - a full 60% of the deaths in the Troubles (2,058) were due to Irish republican groups, including the IRA. Loyalists only caused half that many deaths, and British forces only 10%.

The Troubles ended with the Good Friday Agreement. The IRA was disbanded, and Sinn Fein now has a permanent power-sharing agreement in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland will only be able to secede if a majority choose it - and, seeing as 90% of Protestants and roughly half of Catholics oppose it, it won't happen ever. And Northern Ireland is a sad place - Catholics and Protestants are divided, quite literally, by walls.

tl;dr version: Irish secession from the UK was entirely justified. So were Protestants not wanting to become a religious minority. IRA are terrorists who murdered innocents and government officials. They were supported by a political party, Sinn Fein, which has strong support in Ireland and shares power in Northern Ireland. Irish republicans are scum.

IRA were terrorists so I guess that makes the French Resistance terrorists? One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Never forget that.
The scum are those who side with the foreign occupiers and stand with injustice. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,043
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3/20/2016 5:42:03 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 1:44:48 AM, TN05 wrote:
At 3/20/2016 12:49:04 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 3/20/2016 12:27:42 AM, TN05 wrote:
At 3/20/2016 12:08:26 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 8:15:56 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 3:12:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
In 1981, Mayor of Burlington, Vermont - Bernard Sanders wrote a letter to Margaret Thatcher on behalf of the Irish republican prisoners. Here it is:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk...

Any thoughts on that?

1) Why the heck was Bernie Sanders trying to involve himself in the Troubles?
2) It is no surprise that Sanders sided with left-wing terrorists here. He's done it in Cuba and Nicaragua as well.

If IRA are terrorists I guess George Washington was a terrorist also

I wasn't aware George Washington was a religious terrorist who sought to join another country, against the will of the majority in his country, and set about this by murdering innocent civilians and police officers.

Seriously, IRA apologists like yourselves are scum. Irish republicanism is a fine idea. But I'd suggest you go about that by convincing the majority of Protestants and Catholics that don't want to do it, rather than by killing them.

I don't know much about the Irish civil war, but mind giving me a basic summary?

Well, the Troubles and the Civil War are two different things. In 1918, Sinn Fein (an Irish Republican party) had a landslide victory in Ireland's parliament - they won vast majorities in every part of the country except the northeastern portion, what is now Northern Ireland. The British had severely mistreated the Irish for over a century (including the infamous potato famine, which could have been resolved through even the most basic of British aid), and they had enough. Pretty shortly after their win, the Sinn Fein government declared independence from Britain. A two-year war ensued, which resulted in Ireland, with the exception of the six northeastern counties (the ones that did not vote for Sinn Fein) becoming a dominion (a pseudo-independent state under crown rule) A two-year civil war followed in 1922-23 between the new Irish Free State, and republicans who rejected the treaty because it did not ensure complete independence and an end to monarchy. The Free State won the war, and the two opposing sides became the two main Irish political parties - Fianna Fail (which was republican) and Fine Gael (which supported the treaty). Eventually, Ireland became a fully independent republic with no links to the UK. However, Northern Ireland remained - and still does remain - part of the UK.

This was the conflict of the Troubles. With the new republic established, republicans still were not happy - they wanted all of Ireland to be part of the Republic. However, the northeastern counties remained British. Ireland itself is overwhelmingly Catholic, but Northern Ireland had a Protestant majority. The Protestants overwhelmingly reject joining the rest of Ireland, and Catholics generally were not treated as well as they should have been (and vice versa in the Irish republic). This started protests in the 60s, which escalated into violence. Eventually we get to paramilitary groups, both Protestant and Catholic - the Irish Republican Army (IRA) is the biggest by far. It is indirectly backed by the Sinn Fein political party in both Ireland and Northern Ireland (the current Sinn Fein leader, Gerry Adams, is generally regarded to have been a key leader in the IRA).

The IRA was, by every definition, a terrorist group. They murdered civilians and abducted and killed alleged informants. They conducted bombings on buildings (including the Bloody Friday bombings, which killed nine people and injured 130), with little or no warning. They directly targeted political figures - in 1978, they placed a bomb on the fishing boat of Lord Mountbatten, the great-uncle of Prince Charles. The blast killed Mountbatten, his mother, two of his teenage grandsons. Oh, and they targeted the military too - that same day, they murdered 18 British soldiers in Warrenpoint through bombs.

The IRA used violence and terror to try and force a political change. That's terrorism. They were directly connected to Sinn Fein, which currently shares power in Northern Ireland and is a major party in the republic of Ireland. The protestant paramilitaries were not much better, but never were that bad - a full 60% of the deaths in the Troubles (2,058) were due to Irish republican groups, including the IRA. Loyalists only caused half that many deaths, and British forces only 10%.

The Troubles ended with the Good Friday Agreement. The IRA was disbanded, and Sinn Fein now has a permanent power-sharing agreement in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland will only be able to secede if a majority choose it - and, seeing as 90% of Protestants and roughly half of Catholics oppose it, it won't happen ever. And Northern Ireland is a sad place - Catholics and Protestants are divided, quite literally, by walls.

tl;dr version: Irish secession from the UK was entirely justified. So were Protestants not wanting to become a religious minority. IRA are terrorists who murdered innocents and government officials. They were supported by a political party, Sinn Fein, which has strong support in Ireland and shares power in Northern Ireland. Irish republicans are scum.

And you dare to call me a terrorist,
while you look down your guns,
When I think of all the deeds that you have done.
You have plundered many nations,
divided many lands,
You have terrorised our people,
you ruled with your iron hand,
And you brought this reign of terror to my land.

https://www.youtube.com...
YYW
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3/20/2016 6:13:47 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 3:12:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
In 1981, Mayor of Burlington, Vermont - Bernard Sanders wrote a letter to Margaret Thatcher on behalf of the Irish republican prisoners. Here it is:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk...

Any thoughts on that?

I think Margret Thatcher was what Reagan would have been if he wasn't a corpse afflicted by Alzheimer's for the entire time he was in the White House. I deeply resent what the UK was under Thatcher, and I agree that how the British government oppressed (actually oppressed, not this bullsh!t "oppression" social justice warriors talk about in the context of #blacklivesmatter, or whatever) Irish political prisoners is horrific.

But Thatcher was a pretty tame totalitarian, compared to the vile, disgusting people in the Reagan administration.