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Switzerland like Gun Control in America

Quadrunner
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3/28/2016 4:05:03 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
A lot of people talking about gun control policies in America compare to countries like England, and Australia. I always thought that seemed a little goofy, because I think we should be looking at countries with similar gun ownership rates, and somewhat of a gun culture.

Switzerland has always fascinated me because it's system is so close to the wording of the famous second amendment, and everyone serves in the military in Switzerland which I draw immediate connection to America's now longstanding military influence.

Any thoughts on some things that could be refitted to our American system? I feel that's its too restricting in some aspects, but I would personally love to be part of a well regulated militia if that's what it took to own a firearm, and I believe strongly that every gun owner should be well trained, not necessarily in killing things, but in handling, using, and storing the gun properly at the very minimum.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
bsh1
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3/28/2016 4:35:37 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Switzerland is, frankly, nothing like the United States on a cultural level. It does not have a gun culture in the same way we do--sure, every male owns a gun, but males rarely use their guns. This is a striking difference to the kind of thing we find here, where gun-based recreation, hunting, and collecting are all popular. Certainly, the view that guns are a legitimate form of personal self-defense is significantly less pronounced in Europe (pretty much anywhere in Europe), when compared to the U.S.
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Greyparrot
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3/28/2016 4:58:23 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 4:35:37 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Switzerland is, frankly, nothing like the United States on a cultural level. It does not have a gun culture in the same way we do--sure, every male owns a gun, but males rarely use their guns. This is a striking difference to the kind of thing we find here, where gun-based recreation, hunting, and collecting are all popular. Certainly, the view that guns are a legitimate form of personal self-defense is significantly less pronounced in Europe (pretty much anywhere in Europe), when compared to the U.S.

Recreational shooting is widespread in Switzerland. Practice with guns is a popular form of recreation, and is encouraged by the government, particularly for the members of the militia.

Prior to the turn of the century, about 200,000 people (how is that rarely??) used to attend the annual Feldschiessen, which is the LARGEST rifle shooting competition in the world. In 2012 they counted 130,000 participants. For the 2015 Federal Shooting, 37,000 shooters are registered. In addition, there are several private shooting ranges which rent guns.

https://en.wikipedia.org...
bsh1
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3/28/2016 5:16:45 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 4:58:23 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/28/2016 4:35:37 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Switzerland is, frankly, nothing like the United States on a cultural level. It does not have a gun culture in the same way we do--sure, every male owns a gun, but males rarely use their guns. This is a striking difference to the kind of thing we find here, where gun-based recreation, hunting, and collecting are all popular. Certainly, the view that guns are a legitimate form of personal self-defense is significantly less pronounced in Europe (pretty much anywhere in Europe), when compared to the U.S.

Recreational shooting is widespread in Switzerland. Practice with guns is a popular form of recreation, and is encouraged by the government, particularly for the members of the militia.

I don't disagree. The difference is the purpose behind it and the frequency of use compared to the U.S. Regarding the purpose, "Unlike some other heavily armed nations, Switzerland's gun ownership is deeply rooted in a sense of patriotic duty and national identity. Weapons are kept at home because of the long-held belief that enemies could invade tiny Switzerland quickly, so every soldier had to be able to fight his way to his regiment"s assembly point." [http://world.time.com...] Gun use in Switzerland is more often (even at ranges) encouraged or engaged in as part of military practice or to ensure basic proficiency in case one ever was called up. It may be recreational, but, in many cases, the primary purpose of it is not recreation.

As for frequency, ammo can give us a clue. In the U.S., 10 billion rounds of ammo are sold each year. If you take that number and divide it by the 318 (US pop in millions), you get 31,446,540. In Switzerland, 75 million rounds of ammo are used each year. Doing the same mathematical procedure for Switzerland as for the US, produces the number 9,259,259. This is significantly less than the US number. Ammo sales and/or ammo use is a decent proxy for assessing the frequency of gun use on a per capita basis (because you need ammo for all kinds of gun activities), and it just doesn't compare between the two nations. Rarely is necessarily a comparative term. If I were comparing Switzerland to Europe, that word would be a bad fit. But comparing it to the US, I don't think it is a bad fit.

[http://www.ammocoding.com...]
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Dark-one
Posts: 211
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3/28/2016 6:50:27 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 4:05:03 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
A lot of people talking about gun control policies in America compare to countries like England, and Australia. I always thought that seemed a little goofy, because I think we should be looking at countries with similar gun ownership rates, and somewhat of a gun culture.

Switzerland has always fascinated me because it's system is so close to the wording of the famous second amendment, and everyone serves in the military in Switzerland which I draw immediate connection to America's now longstanding military influence.

Any thoughts on some things that could be refitted to our American system? I feel that's its too restricting in some aspects, but I would personally love to be part of a well regulated militia if that's what it took to own a firearm, and I believe strongly that every gun owner should be well trained, not necessarily in killing things, but in handling, using, and storing the gun properly at the very minimum.

This is an interesting topic.
One important thing to note, like another guy here said, is the purpose.

The original intent of the 2nd amendment was as a fail safe. If the U.S. gov became tyrannical and overreached, the people would be armed-- capable of putting their government "back in it's place".
They weren't worried about active shooters and terrorists so much as they were of the gov abusing it's power.

People are less concerned about that it seems, and guns have become primarily a means of pastime and self-defense in the U.S.

Of course, all gun owners should have basic gunfighting skills. They don't need to be special forces types, but they should be able to defend themselves with a gun under stress.
Dark-one
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3/28/2016 6:56:56 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 4:05:03 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
A lot of people talking about gun control policies in America compare to countries like England, and Australia. I always thought that seemed a little goofy, because I think we should be looking at countries with similar gun ownership rates, and somewhat of a gun culture.

Switzerland has always fascinated me because it's system is so close to the wording of the famous second amendment, and everyone serves in the military in Switzerland which I draw immediate connection to America's now longstanding military influence.

Any thoughts on some things that could be refitted to our American system? I feel that's its too restricting in some aspects, but I would personally love to be part of a well regulated militia if that's what it took to own a firearm, and I believe strongly that every gun owner should be well trained, not necessarily in killing things, but in handling, using, and storing the gun properly at the very minimum.

Imagine, back the old wild west, how long an active shooter would've lasted in a saloon full of armed cowboys.

One or two guys might've been killed in the spree, but chances are the shooter would've been pumped full of lead before he was able to pull the trigger again.
Greyparrot
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3/28/2016 7:12:46 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 5:16:45 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/28/2016 4:58:23 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/28/2016 4:35:37 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Switzerland is, frankly, nothing like the United States on a cultural level. It does not have a gun culture in the same way we do--sure, every male owns a gun, but males rarely use their guns. This is a striking difference to the kind of thing we find here, where gun-based recreation, hunting, and collecting are all popular. Certainly, the view that guns are a legitimate form of personal self-defense is significantly less pronounced in Europe (pretty much anywhere in Europe), when compared to the U.S.

Recreational shooting is widespread in Switzerland. Practice with guns is a popular form of recreation, and is encouraged by the government, particularly for the members of the militia.

I don't disagree. The difference is the purpose behind it and the frequency of use compared to the U.S. Regarding the purpose, "Unlike some other heavily armed nations, Switzerland's gun ownership is deeply rooted in a sense of patriotic duty and national identity. Weapons are kept at home because of the long-held belief that enemies could invade tiny Switzerland quickly, so every soldier had to be able to fight his way to his regiment"s assembly point." [http://world.time.com...] Gun use in Switzerland is more often (even at ranges) encouraged or engaged in as part of military practice or to ensure basic proficiency in case one ever was called up. It may be recreational, but, in many cases, the primary purpose of it is not recreation.

As for frequency, ammo can give us a clue. In the U.S., 10 billion rounds of ammo are sold each year. If you take that number and divide it by the 318 (US pop in millions), you get 31,446,540. In Switzerland, 75 million rounds of ammo are used each year. Doing the same mathematical procedure for Switzerland as for the US, produces the number 9,259,259. This is significantly less than the US number. Ammo sales and/or ammo use is a decent proxy for assessing the frequency of gun use on a per capita basis (because you need ammo for all kinds of gun activities), and it just doesn't compare between the two nations. Rarely is necessarily a comparative term. If I were comparing Switzerland to Europe, that word would be a bad fit. But comparing it to the US, I don't think it is a bad fit.

[http://www.ammocoding.com...]

I agree America should use a more formal militia for various reasons. I also agree that most Americans are more likely to own guns as trophies rather than as a national obligation. I would take issue on the ammo statistic, because the revenues from ammo manufacturers probably doesn't distinguish between private and government sales.
bsh1
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3/28/2016 7:19:32 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 7:12:46 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I would take issue on the ammo statistic, because the revenues from ammo manufacturers probably doesn't distinguish between private and government sales.

Neither does the Swiss information. So, that makes it an even comparison, because both numbers take into account private and military uses. Keep in mind that massive portion of Swiss gun ownership and usage is connected to their military.

But, I think, even if you estimated 3 billion (minus 7 billion--which is generous--for military usage), that puts the US per capita rate around 9,433,962 (still larger than the Swiss number, and the Swiss number factors in military usage).
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Greyparrot
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3/28/2016 7:24:10 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 7:19:32 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/28/2016 7:12:46 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I would take issue on the ammo statistic, because the revenues from ammo manufacturers probably doesn't distinguish between private and government sales.

Neither does the Swiss information. So, that makes it an even comparison, because both numbers take into account private and military uses. Keep in mind that massive portion of Swiss gun ownership and usage is connected to their military.

But, I think, even if you estimated 3 billion (minus 7 billion--which is generous--for military usage), that puts the US per capita rate around 9,433,962 (still larger than the Swiss number, and the Swiss number factors in military usage).

Still not fair, our military has a much, much larger expense ratio to the Swiss.
bsh1
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3/28/2016 7:25:51 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 7:24:10 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/28/2016 7:19:32 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/28/2016 7:12:46 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I would take issue on the ammo statistic, because the revenues from ammo manufacturers probably doesn't distinguish between private and government sales.

Neither does the Swiss information. So, that makes it an even comparison, because both numbers take into account private and military uses. Keep in mind that massive portion of Swiss gun ownership and usage is connected to their military.

But, I think, even if you estimated 3 billion (minus 7 billion--which is generous--for military usage), that puts the US per capita rate around 9,433,962 (still larger than the Swiss number, and the Swiss number factors in military usage).

Still not fair, our military has a much, much larger expense ratio to the Swiss.

Right, which I why I did that secondary math, and assumed that 7 billion was related to the military. Once I remove that 7 billion, the US number is still larger than the Swiss number with the military.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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slo1
Posts: 4,364
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3/28/2016 9:14:17 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 4:05:03 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
A lot of people talking about gun control policies in America compare to countries like England, and Australia. I always thought that seemed a little goofy, because I think we should be looking at countries with similar gun ownership rates, and somewhat of a gun culture.

Switzerland has always fascinated me because it's system is so close to the wording of the famous second amendment, and everyone serves in the military in Switzerland which I draw immediate connection to America's now longstanding military influence.

Any thoughts on some things that could be refitted to our American system? I feel that's its too restricting in some aspects, but I would personally love to be part of a well regulated militia if that's what it took to own a firearm, and I believe strongly that every gun owner should be well trained, not necessarily in killing things, but in handling, using, and storing the gun properly at the very minimum.

Great let's fit them in.
-no armor piercing rounds
-no concealed or open carry.
- highly regulated sales although they too have opportunity in national shared database.
- no automatic
- even have to register a black powder rifle
- no knifes with longer than 5 cm blade
- no stun gun

Let me put it this way. If we adopted Swiss arms regulation the NRA would signal that the liberals have won and would disband.
Axonly
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3/28/2016 10:27:41 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 4:05:03 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
A lot of people talking about gun control policies in America compare to countries like England, and Australia. I always thought that seemed a little goofy, because I think we should be looking at countries with similar gun ownership rates, and somewhat of a gun culture.

Switzerland has always fascinated me because it's system is so close to the wording of the famous second amendment, and everyone serves in the military in Switzerland which I draw immediate connection to America's now longstanding military influence.

Any thoughts on some things that could be refitted to our American system? I feel that's its too restricting in some aspects, but I would personally love to be part of a well regulated militia if that's what it took to own a firearm, and I believe strongly that every gun owner should be well trained, not necessarily in killing things, but in handling, using, and storing the gun properly at the very minimum.

No one should have to serve in the military :/
Meh!
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,288
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3/28/2016 11:27:23 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 7:19:32 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/28/2016 7:12:46 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I would take issue on the ammo statistic, because the revenues from ammo manufacturers probably doesn't distinguish between private and government sales.

Neither does the Swiss information. So, that makes it an even comparison, because both numbers take into account private and military uses. Keep in mind that massive portion of Swiss gun ownership and usage is connected to their military.

But, I think, even if you estimated 3 billion (minus 7 billion--which is generous--for military usage), that puts the US per capita rate around 9,433,962 (still larger than the Swiss number, and the Swiss number factors in military usage).

Just the largest US ammunition contract is worth north of 8 billion...
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
bsh1
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3/28/2016 11:28:39 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 11:27:23 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/28/2016 7:19:32 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/28/2016 7:12:46 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I would take issue on the ammo statistic, because the revenues from ammo manufacturers probably doesn't distinguish between private and government sales.

Neither does the Swiss information. So, that makes it an even comparison, because both numbers take into account private and military uses. Keep in mind that massive portion of Swiss gun ownership and usage is connected to their military.

But, I think, even if you estimated 3 billion (minus 7 billion--which is generous--for military usage), that puts the US per capita rate around 9,433,962 (still larger than the Swiss number, and the Swiss number factors in military usage).

Just the largest US ammunition contract is worth north of 8 billion...

8 billion dollars?
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,288
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3/28/2016 11:36:40 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 11:28:39 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/28/2016 11:27:23 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/28/2016 7:19:32 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/28/2016 7:12:46 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I would take issue on the ammo statistic, because the revenues from ammo manufacturers probably doesn't distinguish between private and government sales.

Neither does the Swiss information. So, that makes it an even comparison, because both numbers take into account private and military uses. Keep in mind that massive portion of Swiss gun ownership and usage is connected to their military.

But, I think, even if you estimated 3 billion (minus 7 billion--which is generous--for military usage), that puts the US per capita rate around 9,433,962 (still larger than the Swiss number, and the Swiss number factors in military usage).

Just the largest US ammunition contract is worth north of 8 billion...

8 billion dollars?

'The biggest contract went to Alliant Techsystems (ATK), the world"s largest ammunition maker, with an $8.48 billion deal to upgrade and operate an Army ammunition factory in Independence, Mo.'
I think that they're definitely spending more than 7 a year if they can plop that down on one ten-year contract.
http://www.mintpressnews.com...

You also need to take into account whether you're looking at stats from a 'panic buy' year, which wouldn't be at all reflective of actual use.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
bsh1
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3/28/2016 11:38:49 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 11:36:40 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/28/2016 11:28:39 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/28/2016 11:27:23 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/28/2016 7:19:32 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/28/2016 7:12:46 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I would take issue on the ammo statistic, because the revenues from ammo manufacturers probably doesn't distinguish between private and government sales.

Neither does the Swiss information. So, that makes it an even comparison, because both numbers take into account private and military uses. Keep in mind that massive portion of Swiss gun ownership and usage is connected to their military.

But, I think, even if you estimated 3 billion (minus 7 billion--which is generous--for military usage), that puts the US per capita rate around 9,433,962 (still larger than the Swiss number, and the Swiss number factors in military usage).

Just the largest US ammunition contract is worth north of 8 billion...

8 billion dollars?

'The biggest contract went to Alliant Techsystems (ATK), the world"s largest ammunition maker, with an $8.48 billion deal to upgrade and operate an Army ammunition factory in Independence, Mo.'
I think that they're definitely spending more than 7 a year if they can plop that down on one ten-year contract.

You've misunderstood and misread then. I am not talking about dollars, I am talking about the amount of ammunition itself.
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someloser
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3/28/2016 11:41:06 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
It's not just culture and ownership rates. Have you looked at demographic differences and number of metropolitan areas?
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Skepsikyma
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3/28/2016 11:48:57 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 11:38:49 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/28/2016 11:36:40 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/28/2016 11:28:39 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/28/2016 11:27:23 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/28/2016 7:19:32 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/28/2016 7:12:46 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I would take issue on the ammo statistic, because the revenues from ammo manufacturers probably doesn't distinguish between private and government sales.

Neither does the Swiss information. So, that makes it an even comparison, because both numbers take into account private and military uses. Keep in mind that massive portion of Swiss gun ownership and usage is connected to their military.

But, I think, even if you estimated 3 billion (minus 7 billion--which is generous--for military usage), that puts the US per capita rate around 9,433,962 (still larger than the Swiss number, and the Swiss number factors in military usage).

Just the largest US ammunition contract is worth north of 8 billion...

8 billion dollars?

'The biggest contract went to Alliant Techsystems (ATK), the world"s largest ammunition maker, with an $8.48 billion deal to upgrade and operate an Army ammunition factory in Independence, Mo.'
I think that they're definitely spending more than 7 a year if they can plop that down on one ten-year contract.

You've misunderstood and misread then. I am not talking about dollars, I am talking about the amount of ammunition itself.

My bad; I checked the source, but it doesn't cite the ten billion stat. Since it's a recent article, it's almost certainly inflated by a substantial amount. Due to panic buys, there has been an immense spike in ammunition hording which makes ammo sales an unreliable stat for ammo usage.

http://www.forbes.com...
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
bsh1
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3/28/2016 11:53:35 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 11:48:57 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/28/2016 11:38:49 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/28/2016 11:36:40 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/28/2016 11:28:39 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/28/2016 11:27:23 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/28/2016 7:19:32 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/28/2016 7:12:46 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I would take issue on the ammo statistic, because the revenues from ammo manufacturers probably doesn't distinguish between private and government sales.

Neither does the Swiss information. So, that makes it an even comparison, because both numbers take into account private and military uses. Keep in mind that massive portion of Swiss gun ownership and usage is connected to their military.

But, I think, even if you estimated 3 billion (minus 7 billion--which is generous--for military usage), that puts the US per capita rate around 9,433,962 (still larger than the Swiss number, and the Swiss number factors in military usage).

Just the largest US ammunition contract is worth north of 8 billion...

8 billion dollars?

'The biggest contract went to Alliant Techsystems (ATK), the world"s largest ammunition maker, with an $8.48 billion deal to upgrade and operate an Army ammunition factory in Independence, Mo.'
I think that they're definitely spending more than 7 a year if they can plop that down on one ten-year contract.

You've misunderstood and misread then. I am not talking about dollars, I am talking about the amount of ammunition itself.

My bad; I checked the source, but it doesn't cite the ten billion stat.

Then you checked the wrong source or didn't read closely enough. Let me quote it: "However, since approximately 10 billion bullets are sold in the United States alone each year."

Since it's a recent article, it's almost certainly inflated by a substantial amount.

It looks like this source was from 2005, so it is hardly recent.
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Skepsikyma
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3/29/2016 12:01:19 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 11:53:35 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/28/2016 11:48:57 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/28/2016 11:38:49 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/28/2016 11:36:40 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

'The biggest contract went to Alliant Techsystems (ATK), the world"s largest ammunition maker, with an $8.48 billion deal to upgrade and operate an Army ammunition factory in Independence, Mo.'
I think that they're definitely spending more than 7 a year if they can plop that down on one ten-year contract.

You've misunderstood and misread then. I am not talking about dollars, I am talking about the amount of ammunition itself.

My bad; I checked the source, but it doesn't cite the ten billion stat.

Then you checked the wrong source or didn't read closely enough. Let me quote it: "However, since approximately 10 billion bullets are sold in the United States alone each year."

... that is the source I read. Chill out. It doesn't cite a source that stat, it just states it. I wanted to see which years that average was drawn from.

Since it's a recent article, it's almost certainly inflated by a substantial amount.

It looks like this source was from 2005, so it is hardly recent.

It's copyrighted 2005-2011 through a blog-wide footer, so the page in question could have been written at any time in that range. The hoarding craze started about 1/3 of the way into that range.

Also, how do you know that you're comparing apples to apples with the Swiss stat if you don't know what year the statistical average is drawn from?
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
bsh1
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3/29/2016 12:03:42 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 12:01:19 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Also, how do you know that you're comparing apples to apples with the Swiss stat if you don't know what year the statistical average is drawn from?

From what I know of both countries, these numbers seem right. The disparity seems right. When the data and logic go hand-in-hand, I see little reason to argue.
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Skepsikyma
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3/29/2016 12:07:52 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 12:03:42 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/29/2016 12:01:19 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Also, how do you know that you're comparing apples to apples with the Swiss stat if you don't know what year the statistical average is drawn from?

From what I know of both countries, these numbers seem right. The disparity seems right. When the data and logic go hand-in-hand, I see little reason to argue.

That seems like confirmation bias to me...
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
bsh1
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3/29/2016 12:11:24 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 12:07:52 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/29/2016 12:03:42 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/29/2016 12:01:19 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Also, how do you know that you're comparing apples to apples with the Swiss stat if you don't know what year the statistical average is drawn from?

From what I know of both countries, these numbers seem right. The disparity seems right. When the data and logic go hand-in-hand, I see little reason to argue.

That seems like confirmation bias to me...

I think that there is a risk, Skep, that for a casual discussion, you're overthinking this. Logically, there is reason to believe that the US uses guns more per capita. Even in a ammo-high year, the gap is unlikely to be that large, esp. with Swiss likely buying more recently too as a result of the refugee concerns. Empirically, the data supports the logic in the situation.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Skepsikyma
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3/29/2016 12:18:45 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 12:11:24 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/29/2016 12:07:52 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/29/2016 12:03:42 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/29/2016 12:01:19 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Also, how do you know that you're comparing apples to apples with the Swiss stat if you don't know what year the statistical average is drawn from?

From what I know of both countries, these numbers seem right. The disparity seems right. When the data and logic go hand-in-hand, I see little reason to argue.

That seems like confirmation bias to me...

I think that there is a risk, Skep, that for a casual discussion, you're overthinking this.
That doesn't mean anything. I'm analyzing that statistical evidence.

Logically, there is reason to believe that the US uses guns more per capita.
Why? When evidence hasn't been presented to that effect?

Even in a ammo-high year, the gap is unlikely to be that large, esp. with Swiss likely buying more recently too as a result of the refugee concerns.
If that's the case, then you're comparing stats that were collected around a decade apart (at the least), which throws any statistical analysis out of the window. A side-by-side comparison of Swiss and American ammunition tax receipts over two decades, eliminating outliers, would prove something about comparative ammo usage.

Empirically, the data supports the logic in the situation.
No it doesn't. No valid data has presented to support your conclusion. Logic doesn't enter into it at all; this is a classic case of 'truthiness'.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
bsh1
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3/29/2016 12:24:16 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 12:18:45 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

We can agree to disagree.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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Quadrunner
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3/29/2016 2:47:00 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
Hey guys don't take this the wrong way, but I was kind of hoping the forum would steer more towards things that might be potentially helpful, beneficial, awesome etc... and then we can discuss it.

Here's an example, and I admit its pretty extreme to happen overnight. Although I don't agree with mandatory military service in America, I think it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to make military service, or training for owning a firearm a requirement though. I think we could make a separate branch kind of like the national guard, that serves short term in the homeland only with a watered down basic training program. I don't think people who enlist in the militia should ever be in reserve to serve over seas like the army though.

I would agree with mandatory in-depth firearm training before being able to own a firearm, with a mental evaluation.

I would agree that people who wish to own a gun take a mandatory self defense training class, so that the laws, and need for situational awareness are universally understood.

I'd be willing to pay a couple hundred dollars for a class, as long as their was an option for people to be pardoned by a sheriff or something in emergencies.

I'd agree that people who don't have formal training in firearm safety should not be able to keep their firearms at home, shooting only in the presence of a licensed citizen till training is complete. Or maybe they could own firearms, but couldn't buy ammo without a license.

I wouldn't agree that we can't keep full auto's. Their just so awesome. I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of application process to get one though.

Those are just some ideas. Maybe their winners, maybe not. Wish I had time to go more in-depth tonight.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Greyparrot
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3/29/2016 3:01:42 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 2:47:00 AM, Quadrunner wrote:
Hey guys don't take this the wrong way, but I was kind of hoping the forum would steer more towards things that might be potentially helpful, beneficial, awesome etc... and then we can discuss it.

Here's an example, and I admit its pretty extreme to happen overnight. Although I don't agree with mandatory military service in America, I think it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to make military service, or training for owning a firearm a requirement though.

Why?
Quadrunner
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3/29/2016 3:15:09 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/28/2016 7:12:46 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/28/2016 5:16:45 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/28/2016 4:58:23 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/28/2016 4:35:37 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Switzerland is, frankly, nothing like the United States on a cultural level. It does not have a gun culture in the same way we do--sure, every male owns a gun, but males rarely use their guns. This is a striking difference to the kind of thing we find here, where gun-based recreation, hunting, and collecting are all popular. Certainly, the view that guns are a legitimate form of personal self-defense is significantly less pronounced in Europe (pretty much anywhere in Europe), when compared to the U.S.

Recreational shooting is widespread in Switzerland. Practice with guns is a popular form of recreation, and is encouraged by the government, particularly for the members of the militia.

I don't disagree. The difference is the purpose behind it and the frequency of use compared to the U.S. Regarding the purpose, "Unlike some other heavily armed nations, Switzerland's gun ownership is deeply rooted in a sense of patriotic duty and national identity. Weapons are kept at home because of the long-held belief that enemies could invade tiny Switzerland quickly, so every soldier had to be able to fight his way to his regiment"s assembly point." [http://world.time.com...] Gun use in Switzerland is more often (even at ranges) encouraged or engaged in as part of military practice or to ensure basic proficiency in case one ever was called up. It may be recreational, but, in many cases, the primary purpose of it is not recreation.

As for frequency, ammo can give us a clue. In the U.S., 10 billion rounds of ammo are sold each year. If you take that number and divide it by the 318 (US pop in millions), you get 31,446,540. In Switzerland, 75 million rounds of ammo are used each year. Doing the same mathematical procedure for Switzerland as for the US, produces the number 9,259,259. This is significantly less than the US number. Ammo sales and/or ammo use is a decent proxy for assessing the frequency of gun use on a per capita basis (because you need ammo for all kinds of gun activities), and it just doesn't compare between the two nations. Rarely is necessarily a comparative term. If I were comparing Switzerland to Europe, that word would be a bad fit. But comparing it to the US, I don't think it is a bad fit.

[http://www.ammocoding.com...]

I agree America should use a more formal militia for various reasons. I also agree that most Americans are more likely to own guns as trophies rather than as a national obligation. I would take issue on the ammo statistic, because the revenues from ammo manufacturers probably doesn't distinguish between private and government sales.

Yeah. I really like that they're used for fun and recreation, but the purpose of a firearm is to protect first and foremost, and I don't feel that's stressed enough in our culture currently, as many owners do indeed just have them as toys, and trophies, just for the sake of having them, without adequate training, and no guarantee of correct mindset, respect, and procedure throughout operation and ownership
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Quadrunner
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3/29/2016 3:17:26 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 3:01:42 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:47:00 AM, Quadrunner wrote:
Hey guys don't take this the wrong way, but I was kind of hoping the forum would steer more towards things that might be potentially helpful, beneficial, awesome etc... and then we can discuss it.

Here's an example, and I admit its pretty extreme to happen overnight. Although I don't agree with mandatory military service in America, I think it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to make military service, or training for owning a firearm a requirement though.

Why?

Why what?

-Clint Eastwood

Kelly's Heroes
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Greyparrot
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3/29/2016 3:18:13 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 3:17:26 AM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/29/2016 3:01:42 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/29/2016 2:47:00 AM, Quadrunner wrote:
Hey guys don't take this the wrong way, but I was kind of hoping the forum would steer more towards things that might be potentially helpful, beneficial, awesome etc... and then we can discuss it.

Here's an example, and I admit its pretty extreme to happen overnight. Although I don't agree with mandatory military service in America, I think it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to make military service, or training for owning a firearm a requirement though.

Why?

Why what?

-Clint Eastwood

Kelly's Heroes

no I mean, why do you think mandatory military service is a bad idea?