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Do liberals know what a right is?

themightyindividual
Posts: 98
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3/24/2016 5:49:23 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
A right is the inalienable ability to act on your own behalf and do anything you want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. A rights cannot be "invented" and they never require the pemission of a government or the labor of a second party.

Health insurance, housing, education, internet, satellite television, these are all things that are NOT rights. They are services that can be provided to you through voluntary exchange. To make these into "rights" would mean enslaving those who provide these services (which would disqualify them as rights because nobody has the right to enslave another person).
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 13,177
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3/24/2016 9:17:39 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/24/2016 5:49:23 PM, themightyindividual wrote:
A right is the inalienable ability to act on your own behalf and do anything you want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. A rights cannot be "invented" and they never require the pemission of a government or the labor of a second party.

Health insurance, housing, education, internet, satellite television, these are all things that are NOT rights. They are services that can be provided to you through voluntary exchange. To make these into "rights" would mean enslaving those who provide these services (which would disqualify them as rights because nobody has the right to enslave another person).

Why do they have to be enslaved? Can they not be appointed, elected or hired?
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TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/24/2016 9:24:35 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/24/2016 5:49:23 PM, themightyindividual wrote:
A right is the inalienable ability to act on your own behalf and do anything you want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. A rights cannot be "invented" and they never require the pemission of a government or the labor of a second party.

Health insurance, housing, education, internet, satellite television, these are all things that are NOT rights. They are services that can be provided to you through voluntary exchange. To make these into "rights" would mean enslaving those who provide these services (which would disqualify them as rights because nobody has the right to enslave another person).

Sure. Sure we do.

Do republicans know what compassion is? Do they know their a$$holes from... You get the point. This is just bait for an argument.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,328
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3/24/2016 9:49:15 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/24/2016 5:49:23 PM, themightyindividual wrote:
A right is the inalienable ability to act on your own behalf and do anything you want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. A rights cannot be "invented" and they never require the pemission of a government or the labor of a second party.

Health insurance, housing, education, internet, satellite television, these are all things that are NOT rights. They are services that can be provided to you through voluntary exchange. To make these into "rights" would mean enslaving those who provide these services (which would disqualify them as rights because nobody has the right to enslave another person).

I don't think any reasonable person argues that Healthcare, housing, and education are "rights" in the same way as the "right" to life, and freedom. They are indeed services.

The disagreement between conservative and liberal positions stems from whether these services ought to be provided to everyone, not on their definitions as rights.

Law enforcement is not a "right," it's a service, yet you don't see many conservatives arguing for it to be privatized or that people should pay to have the police visit their house in case someone is robbing them.
Fly
Posts: 2,112
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3/24/2016 9:58:01 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/24/2016 5:49:23 PM, themightyindividual wrote:
A right is the inalienable ability to act on your own behalf and do anything you want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. A rights cannot be "invented" and they never require the pemission of a government or the labor of a second party.

Health insurance, housing, education, internet, satellite television, these are all things that are NOT rights. They are services that can be provided to you through voluntary exchange. To make these into "rights" would mean enslaving those who provide these services (which would disqualify them as rights because nobody has the right to enslave another person).

You are not really discussing the definition of "rights" so much as delineating between negative and positive rights. Sure, liberals tend to embrace various things as positive rights more, but conservatives certainly don't abstain entirely from them-- national defense is a prime example.
"If you say you pray to God, that makes you normal. But if you say you pray to God through your hair dryer, you are clearly a lunatic."
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EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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3/24/2016 10:00:46 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/24/2016 5:49:23 PM, themightyindividual wrote:
A right is the inalienable ability to act on your own behalf and do anything you want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. A rights cannot be "invented" and they never require the pemission of a government or the labor of a second party.

Health insurance, housing, education, internet, satellite television, these are all things that are NOT rights. They are services that can be provided to you through voluntary exchange. To make these into "rights" would mean enslaving those who provide these services (which would disqualify them as rights because nobody has the right to enslave another person).

Someone's never heard of positive rights.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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3/24/2016 10:39:36 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/24/2016 9:24:35 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:49:23 PM, themightyindividual wrote:
A right is the inalienable ability to act on your own behalf and do anything you want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. A rights cannot be "invented" and they never require the pemission of a government or the labor of a second party.

Health insurance, housing, education, internet, satellite television, these are all things that are NOT rights. They are services that can be provided to you through voluntary exchange. To make these into "rights" would mean enslaving those who provide these services (which would disqualify them as rights because nobody has the right to enslave another person).

Sure. Sure we do.

Do republicans know what compassion is? Do they know their a$$holes from... You get the point. This is just bait for an argument.

I can't speak for Conservatives because I'm a Moderate, but I can say many Liberals look like mindless Nazis right now. They believe their are no terrorists hellbent on our destruction, you cannot say "Islamic", you can't own a gun, and you're only a bigot if you speak against Islam(Christianity is fair game. Strange how that works). They scream "free speech" while blocking free speech with roadblocks and by taking over rallies. They scream "you are speaking hate speech!" While speaking "hate speech. They "denounce violence, but are violent. It's beginning to look like a sickness...
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
themightyindividual
Posts: 98
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3/25/2016 12:02:24 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/24/2016 10:00:46 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:49:23 PM, themightyindividual wrote:
A right is the inalienable ability to act on your own behalf and do anything you want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. A rights cannot be "invented" and they never require the pemission of a government or the labor of a second party.

Health insurance, housing, education, internet, satellite television, these are all things that are NOT rights. They are services that can be provided to you through voluntary exchange. To make these into "rights" would mean enslaving those who provide these services (which would disqualify them as rights because nobody has the right to enslave another person).

Someone's never heard of positive rights.

Positive rights do not exist. The closest thing to it would be the obligation of private parties to abide by the terms of private contracts (i.e. Xfinity is obliged to provide me cable and I am a obliged to pay them for it). But there are no positive "rights" in nature (i.e. you are not endowed with the right to health care, but you are entitled to it if you signed a contract with your employer or health care provider that says so). Since housing and health insurance and education aren't things that can exist without action, it would lead one to believe that in a free society you would have to pay for these services independently and privately.
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,998
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3/25/2016 12:06:34 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
There are no "rights", only privileges.
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TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/25/2016 12:28:50 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/24/2016 10:39:36 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 3/24/2016 9:24:35 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:49:23 PM, themightyindividual wrote:
A right is the inalienable ability to act on your own behalf and do anything you want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. A rights cannot be "invented" and they never require the pemission of a government or the labor of a second party.

Health insurance, housing, education, internet, satellite television, these are all things that are NOT rights. They are services that can be provided to you through voluntary exchange. To make these into "rights" would mean enslaving those who provide these services (which would disqualify them as rights because nobody has the right to enslave another person).

Sure. Sure we do.

Do republicans know what compassion is? Do they know their a$$holes from... You get the point. This is just bait for an argument.

I can't speak for Conservatives because I'm a Moderate, but I can say many Liberals look like mindless Nazis right now. They believe their are no terrorists hellbent on our destruction, you cannot say "Islamic", you can't own a gun, and you're only a bigot if you speak against Islam(Christianity is fair game. Strange how that works). They scream "free speech" while blocking free speech with roadblocks and by taking over rallies. They scream "you are speaking hate speech!" While speaking "hate speech. They "denounce violence, but are violent. It's beginning to look like a sickness...

And moderates can't even pick a side. They are so wishy washy that...

See how it works?
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,827
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3/25/2016 12:57:20 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/25/2016 12:06:34 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
There are no "rights", only privileges.

Every "right" has exemptions....
I find myself intrigued by your subvocal oscillations.
A singular development of cat communications
That obviates your basic hedonistic predilection,
For a rhythmic stroking of your fur to demonstrate affection.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,374
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3/25/2016 1:26:55 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/24/2016 5:49:23 PM, themightyindividual wrote:
A right is the inalienable ability to act on your own behalf and do anything you want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. A rights cannot be "invented" and they never require the pemission of a government or the labor of a second party.

Health insurance, housing, education, internet, satellite television, these are all things that are NOT rights. They are services that can be provided to you through voluntary exchange. To make these into "rights" would mean enslaving those who provide these services (which would disqualify them as rights because nobody has the right to enslave another person).
"Whatever else is evil, the pride of a good mother in the beauty of her daughter is good. It is one of those adamantine tendernesses which are the touchstones of every age and race. If other things are against it, other things must go down. If landlords and laws and sciences are against it, landlords and laws and sciences must go down. With the red hair of one she-urchin in the gutter I will set fire to all modern civilization."
- G. K. Chesterton -
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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3/25/2016 1:35:17 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/24/2016 5:49:23 PM, themightyindividual wrote:
A right is the inalienable ability to act on your own behalf and do anything you want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. A rights cannot be "invented" and they never require the pemission of a government or the labor of a second party.

Rights are not existent mystical entities, they are things we as human beings grant to each other. You can claim that you have a right to life all you want. That would be pretty meaningless while being tied up in front of a video camera next to an Isis militant.

Health insurance, housing, education, internet, satellite television, these are all things that are NOT rights. They are services that can be provided to you through voluntary exchange. To make these into "rights" would mean enslaving those who provide these services (which would disqualify them as rights because nobody has the right to enslave another person).

I agree that they are not "rights" in the traditional sense of the word. And I agree with your implicit argument that those who make the "healthcare is a right" argument among others are just playing off of people's emotions to sound rational, but none of that defies the actual point they are making. Do you or do you not want to live in a country where all citizens have access to affordable healthcare, education, etc.? Or are you content with a country where people die young because the jobs they did, jobs that someone in our country has to do, do not pay enough?
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,827
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3/25/2016 1:45:34 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/25/2016 1:26:55 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:49:23 PM, themightyindividual wrote:
A right is the inalienable ability to act on your own behalf and do anything you want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. A rights cannot be "invented" and they never require the pemission of a government or the labor of a second party.

Health insurance, housing, education, internet, satellite television, these are all things that are NOT rights. They are services that can be provided to you through voluntary exchange. To make these into "rights" would mean enslaving those who provide these services (which would disqualify them as rights because nobody has the right to enslave another person).


nice
I find myself intrigued by your subvocal oscillations.
A singular development of cat communications
That obviates your basic hedonistic predilection,
For a rhythmic stroking of your fur to demonstrate affection.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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3/25/2016 1:56:02 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/25/2016 12:02:24 AM, themightyindividual wrote:
At 3/24/2016 10:00:46 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:49:23 PM, themightyindividual wrote:
A right is the inalienable ability to act on your own behalf and do anything you want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. A rights cannot be "invented" and they never require the pemission of a government or the labor of a second party.

Health insurance, housing, education, internet, satellite television, these are all things that are NOT rights. They are services that can be provided to you through voluntary exchange. To make these into "rights" would mean enslaving those who provide these services (which would disqualify them as rights because nobody has the right to enslave another person).

Someone's never heard of positive rights.

Positive rights do not exist. The closest thing to it would be the obligation of private parties to abide by the terms of private contracts (i.e. Xfinity is obliged to provide me cable and I am a obliged to pay them for it). But there are no positive "rights" in nature (i.e. you are not endowed with the right to health care, but you are entitled to it if you signed a contract with your employer or health care provider that says so). Since housing and health insurance and education aren't things that can exist without action, it would lead one to believe that in a free society you would have to pay for these services independently and privately.

There are no negative rights in nature either. Rights are what we grant one another by social contract when forming societies. So, yes, there are positive rights to healthcare and education.
themightyindividual
Posts: 98
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3/25/2016 1:56:40 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/25/2016 1:35:17 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:49:23 PM, themightyindividual wrote:
A right is the inalienable ability to act on your own behalf and do anything you want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. A rights cannot be "invented" and they never require the pemission of a government or the labor of a second party.

Rights are not existent mystical entities, they are things we as human beings grant to each other. You can claim that you have a right to life all you want. That would be pretty meaningless while being tied up in front of a video camera next to an Isis militant.

Health insurance, housing, education, internet, satellite television, these are all things that are NOT rights. They are services that can be provided to you through voluntary exchange. To make these into "rights" would mean enslaving those who provide these services (which would disqualify them as rights because nobody has the right to enslave another person).

I agree that they are not "rights" in the traditional sense of the word. And I agree with your implicit argument that those who make the "healthcare is a right" argument among others are just playing off of people's emotions to sound rational, but none of that defies the actual point they are making. Do you or do you not want to live in a country where all citizens have access to affordable healthcare, education, etc.? Or are you content with a country where people die young because the jobs they did, jobs that someone in our country has to do, do not pay enough?

Rights are objectively extistent, no matter how many ISIS militants you have. You cannot "grant" a right, you can "grant" a permission but not a right. Terrorists can infringe upon these rights (like the ISIS militants) but it doesn't nullify them. The society you describe, where we grant eachother permission to exist, is barbaric and destructive. Such a system would result in murder, rape, vandalism, theft, arson, and other atrocities being completely permissible (i.e. I can revoke your right to exist at any time and would not be at fault).
slo1
Posts: 4,536
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3/25/2016 2:08:16 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/24/2016 5:49:23 PM, themightyindividual wrote:
A right is the inalienable ability to act on your own behalf and do anything you want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. A rights cannot be "invented" and they never require the pemission of a government or the labor of a second party.

Health insurance, housing, education, internet, satellite television, these are all things that are NOT rights. They are services that can be provided to you through voluntary exchange. To make these into "rights" would mean enslaving those who provide these services (which would disqualify them as rights because nobody has the right to enslave another person).

That is rather interesting that Ronald Regan signed a law which enslaved hospitals by requiring they perform emergency medical services to anyone who shows up on their doorstep including illegal aliens.
themightyindividual
Posts: 98
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3/25/2016 2:15:25 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/25/2016 2:08:16 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:49:23 PM, themightyindividual wrote:
A right is the inalienable ability to act on your own behalf and do anything you want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. A rights cannot be "invented" and they never require the pemission of a government or the labor of a second party.

Health insurance, housing, education, internet, satellite television, these are all things that are NOT rights. They are services that can be provided to you through voluntary exchange. To make these into "rights" would mean enslaving those who provide these services (which would disqualify them as rights because nobody has the right to enslave another person).

That is rather interesting that Ronald Regan signed a law which enslaved hospitals by requiring they perform emergency medical services to anyone who shows up on their doorstep including illegal aliens.

I don't know if that was meant to render my point moot but that is exactly what that law did. Now we are paying to medically treat people who came here illegally.
Death23
Posts: 849
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3/25/2016 2:38:26 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/24/2016 5:49:23 PM, themightyindividual wrote:
A right is the inalienable ability to act on your own behalf and do anything you want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. A rights cannot be "invented" and they never require the pemission of a government or the labor of a second party.

That's not what a right is. That's the libertarian harm principle. You're confounding it with rights.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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3/26/2016 3:22:20 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/25/2016 1:56:40 AM, themightyindividual wrote:
At 3/25/2016 1:35:17 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/24/2016 5:49:23 PM, themightyindividual wrote:
A right is the inalienable ability to act on your own behalf and do anything you want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. A rights cannot be "invented" and they never require the pemission of a government or the labor of a second party.

Rights are not existent mystical entities, they are things we as human beings grant to each other. You can claim that you have a right to life all you want. That would be pretty meaningless while being tied up in front of a video camera next to an Isis militant.

Health insurance, housing, education, internet, satellite television, these are all things that are NOT rights. They are services that can be provided to you through voluntary exchange. To make these into "rights" would mean enslaving those who provide these services (which would disqualify them as rights because nobody has the right to enslave another person).

I agree that they are not "rights" in the traditional sense of the word. And I agree with your implicit argument that those who make the "healthcare is a right" argument among others are just playing off of people's emotions to sound rational, but none of that defies the actual point they are making. Do you or do you not want to live in a country where all citizens have access to affordable healthcare, education, etc.? Or are you content with a country where people die young because the jobs they did, jobs that someone in our country has to do, do not pay enough?

Rights are objectively extistent, no matter how many ISIS militants you have. You cannot "grant" a right, you can "grant" a permission but not a right. Terrorists can infringe upon these rights (like the ISIS militants) but it doesn't nullify them. The society you describe, where we grant eachother permission to exist, is barbaric and destructive. Such a system would result in murder, rape, vandalism, theft, arson, and other atrocities being completely permissible (i.e. I can revoke your right to exist at any time and would not be at fault).

To you even know what that means? Please show me where in reality these rights exist. Please explain how in a reality with no minds, there are still rights.
Haroush
Posts: 1,329
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3/26/2016 4:13:07 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
I would like to note Ronald Reagan wasn't all that conservative as people make him out to be. I would say Ronald Reagan was overrated as a conservative.