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Stronger in Europe leaflet.

autocorrect
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3/22/2016 11:50:04 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
I just got my first political leaflet on the EU referendum. Let's have a look at it. Plenty of red, white and blue - can't imagine that's an accident. Heading: 'More jobs - lower prices.' Subheading: 'Your family is better off with Britain in Europe.'

These are not unreasonable claims, however...

Inside: the facts about the EU.

Probably 4/5ths of the page is positive - good for families, good for workers, good for small businesses, good for women.
Being in Europe makes the UK safer - says top cop, and not the one being badgered to resign. So that's good.

Below that, on the remaining 1/5th of the page - what the Leave campaign have said is the whole of the Remain argument. Jobs down, petrol prices up, security at risk. In short - scare tactics. Or realistic fears? You decide!

To tell the honest truth it was wasted on me. I've already made up my mind to vote to remain part of the EU - because I think in a globalized world, we need to be part of a larger trading block, able to wield significant collective influence. That argument isn't in the leaflet - and now I look at it again, it's clearly dumbed down to a level I find quite surprising. It's not that the design is stupid at all - but that the arguments are very simplistic, and despite some sourcing - not really evidenced. Ultimately, the problem is that the leave campaign will make the same - but opposite claims - such that anyone in need of such a dumbed down version of the arguments will be no better off.
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,043
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3/23/2016 7:29:17 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/22/2016 11:50:04 AM, autocorrect wrote:

I'd need to see the leaflet, if you can find a pic or post one that would be great but here are the reasons I support the UK staying in Europe.
1) EU agreements have improved Britain's environmental protections and helped the environment
2) EU has added worker protections and anti-discrimination rules that are not existent in British law.
3) It is easier to tackle cross border tax dodging inside the EU
4) In the era of Globalization, it is vital that there are cross border rules regulating corporations.
5) Because the Human Rights Act would be under greater threat if the UK were to leave the EU.
6) The issue of Ireland and that it would severly hurt the UK-Ireland relationship
7) While the EU does have MANY problems, almost all stemming from the lack of democracy in Brussels, the UK cannot change Europe from the outside.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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3/23/2016 8:11:41 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/22/2016 11:50:04 AM, autocorrect wrote:
I just got my first political leaflet on the EU referendum. Let's have a look at it. Plenty of red, white and blue - can't imagine that's an accident. Heading: 'More jobs - lower prices.' Subheading: 'Your family is better off with Britain in Europe.'

These are not unreasonable claims, however...

Inside: the facts about the EU.

Probably 4/5ths of the page is positive - good for families, good for workers, good for small businesses, good for women.
Being in Europe makes the UK safer - says top cop, and not the one being badgered to resign. So that's good.

Below that, on the remaining 1/5th of the page - what the Leave campaign have said is the whole of the Remain argument. Jobs down, petrol prices up, security at risk. In short - scare tactics. Or realistic fears? You decide!

To tell the honest truth it was wasted on me. I've already made up my mind to vote to remain part of the EU - because I think in a globalized world, we need to be part of a larger trading block, able to wield significant collective influence. That argument isn't in the leaflet - and now I look at it again, it's clearly dumbed down to a level I find quite surprising. It's not that the design is stupid at all - but that the arguments are very simplistic, and despite some sourcing - not really evidenced. Ultimately, the problem is that the leave campaign will make the same - but opposite claims - such that anyone in need of such a dumbed down version of the arguments will be no better off.

What are your thoughts on membership tying your people to possibly undesired immigration laws?
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
autocorrect
Posts: 432
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3/24/2016 5:09:14 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/23/2016 7:29:17 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 11:50:04 AM, autocorrect wrote:

I'd need to see the leaflet, if you can find a pic or post one that would be great but here are the reasons I support the UK staying in Europe.
1) EU agreements have improved Britain's environmental protections and helped the environment
2) EU has added worker protections and anti-discrimination rules that are not existent in British law.
3) It is easier to tackle cross border tax dodging inside the EU
4) In the era of Globalization, it is vital that there are cross border rules regulating corporations.
5) Because the Human Rights Act would be under greater threat if the UK were to leave the EU.
6) The issue of Ireland and that it would severly hurt the UK-Ireland relationship
7) While the EU does have MANY problems, almost all stemming from the lack of democracy in Brussels, the UK cannot change Europe from the outside.

Thanks for the reply, and your list of reasons to remain. Sadly, I suspect, these are not the strongest arguments to sway the kind of person who wants to leave the EU. I may be generalizing improperly - but the environment, human rights, regulating big businesses and so on, are more likely valued by Labour voting, Guardian reading, flabby liberals - who're already pro-eu. What we have to worry about are jingoistic, barely literate, Sun reading, UKIP voting former BNP members... (Tee-hee!)

How are we going to persuade them that it is in Britain's best interest to remain part of the EU?
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,043
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3/24/2016 5:50:53 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/24/2016 5:09:14 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/23/2016 7:29:17 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 11:50:04 AM, autocorrect wrote:

I'd need to see the leaflet, if you can find a pic or post one that would be great but here are the reasons I support the UK staying in Europe.
1) EU agreements have improved Britain's environmental protections and helped the environment
2) EU has added worker protections and anti-discrimination rules that are not existent in British law.
3) It is easier to tackle cross border tax dodging inside the EU
4) In the era of Globalization, it is vital that there are cross border rules regulating corporations.
5) Because the Human Rights Act would be under greater threat if the UK were to leave the EU.
6) The issue of Ireland and that it would severly hurt the UK-Ireland relationship
7) While the EU does have MANY problems, almost all stemming from the lack of democracy in Brussels, the UK cannot change Europe from the outside.

Thanks for the reply, and your list of reasons to remain. Sadly, I suspect, these are not the strongest arguments to sway the kind of person who wants to leave the EU. I may be generalizing improperly - but the environment, human rights, regulating big businesses and so on, are more likely valued by Labour voting, Guardian reading, flabby liberals - who're already pro-eu. What we have to worry about are jingoistic, barely literate, Sun reading, UKIP voting former BNP members... (Tee-hee!)

How are we going to persuade them that it is in Britain's best interest to remain part of the EU?

Well it was really meant for Anti-Austerity leftists who are voting to leave, ie members of RMT, Respect and TUSC
autocorrect
Posts: 432
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3/24/2016 5:55:04 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/23/2016 8:11:41 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/22/2016 11:50:04 AM, autocorrect wrote:
I just got my first political leaflet on the EU referendum. Let's have a look at it. Plenty of red, white and blue - can't imagine that's an accident. Heading: 'More jobs - lower prices.' Subheading: 'Your family is better off with Britain in Europe.'

These are not unreasonable claims, however...

Inside: the facts about the EU.

Probably 4/5ths of the page is positive - good for families, good for workers, good for small businesses, good for women.
Being in Europe makes the UK safer - says top cop, and not the one being badgered to resign. So that's good.

Below that, on the remaining 1/5th of the page - what the Leave campaign have said is the whole of the Remain argument. Jobs down, petrol prices up, security at risk. In short - scare tactics. Or realistic fears? You decide!

To tell the honest truth it was wasted on me. I've already made up my mind to vote to remain part of the EU - because I think in a globalized world, we need to be part of a larger trading block, able to wield significant collective influence. That argument isn't in the leaflet - and now I look at it again, it's clearly dumbed down to a level I find quite surprising. It's not that the design is stupid at all - but that the arguments are very simplistic, and despite some sourcing - not really evidenced. Ultimately, the problem is that the leave campaign will make the same - but opposite claims - such that anyone in need of such a dumbed down version of the arguments will be no better off.

What are your thoughts on membership tying your people to possibly undesired immigration laws?

The question you've asked is enormously difficult to answer - because there's the Schengen agreement, the UK and Ireland opt out from various parts of the agreement, the free movement of labour, the migrant crisis and terrorism - and other complicating factors to consider. However, generally I believe that isolationism is so inherently bad - I would be willing to risk a great deal to maintain a spirit of openness to the world. Because once those borders go up; they don't just act as barriers to the free movement of people - but as barriers to trade, information and cooperation. They become political barriers and in the worst case, fortifications from behind which to conduct the war.
autocorrect
Posts: 432
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3/24/2016 6:22:45 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/24/2016 5:50:53 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:09:14 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/23/2016 7:29:17 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 11:50:04 AM, autocorrect wrote:

I'd need to see the leaflet, if you can find a pic or post one that would be great but here are the reasons I support the UK staying in Europe.
1) EU agreements have improved Britain's environmental protections and helped the environment
2) EU has added worker protections and anti-discrimination rules that are not existent in British law.
3) It is easier to tackle cross border tax dodging inside the EU
4) In the era of Globalization, it is vital that there are cross border rules regulating corporations.
5) Because the Human Rights Act would be under greater threat if the UK were to leave the EU.
6) The issue of Ireland and that it would severly hurt the UK-Ireland relationship
7) While the EU does have MANY problems, almost all stemming from the lack of democracy in Brussels, the UK cannot change Europe from the outside.

Thanks for the reply, and your list of reasons to remain. Sadly, I suspect, these are not the strongest arguments to sway the kind of person who wants to leave the EU. I may be generalizing improperly - but the environment, human rights, regulating big businesses and so on, are more likely valued by Labour voting, Guardian reading, flabby liberals - who're already pro-eu. What we have to worry about are jingoistic, barely literate, Sun reading, UKIP voting former BNP members... (Tee-hee!)

How are we going to persuade them that it is in Britain's best interest to remain part of the EU?

Well it was really meant for Anti-Austerity leftists who are voting to leave, ie members of RMT, Respect and TUSC

The left is all over the place these days. It's a real crisis, brought on, I would argue Labour's pursuit of a politically correct agenda, in contraction to the interests of the working people the Labour movement was originally set up to represent. So, for fear of appearing racist - Labour couldn't oppose immigration - to the eventual ire of the unions, who are much closer to the actual labourers, metropolitain elites imagine they share values with. But my father used to say, unions aside, there's no-one more conservative than the working man. Now Labour is in trouble - and Corbyn isn't getting to the heart of the problem. I believe his official position is to remain, but it doesn't surprise me the unions want to leave.
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,043
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3/24/2016 2:44:10 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/24/2016 6:22:45 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:50:53 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:09:14 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/23/2016 7:29:17 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 11:50:04 AM, autocorrect wrote:

I'd need to see the leaflet, if you can find a pic or post one that would be great but here are the reasons I support the UK staying in Europe.
1) EU agreements have improved Britain's environmental protections and helped the environment
2) EU has added worker protections and anti-discrimination rules that are not existent in British law.
3) It is easier to tackle cross border tax dodging inside the EU
4) In the era of Globalization, it is vital that there are cross border rules regulating corporations.
5) Because the Human Rights Act would be under greater threat if the UK were to leave the EU.
6) The issue of Ireland and that it would severly hurt the UK-Ireland relationship
7) While the EU does have MANY problems, almost all stemming from the lack of democracy in Brussels, the UK cannot change Europe from the outside.

Thanks for the reply, and your list of reasons to remain. Sadly, I suspect, these are not the strongest arguments to sway the kind of person who wants to leave the EU. I may be generalizing improperly - but the environment, human rights, regulating big businesses and so on, are more likely valued by Labour voting, Guardian reading, flabby liberals - who're already pro-eu. What we have to worry about are jingoistic, barely literate, Sun reading, UKIP voting former BNP members... (Tee-hee!)

How are we going to persuade them that it is in Britain's best interest to remain part of the EU?

Well it was really meant for Anti-Austerity leftists who are voting to leave, ie members of RMT, Respect and TUSC

The left is all over the place these days. It's a real crisis, brought on, I would argue Labour's pursuit of a politically correct agenda, in contraction to the interests of the working people the Labour movement was originally set up to represent. So, for fear of appearing racist - Labour couldn't oppose immigration - to the eventual ire of the unions, who are much closer to the actual labourers, metropolitain elites imagine they share values with. But my father used to say, unions aside, there's no-one more conservative than the working man. Now Labour is in trouble - and Corbyn isn't getting to the heart of the problem. I believe his official position is to remain, but it doesn't surprise me the unions want to leave.

Well only RMT have endorsed leaving.
I don't think the working people in the UK, or in the US for that matter, are really conservative. To quote Rosa Luxemburg, "Those who do not move, do not notice their chains." Since Thatcher gutted the unions and the rise of New Labour, working people have really been left without a voice, thats why now they are turning to parties like the Greens, SNP and UKIP, and previously to parties like BNP and Respect. These parties provided clear alternatives to major parties which only became more and more alike. Those who didn't vote for an alternative party just went back and forth with the same two parties, thinking, well at least their better than the other one, or they didn't bother to vote at all.
Corbyn is a breath of fresh air to many working people in my view, as he represents a clear alternative to the Tories.
autocorrect
Posts: 432
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3/24/2016 5:23:15 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/24/2016 2:44:10 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 6:22:45 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:50:53 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:09:14 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/23/2016 7:29:17 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 11:50:04 AM, autocorrect wrote:

I'd need to see the leaflet, if you can find a pic or post one that would be great but here are the reasons I support the UK staying in Europe.
1) EU agreements have improved Britain's environmental protections and helped the environment
2) EU has added worker protections and anti-discrimination rules that are not existent in British law.
3) It is easier to tackle cross border tax dodging inside the EU
4) In the era of Globalization, it is vital that there are cross border rules regulating corporations.
5) Because the Human Rights Act would be under greater threat if the UK were to leave the EU.
6) The issue of Ireland and that it would severly hurt the UK-Ireland relationship
7) While the EU does have MANY problems, almost all stemming from the lack of democracy in Brussels, the UK cannot change Europe from the outside.

Thanks for the reply, and your list of reasons to remain. Sadly, I suspect, these are not the strongest arguments to sway the kind of person who wants to leave the EU. I may be generalizing improperly - but the environment, human rights, regulating big businesses and so on, are more likely valued by Labour voting, Guardian reading, flabby liberals - who're already pro-eu. What we have to worry about are jingoistic, barely literate, Sun reading, UKIP voting former BNP members... (Tee-hee!)

How are we going to persuade them that it is in Britain's best interest to remain part of the EU?

Well it was really meant for Anti-Austerity leftists who are voting to leave, ie members of RMT, Respect and TUSC

The left is all over the place these days. It's a real crisis, brought on, I would argue Labour's pursuit of a politically correct agenda, in contraction to the interests of the working people the Labour movement was originally set up to represent. So, for fear of appearing racist - Labour couldn't oppose immigration - to the eventual ire of the unions, who are much closer to the actual labourers, metropolitain elites imagine they share values with. But my father used to say, unions aside, there's no-one more conservative than the working man. Now Labour is in trouble - and Corbyn isn't getting to the heart of the problem. I believe his official position is to remain, but it doesn't surprise me the unions want to leave.

Well only RMT have endorsed leaving.
I don't think the working people in the UK, or in the US for that matter, are really conservative. To quote Rosa Luxemburg, "Those who do not move, do not notice their chains." Since Thatcher gutted the unions and the rise of New Labour, working people have really been left without a voice, thats why now they are turning to parties like the Greens, SNP and UKIP, and previously to parties like BNP and Respect. These parties provided clear alternatives to major parties which only became more and more alike. Those who didn't vote for an alternative party just went back and forth with the same two parties, thinking, well at least their better than the other one, or they didn't bother to vote at all.
Corbyn is a breath of fresh air to many working people in my view, as he represents a clear alternative to the Tories.

I like the quote but disagree. I think the fact that working people are conservative at heart is proven by the prevalence of the 'welfare scroungers' meme, or the success of right to buy - to the detriment of council and social housing. But I'm torn over Thatchers approach to the unions. Union power was massively abused in the 1970's - and we couldn't carry on like that.
Impressively, the Conservatives are resisting an equal and opposite rightward drift - even as the Labour Party have gone screeching off to the left, because of this middle ground problem - but I suspect the solution is worse than the problem; that working people have no voice. Certainly, there are major issues - like housing, that need urgent attention, but I don't see the same kind of serious poverty or gross exploitation of workers that inspired the Labour movement 100 years ago.
I'll stand to be corrected, but I very much doubt extreme left will be more attractive to voters than left of center. I view Corbyn as political sorbet - cleansing the palate before the next course; but eventually, Labour will be forced back to the middle, to fight on grounds of competent management - surely!?
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,043
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3/24/2016 5:35:31 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/24/2016 5:23:15 PM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 2:44:10 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 6:22:45 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:50:53 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:09:14 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/23/2016 7:29:17 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 11:50:04 AM, autocorrect wrote:

I'd need to see the leaflet, if you can find a pic or post one that would be great but here are the reasons I support the UK staying in Europe.
1) EU agreements have improved Britain's environmental protections and helped the environment
2) EU has added worker protections and anti-discrimination rules that are not existent in British law.
3) It is easier to tackle cross border tax dodging inside the EU
4) In the era of Globalization, it is vital that there are cross border rules regulating corporations.
5) Because the Human Rights Act would be under greater threat if the UK were to leave the EU.
6) The issue of Ireland and that it would severly hurt the UK-Ireland relationship
7) While the EU does have MANY problems, almost all stemming from the lack of democracy in Brussels, the UK cannot change Europe from the outside.

Thanks for the reply, and your list of reasons to remain. Sadly, I suspect, these are not the strongest arguments to sway the kind of person who wants to leave the EU. I may be generalizing improperly - but the environment, human rights, regulating big businesses and so on, are more likely valued by Labour voting, Guardian reading, flabby liberals - who're already pro-eu. What we have to worry about are jingoistic, barely literate, Sun reading, UKIP voting former BNP members... (Tee-hee!)

How are we going to persuade them that it is in Britain's best interest to remain part of the EU?

Well it was really meant for Anti-Austerity leftists who are voting to leave, ie members of RMT, Respect and TUSC

The left is all over the place these days. It's a real crisis, brought on, I would argue Labour's pursuit of a politically correct agenda, in contraction to the interests of the working people the Labour movement was originally set up to represent. So, for fear of appearing racist - Labour couldn't oppose immigration - to the eventual ire of the unions, who are much closer to the actual labourers, metropolitain elites imagine they share values with. But my father used to say, unions aside, there's no-one more conservative than the working man. Now Labour is in trouble - and Corbyn isn't getting to the heart of the problem. I believe his official position is to remain, but it doesn't surprise me the unions want to leave.

Well only RMT have endorsed leaving.
I don't think the working people in the UK, or in the US for that matter, are really conservative. To quote Rosa Luxemburg, "Those who do not move, do not notice their chains." Since Thatcher gutted the unions and the rise of New Labour, working people have really been left without a voice, thats why now they are turning to parties like the Greens, SNP and UKIP, and previously to parties like BNP and Respect. These parties provided clear alternatives to major parties which only became more and more alike. Those who didn't vote for an alternative party just went back and forth with the same two parties, thinking, well at least their better than the other one, or they didn't bother to vote at all.
Corbyn is a breath of fresh air to many working people in my view, as he represents a clear alternative to the Tories.

I like the quote but disagree. I think the fact that working people are conservative at heart is proven by the prevalence of the 'welfare scroungers' meme, or the success of right to buy - to the detriment of council and social housing. But I'm torn over Thatchers approach to the unions. Union power was massively abused in the 1970's - and we couldn't carry on like that.
Impressively, the Conservatives are resisting an equal and opposite rightward drift - even as the Labour Party have gone screeching off to the left, because of this middle ground problem - but I suspect the solution is worse than the problem; that working people have no voice. Certainly, there are major issues - like housing, that need urgent attention, but I don't see the same kind of serious poverty or gross exploitation of workers that inspired the Labour movement 100 years ago.
I'll stand to be corrected, but I very much doubt extreme left will be more attractive to voters than left of center. I view Corbyn as political sorbet - cleansing the palate before the next course; but eventually, Labour will be forced back to the middle, to fight on grounds of competent management - surely!?

"Screeching to the left"? Labour has bee moving rightwards until about 6 months ago
autocorrect
Posts: 432
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3/24/2016 5:48:16 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/24/2016 5:35:31 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:23:15 PM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 2:44:10 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 6:22:45 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:50:53 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:09:14 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/23/2016 7:29:17 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 11:50:04 AM, autocorrect wrote:

I'd need to see the leaflet, if you can find a pic or post one that would be great but here are the reasons I support the UK staying in Europe.
1) EU agreements have improved Britain's environmental protections and helped the environment
2) EU has added worker protections and anti-discrimination rules that are not existent in British law.
3) It is easier to tackle cross border tax dodging inside the EU
4) In the era of Globalization, it is vital that there are cross border rules regulating corporations.
5) Because the Human Rights Act would be under greater threat if the UK were to leave the EU.
6) The issue of Ireland and that it would severly hurt the UK-Ireland relationship
7) While the EU does have MANY problems, almost all stemming from the lack of democracy in Brussels, the UK cannot change Europe from the outside.

Thanks for the reply, and your list of reasons to remain. Sadly, I suspect, these are not the strongest arguments to sway the kind of person who wants to leave the EU. I may be generalizing improperly - but the environment, human rights, regulating big businesses and so on, are more likely valued by Labour voting, Guardian reading, flabby liberals - who're already pro-eu. What we have to worry about are jingoistic, barely literate, Sun reading, UKIP voting former BNP members... (Tee-hee!)

How are we going to persuade them that it is in Britain's best interest to remain part of the EU?

Well it was really meant for Anti-Austerity leftists who are voting to leave, ie members of RMT, Respect and TUSC

The left is all over the place these days. It's a real crisis, brought on, I would argue Labour's pursuit of a politically correct agenda, in contraction to the interests of the working people the Labour movement was originally set up to represent. So, for fear of appearing racist - Labour couldn't oppose immigration - to the eventual ire of the unions, who are much closer to the actual labourers, metropolitain elites imagine they share values with. But my father used to say, unions aside, there's no-one more conservative than the working man. Now Labour is in trouble - and Corbyn isn't getting to the heart of the problem. I believe his official position is to remain, but it doesn't surprise me the unions want to leave.

Well only RMT have endorsed leaving.
I don't think the working people in the UK, or in the US for that matter, are really conservative. To quote Rosa Luxemburg, "Those who do not move, do not notice their chains." Since Thatcher gutted the unions and the rise of New Labour, working people have really been left without a voice, thats why now they are turning to parties like the Greens, SNP and UKIP, and previously to parties like BNP and Respect. These parties provided clear alternatives to major parties which only became more and more alike. Those who didn't vote for an alternative party just went back and forth with the same two parties, thinking, well at least their better than the other one, or they didn't bother to vote at all.
Corbyn is a breath of fresh air to many working people in my view, as he represents a clear alternative to the Tories.

I like the quote but disagree. I think the fact that working people are conservative at heart is proven by the prevalence of the 'welfare scroungers' meme, or the success of right to buy - to the detriment of council and social housing. But I'm torn over Thatchers approach to the unions. Union power was massively abused in the 1970's - and we couldn't carry on like that.
Impressively, the Conservatives are resisting an equal and opposite rightward drift - even as the Labour Party have gone screeching off to the left, because of this middle ground problem - but I suspect the solution is worse than the problem; that working people have no voice. Certainly, there are major issues - like housing, that need urgent attention, but I don't see the same kind of serious poverty or gross exploitation of workers that inspired the Labour movement 100 years ago.
I'll stand to be corrected, but I very much doubt extreme left will be more attractive to voters than left of center. I view Corbyn as political sorbet - cleansing the palate before the next course; but eventually, Labour will be forced back to the middle, to fight on grounds of competent management - surely!?

"Screeching to the left"? Labour has bee moving rightwards until about 6 months ago

The world is moving rightwards since the fall of communism, and in the context of globalization. That's the realpolitik wallpaper. Voting for Corbyn as leader is screeching off to the far left. He was only voted in as leader because the far left of the Labour Party membership are unrepresentatively influential as a block - relative to the majority of middle ground voters divided between a variety of more moderate candidates.
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,043
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3/24/2016 6:00:11 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/24/2016 5:48:16 PM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:35:31 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:23:15 PM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 2:44:10 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 6:22:45 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:50:53 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:09:14 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/23/2016 7:29:17 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 11:50:04 AM, autocorrect wrote:

I'd need to see the leaflet, if you can find a pic or post one that would be great but here are the reasons I support the UK staying in Europe.
1) EU agreements have improved Britain's environmental protections and helped the environment
2) EU has added worker protections and anti-discrimination rules that are not existent in British law.
3) It is easier to tackle cross border tax dodging inside the EU
4) In the era of Globalization, it is vital that there are cross border rules regulating corporations.
5) Because the Human Rights Act would be under greater threat if the UK were to leave the EU.
6) The issue of Ireland and that it would severly hurt the UK-Ireland relationship
7) While the EU does have MANY problems, almost all stemming from the lack of democracy in Brussels, the UK cannot change Europe from the outside.

Thanks for the reply, and your list of reasons to remain. Sadly, I suspect, these are not the strongest arguments to sway the kind of person who wants to leave the EU. I may be generalizing improperly - but the environment, human rights, regulating big businesses and so on, are more likely valued by Labour voting, Guardian reading, flabby liberals - who're already pro-eu. What we have to worry about are jingoistic, barely literate, Sun reading, UKIP voting former BNP members... (Tee-hee!)

How are we going to persuade them that it is in Britain's best interest to remain part of the EU?

Well it was really meant for Anti-Austerity leftists who are voting to leave, ie members of RMT, Respect and TUSC

The left is all over the place these days. It's a real crisis, brought on, I would argue Labour's pursuit of a politically correct agenda, in contraction to the interests of the working people the Labour movement was originally set up to represent. So, for fear of appearing racist - Labour couldn't oppose immigration - to the eventual ire of the unions, who are much closer to the actual labourers, metropolitain elites imagine they share values with. But my father used to say, unions aside, there's no-one more conservative than the working man. Now Labour is in trouble - and Corbyn isn't getting to the heart of the problem. I believe his official position is to remain, but it doesn't surprise me the unions want to leave.

Well only RMT have endorsed leaving.
I don't think the working people in the UK, or in the US for that matter, are really conservative. To quote Rosa Luxemburg, "Those who do not move, do not notice their chains." Since Thatcher gutted the unions and the rise of New Labour, working people have really been left without a voice, thats why now they are turning to parties like the Greens, SNP and UKIP, and previously to parties like BNP and Respect. These parties provided clear alternatives to major parties which only became more and more alike. Those who didn't vote for an alternative party just went back and forth with the same two parties, thinking, well at least their better than the other one, or they didn't bother to vote at all.
Corbyn is a breath of fresh air to many working people in my view, as he represents a clear alternative to the Tories.

I like the quote but disagree. I think the fact that working people are conservative at heart is proven by the prevalence of the 'welfare scroungers' meme, or the success of right to buy - to the detriment of council and social housing. But I'm torn over Thatchers approach to the unions. Union power was massively abused in the 1970's - and we couldn't carry on like that.
Impressively, the Conservatives are resisting an equal and opposite rightward drift - even as the Labour Party have gone screeching off to the left, because of this middle ground problem - but I suspect the solution is worse than the problem; that working people have no voice. Certainly, there are major issues - like housing, that need urgent attention, but I don't see the same kind of serious poverty or gross exploitation of workers that inspired the Labour movement 100 years ago.
I'll stand to be corrected, but I very much doubt extreme left will be more attractive to voters than left of center. I view Corbyn as political sorbet - cleansing the palate before the next course; but eventually, Labour will be forced back to the middle, to fight on grounds of competent management - surely!?

"Screeching to the left"? Labour has bee moving rightwards until about 6 months ago

The world is moving rightwards since the fall of communism, and in the context of globalization. That's the realpolitik wallpaper. Voting for Corbyn as leader is screeching off to the far left. He was only voted in as leader because the far left of the Labour Party membership are unrepresentatively influential as a block - relative to the majority of middle ground voters divided between a variety of more moderate candidates.

You do realize that the Labour Party doesn't use plurality voting? They use IRV and the spoiler effect doesn't exist in that.
Labour party members wanted a progressive alternative to the tories. They realized they weren't winning by appealing to the middle, they would win by presenting a clear alternative.
autocorrect
Posts: 432
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3/24/2016 6:53:55 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/24/2016 6:00:11 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:48:16 PM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:35:31 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:23:15 PM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 2:44:10 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 6:22:45 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:50:53 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:09:14 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/23/2016 7:29:17 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 11:50:04 AM, autocorrect wrote:

I'd need to see the leaflet, if you can find a pic or post one that would be great but here are the reasons I support the UK staying in Europe.
1) EU agreements have improved Britain's environmental protections and helped the environment
2) EU has added worker protections and anti-discrimination rules that are not existent in British law.
3) It is easier to tackle cross border tax dodging inside the EU
4) In the era of Globalization, it is vital that there are cross border rules regulating corporations.
5) Because the Human Rights Act would be under greater threat if the UK were to leave the EU.
6) The issue of Ireland and that it would severly hurt the UK-Ireland relationship
7) While the EU does have MANY problems, almost all stemming from the lack of democracy in Brussels, the UK cannot change Europe from the outside.

Thanks for the reply, and your list of reasons to remain. Sadly, I suspect, these are not the strongest arguments to sway the kind of person who wants to leave the EU. I may be generalizing improperly - but the environment, human rights, regulating big businesses and so on, are more likely valued by Labour voting, Guardian reading, flabby liberals - who're already pro-eu. What we have to worry about are jingoistic, barely literate, Sun reading, UKIP voting former BNP members... (Tee-hee!)

How are we going to persuade them that it is in Britain's best interest to remain part of the EU?

Well it was really meant for Anti-Austerity leftists who are voting to leave, ie members of RMT, Respect and TUSC

The left is all over the place these days. It's a real crisis, brought on, I would argue Labour's pursuit of a politically correct agenda, in contraction to the interests of the working people the Labour movement was originally set up to represent. So, for fear of appearing racist - Labour couldn't oppose immigration - to the eventual ire of the unions, who are much closer to the actual labourers, metropolitain elites imagine they share values with. But my father used to say, unions aside, there's no-one more conservative than the working man. Now Labour is in trouble - and Corbyn isn't getting to the heart of the problem. I believe his official position is to remain, but it doesn't surprise me the unions want to leave.

Well only RMT have endorsed leaving.
I don't think the working people in the UK, or in the US for that matter, are really conservative. To quote Rosa Luxemburg, "Those who do not move, do not notice their chains." Since Thatcher gutted the unions and the rise of New Labour, working people have really been left without a voice, thats why now they are turning to parties like the Greens, SNP and UKIP, and previously to parties like BNP and Respect. These parties provided clear alternatives to major parties which only became more and more alike. Those who didn't vote for an alternative party just went back and forth with the same two parties, thinking, well at least their better than the other one, or they didn't bother to vote at all.
Corbyn is a breath of fresh air to many working people in my view, as he represents a clear alternative to the Tories.

I like the quote but disagree. I think the fact that working people are conservative at heart is proven by the prevalence of the 'welfare scroungers' meme, or the success of right to buy - to the detriment of council and social housing. But I'm torn over Thatchers approach to the unions. Union power was massively abused in the 1970's - and we couldn't carry on like that.
Impressively, the Conservatives are resisting an equal and opposite rightward drift - even as the Labour Party have gone screeching off to the left, because of this middle ground problem - but I suspect the solution is worse than the problem; that working people have no voice. Certainly, there are major issues - like housing, that need urgent attention, but I don't see the same kind of serious poverty or gross exploitation of workers that inspired the Labour movement 100 years ago.
I'll stand to be corrected, but I very much doubt extreme left will be more attractive to voters than left of center. I view Corbyn as political sorbet - cleansing the palate before the next course; but eventually, Labour will be forced back to the middle, to fight on grounds of competent management - surely!?

"Screeching to the left"? Labour has bee moving rightwards until about 6 months ago

The world is moving rightwards since the fall of communism, and in the context of globalization. That's the realpolitik wallpaper. Voting for Corbyn as leader is screeching off to the far left. He was only voted in as leader because the far left of the Labour Party membership are unrepresentatively influential as a block - relative to the majority of middle ground voters divided between a variety of more moderate candidates.

You do realize that the Labour Party doesn't use plurality voting? They use IRV and the spoiler effect doesn't exist in that.
Labour party members wanted a progressive alternative to the tories. They realized they weren't winning by appealing to the middle, they would win by presenting a clear alternative.

I was vaguely aware of the fact, but I didn't suggest it was a spoiler effect as such. There's a sizeable far-left minority within the labour party membership; and they were the most coherent group; or largest minority relative to a very divided middle ground majority. Under such circumstances, ARV will not save the divided majority from the vocal minority - particularly if the minority candidate isn't expected to win, and hoovers up second preference votes members were trying to spoil - in order to favour their candidate relative to middle ground contenders.
It was a shock to all when he won, right? I mean, I didn't dream that? Did I? Maybe Corbyn is the leader Labour wants. One thing for sure, it's the leader they've got - so may as-well get behind him.
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,043
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3/24/2016 7:04:01 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/24/2016 6:53:55 PM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 6:00:11 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:48:16 PM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:35:31 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:23:15 PM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 2:44:10 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 6:22:45 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:50:53 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:09:14 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/23/2016 7:29:17 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 11:50:04 AM, autocorrect wrote:

I'd need to see the leaflet, if you can find a pic or post one that would be great but here are the reasons I support the UK staying in Europe.
1) EU agreements have improved Britain's environmental protections and helped the environment
2) EU has added worker protections and anti-discrimination rules that are not existent in British law.
3) It is easier to tackle cross border tax dodging inside the EU
4) In the era of Globalization, it is vital that there are cross border rules regulating corporations.
5) Because the Human Rights Act would be under greater threat if the UK were to leave the EU.
6) The issue of Ireland and that it would severly hurt the UK-Ireland relationship
7) While the EU does have MANY problems, almost all stemming from the lack of democracy in Brussels, the UK cannot change Europe from the outside.

Thanks for the reply, and your list of reasons to remain. Sadly, I suspect, these are not the strongest arguments to sway the kind of person who wants to leave the EU. I may be generalizing improperly - but the environment, human rights, regulating big businesses and so on, are more likely valued by Labour voting, Guardian reading, flabby liberals - who're already pro-eu. What we have to worry about are jingoistic, barely literate, Sun reading, UKIP voting former BNP members... (Tee-hee!)

How are we going to persuade them that it is in Britain's best interest to remain part of the EU?

Well it was really meant for Anti-Austerity leftists who are voting to leave, ie members of RMT, Respect and TUSC

The left is all over the place these days. It's a real crisis, brought on, I would argue Labour's pursuit of a politically correct agenda, in contraction to the interests of the working people the Labour movement was originally set up to represent. So, for fear of appearing racist - Labour couldn't oppose immigration - to the eventual ire of the unions, who are much closer to the actual labourers, metropolitain elites imagine they share values with. But my father used to say, unions aside, there's no-one more conservative than the working man. Now Labour is in trouble - and Corbyn isn't getting to the heart of the problem. I believe his official position is to remain, but it doesn't surprise me the unions want to leave.

Well only RMT have endorsed leaving.
I don't think the working people in the UK, or in the US for that matter, are really conservative. To quote Rosa Luxemburg, "Those who do not move, do not notice their chains." Since Thatcher gutted the unions and the rise of New Labour, working people have really been left without a voice, thats why now they are turning to parties like the Greens, SNP and UKIP, and previously to parties like BNP and Respect. These parties provided clear alternatives to major parties which only became more and more alike. Those who didn't vote for an alternative party just went back and forth with the same two parties, thinking, well at least their better than the other one, or they didn't bother to vote at all.
Corbyn is a breath of fresh air to many working people in my view, as he represents a clear alternative to the Tories.

I like the quote but disagree. I think the fact that working people are conservative at heart is proven by the prevalence of the 'welfare scroungers' meme, or the success of right to buy - to the detriment of council and social housing. But I'm torn over Thatchers approach to the unions. Union power was massively abused in the 1970's - and we couldn't carry on like that.
Impressively, the Conservatives are resisting an equal and opposite rightward drift - even as the Labour Party have gone screeching off to the left, because of this middle ground problem - but I suspect the solution is worse than the problem; that working people have no voice. Certainly, there are major issues - like housing, that need urgent attention, but I don't see the same kind of serious poverty or gross exploitation of workers that inspired the Labour movement 100 years ago.
I'll stand to be corrected, but I very much doubt extreme left will be more attractive to voters than left of center. I view Corbyn as political sorbet - cleansing the palate before the next course; but eventually, Labour will be forced back to the middle, to fight on grounds of competent management - surely!?

"Screeching to the left"? Labour has bee moving rightwards until about 6 months ago

The world is moving rightwards since the fall of communism, and in the context of globalization. That's the realpolitik wallpaper. Voting for Corbyn as leader is screeching off to the far left. He was only voted in as leader because the far left of the Labour Party membership are unrepresentatively influential as a block - relative to the majority of middle ground voters divided between a variety of more moderate candidates.

You do realize that the Labour Party doesn't use plurality voting? They use IRV and the spoiler effect doesn't exist in that.
Labour party members wanted a progressive alternative to the tories. They realized they weren't winning by appealing to the middle, they would win by presenting a clear alternative.

I was vaguely aware of the fact, but I didn't suggest it was a spoiler effect as such. There's a sizeable far-left minority within the labour party membership; and they were the most coherent group; or largest minority relative to a very divided middle ground majority. Under such circumstances, ARV will not save the divided majority from the vocal minority - particularly if the minority candidate isn't expected to win, and hoovers up second preference votes members were trying to spoil - in order to favour their candidate relative to middle ground contenders.
It was a shock to all when he won, right? I mean, I didn't dream that? Did I? Maybe Corbyn is the leader Labour wants. One thing for sure, it's the leader they've got - so may as-well get behind him.

Not a huge shock that he won, but it was a surprise by the majority he won. He had been the Front Runner since the start of August, but many polls suggested there would be several ballots. When he won with a 59% majority on the first count, it was a surprise he had pulled off such a landslide.
autocorrect
Posts: 432
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3/24/2016 7:15:46 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/24/2016 7:04:01 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 6:53:55 PM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 6:00:11 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:48:16 PM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:35:31 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:23:15 PM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 2:44:10 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 6:22:45 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:50:53 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:09:14 AM, autocorrect wrote:
At 3/23/2016 7:29:17 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 11:50:04 AM, autocorrect wrote:

I'd need to see the leaflet, if you can find a pic or post one that would be great but here are the reasons I support the UK staying in Europe.
1) EU agreements have improved Britain's environmental protections and helped the environment
2) EU has added worker protections and anti-discrimination rules that are not existent in British law.
3) It is easier to tackle cross border tax dodging inside the EU
4) In the era of Globalization, it is vital that there are cross border rules regulating corporations.
5) Because the Human Rights Act would be under greater threat if the UK were to leave the EU.
6) The issue of Ireland and that it would severly hurt the UK-Ireland relationship
7) While the EU does have MANY problems, almost all stemming from the lack of democracy in Brussels, the UK cannot change Europe from the outside.

Thanks for the reply, and your list of reasons to remain. Sadly, I suspect, these are not the strongest arguments to sway the kind of person who wants to leave the EU. I may be generalizing improperly - but the environment, human rights, regulating big businesses and so on, are more likely valued by Labour voting, Guardian reading, flabby liberals - who're already pro-eu. What we have to worry about are jingoistic, barely literate, Sun reading, UKIP voting former BNP members... (Tee-hee!)

How are we going to persuade them that it is in Britain's best interest to remain part of the EU?

Well it was really meant for Anti-Austerity leftists who are voting to leave, ie members of RMT, Respect and TUSC

The left is all over the place these days. It's a real crisis, brought on, I would argue Labour's pursuit of a politically correct agenda, in contraction to the interests of the working people the Labour movement was originally set up to represent. So, for fear of appearing racist - Labour couldn't oppose immigration - to the eventual ire of the unions, who are much closer to the actual labourers, metropolitain elites imagine they share values with. But my father used to say, unions aside, there's no-one more conservative than the working man. Now Labour is in trouble - and Corbyn isn't getting to the heart of the problem. I believe his official position is to remain, but it doesn't surprise me the unions want to leave.

Well only RMT have endorsed leaving.
I don't think the working people in the UK, or in the US for that matter, are really conservative. To quote Rosa Luxemburg, "Those who do not move, do not notice their chains." Since Thatcher gutted the unions and the rise of New Labour, working people have really been left without a voice, thats why now they are turning to parties like the Greens, SNP and UKIP, and previously to parties like BNP and Respect. These parties provided clear alternatives to major parties which only became more and more alike. Those who didn't vote for an alternative party just went back and forth with the same two parties, thinking, well at least their better than the other one, or they didn't bother to vote at all.
Corbyn is a breath of fresh air to many working people in my view, as he represents a clear alternative to the Tories.

I like the quote but disagree. I think the fact that working people are conservative at heart is proven by the prevalence of the 'welfare scroungers' meme, or the success of right to buy - to the detriment of council and social housing. But I'm torn over Thatchers approach to the unions. Union power was massively abused in the 1970's - and we couldn't carry on like that.
Impressively, the Conservatives are resisting an equal and opposite rightward drift - even as the Labour Party have gone screeching off to the left, because of this middle ground problem - but I suspect the solution is worse than the problem; that working people have no voice. Certainly, there are major issues - like housing, that need urgent attention, but I don't see the same kind of serious poverty or gross exploitation of workers that inspired the Labour movement 100 years ago.
I'll stand to be corrected, but I very much doubt extreme left will be more attractive to voters than left of center. I view Corbyn as political sorbet - cleansing the palate before the next course; but eventually, Labour will be forced back to the middle, to fight on grounds of competent management - surely!?

"Screeching to the left"? Labour has bee moving rightwards until about 6 months ago

The world is moving rightwards since the fall of communism, and in the context of globalization. That's the realpolitik wallpaper. Voting for Corbyn as leader is screeching off to the far left. He was only voted in as leader because the far left of the Labour Party membership are unrepresentatively influential as a block - relative to the majority of middle ground voters divided between a variety of more moderate candidates.

You do realize that the Labour Party doesn't use plurality voting? They use IRV and the spoiler effect doesn't exist in that.
Labour party members wanted a progressive alternative to the tories. They realized they weren't winning by appealing to the middle, they would win by presenting a clear alternative.

I was vaguely aware of the fact, but I didn't suggest it was a spoiler effect as such. There's a sizeable far-left minority within the labour party membership; and they were the most coherent group; or largest minority relative to a very divided middle ground majority. Under such circumstances, ARV will not save the divided majority from the vocal minority - particularly if the minority candidate isn't expected to win, and hoovers up second preference votes members were trying to spoil - in order to favour their candidate relative to middle ground contenders.
It was a shock to all when he won, right? I mean, I didn't dream that? Did I? Maybe Corbyn is the leader Labour wants. One thing for sure, it's the leader they've got - so may as-well get behind him.

Not a huge shock that he won, but it was a surprise by the majority he won. He had been the Front Runner since the start of August, but many polls suggested there would be several ballots. When he won with a 59% majority on the first count, it was a surprise he had pulled off such a landslide.

Wow. He did - you're right. 59.5% of first preference votes. Okay. I did not know that. And under Collin's OMOV - rather than the electoral college system. The workers have spoken. Can't argue with that.
autocorrect
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4/7/2016 6:49:35 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
David Cameron has defended a government pro-EU membership campaign, amid criticism that "9m of public money is being spent on "one-sided propaganda". The PM said the government was "not neutral" in the referendum and the cost was "money well spent". The 16-page leaflets will be sent to 27 million UK homes from next week.
UKIP Leader Nigel Farage said it was "outrageous" to spend taxpayers' money "to tell us how we should think and how we should vote". Leave campaigners complained that the promotional campaign was costing more than the 7m each side will be allowed to spend by law, once the official campaign period starts next week.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...

There was a general election and David Cameron's Conservative Party was voted into office with a clear majority of the votes, in order to make decisions about what's best for the country.

For the largest part, un-elected agitators of public opinion and the media employed the divisive issue of immigration to force David Cameron into promising a referendum on membership of the European Union, during the general election campaign.

Good to his word, Cameron made it happen. The government have an obligation to take a view - which it has done, and communicate its reasons to people. It has a right to use tax-payer's money to do so. The Leave Campaign on the other hand, have no legitimate claim on the public purse - and were it up to me, would have not one solitary copper penny from the Exchequor to prosecute their interest from a promise extracted under fire.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,580
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4/7/2016 10:40:06 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/23/2016 7:29:17 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 11:50:04 AM, autocorrect wrote:

I'd need to see the leaflet, if you can find a pic or post one that would be great but here are the reasons I support the UK staying in Europe.
1) EU agreements have improved Britain's environmental protections and helped the environment

You mean the cap policy? What a waste of Money. Giving rich farmers huge subsidies to do nothing.

2) EU has added worker protections and anti-discrimination rules that are not existent in British law.

The British government could implement such laws if it wanted.

3) It is easier to tackle cross border tax dodging inside the EU

How?

4) In the era of Globalization, it is vital that there are cross border rules regulating corporations.

Why? Also why can't these be maintained after brexit?

5) Because the Human Rights Act would be under greater threat if the UK were to leave the EU.

It needs amending. We should not be forced to keep convicted terrorists/hate preachers like Abu Hamza in the country due to fears of them being tortured in their home countries.

6) The issue of Ireland and that it would severly hurt the UK-Ireland relationship

I don't see how it would make any difference.

7) While the EU does have MANY problems, almost all stemming from the lack of democracy in Brussels, the UK cannot change Europe from the outside.

Problems.

1. "11 Billion membership fee.
2. Lack of sovereignty.
3. Not being allowed to negotiate our own trade deals.
4. Common agricultural policy.
5. No control over net migration from the eu.
6. Pressure on services created by net migration.
7. Eu courts holding authority over British court's.
8. Money paid in benefits to eu nationals and dependants in their home countries.
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,043
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4/8/2016 3:02:43 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 10:40:06 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 3/23/2016 7:29:17 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 11:50:04 AM, autocorrect wrote:

I'd need to see the leaflet, if you can find a pic or post one that would be great but here are the reasons I support the UK staying in Europe.
1) EU agreements have improved Britain's environmental protections and helped the environment

You mean the cap policy? What a waste of Money. Giving rich farmers huge subsidies to do nothing.

2) EU has added worker protections and anti-discrimination rules that are not existent in British law.

The British government could implement such laws if it wanted.

3) It is easier to tackle cross border tax dodging inside the EU

How?

4) In the era of Globalization, it is vital that there are cross border rules regulating corporations.

Why? Also why can't these be maintained after brexit?

5) Because the Human Rights Act would be under greater threat if the UK were to leave the EU.

It needs amending. We should not be forced to keep convicted terrorists/hate preachers like Abu Hamza in the country due to fears of them being tortured in their home countries.

6) The issue of Ireland and that it would severly hurt the UK-Ireland relationship

I don't see how it would make any difference.

7) While the EU does have MANY problems, almost all stemming from the lack of democracy in Brussels, the UK cannot change Europe from the outside.

Problems.

1. "11 Billion membership fee.
2. Lack of sovereignty.
3. Not being allowed to negotiate our own trade deals.
4. Common agricultural policy.
5. No control over net migration from the eu.
6. Pressure on services created by net migration.
7. Eu courts holding authority over British court's.
8. Money paid in benefits to eu nationals and dependants in their home countries.

Please reply like this, please don't go line by line, it makes responding more complex.
1) No I am not referring to the Cap and Trade scheme it was a failure. I am referring to
the fact that experts are saying that EU membership has had many benefits for the British environment, and the EU is a better way to tackle climate change than the current system.
http://www.theguardian.com...

2) While the British government could implement those, what do you think the odds are that Cameron would implement them?

3) Because the British Government only has jurisdiction over Britain

4) Why? Because Britain would be withdrawing from the organization that makes and enforces those rules.

5) So people should turn a blind eye to those who are being murdered and tortured by autocratic regimes?

6) It would threaten the integrity of the Good Friday Agreement, undermine all-Ireland co-operation and harden partition.

7) The main problem existing in the EU is the lack of Democracy, and the EU must be democratized, but this can't happen if Britain leaves the EU. Don't abandon ship when the hole can still be patched.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,580
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4/8/2016 7:48:12 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/8/2016 3:02:43 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 4/7/2016 10:40:06 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 3/23/2016 7:29:17 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 11:50:04 AM, autocorrect wrote:

I'd need to see the leaflet, if you can find a pic or post one that would be great but here are the reasons I support the UK staying in Europe.
1) EU agreements have improved Britain's environmental protections and helped the environment

You mean the cap policy? What a waste of Money. Giving rich farmers huge subsidies to do nothing.

2) EU has added worker protections and anti-discrimination rules that are not existent in British law.

The British government could implement such laws if it wanted.

3) It is easier to tackle cross border tax dodging inside the EU

How?

4) In the era of Globalization, it is vital that there are cross border rules regulating corporations.

Why? Also why can't these be maintained after brexit?

5) Because the Human Rights Act would be under greater threat if the UK were to leave the EU.

It needs amending. We should not be forced to keep convicted terrorists/hate preachers like Abu Hamza in the country due to fears of them being tortured in their home countries.

6) The issue of Ireland and that it would severly hurt the UK-Ireland relationship

I don't see how it would make any difference.

7) While the EU does have MANY problems, almost all stemming from the lack of democracy in Brussels, the UK cannot change Europe from the outside.

Problems.

1. "11 Billion membership fee.
2. Lack of sovereignty.
3. Not being allowed to negotiate our own trade deals.
4. Common agricultural policy.
5. No control over net migration from the eu.
6. Pressure on services created by net migration.
7. Eu courts holding authority over British court's.
8. Money paid in benefits to eu nationals and dependants in their home countries.

Please reply like this, please don't go line by line, it makes responding more complex.
1) No I am not referring to the Cap and Trade scheme it was a failure. I am referring to
the fact that experts are saying that EU membership has had many benefits for the British environment, and the EU is a better way to tackle climate change than the current system.

Sorry this is how I like to reply. It's much easier because I can see the point as I'm typing. There is no reason why leaving the eu would effect the environment negatively. Climate change is a global issue that I personally don't really see any point in worrying about. The UK is hardly going to reverse it while India and China are pumping out greenhouse gases without regulation.
http://www.theguardian.com...

2) While the British government could implement those, what do you think the odds are that Cameron would implement them?

I don't know if he would or not. I don't see this as an important issue though.

3) Because the British Government only has jurisdiction over Britain

The eu parliament currently has authority over Westminster. This Is a bad thing in all respects. We are a sovereign country and should make our own laws.

4) Why? Because Britain would be withdrawing from the organization that makes and enforces those rules.

That's a good thing. We would be free to make laws suited to British citizens.

5) So people should turn a blind eye to those who are being murdered and tortured by autocratic regimes?

I would turn a blind eye to the treatment of convicted criminals yes.

6) It would threaten the integrity of the Good Friday Agreement, undermine all-Ireland co-operation and harden partition.

No it wouldn't. Things would continue in a similar manner. Who would be motivated to change things?

7) The main problem existing in the EU is the lack of Democracy, and the EU must be democratized, but this can't happen if Britain leaves the EU. Don't abandon ship when the hole can still be patched.

Abandon the sinking ship. The eurozone is going down. The further we are from it the smaller the damage. I agree its undemocratic. As eu citizens we have no say in how it is run.
BrendanD19
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4/8/2016 1:17:31 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/8/2016 7:48:12 AM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/8/2016 3:02:43 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 4/7/2016 10:40:06 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 3/23/2016 7:29:17 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 11:50:04 AM, autocorrect wrote:
Please reply like this, please don't go line by line, it makes responding more complex.
1) No I am not referring to the Cap and Trade scheme it was a failure. I am referring to
the fact that experts are saying that EU membership has had many benefits for the British environment, and the EU is a better way to tackle climate change than the current system.

Sorry this is how I like to reply. It's much easier because I can see the point as I'm typing. There is no reason why leaving the eu would effect the environment negatively. Climate change is a global issue that I personally don't really see any point in worrying about. The UK is hardly going to reverse it while India and China are pumping out greenhouse gases without regulation.
http://www.theguardian.com...

2) While the British government could implement those, what do you think the odds are that Cameron would implement them?

I don't know if he would or not. I don't see this as an important issue though.

3) Because the British Government only has jurisdiction over Britain

The eu parliament currently has authority over Westminster. This Is a bad thing in all respects. We are a sovereign country and should make our own laws.

4) Why? Because Britain would be withdrawing from the organization that makes and enforces those rules.

That's a good thing. We would be free to make laws suited to British citizens.

5) So people should turn a blind eye to those who are being murdered and tortured by autocratic regimes?

I would turn a blind eye to the treatment of convicted criminals yes.

6) It would threaten the integrity of the Good Friday Agreement, undermine all-Ireland co-operation and harden partition.

No it wouldn't. Things would continue in a similar manner. Who would be motivated to change things?

7) The main problem existing in the EU is the lack of Democracy, and the EU must be democratized, but this can't happen if Britain leaves the EU. Don't abandon ship when the hole can still be patched.

Abandon the sinking ship. The eurozone is going down. The further we are from it the smaller the damage. I agree its undemocratic. As eu citizens we have no say in how it is run.

1) Yes China and India do need to curb their emissions, but so do the US and the EU and if only China and India cubed their emissions, we would still be speeding towards catastrophe. You said its a global issue, and that means the WHOLE globe must work to solve it. This is easier in the EU where multiple nations, all with high per capita emissions, can work together on this.
2) He wouldn't implement them, they go against his ideology. And losing workplace protections like Limits on weekly hours, guaranteed breaks at work, paternity leave, rights for agency workers and minimum amounts of annual holiday are protected at the European level. Do you want to lose these?
3) EU Parliament is basically a toothless organization, it's just a formality. The European Commission and the ECB hold the real power in Europe. UK parliament has more power than the EU parliament. Just ask Caroline Lucas, who has sat in both bodies.
4) 4) In the era of Globalization, it is vital that there are cross-border rules regulating corporations. You do understand what cross-border means, right?
5) So they are not HUMAN beings, with basic HUMAN rights?
6) Ireland is in the EU if the UK were to leave the EU, many of the EU related agreements between the two nations would be nullified. Who would want to undermine Irish cooperation? The DUP, the TUV, and UKIP, to name a few.
7) Yes, the EU is going down, but you can still patch the hole. And the UK isn't even in the Eurozone (note I think the Eurozone will need to be voluntarily and gradually dismantled but this is a side issue). The EU is undemocratic, but if you walk away is it more democratic? In order to change Europe, you need to stay in Europe. Another Europe is possible, but it can only become a reality if you stay in Europe so you can make it so.