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What Does "Integration" Mean?

SolonKR
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4/19/2016 2:07:47 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
This is a follow up to my last topic about immigration. Many people talk about the threat immigrants pose to the US because they don't "integrate" into society.

So, what does it mean to you to be "integrated"?

In my view, I see integration as possessing no significant obstacles to mingling with most US citizens. For example, speaking other languages publicly doesn't signify lack of integration, but not knowing how to speak passable English does, as that's a significant barrier to communication and American cultural influence. Clothing doesn't create problems, but an inability to identify with fellow Americans does. I prefer this line because, in my view, it is the best mindset for helping immigrants succeed without acting in an exclusionary manner, which breeds extremism.
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
Runn92
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4/19/2016 2:31:28 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
Integration means everybody in the world has a right to move to white majority countries regardless of the social and economic consequences because white guilt.
SpiritandTruth
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4/19/2016 2:36:05 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
I forgot what was written on the Statue of Liberty. Does anyone remember?
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Runn92
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4/19/2016 2:37:50 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 2:36:05 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
I forgot what was written on the Statue of Liberty. Does anyone remember?

Of course, the writing statue of liberty, written by a Jewish Socialist in the late 1800, is the supreme law of the land. Much more important than the constitution!
SpiritandTruth
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4/19/2016 2:39:53 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
Ouch, that hurt
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
PetersSmith
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4/19/2016 2:42:00 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 2:07:47 AM, SolonKR wrote:
This is a follow up to my last topic about immigration. Many people talk about the threat immigrants pose to the US because they don't "integrate" into society.

So, what does it mean to you to be "integrated"?

In my view, I see integration as possessing no significant obstacles to mingling with most US citizens. For example, speaking other languages publicly doesn't signify lack of integration, but not knowing how to speak passable English does, as that's a significant barrier to communication and American cultural influence. Clothing doesn't create problems, but an inability to identify with fellow Americans does. I prefer this line because, in my view, it is the best mindset for helping immigrants succeed without acting in an exclusionary manner, which breeds extremism.

Something like this I'm presuming https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

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Runn92
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4/19/2016 2:42:54 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 2:42:00 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/19/2016 2:07:47 AM, SolonKR wrote:
This is a follow up to my last topic about immigration. Many people talk about the threat immigrants pose to the US because they don't "integrate" into society.

So, what does it mean to you to be "integrated"?

In my view, I see integration as possessing no significant obstacles to mingling with most US citizens. For example, speaking other languages publicly doesn't signify lack of integration, but not knowing how to speak passable English does, as that's a significant barrier to communication and American cultural influence. Clothing doesn't create problems, but an inability to identify with fellow Americans does. I prefer this line because, in my view, it is the best mindset for helping immigrants succeed without acting in an exclusionary manner, which breeds extremism.

Something like this I'm presuming https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...

What's your point?????
SpiritandTruth
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4/19/2016 2:43:55 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
I'm an American, and I sure the hell don't feel integrated.

Strangely enough, something about that seems very 'Murica.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Runn92
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4/19/2016 2:45:35 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 2:43:55 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
I'm an American, and I sure the hell don't feel integrated.

Strangely enough, something about that seems very 'Murica.

America the great!!!!
PetersSmith
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4/19/2016 2:45:57 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 2:42:54 AM, Runn92 wrote:
At 4/19/2016 2:42:00 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/19/2016 2:07:47 AM, SolonKR wrote:
This is a follow up to my last topic about immigration. Many people talk about the threat immigrants pose to the US because they don't "integrate" into society.

So, what does it mean to you to be "integrated"?

In my view, I see integration as possessing no significant obstacles to mingling with most US citizens. For example, speaking other languages publicly doesn't signify lack of integration, but not knowing how to speak passable English does, as that's a significant barrier to communication and American cultural influence. Clothing doesn't create problems, but an inability to identify with fellow Americans does. I prefer this line because, in my view, it is the best mindset for helping immigrants succeed without acting in an exclusionary manner, which breeds extremism.

Something like this I'm presuming https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...


What's your point?????

My "point" is that that's an example of integration. http://farm4.static.flickr.com... https://upload.wikimedia.org...
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
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SolonKR
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4/19/2016 3:04:44 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 2:42:00 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
Something like this I'm presuming https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...

Perhaps I ought to clarify. Certainly, there are still people who see that picture as a desirable outcome (myself not included), but I'm more generally asking for peoples' own feelings on the matter--what would make you consider an immigrant sufficiently immersed in society to not cause undesirable (the inclusion of that word is important) social tension?

Generally, this tends to apply with peoples' thoughts toward Muslim immigrants specifically. I recall reading something very fascinating that argued that while first-generation immigrants in Europe were generally very upstanding citizens, something happened that caused succeeding generations to increasingly radicalize. The issue is this--how do we ensure that this radicalization doesn't happen?
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
Runn92
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4/19/2016 4:38:58 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 2:45:57 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/19/2016 2:42:54 AM, Runn92 wrote:
At 4/19/2016 2:42:00 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/19/2016 2:07:47 AM, SolonKR wrote:
This is a follow up to my last topic about immigration. Many people talk about the threat immigrants pose to the US because they don't "integrate" into society.

So, what does it mean to you to be "integrated"?

In my view, I see integration as possessing no significant obstacles to mingling with most US citizens. For example, speaking other languages publicly doesn't signify lack of integration, but not knowing how to speak passable English does, as that's a significant barrier to communication and American cultural influence. Clothing doesn't create problems, but an inability to identify with fellow Americans does. I prefer this line because, in my view, it is the best mindset for helping immigrants succeed without acting in an exclusionary manner, which breeds extremism.

Something like this I'm presuming https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...


What's your point?????

My "point" is that that's an example of integration. http://farm4.static.flickr.com... https://upload.wikimedia.org...

Ah....
Runn92
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4/19/2016 4:39:47 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 3:04:44 AM, SolonKR wrote:
At 4/19/2016 2:42:00 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
Something like this I'm presuming https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...

Perhaps I ought to clarify. Certainly, there are still people who see that picture as a desirable outcome (myself not included), but I'm more generally asking for peoples' own feelings on the matter--what would make you consider an immigrant sufficiently immersed in society to not cause undesirable (the inclusion of that word is important) social tension?

Generally, this tends to apply with peoples' thoughts toward Muslim immigrants specifically. I recall reading something very fascinating that argued that while first-generation immigrants in Europe were generally very upstanding citizens, something happened that caused succeeding generations to increasingly radicalize. The issue is this--how do we ensure that this radicalization doesn't happen?

Maybe we don't let many immigrate to the west so it won't be an issue at all for us what their kids do? Or is that too radical??
someloser
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4/19/2016 4:41:17 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
Still writing reply to previous thread

At 4/19/2016 2:07:47 AM, SolonKR wrote:
So, what does it mean to you to be "integrated"?
To be culturally "in". That is, to not be distinguished by anything except for immigrant status.

Of course, I'm not aware of any evidence that this can happen with large numbers of people.

At 4/19/2016 3:04:44 AM, SolonKR wrote:
I recall reading something very fascinating that argued that while first-generation immigrants in Europe were generally very upstanding citizens, something happened that caused succeeding generations to increasingly radicalize. The issue is this--how do we ensure that this radicalization doesn't happen?
You see something similar with 1st vs 2nd (and onward) generation Hispanic immigrants in the US. The latter tend to have significantly higher crime rates than the former.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
EndarkenedRationalist
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4/19/2016 7:40:08 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
Integration really isn't a racial thing. Any number of immigrants would theoretically be able to come in and integrate successfully into society. There are a few reasons it doesn't work out this way. Well, there are two primary and connected ones, so I'll talk about those. First is the rate of immigration. It's high at present - too high - and too rapid. Immigration should never, ever, ever be halted completely. It is the lifeblood of civilization. But it does need to be controlled. Otherwise it'll only increase racial tensions and conflicts. The second is socioeconomic environments. Many of these immigrants are coming in and winding up shoved into poor neighborhoods, ghettos, even. To foster integration, we need to address the socioeconomic issues facing the country. With the rate of immigration being so high, the government doesn't have the infrastructure to support/sustain huge number of immigrants, which only exacerbates the problem.
1harderthanyouthink
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4/19/2016 2:32:58 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 2:37:50 AM, Runn92 wrote:
At 4/19/2016 2:36:05 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
I forgot what was written on the Statue of Liberty. Does anyone remember?

Of course, the writing statue of liberty, written by a Jewish Socialist in the late 1800, is the supreme law of the land. Much more important than the constitution!

I didn't know the Constitution gave an outline to immigration and integration.
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And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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4/19/2016 2:51:36 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 2:07:47 AM, SolonKR wrote:
This is a follow up to my last topic about immigration. Many people talk about the threat immigrants pose to the US because they don't "integrate" into society.

So, what does it mean to you to be "integrated"?

In my view, I see integration as possessing no significant obstacles to mingling with most US citizens. For example, speaking other languages publicly doesn't signify lack of integration, but not knowing how to speak passable English does, as that's a significant barrier to communication and American cultural influence. Clothing doesn't create problems, but an inability to identify with fellow Americans does. I prefer this line because, in my view, it is the best mindset for helping immigrants succeed without acting in an exclusionary manner, which breeds extremism.
[https://www.google.com...]
Definition of integration. 1 : the act or process or an instance of integrating: as a : incorporation as equals into society or an organization of individuals of different groups (as races) b : coordination of mental processes into a normal effective personality or with the environment.

http://www.epi.org...
http://exhibitions.nypl.org...
During the 1970's, when I was in grade school, integration was a common theme concerning integrating schools. I attended a racially integrated school in Milwaukee's inner city, that was truly integrated. Many people think integration means assimilation, but my understanding of integration that I received as a child, was that we learn from each other as equals. In this way it wasn't so much about minorities assimilating into the mainstream, but more about recognizing minorities as an equals, and exchanging values based on equality.

Society today is at a loss for thinking minorities should assimilate into the mainstream because it assumes superiority of the mainstream culture, rather than realizing the value of minority's cultures and wanting to incorporate those values into the mainstream, as well as share some values of the mainstream culture with minorities. It is tragic to our society that the ideas about integration of the 1970's was transformed into ideas about minorities merely assimilating.
Greyparrot
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4/19/2016 3:11:35 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 3:04:44 AM, SolonKR wrote:
At 4/19/2016 2:42:00 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
Something like this I'm presuming https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...

Perhaps I ought to clarify. Certainly, there are still people who see that picture as a desirable outcome (myself not included), but I'm more generally asking for peoples' own feelings on the matter--what would make you consider an immigrant sufficiently immersed in society to not cause undesirable (the inclusion of that word is important) social tension?

Generally, this tends to apply with peoples' thoughts toward Muslim immigrants specifically. I recall reading something very fascinating that argued that while first-generation immigrants in Europe were generally very upstanding citizens, something happened that caused succeeding generations to increasingly radicalize. The issue is this--how do we ensure that this radicalization doesn't happen?

Assimilation into accepted cultural norms depending on where you want to live in America. (New York Values for example)
And unwavering allegiance to the rule of American law. (That disqualifies all illegals)

No matter where you come from or where you live now, adherence to the rule of law is the only one thing you can point at and say it makes one an American.
Greyparrot
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4/19/2016 3:14:17 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 2:51:36 PM, Emmarie wrote:

During the 1970's, when I was in grade school, integration was a common theme concerning integrating schools. I attended a racially integrated school in Milwaukee's inner city, that was truly integrated. Many people think integration means assimilation, but my understanding of integration that I received as a child, was that we learn from each other as equals. In this way it wasn't so much about minorities assimilating into the mainstream, but more about recognizing minorities as an equals, and exchanging values based on equality.

Society today is at a loss for thinking minorities should assimilate into the mainstream because it assumes superiority of the mainstream culture, rather than realizing the value of minority's cultures and wanting to incorporate those values into the mainstream, as well as share some values of the mainstream culture with minorities. It is tragic to our society that the ideas about integration of the 1970's was transformed into ideas about minorities merely assimilating.

I grew up in the 70's too in an integrated school where whites were a minority. That was back in a time where cultural approbation was actually encouraged, if you can believe that...
Emmarie
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4/19/2016 3:18:13 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 3:14:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/19/2016 2:51:36 PM, Emmarie wrote:

During the 1970's, when I was in grade school, integration was a common theme concerning integrating schools. I attended a racially integrated school in Milwaukee's inner city, that was truly integrated. Many people think integration means assimilation, but my understanding of integration that I received as a child, was that we learn from each other as equals. In this way it wasn't so much about minorities assimilating into the mainstream, but more about recognizing minorities as an equals, and exchanging values based on equality.

Society today is at a loss for thinking minorities should assimilate into the mainstream because it assumes superiority of the mainstream culture, rather than realizing the value of minority's cultures and wanting to incorporate those values into the mainstream, as well as share some values of the mainstream culture with minorities. It is tragic to our society that the ideas about integration of the 1970's was transformed into ideas about minorities merely assimilating.

I grew up in the 70's too in an integrated school where whites were a minority. That was back in a time where cultural approbation was actually encouraged, if you can believe that...

Yes, I remember and I'm a better person because of it!
Greyparrot
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4/19/2016 3:20:03 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 3:18:13 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 4/19/2016 3:14:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/19/2016 2:51:36 PM, Emmarie wrote:

During the 1970's, when I was in grade school, integration was a common theme concerning integrating schools. I attended a racially integrated school in Milwaukee's inner city, that was truly integrated. Many people think integration means assimilation, but my understanding of integration that I received as a child, was that we learn from each other as equals. In this way it wasn't so much about minorities assimilating into the mainstream, but more about recognizing minorities as an equals, and exchanging values based on equality.

Society today is at a loss for thinking minorities should assimilate into the mainstream because it assumes superiority of the mainstream culture, rather than realizing the value of minority's cultures and wanting to incorporate those values into the mainstream, as well as share some values of the mainstream culture with minorities. It is tragic to our society that the ideas about integration of the 1970's was transformed into ideas about minorities merely assimilating.

I grew up in the 70's too in an integrated school where whites were a minority. That was back in a time where cultural approbation was actually encouraged, if you can believe that...

Yes, I remember and I'm a better person because of it!

I agree, I think the latest craze of denying approbation is only throwing us back into more segregated cloisters.
Emmarie
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4/19/2016 3:38:00 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 3:20:03 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/19/2016 3:18:13 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 4/19/2016 3:14:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/19/2016 2:51:36 PM, Emmarie wrote:

During the 1970's, when I was in grade school, integration was a common theme concerning integrating schools. I attended a racially integrated school in Milwaukee's inner city, that was truly integrated. Many people think integration means assimilation, but my understanding of integration that I received as a child, was that we learn from each other as equals. In this way it wasn't so much about minorities assimilating into the mainstream, but more about recognizing minorities as an equals, and exchanging values based on equality.

Society today is at a loss for thinking minorities should assimilate into the mainstream because it assumes superiority of the mainstream culture, rather than realizing the value of minority's cultures and wanting to incorporate those values into the mainstream, as well as share some values of the mainstream culture with minorities. It is tragic to our society that the ideas about integration of the 1970's was transformed into ideas about minorities merely assimilating.

I grew up in the 70's too in an integrated school where whites were a minority. That was back in a time where cultural approbation was actually encouraged, if you can believe that...

Yes, I remember and I'm a better person because of it!

I agree, I think the latest craze of denying approbation is only throwing us back into more segregated cloisters.

The values that I learned: {1} How to express myself freely [2] Be true to myself and others [3] Word is Bond [4] Not to judge based on appearance or communication style [5] (my favorite) To Dance! [6] Passive Resistance [7] Heated verbal disputes rarely lead to violence (as much as some people think people from the hood inflict violence on anyone who talks sh!t, I'd be dead or beaten if that were the case) [8] Conflict resolution (people who I've had heated verbal exchanges with ended up being people who I developed mutual respect with.) [9] Creative collaboration in music and writing! There's many more but those are the most important.
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,325
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4/19/2016 10:44:54 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 3:11:35 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/19/2016 3:04:44 AM, SolonKR wrote:
At 4/19/2016 2:42:00 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
Something like this I'm presuming https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...

Perhaps I ought to clarify. Certainly, there are still people who see that picture as a desirable outcome (myself not included), but I'm more generally asking for peoples' own feelings on the matter--what would make you consider an immigrant sufficiently immersed in society to not cause undesirable (the inclusion of that word is important) social tension?

Generally, this tends to apply with peoples' thoughts toward Muslim immigrants specifically. I recall reading something very fascinating that argued that while first-generation immigrants in Europe were generally very upstanding citizens, something happened that caused succeeding generations to increasingly radicalize. The issue is this--how do we ensure that this radicalization doesn't happen?

Assimilation into accepted cultural norms depending on where you want to live in America. (New York Values for example)

I agree.

And unwavering allegiance to the rule of American law. (That disqualifies all illegals)

I agree.

No matter where you come from or where you live now, adherence to the rule of law is the only one thing you can point at and say it makes one an American.

I agree.

To add to that: I think integration is often accused of being unfair. Yet, I disagree. If one is to enter a country by crossing the borders (however artificial they may be), why is it too much to accept the need to alter your lifestyle to reflect your environment? This assumes laws are in place, which they are, to prohibit open border policies. I don't at all believe it is unfair to suppose immigrants will assimilate and integrate into the culture once they pass over the borders. For one, it's a matter of respect for the new area in which you move, and for two, some integration is often required to adhere to the law.
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ColeTrain
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4/19/2016 10:48:36 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 7:40:08 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Integration really isn't a racial thing.

You're right, and it annoys me when people make it one. Just because a lot of Mexicans don't or aren't able to integrate into society doesn't mean it is racist to regulate their entrance, nor does it make the issue ABOUT race.

Any number of immigrants would theoretically be able to come in and integrate successfully into society. There are a few reasons it doesn't work out this way. Well, there are two primary and connected ones, so I'll talk about those. First is the rate of immigration. It's high at present - too high - and too rapid. Immigration should never, ever, ever be halted completely. It is the lifeblood of civilization. But it does need to be controlled. Otherwise it'll only increase racial tensions and conflicts. The second is socioeconomic environments. Many of these immigrants are coming in and winding up shoved into poor neighborhoods, ghettos, even. To foster integration, we need to address the socioeconomic issues facing the country. With the rate of immigration being so high, the government doesn't have the infrastructure to support/sustain huge number of immigrants, which only exacerbates the problem.

I never realized you were pro-immigration and pro-regulation of immigration, too. That's nice. :)
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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4/20/2016 12:19:20 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 2:07:47 AM, SolonKR wrote:
This is a follow up to my last topic about immigration. Many people talk about the threat immigrants pose to the US because they don't "integrate" into society.

So, what does it mean to you to be "integrated"?

In my view, I see integration as possessing no significant obstacles to mingling with most US citizens. For example, speaking other languages publicly doesn't signify lack of integration, but not knowing how to speak passable English does, as that's a significant barrier to communication and American cultural influence. Clothing doesn't create problems, but an inability to identify with fellow Americans does. I prefer this line because, in my view, it is the best mindset for helping immigrants succeed without acting in an exclusionary manner, which breeds extremism.

To have social connections with the population of your new home country, not just exclusively among other similar migrants. To speak the language of the area which you immigrated to. To follow the laws of your new country. The problem with the first is that bad immigration policy tends to cause immigrants to cluster together and become insular, often in impoverished areas, which reduces the necessity of learning English, which leads to further societal alienation and erodes respect for the law which is normally rooted in a sense of belonging and ownership to ones nation. Integration requires interaction with Americas and a degree of social diffusion.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
SolonKR
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4/20/2016 6:51:33 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 4:41:17 AM, someloser wrote:
At 4/19/2016 2:07:47 AM, SolonKR wrote:
So, what does it mean to you to be "integrated"?
To be culturally "in". That is, to not be distinguished by anything except for immigrant status.

The issue I have with this is that literally everyone on the face of the planet can be distinguished by something. Hobbies, cultural tastes, interests, political leanings, etc. Can you be more specific?

Of course, I'm not aware of any evidence that this can happen with large numbers of people.

The Ottomans were generally at least successful with regard to managing varied ethnic groups, as was the HRE. Considering the enormous diversity in the US, we've not done too shabby, either. One civil war and two decades of massive civil strife (1850's, 1960's) in 240 years is a pretty stable track record.

At 4/19/2016 3:04:44 AM, SolonKR wrote:
I recall reading something very fascinating that argued that while first-generation immigrants in Europe were generally very upstanding citizens, something happened that caused succeeding generations to increasingly radicalize. The issue is this--how do we ensure that this radicalization doesn't happen?
You see something similar with 1st vs 2nd (and onward) generation Hispanic immigrants in the US. The latter tend to have significantly higher crime rates than the former.

Would this not indicate that immigrants are not the problem; rather, governments create or facilitate artificial divisions that become problems?
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
SolonKR
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4/20/2016 6:54:56 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 7:40:08 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Integration really isn't a racial thing. Any number of immigrants would theoretically be able to come in and integrate successfully into society. There are a few reasons it doesn't work out this way. Well, there are two primary and connected ones, so I'll talk about those. First is the rate of immigration. It's high at present - too high - and too rapid. Immigration should never, ever, ever be halted completely. It is the lifeblood of civilization. But it does need to be controlled. Otherwise it'll only increase racial tensions and conflicts.

Why is the current rate too high and economically unsustainable, especially given that you've said that any number of immigrants could theoretically culturally integrate (conflicting with the statement about "racial tensions and conflicts"), and what's a better rate?

The second is socioeconomic environments. Many of these immigrants are coming in and winding up shoved into poor neighborhoods, ghettos, even. To foster integration, we need to address the socioeconomic issues facing the country. With the rate of immigration being so high, the government doesn't have the infrastructure to support/sustain huge number of immigrants, which only exacerbates the problem.

Agree, at least with the first half. For the second, see above.
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SolonKR
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4/20/2016 6:58:14 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/19/2016 3:11:35 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
No matter where you come from or where you live now, adherence to the rule of law is the only one thing you can point at and say it makes one an American.

https://www.youtube.com...

Are native-born 20th generation felons not Americans? Certainly, I'm not advocating that people break laws, but this is an important question for hashing out criteria for what it means to be "integrated".
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3