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Open borders?

someloser
Posts: 1,377
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3/27/2016 5:53:59 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
Interested in hearing a case from proponents. Preferably beyond the purely economic, but anything is fine
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,295
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3/27/2016 6:09:31 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/27/2016 5:53:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Interested in hearing a case from proponents. Preferably beyond the purely economic, but anything is fine

Would you buy a house without a door?
Death23
Posts: 781
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3/27/2016 6:10:57 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/27/2016 5:53:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Interested in hearing a case from proponents. Preferably beyond the purely economic, but anything is fine

Borders are good. They keep bad people out. We'll take the doctors. Criminals and stupid people need not apply.
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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3/27/2016 6:15:33 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/27/2016 6:09:31 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
Would you buy a house without a door?

But free movement of peoples :(
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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3/27/2016 6:28:18 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/27/2016 5:53:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Interested in hearing a case from proponents. Preferably beyond the purely economic, but anything is fine
In the case of Mexicans - they set the bar for work ethics as well as making the most of our current economy. I've worked with several Mexicans in both the janitorial and food service industries and they are not only a pleasure to work with, they gave me pointers to working efficiently. I'm able to approach work with a more positive attitude because of the Mexicans that were great co-workers. The Mexicans I've known exemplify working steady and efficient vs. rushy and intense and then gossipy and whining while taking mini breaks.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,295
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3/27/2016 4:07:36 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/27/2016 6:28:18 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/27/2016 5:53:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Interested in hearing a case from proponents. Preferably beyond the purely economic, but anything is fine
In the case of Mexicans - they set the bar for work ethics as well as making the most of our current economy. I've worked with several Mexicans in both the janitorial and food service industries and they are not only a pleasure to work with, they gave me pointers to working efficiently. I'm able to approach work with a more positive attitude because of the Mexicans that were great co-workers. The Mexicans I've known exemplify working steady and efficient vs. rushy and intense and then gossipy and whining while taking mini breaks.

A great argument for making training wage jobs legal again in the country so that we can stop paying illegals under the table to do those jobs.
chass23RN
Posts: 43
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3/27/2016 4:20:33 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/27/2016 6:28:18 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/27/2016 5:53:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Interested in hearing a case from proponents. Preferably beyond the purely economic, but anything is fine
In the case of Mexicans - they set the bar for work ethics as well as making the most of our current economy. I've worked with several Mexicans in both the janitorial and food service industries and they are not only a pleasure to work with, they gave me pointers to working efficiently. I'm able to approach work with a more positive attitude because of the Mexicans that were great co-workers. The Mexicans I've known exemplify working steady and efficient vs. rushy and intense and then gossipy and whining while taking mini breaks.

But why can't people see allowing illegal immigrants into the country not only hurts Americans but legal immigrants as well? I don't think legal immigrants is the problem. They follow the law but allowing illegals in without going thru through process is not beneficial in any way. People think certain politicians are wrong for being strong against illegal immigration but they a re actually protecting the prosperity of Americans and legal immigrants who do the right thing. Why is this a problem?
SolonKR
Posts: 4,041
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3/27/2016 6:54:36 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
I'm not in favor of completely open borders, but I am in favor of greatly facilitating immigration. There are a few reasons why--some pragmatic, others ideological.

1. I really like immigrant-driven labor systems. Take Germany, for instance. The ideal is that the hard work of immigrants supports societal infrastructure (eg college) for the sake of natives, as well as immigrants' children (Germany has birthright citizenship provided the parents are either naturalized or have lived in the country for eight years).

2. The easiest way to stop illegal immigration of good people is to make legal immigration easier. We historically have not had low quotas on Mexican immigration (excluding the Depression, and one other period that eludes me), and haven't had problems with that--in fact, during the Gold Rush, we were more concerned about Chinese immigrants passing through Mexico to us than we were Mexicans. For more on that, there's a good book about the history of the border called Line in the Sand by a Rachel St. John.

3. The link between immigrants and crime is shaky. Illegal immigrants do commit a lot of crime--out of an estimated 11.4 million illegals, about 2.4 million crimes were committed from 2003 to 2009 (http://www.theatlantic.com...). The misleading part of that statement is that it ignores that criminal illegals commit an average of 7 crimes (ibid, see the GAO source). Meanwhile, legal immigrants are no more, or perhaps less (depending on whose math you trust) violent than natives. The problem is clearly that we don't have the infrastructure in place to distinguish good illegals from bad ones. Making legal immigration easier makes that problem much simpler than a wall of questionable efficacy--it would mean that the vast majority of illegal immigrants would, in fact, be bad people, and there would be no disagreement about the issue of their deportation. As well, by reducing the volume of illegal traffic, it becomes easier to manage it.

I think I'm rambling at this point, so I'll stop while I'm still vaguely coherent.
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
SolonKR
Posts: 4,041
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3/27/2016 6:56:46 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Tl;dr immigration is wonderful; we just need proper enforcement, which freer borders facilitate.
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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3/27/2016 7:01:26 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/27/2016 4:07:36 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/27/2016 6:28:18 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/27/2016 5:53:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Interested in hearing a case from proponents. Preferably beyond the purely economic, but anything is fine
In the case of Mexicans - they set the bar for work ethics as well as making the most of our current economy. I've worked with several Mexicans in both the janitorial and food service industries and they are not only a pleasure to work with, they gave me pointers to working efficiently. I'm able to approach work with a more positive attitude because of the Mexicans that were great co-workers. The Mexicans I've known exemplify working steady and efficient vs. rushy and intense and then gossipy and whining while taking mini breaks.

A great argument for making training wage jobs legal again in the country so that we can stop paying illegals under the table to do those jobs.

$7.25 is a training wage and all the Mexicans that I worked with were at least semi-legal in that they were given a pay check at the same crappy wage as all of us. I never discussed their official status - because of language barriers - but I know they had kids around the same age as my kids.

The reason many American workers despise these workers is cuz they do sh!tty jobs without complaining. I learned how much easier a job is when I approach it as a series of tasks to be completed at a steady pace, rather than a getter done mentality that many American workers approach tasks with. Also the steady approach out performs the getter done approach as far as productivity over the course of a shift.
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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3/27/2016 7:13:51 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/27/2016 4:20:33 PM, chass23RN wrote:
At 3/27/2016 6:28:18 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/27/2016 5:53:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Interested in hearing a case from proponents. Preferably beyond the purely economic, but anything is fine
In the case of Mexicans - they set the bar for work ethics as well as making the most of our current economy. I've worked with several Mexicans in both the janitorial and food service industries and they are not only a pleasure to work with, they gave me pointers to working efficiently. I'm able to approach work with a more positive attitude because of the Mexicans that were great co-workers. The Mexicans I've known exemplify working steady and efficient vs. rushy and intense and then gossipy and whining while taking mini breaks.

But why can't people see allowing illegal immigrants into the country not only hurts Americans but legal immigrants as well? I don't think legal immigrants is the problem. They follow the law but allowing illegals in without going thru through process is not beneficial in any way. People think certain politicians are wrong for being strong against illegal immigration but they a re actually protecting the prosperity of Americans and legal immigrants who do the right thing. Why is this a problem?

How are they protecting the prosperity of Americans who own businesses and DO pay illegals the same wage as they'd have paid Americans but find illegals are more productive workers who whine less? Don't those business owners have the right to prosper, without getting hate vibes from their American employees for being successful?

Lower Income Americans are a buncha whiners - rather than learning how to work using more efficient methods and rather than learning how to more efficiently manage their finances like Mexicans who manage at the same wage with Thanksgiving. They are an inspiration to me, and I model my work ethic and personal economics around the experiences I have had working with Mexicans.
slo1
Posts: 4,351
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3/28/2016 10:53:19 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/27/2016 6:10:57 AM, Death23 wrote:
At 3/27/2016 5:53:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Interested in hearing a case from proponents. Preferably beyond the purely economic, but anything is fine

Borders are good. They keep bad people out. We'll take the doctors. Criminals and stupid people need not apply.

I have a better idea, loosen regulation so nurses can conduct general practice. No doctors needed.
slo1
Posts: 4,351
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3/28/2016 11:06:32 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/27/2016 5:53:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Interested in hearing a case from proponents. Preferably beyond the purely economic, but anything is fine

It is extremely difficult to make an open borders case until there is some economic parity between countries. I would have no problems open borders with Canada. Doing it with Bangladesh would flood the labor market so much it would cause wage deflation.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,295
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3/28/2016 4:44:53 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/27/2016 6:56:46 PM, SolonKR wrote:
Tl;dr immigration is wonderful; we just need proper enforcement, which freer borders facilitate.

We can make the door as large as you want.
SolonKR
Posts: 4,041
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3/28/2016 6:53:59 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 4:44:53 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/27/2016 6:56:46 PM, SolonKR wrote:
Tl;dr immigration is wonderful; we just need proper enforcement, which freer borders facilitate.

We can make the door as large as you want.

?
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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3/28/2016 11:38:12 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/27/2016 6:56:46 PM, SolonKR wrote:
Tl;dr immigration is wonderful; we just need proper enforcement, which freer borders facilitate.

I agree with this, very well put :)
Meh!
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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3/28/2016 11:41:15 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/27/2016 5:53:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Interested in hearing a case from proponents. Preferably beyond the purely economic, but anything is fine

Close em for good and preserve the American culture.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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3/28/2016 11:41:40 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 11:41:15 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Close em for good and preserve the American culture.

What American culture?
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Death23
Posts: 781
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3/28/2016 11:47:08 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 10:53:19 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 3/27/2016 6:10:57 AM, Death23 wrote:
At 3/27/2016 5:53:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Interested in hearing a case from proponents. Preferably beyond the purely economic, but anything is fine

Borders are good. They keep bad people out. We'll take the doctors. Criminals and stupid people need not apply.

I have a better idea, loosen regulation so nurses can conduct general practice. No doctors needed.

Well, that's certainly part of the solution, and many states are already dipping their toes in the water with that approach. I'm not so sure that this approach, in and of itself, can eliminate the need for immigrant doctors though.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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3/28/2016 11:54:41 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 11:41:40 PM, someloser wrote:
At 3/28/2016 11:41:15 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Close em for good and preserve the American culture.

What American culture?

The environment that exists today. It can protect itself and guard the borders and get a grip on immigration or become nothing like it is now. Those with traditional American values are beginning to not be so much the majority. What's it mean? America won't be America anymore. Liberals at work.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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3/28/2016 11:56:15 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 11:54:41 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
The environment that exists today.

Which is... ?

Those with traditional American values

What would those be?

America won't be America anymore.

What is America right now beyond paperwork?
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Chang29
Posts: 732
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3/29/2016 12:02:55 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
Let people, goods, and services enter and leave without controls. While giving no subsides to people and ending birth right citizenship based on geography of birth.

Americans should be able voluntarily exchange goods, services, and labor without interference.
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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3/29/2016 12:05:49 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 11:56:15 PM, someloser wrote:
At 3/28/2016 11:54:41 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
The environment that exists today.

Which is... ?

Those with traditional American values

What would those be?

America won't be America anymore.

What is America right now beyond paperwork?

I'll explain it to you. When I was a kid the U.S. looked nothing like it does now. We prayed before class. We said the pledge of allegiance to the flag. The U.S. was 90%+ Christian. Everyone I knew went to church. We were united. We rose together. We fell together. Liberals then looked like Conservatives now and Conservatives didn't dare let you mess with their beliefs. Reagan warned the American people that the Liberals would tear it all down as immigration rose and the traditional American became not the majority but the minority. The country became a sespool of sin and madness, lost its way, and went to ruin. nd now Liberalism has destroyed American values and torn the infrastructure into shreads. We just want to save what is left.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/29/2016 12:07:25 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/27/2016 6:09:31 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/27/2016 5:53:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Interested in hearing a case from proponents. Preferably beyond the purely economic, but anything is fine

Would you buy a house without a door?

Do you think that a house without a door is the same thing as a border without a fence?
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,295
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3/29/2016 12:11:03 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 12:07:25 AM, TBR wrote:
At 3/27/2016 6:09:31 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/27/2016 5:53:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Interested in hearing a case from proponents. Preferably beyond the purely economic, but anything is fine

Would you buy a house without a door?

Do you think that a house without a door is the same thing as a border without a fence?

open borders is an oxymoron.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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3/29/2016 12:15:00 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 11:56:15 PM, someloser wrote:
At 3/28/2016 11:54:41 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
The environment that exists today.

Which is... ?

Those with traditional American values

What would those be?

America won't be America anymore.

What is America right now beyond paperwork?

I'll let Ronald Reagan explain it to you.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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3/29/2016 12:15:41 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
Ronald Reagan

http://youtu.be...
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/29/2016 12:18:13 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 12:11:03 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/29/2016 12:07:25 AM, TBR wrote:
At 3/27/2016 6:09:31 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/27/2016 5:53:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Interested in hearing a case from proponents. Preferably beyond the purely economic, but anything is fine

Would you buy a house without a door?

Do you think that a house without a door is the same thing as a border without a fence?

open borders is an oxymoron.

I agree. The wall rhetoric is moronic. 230 years with an open door? Please....
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,295
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3/29/2016 12:31:21 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 12:18:13 AM, TBR wrote:
At 3/29/2016 12:11:03 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/29/2016 12:07:25 AM, TBR wrote:
At 3/27/2016 6:09:31 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/27/2016 5:53:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Interested in hearing a case from proponents. Preferably beyond the purely economic, but anything is fine

Would you buy a house without a door?

Do you think that a house without a door is the same thing as a border without a fence?

open borders is an oxymoron.

I agree. The wall rhetoric is moronic. 230 years with an open door? Please....

Trump is good at doors, he will light your inner fire.