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Capital Punishment: Debate

tejretics
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5/9/2016 6:02:41 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Fire proposed this (http://www.debate.org...).

This serves as a discussion on capital punishment. What do you think of capital punishment? Should it be allowed? In what circumstances? Why? Articulate your position and defend it with arguments here. I prefer detailed responses as opposed to a normal forum discussion -- let's actually debate it out here. Present arguments for and against capital punishment.

Note: no playing devil's advocate, please -- the purpose of this thread is persuasion.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
ColeTrain
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5/9/2016 6:03:24 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/9/2016 6:02:41 PM, tejretics wrote:
Fire proposed this (http://www.debate.org...).

This serves as a discussion on capital punishment. What do you think of capital punishment? Should it be allowed? In what circumstances? Why? Articulate your position and defend it with arguments here. I prefer detailed responses as opposed to a normal forum discussion -- let's actually debate it out here. Present arguments for and against capital punishment.

Note: no playing devil's advocate, please -- the purpose of this thread is persuasion.

Lol... 7 seconds.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
tejretics
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5/9/2016 6:04:11 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/9/2016 6:03:24 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 5/9/2016 6:02:41 PM, tejretics wrote:
Fire proposed this (http://www.debate.org...).

This serves as a discussion on capital punishment. What do you think of capital punishment? Should it be allowed? In what circumstances? Why? Articulate your position and defend it with arguments here. I prefer detailed responses as opposed to a normal forum discussion -- let's actually debate it out here. Present arguments for and against capital punishment.

Note: no playing devil's advocate, please -- the purpose of this thread is persuasion.

Lol... 7 seconds.

6 seconds this time - we responded the same thing in each other's thread
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
ColeTrain
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5/9/2016 6:04:37 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/9/2016 6:04:11 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/9/2016 6:03:24 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 5/9/2016 6:02:41 PM, tejretics wrote:
Fire proposed this (http://www.debate.org...).

This serves as a discussion on capital punishment. What do you think of capital punishment? Should it be allowed? In what circumstances? Why? Articulate your position and defend it with arguments here. I prefer detailed responses as opposed to a normal forum discussion -- let's actually debate it out here. Present arguments for and against capital punishment.

Note: no playing devil's advocate, please -- the purpose of this thread is persuasion.

Lol... 7 seconds.

6 seconds this time - we responded the same thing in each other's thread

That's hilarious, lol.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
ColeTrain
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5/9/2016 6:16:47 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
These mods are terrible. They delete my content any time I try to post something. We need to get new ones... Lol. Jk.

========

I'm CON. We should NOT allow the death penalty to be legal. I'll C&P my reasons from a debate... [http://www.debate.org...]

Morality Argument:
The first and foremost problem with is the morality of such an issue. Though lawmakers and politicians push for such a system, claiming it gives justice to the criminals, it simply isn"t moral. The ideology behind the death penalty, and the mindset that is required to sentence and carry out the death penalty creates deadly cyclical killing. The simple reality is that the advocates for the death penalty assume that killers must be killed. But that formula is flawed. Allow me to demonstrate.
A. All who kill must be killed
B. a killed b
C. x must now kill a to preserve the ideology.

From there, y has the obligation to kill x, z must kill y, et cetera. This deadly cycle (literally) goes against any moral groundings of killings, and the laws of our land. If murders must be punished for killing, executioners must be punished for killing. If continuing with this problematic strategy, a never-ending cycle of murder will ensue, causing harm not only to the original family affected by murder, but continuing along the chain. If murder is a crime (which it is) the death penalty goes against predetermined laws; thus, leaving of the death penalty in action causes hypocrisy and contradiction of the law. Moreover, "Allowing our government to kill citizens compromises the deepest moral values upon which this country was conceived: the inviolable dignity of human persons." [9]

Justice is also found in other methods of punishment. "Given the value we place on life and our obligation to minimize suffering and pain whenever possible, if a less severe alternative to the death penalty exists which would accomplish the same goal, we are duty-bound to reject the death penalty in favor of the less severe alternative." [11]

Inhumanity Argument:

Along with being simply immorality, the death penalty is inhumane. Besides the fact of looming death, capital punishment is often painful for victims, as there are multiple forms of the death penalty. Even though many would argue that lethal injection is the best and least painful form of capital punishment, a study shows criminals can and have been conscious throughout their death. This study comes from the British Journal, The Lancet, where they explain, "43 percent had concentrations of anesthetic in their blood " as measured by medical examiners during autopsies " that would indicate consciousness rather than sedation during an execution." [4] Dr. Leonidas Koniaris, chairman of surgical oncology at the University of Miami asks us the decisive question, "As a society we need to step back and ask whether we want to torture these people or not." [16] The answer is that we SHOULDN"T torture these people. Professor Stephen B. Bright of Yale Law School asks, "Does a society torture those it believes guilty of crimes?" [16] Once again, a just society should not.

"Worthy" Crime Argument:
Studies have shown that the DP has deviated from the previous standards of only SPECIFIC crimes resulting in capital punishment. As of only last year, governments are using the death penalty to punish to combat crime and terrorism as well. A study done by Amnesty International documents, "An alarming number of countries used the death penalty to tackle real or perceived threats to state security linked to terrorism, crime or internal instability in 2014." [5] What we see is that these penalties are being given for reasons that deviate from the primary and regulated reasons.

These crimes can also give capital punishment to minors, such as George Junius Stinney Jr., who was 14 when he was executed. "Stinney, the youngest person to receive the death penalty in the last 100 years, was executed on June 16, 1944. At five feet one inch and only 95 pounds, the straps of the electric chair did not fit the boy. His feet could not touch the floor. As he was hit with the first 2,400-volt surge of electricity, the mask covering his face slipped off, "revealing his wide-open, tearful eyes and saliva coming from his mouth."" [6] The article further explains that Stinney was never actually guilty of the crime with which he was charged.

Innocence Argument:
We see cases where individuals are not guilty of the crime they supposedly committed, and in serious cases, we see executions when the "criminal" is guilty. In fact, a study from the University of Michigan Law school shows, "a conservative estimate of the proportion of erroneous convictions of defendants sentenced to death in the United States from 1973 through 2004, [is] 4.1%." [7] Because capital punishment is death, errors are vital, and very important. Justice systems cannot accurately be described as just when they convict and murder innocent individuals. Thus, without conclusive evidence, governments execute innocent individuals and are not just.

Deterrence Argument:
Though it is a common argument, little credible evidence even suggests that capital punishment deters crime. In fact, the evidence points the other way. In a study published by John J. Donohue and Justin Wolfers, they back up the claim that the death penalty doesn"t deter crime. "Sociologist Thorsten Sellin"s careful comparisons of the evolution of homicide rates in contiguous states from 1920 to 1963 led to doubts about the existence of a deterrent effect caused by the imposition of the death penalty" the National Academy of Sciences to issue a 1978 report which argued that the existing evidence in support of a deterrent effect of capital punishment was unpersuasive" We find that the existing evidence for deterrence is surprisingly fragile." [8]

In reality, deterrence is not a result of capital punishment, and the evidence that supports it is not credible. In fact, "a University of Florida researcher"s new study shows 90 percent of the nation"s top criminologists say killing people to deter violent crime is an immense waste of time and money." [2] Even besides murders, the death penalty is ineffective at deterring other crimes, including drug trafficking. [12] Moreover, the United Nations nor the Malaysian Bar president have found that the death penalty doesn"t deter criminal activity. [13] [14]

Cost:
The death penalty costs too much. "A study found that the death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million per execution over the costs of a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of imprisonment for life (Cook & Slawson. 1993). On a national basis, these figures translate to an extra cost of over $700 million dollars spent since 1976 on the death penalty." [10] They continue to say, "It costs six times more to execute a person in Florida than to incarcerate a prisoner for life with no parole." In fact, "A 1982 study showed that were the death penalty to be reintroduced in New York, the cost of the capital trial alone would be more than double the cost of a life term in prison." [15]

These reasons explicitly explain why the death penalty should be abolished. Sources in next post.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
ColeTrain
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5/9/2016 6:17:07 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Sources:
[1] http://www.britannica.com...
[2] http://news.ufl.edu...
[3] http://deathpenalty.procon.org...
[4] http://www.chron.com...
[5] https://www.amnesty.org...
[6] http://www.rawstory.com...
[7] http://www.pnas.org...
[8] http://users.nber.org...(SLR).pdf
[9] Prejean, Helen. "Executions Are Too Costly--Morally" Dead Man Walking: An Eyewitness Account of the Death Penalty in the United States. 1993. Rpt. In Current Issues and Enduring Questions. Ed. Sylvan Barnet and Hugo Bedau. Boston: Bedford St. Martin's, 2002. 584.
[10] http://www.uvm.edu...
[11] http://www.scu.edu...
[12] http://www.thejakartapost.com...
[13] http://www.un.org...
[14] http://www.therakyatpost.com...
[15] N. Y. State Defenders Assn., Capital Losses (1982) [http://www.worldpolicy.newschool.edu...]
[16] https://www.schr.org...
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
fire_wings
Posts: 5,563
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5/9/2016 8:35:31 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
My Position: Con

Sorry if this quite short. I don't have sources yet, I will make my argument more clear next round

Framework

My framework will be centered around the Right of Life. "The right to life is a moral principle based on the belief that a human being has the right to live and, in particular, should not be killed by another human being. " Therefore, It means that all people have the right to live. The right of life is approved in America, and it has been one of the oldest laws, all the way from 1968

Argument 1: Innocents

Many innocent people have been sent into the death penalty. Some dies. There are accidents, meaning the system is flawed. Also, if there is an accident, and they kill an innocent person, the person is dead. It is not morally permissible. Think about all the people who are related to the innocently dead person. His mom, dad, sister, brother, etc. will all be sad. You can take someone out of prison, but not death.
#ALLHAILFIRETHEKINGOFTHEMISCFORUM

...it's not a new policy... it's just that DDO was built on an ancient burial ground, and that means the spirits of old rise again to cause us problems sometimes- Airmax1227

Wtf you must have an IQ of 250 if you're 11 and already decent at this- 16k

Go to sleep!!!!- missmozart

So to start off, I never committed suicide- Vaarka
ColeTrain
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5/9/2016 11:43:26 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/9/2016 6:02:41 PM, tejretics wrote:
Note: no playing devil's advocate, please -- the purpose of this thread is persuasion.

Would it be considered playing the devil's advocate if we were to critique or challenge another person's argument from our own position/side?
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
tejretics
Posts: 6,094
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5/10/2016 2:28:09 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/9/2016 11:43:26 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 5/9/2016 6:02:41 PM, tejretics wrote:
Note: no playing devil's advocate, please -- the purpose of this thread is persuasion.

Would it be considered playing the devil's advocate if we were to critique or challenge another person's argument from our own position/side?

No, you can definitely do that.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
thett3
Posts: 14,378
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5/10/2016 2:38:13 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
Devils advocate:

The death penalty should not be allowed as it unnecessarily creates risk. With every death sentence there is a non zero chance that the person is innocent, and eventually it's inevitable that a completely innocent person will end up executed. With modern technology there is essentially no risk to imprisoning someone for life, allowing them to be freed if new evidence emerges that exonerates them.

On top of that, the system in the United States is incredibly costly. Leftist judges can and do everything in their power to block death sentences, and the lengthy appeals process provides many avenues for sneaky lawyers to waste time. The archetypal execution in the United States is an old man being executed for a crime committed in 1980 after wasting millions in taxpayer dollars.

It's clear that there is little practical, quantifiable benefit from capital punishment but a lot of risk. So why continue to do it?
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
ColeTrain
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5/10/2016 2:55:09 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/10/2016 2:38:13 AM, thett3 wrote:
Devils advocate:

OP. lol.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,325
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5/10/2016 2:55:29 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/10/2016 2:28:09 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/9/2016 11:43:26 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 5/9/2016 6:02:41 PM, tejretics wrote:
Note: no playing devil's advocate, please -- the purpose of this thread is persuasion.

Would it be considered playing the devil's advocate if we were to critique or challenge another person's argument from our own position/side?

No, you can definitely do that.

Sweet, thanks! :D
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
tejretics
Posts: 6,094
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5/10/2016 2:58:16 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/10/2016 2:38:13 AM, thett3 wrote:
Devils advocate:

What convinced you to return to the pro-DP side of the debate?
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
thett3
Posts: 14,378
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5/10/2016 3:03:59 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/10/2016 2:55:09 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 5/10/2016 2:38:13 AM, thett3 wrote:
Devils advocate:

OP. lol.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com...
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,325
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5/10/2016 3:06:28 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/10/2016 3:03:59 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 5/10/2016 2:55:09 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 5/10/2016 2:38:13 AM, thett3 wrote:
Devils advocate:

OP. lol.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com...

Lol.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
thett3
Posts: 14,378
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5/10/2016 3:07:22 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/10/2016 2:58:16 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/10/2016 2:38:13 AM, thett3 wrote:
Devils advocate:

What convinced you to return to the pro-DP side of the debate?

The best argument for the death penalty is to simply read the offenses of those executed.

Some people deserve to die.

I support the death penalty in limited cases as a penalty for the most heinous of crimes...and of course, a complete overhaul of the system (which is never going to happen). I would also be open to expanding it beyond murder, for example serial rapists. But only with a very high standard for evidence. I don't have any moral problem with the state ending the life of a murderer
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
tejretics
Posts: 6,094
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5/10/2016 3:18:51 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/10/2016 3:07:22 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 5/10/2016 2:58:16 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/10/2016 2:38:13 AM, thett3 wrote:
Devils advocate:

What convinced you to return to the pro-DP side of the debate?

The best argument for the death penalty is to simply read the offenses of those executed.

Some people deserve to die.

That argument has never made any sense to me.

There's no "inherent value" to punishment. God isn't coming down to earth and marking down people who "deserve" to increase entropy in their thermodynamic systems *cough* bodies.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
thett3
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5/10/2016 3:28:42 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/10/2016 3:18:51 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/10/2016 3:07:22 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 5/10/2016 2:58:16 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/10/2016 2:38:13 AM, thett3 wrote:
Devils advocate:

What convinced you to return to the pro-DP side of the debate?

The best argument for the death penalty is to simply read the offenses of those executed.

Some people deserve to die.

That argument has never made any sense to me.

There's no "inherent value" to punishment.

That is simply not true. Punishment is absolutely a necessity both for the sake of society and for justice. The entire rationale behind penalizing someone for a crime is because they *deserve* it--rehabilitation is a secondary concern. If it wasn't, we would be imprisoning and rehabilitating all sorts of random and broken people even if they haven't committed any crimes.

I don't buy that the argument doesn't make sense to you. We hear about a heinous crime and our instinct is to cry out for justice and the punishment of the guilty. You know it, I know it, and so does everyone reading this post. From a societal perspective, satisfying that need for justice and retribution is TOTALLY necessary...the issue is balancing that impulse with the rights of the criminal so that we don't end up with lynch mobs. And the idea that executing someone violates their rights but damning them to hell on Earth for 60 years isn't never sat right with me.

God isn't coming down to earth and marking down people who "deserve" to increase entropy in their thermodynamic systems *cough* bodies.

that was the gayest way to describe death that I've ever seen
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
tejretics
Posts: 6,094
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5/10/2016 3:30:01 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/10/2016 3:28:42 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 5/10/2016 3:18:51 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/10/2016 3:07:22 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 5/10/2016 2:58:16 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/10/2016 2:38:13 AM, thett3 wrote:
Devils advocate:

What convinced you to return to the pro-DP side of the debate?

The best argument for the death penalty is to simply read the offenses of those executed.

Some people deserve to die.

That argument has never made any sense to me.

There's no "inherent value" to punishment.

That is simply not true. Punishment is absolutely a necessity both for the sake of society and for justice. The entire rationale behind penalizing someone for a crime is because they *deserve* it.

People deserve a significant reduction in energy density per microstate in their bodies?
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
thett3
Posts: 14,378
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5/10/2016 3:30:40 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/10/2016 3:30:01 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/10/2016 3:28:42 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 5/10/2016 3:18:51 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/10/2016 3:07:22 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 5/10/2016 2:58:16 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/10/2016 2:38:13 AM, thett3 wrote:
Devils advocate:

What convinced you to return to the pro-DP side of the debate?

The best argument for the death penalty is to simply read the offenses of those executed.

Some people deserve to die.

That argument has never made any sense to me.

There's no "inherent value" to punishment.

That is simply not true. Punishment is absolutely a necessity both for the sake of society and for justice. The entire rationale behind penalizing someone for a crime is because they *deserve* it.

People deserve a significant reduction in energy density per microstate in their bodies?

I thought the purpose of this thread was persuasion
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
tejretics
Posts: 6,094
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5/10/2016 3:31:24 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/10/2016 3:30:40 AM, thett3 wrote:
I thought the purpose of this thread was persuasion

um, yeah... this is kinda a rebuttal.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
tejretics
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5/10/2016 6:42:03 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/10/2016 3:28:42 AM, thett3 wrote:
That is simply not true. Punishment is absolutely a necessity both for the sake of society and for justice. The entire rationale behind penalizing someone for a crime is because they *deserve* it--rehabilitation is a secondary concern. If it wasn't, we would be imprisoning and rehabilitating all sorts of random and broken people even if they haven't committed any crimes.

What does "deserve" punishment even mean? It's completely meaningless. The purpose of punishment is (1) deterrence and (2) rehabilitation. Also, like I said, there's no "deserving" a sudden reduction in energy density per microstate - because that's all death is. We fear it, but once it comes, there's no brain activity. It's nothing at all.

There's actually a good argument to be made from retribution, in that government should legislate based on what people have as their values, and retributive justice is a societal value. But that doesn't mean the "deserving punishment" is anything more than a subjective abstraction - because it's completely meaningless.

I don't buy that the argument doesn't make sense to you. We hear about a heinous crime and our instinct is to cry out for justice and the punishment of the guilty.

My instinct has always been against the DP... that's why I very reluctantly became Pro in the middle of the site when convinced by deterrence. I don't, instinctively, like the idea of subjecting executioners (much more than the executed) to the kind of trauma the job requires; the same with innocent lives being lost as a result.

You know it, I know it, and so does everyone reading this post. From a societal perspective, satisfying that need for justice and retribution is TOTALLY necessary...the issue is balancing that impulse with the rights of the criminal so that we don't end up with lynch mobs. And the idea that executing someone violates their rights but damning them to hell on Earth for 60 years isn't never sat right with me.

I don't argue from a "right to life" perspective, it makes no sense.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
user13579
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5/10/2016 10:50:24 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/9/2016 6:02:41 PM, tejretics wrote:
Fire proposed this (http://www.debate.org...).

This serves as a discussion on capital punishment. What do you think of capital punishment? Should it be allowed? In what circumstances? Why? Articulate your position and defend it with arguments here. I prefer detailed responses as opposed to a normal forum discussion -- let's actually debate it out here. Present arguments for and against capital punishment.

Note: no playing devil's advocate, please -- the purpose of this thread is persuasion.

If capital punishment is an effective "deterrent", then why not punish all crimes with that deterrent? Wouldn't that stop all crime?
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tejretics
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5/10/2016 10:57:58 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/10/2016 10:50:24 AM, user13579 wrote:
If capital punishment is an effective "deterrent", then why not punish all crimes with that deterrent? Wouldn't that stop all crime?

The reason such application doesn't exist is that the death of the guilty outweighs, say, the money lost from theft in a cost-benefit analysis (lives outweigh money). I don't buy that capital punishment is a significant deterrent, though, except for a few isolated cases.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
thett3
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5/10/2016 2:32:31 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/10/2016 6:42:03 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/10/2016 3:28:42 AM, thett3 wrote:
That is simply not true. Punishment is absolutely a necessity both for the sake of society and for justice. The entire rationale behind penalizing someone for a crime is because they *deserve* it--rehabilitation is a secondary concern. If it wasn't, we would be imprisoning and rehabilitating all sorts of random and broken people even if they haven't committed any crimes.

What does "deserve" punishment even mean? It's completely meaningless.

Nice tactical nihilism. It means that there is a moral standard under which punishment is warranted...you asked me for my opinion on capital punishment, not for an in depth argument in favor of objective morality.

What is really annoying about people making arguments like this is that they're contradicted by a wealth of human experience within their own lives...and they make the argument anyway. It's *not* meaningless for society to enforce a code of law, lol

The purpose of punishment is (1) deterrence and (2) rehabilitation.

That is nonsense and is contradicted by the very definition and nature of punishment. Of course it's retributive or else it wouldn't be in response to wrongdoing...

Also, like I said, there's no "deserving" a sudden reduction in energy density per microstate - because that's all death is. We fear it, but once it comes, there's no brain activity. It's nothing at all.

This is also not true but I'm not getting into a theology debate with you. Although now that I think about it, my religion probably does play something of a role in my overall outlook on the idea of justice and punishment.


There's actually a good argument to be made from retribution, in that government should legislate based on what people have as their values, and retributive justice is a societal value.

That is literally the position that I argued. Disregarding any moral aspect at all, punishment for the guilty is necessary from a societal standpoint and acting in the best interest of the society in question is the moral imperative of the government. The only difference between what I said and what you're saying now is that I actually believe in that morality but even if you don't, it doesn't matter. As long as you subjectively believe in things like "a sense of justice in the populace is good" then you agree with my argument

But that doesn't mean the "deserving punishment" is anything more than a subjective abstraction - because it's completely meaningless.

I don't buy that the argument doesn't make sense to you. We hear about a heinous crime and our instinct is to cry out for justice and the punishment of the guilty.

My instinct has always been against the DP... that's why I very reluctantly became Pro in the middle of the site when convinced by deterrence. I don't, instinctively, like the idea of subjecting executioners (much more than the executed) to the kind of trauma the job requires; the same with innocent lives being lost as a result.

Okay but that's an instinct against the death penalty itself, which is a punishment that a sense of horror towards makes total sense. That doesn't mean that your instincts aren't in favor of punishing the guilty, even if that punishment isn't the death penalty.

My point is that we see a crime and we emotionally cry out for the punishment of the guilty...and you know this as well as I know it.

I can see it now, everyone says "but...but...but..thats EMOTION! Reason is ABOVE emotion!" This fetish for "reason" is extremely unwise. Go ahead and try to create a civilization or government that acts without consideration of the emotional reaction of the populace, working simply through PURE REASON and see how far it gets you. Understanding emotions, intuition, and other things that motivate us is essential for properly understanding the human condition


You know it, I know it, and so does everyone reading this post. From a societal perspective, satisfying that need for justice and retribution is TOTALLY necessary...the issue is balancing that impulse with the rights of the criminal so that we don't end up with lynch mobs. And the idea that executing someone violates their rights but damning them to hell on Earth for 60 years isn't never sat right with me.

I don't argue from a "right to life" perspective, it makes no sense.

lol why because we don't have a right to a steady state of energy density per microstate? The sooner you drop this nihilistic stuff the better...

Anyway I'm going to the beach so I won't be able to respond for a few days. l8er
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
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5/10/2016 3:00:08 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/10/2016 2:32:31 PM, thett3 wrote:

lol, I'm a moral realist. I don't view "retribution" as forming a part of that morality.

Anyhow, I think the innocent lives lost as result of the DP -- and by "innocent," I don't just mean those who didn't commit a crime, I mean those who aren't *culpable* for any crime (e.g. severely mentally ill) -- outweighs the positive impact of societal satisfaction.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
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5/10/2016 3:15:56 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/10/2016 3:00:08 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/10/2016 2:32:31 PM, thett3 wrote:

lol, I'm a moral realist. I don't view "retribution" as forming a part of that morality.

Anyhow, I think the innocent lives lost as result of the DP -- and by "innocent," I don't just mean those who didn't commit a crime, I mean those who aren't *culpable* for any crime (e.g. severely mentally ill) -- outweighs the positive impact of societal satisfaction.

See that is a perfectly valid and reasonable position. Just being like "actually death is meaningless" or whatever you were saying before is annoying
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
tejretics
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5/10/2016 3:29:54 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/10/2016 3:15:56 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 5/10/2016 3:00:08 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/10/2016 2:32:31 PM, thett3 wrote:

lol, I'm a moral realist. I don't view "retribution" as forming a part of that morality.

Anyhow, I think the innocent lives lost as result of the DP -- and by "innocent," I don't just mean those who didn't commit a crime, I mean those who aren't *culpable* for any crime (e.g. severely mentally ill) -- outweighs the positive impact of societal satisfaction.

See that is a perfectly valid and reasonable position. Just being like "actually death is meaningless" or whatever you were saying before is annoying

No, I said "retributive justice is meaningless," which it is. Sadly, society believes in it - but that is absolutely not how you framed the argument at first.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
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5/10/2016 4:08:07 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/10/2016 3:15:56 PM, thett3 wrote:

For the record, the conversations I have with you are awesome.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
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5/10/2016 10:45:23 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/10/2016 4:08:07 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/10/2016 3:15:56 PM, thett3 wrote:

For the record, the conversations I have with you are awesome.

I would have to agree.
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