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LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!!! NOM NOMz!!!

studentathletechristian8
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12/2/2010 6:54:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Today, a kid in my class seriously told me to "love it or leave it."

I merely said that the United States military is much too expansive, and that the government essentially oppresses us. Further, I said that the US military as a whole really isn't necessary, at least to its current extent, if it weren't for the poor diplomatic choices by Congress and past presidents for the last fifty to seventy-five years.

Of course, I was speaking to a pro-war, conservative fellow in my classroom, so he went with the hackneyed, ignorant expression, "Love it or leave it." Great articulation.

Do little annoying comments like these piss you guys off on occasion?
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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12/2/2010 6:56:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
In reference to the WikiLeaks dilemma, my peer said that there are things that government should only know, and that no one should be able to release this sort of information to the American public. I think this is utter bullsh!t. Look at what's happened in the past. Gulf of Tonkin instantly comes to mind, and I am sure there are hundreds of other cases that are quite comparable.

I desire to stay informed of what is truly happening in the world. It seems this kid supports the government to an extent in which he is giving the monster supreme power. Ridiculous.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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12/2/2010 7:01:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
its frustrating that the vote of people who have clearly given so much thought to the issue is of equal weight to mine. sorry if that sounds arrogant, but theres no real response available for a soundbite presented as an opinion...
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
studentathletechristian8
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12/2/2010 7:03:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/2/2010 7:01:55 PM, belle wrote:
its frustrating that the vote of people who have clearly given so much thought to the issue is of equal weight to mine. sorry if that sounds arrogant, but theres no real response available for a soundbite presented as an opinion...

Could you elaborate please?
LaissezFaire
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12/2/2010 7:03:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Here's what I do when talking to people like that (if I'm not so angry that I'm lost for words):

Ask him what the founding fathers would have thought of his absurd ultimatum. When they lived under an oppressive government, they didn't 'love it or leave it.' They could have gone West or to a different country or whatever--but they didn't. They fought for their freedom and abolished the tyrannical regime they lived under. That's how real Americans respond to living under an oppressive government.
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: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
belle
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12/2/2010 7:06:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/2/2010 7:03:04 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
At 12/2/2010 7:01:55 PM, belle wrote:
its frustrating that the vote of people who have clearly given so much thought to the issue is of equal weight to mine. sorry if that sounds arrogant, but theres no real response available for a soundbite presented as an opinion...

Could you elaborate please?

seriously? lol

if you honestly take the attitude that an institution you nominally have a voice in should either be accepted uncritically as infallible or abandoned, you have no need of a vote. futhermore, such a person is likely to vote for what the politicians tell them to rather than thinking about what would be best for the people who live here. its the attitude of blind acceptance that really bugs me.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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12/2/2010 7:10:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/2/2010 7:06:51 PM, belle wrote:
At 12/2/2010 7:03:04 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
At 12/2/2010 7:01:55 PM, belle wrote:
its frustrating that the vote of people who have clearly given so much thought to the issue is of equal weight to mine. sorry if that sounds arrogant, but theres no real response available for a soundbite presented as an opinion...

Could you elaborate please?

seriously? lol

if you honestly take the attitude that an institution you nominally have a voice in should either be accepted uncritically as infallible or abandoned, you have no need of a vote. futhermore, such a person is likely to vote for what the politicians tell them to rather than thinking about what would be best for the people who live here. its the attitude of blind acceptance that really bugs me.

Agreed. I think I knew what your response would entail, but I wanted to see if you would put anything else in it ;)
Sieben
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12/2/2010 7:42:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
So if I break into your house, but give you the option to leave, its okay?

You have a right to free association with your fellow man. The USFG does not have legitimate ownership over anyone or any land. It is a criminal organization.
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governments_kill
Posts: 30
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12/3/2010 8:13:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/2/2010 7:42:41 PM, Sieben wrote:
So if I break into your house, but give you the option to leave, its okay?

You have a right to free association with your fellow man. The USFG does not have legitimate ownership over anyone or any land. It is a criminal organization.

Is this an intelligent comment referencing the USFG's historical disregard for established treaties with indigenous nations, or is this the petulant childishness of a teenage libertarian?
Sieben
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12/3/2010 8:26:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/3/2010 8:13:43 PM, governments_kill wrote:
At 12/2/2010 7:42:41 PM, Sieben wrote:
So if I break into your house, but give you the option to leave, its okay?

You have a right to free association with your fellow man. The USFG does not have legitimate ownership over anyone or any land. It is a criminal organization.

Is this an intelligent comment referencing the USFG's historical disregard for established treaties with indigenous nations, or is this the petulant childishness of a teenage libertarian?

YOU'RE NOT MY REAL DAD

(the latter).
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OrionsGambit
Posts: 258
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12/3/2010 8:52:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/2/2010 7:03:52 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Here's what I do when talking to people like that (if I'm not so angry that I'm lost for words):

Ask him what the founding fathers would have thought of his absurd ultimatum. When they lived under an oppressive government, they didn't 'love it or leave it.' They could have gone West or to a different country or whatever--but they didn't. They fought for their freedom and abolished the tyrannical regime they lived under. That's how real Americans respond to living under an oppressive government.

That would be considered "leaving it" technically. The South tried to do it too and us northern boys put them back into place with a strong backhand.
Noblesse Oblige
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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12/3/2010 8:57:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/3/2010 8:52:06 PM, OrionsGambit wrote:
At 12/2/2010 7:03:52 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Here's what I do when talking to people like that (if I'm not so angry that I'm lost for words):

Ask him what the founding fathers would have thought of his absurd ultimatum. When they lived under an oppressive government, they didn't 'love it or leave it.' They could have gone West or to a different country or whatever--but they didn't. They fought for their freedom and abolished the tyrannical regime they lived under. That's how real Americans respond to living under an oppressive government.

That would be considered "leaving it" technically. The South tried to do it too and us northern boys put them back into place with a strong backhand.

The person originally saying 'love it or leave it' was attacking sac8 for merely criticizing the U.S. government, so I doubt that type of person would be recommending violent revolution as part of the 'leave it' option.
Should we subsidize education?
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: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
OrionsGambit
Posts: 258
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12/3/2010 9:03:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/3/2010 8:57:51 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 12/3/2010 8:52:06 PM, OrionsGambit wrote:
At 12/2/2010 7:03:52 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Here's what I do when talking to people like that (if I'm not so angry that I'm lost for words):

Ask him what the founding fathers would have thought of his absurd ultimatum. When they lived under an oppressive government, they didn't 'love it or leave it.' They could have gone West or to a different country or whatever--but they didn't. They fought for their freedom and abolished the tyrannical regime they lived under. That's how real Americans respond to living under an oppressive government.

That would be considered "leaving it" technically. The South tried to do it too and us northern boys put them back into place with a strong backhand.

The person originally saying 'love it or leave it' was attacking sac8 for merely criticizing the U.S. government, so I doubt that type of person would be recommending violent revolution as part of the 'leave it' option.

Not saying the guy is right, just saying your example follows what he said >_>
Noblesse Oblige
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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12/6/2010 8:33:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/2/2010 6:54:44 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
Today, a kid in my class seriously told me to "love it or leave it."

I merely said that the United States military is much too expansive, and that the government essentially oppresses us. Further, I said that the US military as a whole really isn't necessary, at least to its current extent, if it weren't for the poor diplomatic choices by Congress and past presidents for the last fifty to seventy-five years.

Of course, I was speaking to a pro-war, conservative fellow in my classroom, so he went with the hackneyed, ignorant expression, "Love it or leave it." Great articulation.

Do little annoying comments like these piss you guys off on occasion?

Along the lines of Laissez, i would persuade someone like that rather than debate. There are those that i like to go at it full force, then there are those that i know i am wasting my time......but, if they tend to be of the lazy unthinking variety, then you have an opportunity to manipulate and convince. I like saying something like: "You seem like a smart guy, look at it this way...". Appeal to vanity to start out, then appeal to their self interest.

Sac, knowing you from here, i'm guessing that you'd be really good at this, and trust me you will have them all eating out of your hand. - See it works every time.
lovelife
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12/6/2010 8:59:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Omg yes it pisses me off. My whole family is like that and I just got done yesterday being told off about how I'm an ungrateful b!tch yadda yadda. Course it wasn't exactly love it or leave it, its go to saudi arabia only or STFU (Canada is too offensive to mom apparently. She really hates Canada because they don't give dyslexic people college scholarships just for being mentally retarded, so Canada is just a slap in her face apparently...or at least thats the bullsh!t she says to say its not an option for me)

I really wish I knew how to respond to willfully ignorant people, but I just keep my mouth shut.
She also says that wikileaks is a terrorist organization to share inside information to spread anarchy and get people to stop supporting the government and is full of lies, and help the terrorists. (she later said that someone that sounded like me told her to go look at something on wikileaks about killing innocent people at war and she said the whole thing was shoot if they have weapons and they sent ambulances for any unarmed that accidentally got shot. I know nothing about wikileaks really never looked into it, but I'm pretty sure if they aren't posting that while just trying to make the government look bad....seems kinda foolish to me. But I have no interest in looking it up, I'd prolly be killed if I touched wikileaks anyway, but I do think it should be there.)

Sorry about the rant; long story short I agree and I've been trying to find an appropriate place to f-cking get that said.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
wjmelements
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12/6/2010 4:11:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I hate hearing the whole "if you don't like it, leave" rhetoric. Should the American Revolutionists have abandoned their homes in exodus to the West? No. Where would I go anyways?
It is entirely anti-American to not be able to oppose the American government's behavior.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
lovelife
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12/6/2010 10:25:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/6/2010 4:11:44 PM, wjmelements wrote:
I hate hearing the whole "if you don't like it, leave" rhetoric. Should the American Revolutionists have abandoned their homes in exodus to the West? No. Where would I go anyways?
It is entirely anti-American to not be able to oppose the American government's behavior.

This.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
m93samman
Posts: 2,685
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12/10/2010 12:26:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Gaaaaaaawwwwdd.

I despise ignorant, stubborn prepubescently immature adults who carry a badge of their staunch blindness to reality on their jacket of discriminatory fur knitted in a Nicaraguan sweat shop.
: At 4/15/2011 5:29:37 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
: Pascal's wager is for poosies.
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: I mean that sincerly, because it's basically an argument from poooosie.
:
: I'm pretty sure that's like a fallacy.. Argument ad Pussium or something like that.
OrionsGambit
Posts: 258
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12/10/2010 1:58:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2010 4:11:44 PM, wjmelements wrote:
I hate hearing the whole "if you don't like it, leave" rhetoric. Should the American Revolutionists have abandoned their homes in exodus to the West? No. Where would I go anyways?
It is entirely anti-American to not be able to oppose the American government's behavior.

See what I posted above.

The American way is to start a fight. You people seem hell bent on complaining about stuff but not doing anything about it (speaking generally).
Noblesse Oblige
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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12/10/2010 6:00:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2010 8:59:45 AM, lovelife wrote:
Omg yes it pisses me off. My whole family is like that and I just got done yesterday being told off about how I'm an ungrateful b!tch yadda yadda. Course it wasn't exactly love it or leave it, its go to saudi arabia only or STFU (Canada is too offensive to mom apparently. She really hates Canada because they don't give dyslexic people college scholarships just for being mentally retarded, so Canada is just a slap in her face apparently...or at least thats the bullsh!t she says to say its not an option for me)

I really wish I knew how to respond to willfully ignorant people, but I just keep my mouth shut.
She also says that wikileaks is a terrorist organization to share inside information to spread anarchy and get people to stop supporting the government and is full of lies, and help the terrorists. (she later said that someone that sounded like me told her to go look at something on wikileaks about killing innocent people at war and she said the whole thing was shoot if they have weapons and they sent ambulances for any unarmed that accidentally got shot. I know nothing about wikileaks really never looked into it, but I'm pretty sure if they aren't posting that while just trying to make the government look bad....seems kinda foolish to me. But I have no interest in looking it up, I'd prolly be killed if I touched wikileaks anyway, but I do think it should be there.)

Sorry about the rant; long story short I agree and I've been trying to find an appropriate place to f-cking get that said.

Almost everything on wikileaks is common knowledge, so of course it makes the government look bad, mostly through stuff from the Bush administration.

For example, a helicopter in Afghanistan radios in saying that after a strafing run, a number of Taliban are surrendering to them.
Response from headquarters: "lawyer says hostiles cannot surrender to helicopter. Continue engaging."
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
OrionsGambit
Posts: 258
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12/10/2010 1:17:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/10/2010 6:00:01 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 12/6/2010 8:59:45 AM, lovelife wrote:
Omg yes it pisses me off. My whole family is like that and I just got done yesterday being told off about how I'm an ungrateful b!tch yadda yadda. Course it wasn't exactly love it or leave it, its go to saudi arabia only or STFU (Canada is too offensive to mom apparently. She really hates Canada because they don't give dyslexic people college scholarships just for being mentally retarded, so Canada is just a slap in her face apparently...or at least thats the bullsh!t she says to say its not an option for me)

I really wish I knew how to respond to willfully ignorant people, but I just keep my mouth shut.
She also says that wikileaks is a terrorist organization to share inside information to spread anarchy and get people to stop supporting the government and is full of lies, and help the terrorists. (she later said that someone that sounded like me told her to go look at something on wikileaks about killing innocent people at war and she said the whole thing was shoot if they have weapons and they sent ambulances for any unarmed that accidentally got shot. I know nothing about wikileaks really never looked into it, but I'm pretty sure if they aren't posting that while just trying to make the government look bad....seems kinda foolish to me. But I have no interest in looking it up, I'd prolly be killed if I touched wikileaks anyway, but I do think it should be there.)

Sorry about the rant; long story short I agree and I've been trying to find an appropriate place to f-cking get that said.

Almost everything on wikileaks is common knowledge, so of course it makes the government look bad, mostly through stuff from the Bush administration.

For example, a helicopter in Afghanistan radios in saying that after a strafing run, a number of Taliban are surrendering to them.
Response from headquarters: "lawyer says hostiles cannot surrender to helicopter. Continue engaging."

I find this confusing as in both Iraq Wars, dozens of Iraqi infantry would sometimes try surrendering to American close-air support. In one instance during the this last war, 50 Iraqi Soldiers surrendered to a single Apache helicopter. The Apache landed, and one of the pilots walked up to the soldiers and said they had to walk that way (towards the American lines) in order to have their surrender excepted. Maybe it's a matter of not trusting the Taliban to actually surrender.
Noblesse Oblige
OrionsGambit
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12/10/2010 1:18:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/10/2010 5:12:11 AM, Sieben wrote:
I'd fight back, but then I'd be in jail.

So you dislike the system yet your afraid the system will punish you if you fight it...
Noblesse Oblige
Sieben
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12/10/2010 1:53:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/10/2010 1:18:35 PM, OrionsGambit wrote:
At 12/10/2010 5:12:11 AM, Sieben wrote:
I'd fight back, but then I'd be in jail.

So you dislike the system yet your afraid the system will punish you if you fight it...

Would you fight against Leninism?
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werbenjagermanjensen
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12/10/2010 2:20:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/2/2010 6:56:49 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
In reference to the WikiLeaks dilemma, my peer said that there are things that government should only know, and that no one should be able to release this sort of information to the American public. I think this is utter bullsh!t.

Even the guy who originally leaked the Pentagon papers on the Vietnam war disagrees with this position.

http://www.colbertnation.com...

Time: 7:50

Colbert: "You're saying its better to know than to not know"

Daniel: "I think there should be some secrets"
: At 12/10/2010 9:58:26 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
: lovelife's cool.

Insert statement that I wrote myself here. Cuz sigging your own words is cool!

Jannah Ta'alumah (Mitchell)
timbeech
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12/12/2010 5:38:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Aren't those interviews on The Colbert Report just scripted? What people say who get interviewed on the show should be taken with a grain of salt. Its not a good source.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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12/12/2010 6:31:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Both sides of the debate are employing a reductio. Imo, the reductio where "the state has all the secrets" is worse.
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belle
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12/12/2010 6:41:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/12/2010 5:38:24 PM, timbeech wrote:
Aren't those interviews on The Colbert Report just scripted? What people say who get interviewed on the show should be taken with a grain of salt. Its not a good source.

i'm pretty sure they're not all scripted... because colbert likes to throw them crazy questions and throw them off balance. that part seems genuine in most interviews. some might be scripted though... if the guests have enough clout to make things go their way...
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...