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Paul Ryan's primary challenger

thett3
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4/19/2016 1:01:35 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
Paul Ryan is facing a primary challenge from a wealthy businessman. I can't put into words how much I hope he loses--I would seriously consider trading a Trump presidency for a Paul Ryan loss in this primary.

What do you guys think? Is it possible that Paul Ryan gets Cantor'd (one of the most glorious upsets in political history)? I seriously hope so. I couldn't find any polls right now, so I have no idea what to expect and I don't usually pay attention to primary elections at that level.

http://www.washingtontimes.com...
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Raisor
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4/19/2016 3:14:11 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 1:01:35 AM, thett3 wrote:
Paul Ryan is facing a primary challenge from a wealthy businessman. I can't put into words how much I hope he loses--I would seriously consider trading a Trump presidency for a Paul Ryan loss in this primary.

What do you guys think? Is it possible that Paul Ryan gets Cantor'd (one of the most glorious upsets in political history)? I seriously hope so. I couldn't find any polls right now, so I have no idea what to expect and I don't usually pay attention to primary elections at that level.

http://www.washingtontimes.com...

How does an "anti-establishment" party function?

If there is no establishment, how does the party build coalitions and achieve party goals?

"Conservatism" is such an ill-defined ideology - as is "establishment." I want to blow my brains out every time I hear one person on the right say about another that they've "betrayed conservatism" or are a squish. I mean Ryan is actually advocating for budget plans that reduce government spending, plans that are toned down from what he'd ideally want in the name of practicality but are still political poison, but somehow he's just a puppet of big government.

Who else has done as much serious work to get actual legislation through Congress toward a long-term reduced budget?
thett3
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4/19/2016 3:27:45 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 3:14:11 AM, Raisor wrote:
At 4/19/2016 1:01:35 AM, thett3 wrote:
Paul Ryan is facing a primary challenge from a wealthy businessman. I can't put into words how much I hope he loses--I would seriously consider trading a Trump presidency for a Paul Ryan loss in this primary.

What do you guys think? Is it possible that Paul Ryan gets Cantor'd (one of the most glorious upsets in political history)? I seriously hope so. I couldn't find any polls right now, so I have no idea what to expect and I don't usually pay attention to primary elections at that level.

http://www.washingtontimes.com...

How does an "anti-establishment" party function?

If there is no establishment, how does the party build coalitions and achieve party goals?

"Conservatism" is such an ill-defined ideology - as is "establishment." I want to blow my brains out every time I hear one person on the right say about another that they've "betrayed conservatism" or are a squish. I mean Ryan is actually advocating for budget plans that reduce government spending

LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL

Like the omnibus, right? Face it, Ryan is a loser--and that's why you like him. He's controlled opposition. He stands athwart history halfheartedly yelling "stop" while slyly pocketing money from his owners, he doesn't do anything to actually fight for his purported ideology.

plans that are toned down from what he'd ideally want in the name of practicality but are still political poison, but somehow he's just a puppet of big government.

Who else has done as much serious work to get actual legislation through Congress toward a long-term reduced budget?

Paul Ryan is a proven loser. He's a traitor who won't even talk about slowing down harmful levels of immigration (http://www.breitbart.com...) and instead QUADRUPLED Hb-2 visas, who caved to Obama and passes a $1 trillion omnibus that benefits Republican voters in no way (while conveniently benefiting his corporatist owners who want cheap labor), and who funds sanctuary cities, refugee programs, who puts Israel's interests over the interests of the United States. He's a horrible politician in every way and a traitor to the Republican base...I only hope that they make him pay.

He should've learned his lesson after Biden humiliated him on national television and quit politics. Nobody likes or wants him. I hope he loses his seat, along with virtually every Republican in office.
DDO Vice President

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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4/19/2016 3:33:34 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
There is only one thing that will keep me from voting for Donald Trump in November (even if that means writing him in), and that's if Paul Ryan got the nomination at a brokered convention. I would happily vote for Hillary Clinton over Paul Ryan... a Paul Ryan presidency is the worst possible outcome

I seriously hope he loses his seat. That would make me laugh so hard
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#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Raisor
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4/19/2016 3:50:24 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 3:27:45 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/19/2016 3:14:11 AM, Raisor wrote:
At 4/19/2016 1:01:35 AM, thett3 wrote:
Paul Ryan is facing a primary challenge from a wealthy businessman. I can't put into words how much I hope he loses--I would seriously consider trading a Trump presidency for a Paul Ryan loss in this primary.

What do you guys think? Is it possible that Paul Ryan gets Cantor'd (one of the most glorious upsets in political history)? I seriously hope so. I couldn't find any polls right now, so I have no idea what to expect and I don't usually pay attention to primary elections at that level.

http://www.washingtontimes.com...

How does an "anti-establishment" party function?

If there is no establishment, how does the party build coalitions and achieve party goals?

"Conservatism" is such an ill-defined ideology - as is "establishment." I want to blow my brains out every time I hear one person on the right say about another that they've "betrayed conservatism" or are a squish. I mean Ryan is actually advocating for budget plans that reduce government spending

LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL

Like the omnibus, right? Face it, Ryan is a loser--and that's why you like him. He's controlled opposition. He stands athwart history halfheartedly yelling "stop" while slyly pocketing money from his owners, he doesn't do anything to actually fight for his purported ideology.


I don't like Ryan....

I think he is actually a fairly earnest politician, he seems like he is doing more than anyone else to try and prevent the GOP from falling apart- including taking the speakership which was a total sinking ship. No one could have picked up that job and kept the base happy.

How is the Path to Prosperity not fighting for his ideology? It cut healthcare spending- medicare and obamacare, cut taxes, set GDP targets for misc spending. I guess I'm just missing how that isn't in line with the stated goals of the small government movement.

plans that are toned down from what he'd ideally want in the name of practicality but are still political poison, but somehow he's just a puppet of big government.

Who else has done as much serious work to get actual legislation through Congress toward a long-term reduced budget?

Paul Ryan is a proven loser. He's a traitor who won't even talk about slowing down harmful levels of immigration (http://www.breitbart.com...) and instead QUADRUPLED Hb-2 visas, who caved to Obama and passes a $1 trillion omnibus that benefits Republican voters in no way (while conveniently benefiting his corporatist owners who want cheap labor), and who funds sanctuary cities, refugee programs, who puts Israel's interests over the interests of the United States. He's a horrible politician in every way and a traitor to the Republican base...I only hope that they make him pay.


Ya this is the ideological purity garbage I'm talking about. There is no reason Ryan has to agree with your particular view of immigration to be a conservative. To you a conservative requires a particular view on immigration and so it turns into a pissing contest over who is most pure. Ridiculous. I don't agree with most politicians on most things, that's fine and in fact it is a good thing. Between the both of us we are probably wrong on most of our policy opinions. We need people disagreeing and muddling forward through conflict, sh*tting all over people who are "impure" is what the Marxists did.

Not to mention a huge portion of the GOP base disagrees with you, especially on Israel....again nuts to the bogus betrayal language.

He should've learned his lesson after Biden humiliated him on national television and quit politics. Nobody likes or wants him. I hope he loses his seat, along with virtually every Republican in office.

The GOP literally begged him to take the speakership. The public is fickle, long term I think Ryan has a lot in him.
thett3
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4/19/2016 4:07:30 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 3:50:24 AM, Raisor wrote:
At 4/19/2016 3:27:45 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/19/2016 3:14:11 AM, Raisor wrote:
At 4/19/2016 1:01:35 AM, thett3 wrote:
Paul Ryan is facing a primary challenge from a wealthy businessman. I can't put into words how much I hope he loses--I would seriously consider trading a Trump presidency for a Paul Ryan loss in this primary.

What do you guys think? Is it possible that Paul Ryan gets Cantor'd (one of the most glorious upsets in political history)? I seriously hope so. I couldn't find any polls right now, so I have no idea what to expect and I don't usually pay attention to primary elections at that level.

http://www.washingtontimes.com...

How does an "anti-establishment" party function?

If there is no establishment, how does the party build coalitions and achieve party goals?

"Conservatism" is such an ill-defined ideology - as is "establishment." I want to blow my brains out every time I hear one person on the right say about another that they've "betrayed conservatism" or are a squish. I mean Ryan is actually advocating for budget plans that reduce government spending

LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL

Like the omnibus, right? Face it, Ryan is a loser--and that's why you like him. He's controlled opposition. He stands athwart history halfheartedly yelling "stop" while slyly pocketing money from his owners, he doesn't do anything to actually fight for his purported ideology.


I don't like Ryan....

I think he is actually a fairly earnest politician, he seems like he is doing more than anyone else to try and prevent the GOP from falling apart- including taking the speakership which was a total sinking ship. No one could have picked up that job and kept the base happy.

The GOP needs to fall apart and it will fall apart. It's a completely worthless party with a very close expiration date...I can't wait for the crack up. I just hope that more people get Cantor'd


How is the Path to Prosperity not fighting for his ideology? It cut healthcare spending- medicare and obamacare, cut taxes, set GDP targets for misc spending. I guess I'm just missing how that isn't in line with the stated goals of the small government movement.

Oh, you mean that thing that didn't pass and never had any chance of passing?

Every time it goes down to the wire and the Republicans have to play hard ball, they cave. Why? Well the first reason is that they're losers, but the bigger reason is that Obama actually has convictions, and they don't. They don't *want* to win.

The job of Republican politicians is to give lip service to the policies the base wants, then to surrender every single time and use the policies the democrats pass as a rallying cry to get re-elected and enrich themselves further. When was the last time conservatives had any victories? How'd that Bush presidency work out for conservatism?


plans that are toned down from what he'd ideally want in the name of practicality but are still political poison, but somehow he's just a puppet of big government.

Who else has done as much serious work to get actual legislation through Congress toward a long-term reduced budget?

Paul Ryan is a proven loser. He's a traitor who won't even talk about slowing down harmful levels of immigration (http://www.breitbart.com...) and instead QUADRUPLED Hb-2 visas, who caved to Obama and passes a $1 trillion omnibus that benefits Republican voters in no way (while conveniently benefiting his corporatist owners who want cheap labor), and who funds sanctuary cities, refugee programs, who puts Israel's interests over the interests of the United States. He's a horrible politician in every way and a traitor to the Republican base...I only hope that they make him pay.


Ya this is the ideological purity garbage I'm talking about. There is no reason Ryan has to agree with your particular view of immigration to be a conservative. To you a conservative requires a particular view on immigration and so it turns into a pissing contest over who is most pure. Ridiculous. I don't agree with most politicians on most things, that's fine and in fact it is a good thing. Between the both of us we are probably wrong on most of our policy opinions. We need people disagreeing and muddling forward through conflict, sh*tting all over people who are "impure" is what the Marxists did.

The GOP base has been begging their politicians for decades to do something about immigration, but they never have. Because their owners need the cheap labor, so what the plebeians want does not matter, it's just a matter of getting them to shut up.

You can talk all you want about "purity", but that just isn't an accurate reading of the situation...republican voters don't want a conservative purist. They want someone who will actually fight for them which people like Ryan never will. This is why Trump is so popular and is going to win the nomination despite being a moderate (and perhaps even a left leaning one). The GOP has done literally nothing to benefit Republican voters in over 30 years--other than a tiny handful of fringe issues that were handed to them on a silver platter (like partial birth abortion bans or gun control)


Not to mention a huge portion of the GOP base disagrees with you, especially on Israel....again nuts to the bogus betrayal language.

Disagrees with placing the interests of Israel over the United States? I don't think so. But that doesn't make him a traitor to the base--it makes him a traitor to the nation.


He should've learned his lesson after Biden humiliated him on national television and quit politics. Nobody likes or wants him. I hope he loses his seat, along with virtually every Republican in office.

The GOP literally begged him to take the speakership. The public is fickle, long term I think Ryan has a lot in him.

The GOP establishment did, not the base. I think you underestimate how much the base hates the establishment, lol. For example, Romney is significantly less popular among Republicans than Trump (http://www.huffingtonpost.com...)
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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4/19/2016 4:17:57 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
I should note that my criticisms refer to the national GOP....state Republican parties are often much better, although they still usually end up caving
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
YYW
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4/19/2016 4:25:53 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
I don't think the odds are in Nehlen's favor to win, and really I don't see him coming out of this looking good. I don't know much about him, but I know a lot about Paul Ryan, and the people who stand behind Paul Ryan. The people that stand behind Paul Ryan are much larger than the people who stand behind Nehlen. That all being out in the open, I'd be delighted if Nehlen was somehow able to pull off the primary win, which I'm pretty sure is impossible against his given opponent.

The reasons this is interesting, though, are two-fold. First, this has received no coverage in the mainstream media. Second, it's not going too. The media will not cover this mainly because of the presidential election, but it raises the issue of whether a primary challenger against Ryan might force that seat into Democrat hands.
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thett3
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4/19/2016 4:31:27 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 4:25:53 AM, YYW wrote:
I don't think the odds are in Nehlen's favor to win, and really I don't see him coming out of this looking good. I don't know much about him, but I know a lot about Paul Ryan, and the people who stand behind Paul Ryan. The people that stand behind Paul Ryan are much larger than the people who stand behind Nehlen. That all being out in the open, I'd be delighted if Nehlen was somehow able to pull off the primary win, which I'm pretty sure is impossible against his given opponent.

The reasons this is interesting, though, are two-fold. First, this has received no coverage in the mainstream media. Second, it's not going too. The media will not cover this mainly because of the presidential election, but it raises the issue of whether a primary challenger against Ryan might force that seat into Democrat hands.

Yeah but I'm hoping that another Eric Canton type situation could occur. Who would've expected the house majority leader to lose his primary?

I don't see it as likely, unfortunately. But it would give me great pleasure if it did happen...

What do you see happening if the GOP gave the nomination to Paul Ryan? I already said in this thread that it's the only outcome that would make me vote for Clinton. Obviously he would get destroyed, but the question is how badly?
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"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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4/19/2016 4:36:30 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 3:50:24 AM, Raisor wrote:

Trump isn't a Republican, he's a left leaning moderate who hijacked the GOP. And he's still going to win overwhelmingly.

This is how much the base hates the establishment and how little they care for ideological purity. The establishment argument regarding Trump's conservatism go something like this: "Well, he could be lying about his position on issue x." Which is true. But we know they're lying, especially on issues of immigration.

Watching the establishment try to deal with Trump has been hysterical. Their ineptitude knows no bounds...the limit simply does not exist
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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4/19/2016 4:38:57 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
Not to mention how wrong the establishment is about trade. I understand the libertarian arguments about free trade and I'm unsure about my position...but what I am sure of is that there has to be a better policy response to the people who lost their jobs to slave labor than to simply say "fck 'em". That's the current GOP position
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
YYW
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4/19/2016 4:53:06 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 4:31:27 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/19/2016 4:25:53 AM, YYW wrote:
I don't think the odds are in Nehlen's favor to win, and really I don't see him coming out of this looking good. I don't know much about him, but I know a lot about Paul Ryan, and the people who stand behind Paul Ryan. The people that stand behind Paul Ryan are much larger than the people who stand behind Nehlen. That all being out in the open, I'd be delighted if Nehlen was somehow able to pull off the primary win, which I'm pretty sure is impossible against his given opponent.

The reasons this is interesting, though, are two-fold. First, this has received no coverage in the mainstream media. Second, it's not going too. The media will not cover this mainly because of the presidential election, but it raises the issue of whether a primary challenger against Ryan might force that seat into Democrat hands.

Yeah but I'm hoping that another Eric Canton type situation could occur. Who would've expected the house majority leader to lose his primary?

I don't see it as likely, unfortunately. But it would give me great pleasure if it did happen...

Indeed.

What do you see happening if the GOP gave the nomination to Paul Ryan? I already said in this thread that it's the only outcome that would make me vote for Clinton. Obviously he would get destroyed, but the question is how badly?

I think I should preface that by saying that I think it's less likely than not that Ryan would get the nomination, even if (1) the rules were suspended (which currently prevent both him and Kasich from getting the nomination); and (2) they went to a second vote at a brokered convention. Kasich is more likely to take it there, because it looks less anti-Democratic.

If, however, Ryan did by some stroke of profound idiocy, take the nomination at a brokered convention where the rules were suspended, it would destroy the Republican party irreparably. Trump would run (justifiably) as a third party candidate. That would break the base from the establishment. The base would win in the end by preventing the Republican establishment from taking power.

(Note: the people who do not understand that the base and establishment both actually exist and are divergent factions within the Republican party, like Rince Priebus, are complete fools.)
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4/19/2016 11:18:22 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
Paul Ryan is a tool.
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4/19/2016 12:48:24 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 3:50:24 AM, Raisor wrote:

The GOP literally begged him to take the speakership. The public is fickle, long term I think Ryan has a lot in him.

Now that Rubio has completely flamed out, Paul Ryan is the #1 prospect the GOP have in their bullpen for upcoming elections unless you think Ted Cruz is 'establishment', which he isnt..... If Ryan faced any Dem in a general election matchup, he'd give them a hard run for their money way more than the two other previous GOP VP picks of Dick Cheney and Sarah Palin.....
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4/19/2016 1:46:43 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 4:38:57 AM, thett3 wrote:
Not to mention how wrong the establishment is about trade. I understand the libertarian arguments about free trade and I'm unsure about my position...but what I am sure of is that there has to be a better policy response to the people who lost their jobs to slave labor than to simply say "fck 'em". That's the current GOP position

From what I have heard from economists is that free trade plus government assistance to retool obsolete industries is the Utopian situation; but what actually ends up happening is that the government ends up subsidizing failing industries so that they can relocate to Mexico (auto industry) and somewhat preserving the failing union conglomerate voting base.... I think if we can't handle free trade pragmatically and responsibly then it may be better to scrap it. Basically taking the car keys away from a drunk teenager.

That said, looking at the Wisconsin presidential primaries, Cruz won handily, which likely means Ryan will too; because the Wisconsin voter hasn't yet felt outrage over the era of the Cuck.
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4/19/2016 2:00:11 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 3:50:24 AM, Raisor wrote:
Ya this is the ideological purity garbage I'm talking about. There is no reason Ryan has to agree with your particular view of immigration to be a conservative. To you a conservative requires a particular view on immigration and so it turns into a pissing contest over who is most pure. Ridiculous. I don't agree with most politicians on most things, that's fine and in fact it is a good thing. Between the both of us we are probably wrong on most of our policy opinions. We need people disagreeing and muddling forward through conflict, sh*tting all over people who are "impure" is what the Marxists did.

lol... this is funny. Conservatism is by definition ideological, and one iteration is not garbage wile another is not; likewise, there is an active debate among the right about what "counts" for conservatism, which the establishment themselves kicked off back in 2012. Though you're nothing close to a party guru, or particularly well versed in political history or current events so... perhaps you'll learn?

Naturally, in the same breath you quash disagreement over what conservatism is, and, then, say that "we need people disagreeing." Your observation that engaging in the discussion of what conservatism is all about (or, "purity" as you cast it) is bad because the Marxists did it, likewise, isn't especially clever or worthwhile.

The reason it's neither a clever or worthwhile observation is because all ideological groups are always already involved in identical discussions. To be a liberal, conservative, progressive, feminist, marxist, etc. is to place yourself in dialogue with others regarding the direction of what direction your ideology is going to take.

Many people aren't interested in that more intellectual activity, which is fine, but your implication that the activity is somehow particular to Marxists is inane.

Try again, Raisor.

Not to mention a huge portion of the GOP base disagrees with you, especially on Israel....again nuts to the bogus betrayal language.

The establishment really cares about Israel, and evangelical Christians have a jew fetish. Outside of that, no one really cares. But yes, the establishment (whose donors in the Defense industry make tremendous amounts of money from Israeli weapons subsidies, military aid, etc.) is strongly pro-Israel for financial reasons, and evangelical Christians are dumb enough to be persuaded that Israel represents more than it does to the United States.

He should've learned his lesson after Biden humiliated him on national television and quit politics. Nobody likes or wants him. I hope he loses his seat, along with virtually every Republican in office.

The GOP literally begged him to take the speakership. The public is fickle, long term I think Ryan has a lot in him.

No, the GOP did not "beg" him. He was drafted in by establishment Republicans after being made a "company man" during the Romney campaign.

But yes, he has a future... regretfully.
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4/19/2016 2:22:07 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 3:14:11 AM, Raisor wrote:
At 4/19/2016 1:01:35 AM, thett3 wrote:
Paul Ryan is facing a primary challenge from a wealthy businessman. I can't put into words how much I hope he loses--I would seriously consider trading a Trump presidency for a Paul Ryan loss in this primary.

What do you guys think? Is it possible that Paul Ryan gets Cantor'd (one of the most glorious upsets in political history)? I seriously hope so. I couldn't find any polls right now, so I have no idea what to expect and I don't usually pay attention to primary elections at that level.

http://www.washingtontimes.com...

How does an "anti-establishment" party function?

If there is no establishment, how does the party build coalitions and achieve party goals?

"Conservatism" is such an ill-defined ideology - as is "establishment." I want to blow my brains out every time I hear one person on the right say about another that they've "betrayed conservatism" or are a squish. I mean Ryan is actually advocating for budget plans that reduce government spending, plans that are toned down from what he'd ideally want in the name of practicality but are still political poison, but somehow he's just a puppet of big government.

Who else has done as much serious work to get actual legislation through Congress toward a long-term reduced budget?

I agree Raisor. The GOP has been molded into this cult like thing by talk radio, and any member that is not "pure" to Rush standards is racked over the coals. This has lead to them being completely ineffectual leaders. The base can no longer be pleased with anything. Couldn't have happened to a meaner bunch, but as been generally bad for us as a nation.
TBR
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4/19/2016 2:29:12 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 2:00:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/19/2016 3:50:24 AM, Raisor wrote:
Ya this is the ideological purity garbage I'm talking about. There is no reason Ryan has to agree with your particular view of immigration to be a conservative. To you a conservative requires a particular view on immigration and so it turns into a pissing contest over who is most pure. Ridiculous. I don't agree with most politicians on most things, that's fine and in fact it is a good thing. Between the both of us we are probably wrong on most of our policy opinions. We need people disagreeing and muddling forward through conflict, sh*tting all over people who are "impure" is what the Marxists did.

lol... this is funny. Conservatism is by definition ideological, and one iteration is not garbage wile another is not; likewise, there is an active debate among the right about what "counts" for conservatism, which the establishment themselves kicked off back in 2012. Though you're nothing close to a party guru, or particularly well versed in political history or current events so... perhaps you'll learn?

Naturally, in the same breath you quash disagreement over what conservatism is, and, then, say that "we need people disagreeing." Your observation that engaging in the discussion of what conservatism is all about (or, "purity" as you cast it) is bad because the Marxists did it, likewise, isn't especially clever or worthwhile.

The reason it's neither a clever or worthwhile observation is because all ideological groups are always already involved in identical discussions. To be a liberal, conservative, progressive, feminist, marxist, etc. is to place yourself in dialogue with others regarding the direction of what direction your ideology is going to take.

Many people aren't interested in that more intellectual activity, which is fine, but your implication that the activity is somehow particular to Marxists is inane.

Try again, Raisor.

Not to mention a huge portion of the GOP base disagrees with you, especially on Israel....again nuts to the bogus betrayal language.

The establishment really cares about Israel, and evangelical Christians have a jew fetish. Outside of that, no one really cares. But yes, the establishment (whose donors in the Defense industry make tremendous amounts of money from Israeli weapons subsidies, military aid, etc.) is strongly pro-Israel for financial reasons, and evangelical Christians are dumb enough to be persuaded that Israel represents more than it does to the United States.

He should've learned his lesson after Biden humiliated him on national television and quit politics. Nobody likes or wants him. I hope he loses his seat, along with virtually every Republican in office.

The GOP literally begged him to take the speakership. The public is fickle, long term I think Ryan has a lot in him.

No, the GOP did not "beg" him. He was drafted in by establishment Republicans after being made a "company man" during the Romney campaign.

But yes, he has a future... regretfully.

I disagree with the "purity" part of this.

For a very long time it was Democrats that were eating their young, now it is the GOP. The arms race towards perfection if being a complete a$$, and any sign of humanity means you are a RINO. This is the environment talk-radio built, and it has been disastrous. The party is nearly impotent, because the only thing that will please the base is sending the Pinkertons in to knock heads at union meetings, and burning the ACA in a quasi-religious ceremony.
Greyparrot
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4/19/2016 2:35:15 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 4:07:30 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/19/2016 3:50:24 AM, Raisor wrote:

Ya this is the ideological purity garbage I'm talking about. There is no reason Ryan has to agree with your particular view of immigration to be a conservative. To you a conservative requires a particular view on immigration and so it turns into a pissing contest over who is most pure. Ridiculous. I don't agree with most politicians on most things, that's fine and in fact it is a good thing. Between the both of us we are probably wrong on most of our policy opinions. We need people disagreeing and muddling forward through conflict, sh*tting all over people who are "impure" is what the Marxists did.

The GOP base has been begging their politicians for decades to do something about immigration, but they never have. Because their owners need the cheap labor, so what the plebeians want does not matter, it's just a matter of getting them to shut up.

You can talk all you want about "purity", but that just isn't an accurate reading of the situation...republican voters don't want a conservative purist. They want someone who will actually fight for them which people like Ryan never will. This is why Trump is so popular and is going to win the nomination despite being a moderate (and perhaps even a left leaning one). The GOP has done literally nothing to benefit Republican voters in over 30 years--other than a tiny handful of fringe issues that were handed to them on a silver platter (like partial birth abortion bans or gun control)


I think this needs to be stressed. Americans don't care anymore about being "true Scotsman conservatives."
They just want to be heard. The failure of the Conservative party must have its logical reprisal. RIP.
YYW
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4/19/2016 2:37:20 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 2:29:12 PM, TBR wrote:
At 4/19/2016 2:00:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/19/2016 3:50:24 AM, Raisor wrote:
Ya this is the ideological purity garbage I'm talking about. There is no reason Ryan has to agree with your particular view of immigration to be a conservative. To you a conservative requires a particular view on immigration and so it turns into a pissing contest over who is most pure. Ridiculous. I don't agree with most politicians on most things, that's fine and in fact it is a good thing. Between the both of us we are probably wrong on most of our policy opinions. We need people disagreeing and muddling forward through conflict, sh*tting all over people who are "impure" is what the Marxists did.

lol... this is funny. Conservatism is by definition ideological, and one iteration is not garbage wile another is not; likewise, there is an active debate among the right about what "counts" for conservatism, which the establishment themselves kicked off back in 2012. Though you're nothing close to a party guru, or particularly well versed in political history or current events so... perhaps you'll learn?

Naturally, in the same breath you quash disagreement over what conservatism is, and, then, say that "we need people disagreeing." Your observation that engaging in the discussion of what conservatism is all about (or, "purity" as you cast it) is bad because the Marxists did it, likewise, isn't especially clever or worthwhile.

The reason it's neither a clever or worthwhile observation is because all ideological groups are always already involved in identical discussions. To be a liberal, conservative, progressive, feminist, marxist, etc. is to place yourself in dialogue with others regarding the direction of what direction your ideology is going to take.

Many people aren't interested in that more intellectual activity, which is fine, but your implication that the activity is somehow particular to Marxists is inane.

Try again, Raisor.

Not to mention a huge portion of the GOP base disagrees with you, especially on Israel....again nuts to the bogus betrayal language.

The establishment really cares about Israel, and evangelical Christians have a jew fetish. Outside of that, no one really cares. But yes, the establishment (whose donors in the Defense industry make tremendous amounts of money from Israeli weapons subsidies, military aid, etc.) is strongly pro-Israel for financial reasons, and evangelical Christians are dumb enough to be persuaded that Israel represents more than it does to the United States.

He should've learned his lesson after Biden humiliated him on national television and quit politics. Nobody likes or wants him. I hope he loses his seat, along with virtually every Republican in office.

The GOP literally begged him to take the speakership. The public is fickle, long term I think Ryan has a lot in him.

No, the GOP did not "beg" him. He was drafted in by establishment Republicans after being made a "company man" during the Romney campaign.

But yes, he has a future... regretfully.

I disagree with the "purity" part of this.

For a very long time it was Democrats that were eating their young, now it is the GOP. The arms race towards perfection if being a complete a$$, and any sign of humanity means you are a RINO. This is the environment talk-radio built, and it has been disastrous. The party is nearly impotent, because the only thing that will please the base is sending the Pinkertons in to knock heads at union meetings, and burning the ACA in a quasi-religious ceremony.

No no no....

The problem is that the "purity" issue has changed, because some insurgents (Roger Ailes types) and thugs (Rush Limbaugh types) got ahold of the right-wing media. They've just changed the tune of that dialogue; the dialogue has always existed, and especially on the right. Your understanding that "it was once the Democrats" but now it's the GOP who are "eating their young" is therefore mistaken.
Tsar of DDO
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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4/19/2016 2:48:58 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 2:37:20 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/19/2016 2:29:12 PM, TBR wrote:
At 4/19/2016 2:00:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/19/2016 3:50:24 AM, Raisor wrote:
Ya this is the ideological purity garbage I'm talking about. There is no reason Ryan has to agree with your particular view of immigration to be a conservative. To you a conservative requires a particular view on immigration and so it turns into a pissing contest over who is most pure. Ridiculous. I don't agree with most politicians on most things, that's fine and in fact it is a good thing. Between the both of us we are probably wrong on most of our policy opinions. We need people disagreeing and muddling forward through conflict, sh*tting all over people who are "impure" is what the Marxists did.

lol... this is funny. Conservatism is by definition ideological, and one iteration is not garbage wile another is not; likewise, there is an active debate among the right about what "counts" for conservatism, which the establishment themselves kicked off back in 2012. Though you're nothing close to a party guru, or particularly well versed in political history or current events so... perhaps you'll learn?

Naturally, in the same breath you quash disagreement over what conservatism is, and, then, say that "we need people disagreeing." Your observation that engaging in the discussion of what conservatism is all about (or, "purity" as you cast it) is bad because the Marxists did it, likewise, isn't especially clever or worthwhile.

The reason it's neither a clever or worthwhile observation is because all ideological groups are always already involved in identical discussions. To be a liberal, conservative, progressive, feminist, marxist, etc. is to place yourself in dialogue with others regarding the direction of what direction your ideology is going to take.

Many people aren't interested in that more intellectual activity, which is fine, but your implication that the activity is somehow particular to Marxists is inane.

Try again, Raisor.

Not to mention a huge portion of the GOP base disagrees with you, especially on Israel....again nuts to the bogus betrayal language.

The establishment really cares about Israel, and evangelical Christians have a jew fetish. Outside of that, no one really cares. But yes, the establishment (whose donors in the Defense industry make tremendous amounts of money from Israeli weapons subsidies, military aid, etc.) is strongly pro-Israel for financial reasons, and evangelical Christians are dumb enough to be persuaded that Israel represents more than it does to the United States.

He should've learned his lesson after Biden humiliated him on national television and quit politics. Nobody likes or wants him. I hope he loses his seat, along with virtually every Republican in office.

The GOP literally begged him to take the speakership. The public is fickle, long term I think Ryan has a lot in him.

No, the GOP did not "beg" him. He was drafted in by establishment Republicans after being made a "company man" during the Romney campaign.

But yes, he has a future... regretfully.

I disagree with the "purity" part of this.

For a very long time it was Democrats that were eating their young, now it is the GOP. The arms race towards perfection if being a complete a$$, and any sign of humanity means you are a RINO. This is the environment talk-radio built, and it has been disastrous. The party is nearly impotent, because the only thing that will please the base is sending the Pinkertons in to knock heads at union meetings, and burning the ACA in a quasi-religious ceremony.

No no no....

The problem is that the "purity" issue has changed, because some insurgents (Roger Ailes types) and thugs (Rush Limbaugh types) got ahold of the right-wing media. They've just changed the tune of that dialogue; the dialogue has always existed, and especially on the right. Your understanding that "it was once the Democrats" but now it's the GOP who are "eating their young" is therefore mistaken.

The GOP of the 50's 60's 70's was not as inflexible. As a matter of fact, I would say the statesmen like Nelson Rockefeller, or Ford would be seen as impure today, yet were lauded as pragmatic and effective. At the same time, the Democrats were failing just like the GOP today - crushed by the weight of appealing to very vertical concerns of the likes of Abbie Hoffman.
Raisor
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4/19/2016 3:51:28 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 2:35:15 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/19/2016 4:07:30 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/19/2016 3:50:24 AM, Raisor wrote:

Ya this is the ideological purity garbage I'm talking about. There is no reason Ryan has to agree with your particular view of immigration to be a conservative. To you a conservative requires a particular view on immigration and so it turns into a pissing contest over who is most pure. Ridiculous. I don't agree with most politicians on most things, that's fine and in fact it is a good thing. Between the both of us we are probably wrong on most of our policy opinions. We need people disagreeing and muddling forward through conflict, sh*tting all over people who are "impure" is what the Marxists did.

The GOP base has been begging their politicians for decades to do something about immigration, but they never have. Because their owners need the cheap labor, so what the plebeians want does not matter, it's just a matter of getting them to shut up.

You can talk all you want about "purity", but that just isn't an accurate reading of the situation...republican voters don't want a conservative purist. They want someone who will actually fight for them which people like Ryan never will. This is why Trump is so popular and is going to win the nomination despite being a moderate (and perhaps even a left leaning one). The GOP has done literally nothing to benefit Republican voters in over 30 years--other than a tiny handful of fringe issues that were handed to them on a silver platter (like partial birth abortion bans or gun control)


I think this needs to be stressed. Americans don't care anymore about being "true Scotsman conservatives."
They just want to be heard. The failure of the Conservative party must have its logical reprisal. RIP.

I agree with you (and if I read him correctly, thett as well) that the rise of trump is a reflection of the GOP failure to pay attention to the interests and desires of the base, especially on immigration.

Where I disagree with you both is that people like Ryan are disingenuous in their attempts to limit spending. I think Ryan truly wants entitlement reform and smaller government. I think generally speaking the gop establishment (which doesn't exist but I'll use it as shorthand for the people in office) also wants this but is afraid of public reaction of the do something like make huge cuts to Medicare.

I also think that there is a huge amount of no true scotsmannin that goes on in the right. My point is that the right is so fractured and contains so many unrelated ideological requirements that it is a counterproductive rhetorical tactic.

Eg on the immigration issue, the right is divided. I agree that in that issue there are any in the GOP establishment that do not want the things trump and his base want. But to say tht these people are betraying conservatism is inaccurate, reagan was more in line with the establishment position.

I take umbrage with thett lumping in Ryan's deviance from thetts immigration position with ryans earnestness on other fiscal issues through the broad charge that he is a traitor to the right. They are separate issues and again, using single issues as disqualifiers of true conservatism is in my opinion not productive and harmful to the rights goals.

But yeah I guess I agree that the GOP in general needs to reorient itself to align with its base and that is a lot of what is going on right now.
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,313
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4/19/2016 9:33:52 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 4:17:57 AM, thett3 wrote:
I should note that my criticisms refer to the national GOP....state Republican parties are often much better, although they still usually end up caving

With what party, then, do you align?

What's your political ideology?
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
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"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
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ColeTrain
Posts: 4,313
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4/19/2016 9:35:08 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 1:01:35 AM, thett3 wrote:

Ryan said he wasn't running. You think he will?
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
Raisor
Posts: 4,461
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4/19/2016 10:05:14 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 9:35:08 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 4/19/2016 1:01:35 AM, thett3 wrote:

Ryan said he wasn't running. You think he will?

OP is about congressional race not presidential.
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,313
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4/19/2016 10:34:49 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 10:05:14 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 4/19/2016 9:35:08 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 4/19/2016 1:01:35 AM, thett3 wrote:

Ryan said he wasn't running. You think he will?

OP is about congressional race not presidential.

Lol... I'm so retarded.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
Raisor
Posts: 4,461
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4/19/2016 11:04:47 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 10:34:49 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 4/19/2016 10:05:14 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 4/19/2016 9:35:08 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 4/19/2016 1:01:35 AM, thett3 wrote:

Ryan said he wasn't running. You think he will?

OP is about congressional race not presidential.

Lol... I'm so retarded.

I'm sure I've done the same or worse lol
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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4/19/2016 11:07:47 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 1:01:35 AM, thett3 wrote:
Paul Ryan is facing a primary challenge from a wealthy businessman. I can't put into words how much I hope he loses--I would seriously consider trading a Trump presidency for a Paul Ryan loss in this primary.

What do you guys think? Is it possible that Paul Ryan gets Cantor'd (one of the most glorious upsets in political history)? I seriously hope so. I couldn't find any polls right now, so I have no idea what to expect and I don't usually pay attention to primary elections at that level.

http://www.washingtontimes.com...

Would it be better if he got Budd Dwyered (set up for a crime he didn't commit, by democrats so you kill yourself on live tv)
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,313
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4/20/2016 1:41:12 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 11:04:47 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 4/19/2016 10:34:49 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 4/19/2016 10:05:14 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 4/19/2016 9:35:08 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 4/19/2016 1:01:35 AM, thett3 wrote:

Ryan said he wasn't running. You think he will?

OP is about congressional race not presidential.

Lol... I'm so retarded.

I'm sure I've done the same or worse lol

Eh. Whatever. :P
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
TN05
Posts: 4,492
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4/20/2016 3:07:21 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 1:01:35 AM, thett3 wrote:
Paul Ryan is facing a primary challenge from a wealthy businessman. I can't put into words how much I hope he loses--I would seriously consider trading a Trump presidency for a Paul Ryan loss in this primary.

Lol, this is a no-story. He's running an anti-trade, anti-immigration campaign in southeastern Wisconsin. Ryan's district gave Trump only 32% of the vote.

What do you guys think? Is it possible that Paul Ryan gets Cantor'd (one of the most glorious upsets in political history)? I seriously hope so. I couldn't find any polls right now, so I have no idea what to expect and I don't usually pay attention to primary elections at that level.

Nope. His district likes him (voted for him even when it supported Obama in '08) and there is no indication this is a grassroots in-district effort. It's mostly an effort by out-of-state agitators and Trumpkins. Ryan has money, Wisconsin has a solid conservative media and party, and the district is not pro-Trump or populist territory.

http://www.washingtontimes.com...