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Is Taxation theft?

Blade-of-Truth
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5/9/2016 6:12:44 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
I have several friends on FB that have recently been consumed by this "Taxation is Theft" movement.

The utilize pictures and claims that we had functioning roads and services before taxes were implemented. I just don't get it, haven't we *always* been taxed?

What exactly am I missing here?

Ultimately, is Taxation theft?
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Blade-of-Truth
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5/9/2016 6:19:45 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Holy crap - apparently a huge majority of this site agrees too?!

http://www.debate.org...
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ColeTrain
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5/9/2016 6:24:56 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 6:12:44 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
Ultimately, is Taxation theft?

Of course it is: [http://www.debate.org...]
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Blade-of-Truth
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5/9/2016 6:30:21 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 6:24:56 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 5/9/2016 6:12:44 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
Ultimately, is Taxation theft?

Of course it is: [http://www.debate.org...]

Wow, this is crazy. At face value I kinda dismissed the claim that taxation is theft, but now that I'm genuinely looking into it... there are some incredibly valid points to this claim. I feel like I'm about to go down an anarchist rabbit hole here, but I'm excited to do so, lol.
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ColeTrain
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5/9/2016 6:37:09 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 6:30:21 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 5/9/2016 6:24:56 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 5/9/2016 6:12:44 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
Ultimately, is Taxation theft?

Of course it is: [http://www.debate.org...]

Wow, this is crazy. At face value I kinda dismissed the claim that taxation is theft, but now that I'm genuinely looking into it... there are some incredibly valid points to this claim. I feel like I'm about to go down an anarchist rabbit hole here, but I'm excited to do so, lol.

Lol :P Thank Shab. ;)
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
Greyparrot
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5/9/2016 6:57:43 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 6:24:56 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 5/9/2016 6:12:44 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
Ultimately, is Taxation theft?

Of course it is: [http://www.debate.org...]

I just read that, interesting.

Although 16K is right that Taxes are agreed contracts via voting, the fact remains that there will always exist in a 2 party system anywhere from 0 to 49.99999999% of the people that did not agree to taxation. For those people, it most certainly is theft.

In a 3 party system up to 66% of the people can be stolen from.

Hooray 3rd parties!
Rukado
Posts: 527
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5/9/2016 6:58:51 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 6:12:44 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I have several friends on FB that have recently been consumed by this "Taxation is Theft" movement.

Taking someone's property by force or fraud is theft. Maybe English is your second language and you don't know what the word "theft" means?

If Hitler killed six million Jews, or even if he killed just one as a public service, it wasn't murder, right? Because you apparently think that whatever a government does is not what it is if a private person does it.

There has always been taxes... and theft, and murder....
ColeTrain
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5/9/2016 7:01:05 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 6:57:43 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/9/2016 6:24:56 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 5/9/2016 6:12:44 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
Ultimately, is Taxation theft?

Of course it is: [http://www.debate.org...]

I just read that, interesting

Yup :)

Although 16K is right that Taxes are agreed contracts via voting, the fact remains that there will always exist in a 2 party system anywhere from 0 to 49.99999999% of the people that did not agree to taxation. For those people, it most certainly is theft.

In a 3 party system up to 66% of the people can be stolen from.

Hooray 3rd parties!

Lol, yeah xD
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
Greyparrot
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5/9/2016 7:01:46 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 7:01:05 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 5/9/2016 6:57:43 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/9/2016 6:24:56 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 5/9/2016 6:12:44 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
Ultimately, is Taxation theft?

Of course it is: [http://www.debate.org...]

I just read that, interesting

Yup :)

Although 16K is right that Taxes are agreed contracts via voting, the fact remains that there will always exist in a 2 party system anywhere from 0 to 49.99999999% of the people that did not agree to taxation. For those people, it most certainly is theft.

In a 3 party system up to 66% of the people can be stolen from.

Hooray 3rd parties!

Lol, yeah xD

Are you bossy burrito?
Blade-of-Truth
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5/9/2016 7:13:50 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 6:43:55 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
It's only theft from people who pay taxes :)

This is true!
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Blade-of-Truth
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5/9/2016 7:23:23 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 6:58:51 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 5/9/2016 6:12:44 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I have several friends on FB that have recently been consumed by this "Taxation is Theft" movement.

Taking someone's property by force or fraud is theft. Maybe English is your second language and you don't know what the word "theft" means?

If Hitler killed six million Jews, or even if he killed just one as a public service, it wasn't murder, right? Because you apparently think that whatever a government does is not what it is if a private person does it.

There has always been taxes... and theft, and murder....

There's no need to be rude, although admittedly it's probably well deserved karma-wise.

So, you're in the camp that it is theft. I'm just now looking into all of this so it'll be a few hours before I can arrive at my own educated decision on the matter.
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Geogeer
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5/9/2016 8:01:48 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 6:12:44 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I have several friends on FB that have recently been consumed by this "Taxation is Theft" movement.

The utilize pictures and claims that we had functioning roads and services before taxes were implemented. I just don't get it, haven't we *always* been taxed?

What exactly am I missing here?

Ultimately, is Taxation theft?

Yes and no.

Every member of society has a social obligation to the whole and to pay for fair services rendered. Roads (and other worthy infrastructure), military, governance, etc... are all services required for a stable society to exist and function.

Now if government overreaches what it should be providing for and money ends up feeding the system and those who abuse it, then it does become theft. The dividing line is the difference between liberals and conservatives and is a fair contention between men (yes horribly sexist of me) of good will.
TBR
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5/9/2016 8:04:07 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 6:12:44 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I have several friends on FB that have recently been consumed by this "Taxation is Theft" movement.

The utilize pictures and claims that we had functioning roads and services before taxes were implemented. I just don't get it, haven't we *always* been taxed?

What exactly am I missing here?

Ultimately, is Taxation theft?

No. It is not theft. You have agreed to it (via representation)
someloser
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5/9/2016 8:06:10 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Depends on how government handles enforcement. In many cases, taxation is rent.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

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TBR
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5/9/2016 8:11:41 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 6:12:44 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I have several friends on FB that have recently been consumed by this "Taxation is Theft" movement.

The utilize pictures and claims that we had functioning roads and services before taxes were implemented. I just don't get it, haven't we *always* been taxed?

What exactly am I missing here?

Ultimately, is Taxation theft?

Just as a note. We, the American people, share in a country that is worth ~250 TRILLION dollars. Every damn time "debt" gets kicked around, I think about this and our ~17 TRILLION gdp, and think "STOP YOUR WHINING!!!, PAY YOUR DAMN TAXES!!!"
Danielle
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5/9/2016 9:32:21 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 6:57:43 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Although 16K is right that Taxes are agreed contracts via voting, the fact remains that there will always exist in a 2 party system anywhere from 0 to 49.99999999% of the people that did not agree to taxation. For those people, it most certainly is theft.

Taxes are not contracts. Contracts require non-coerced mutual consent. Minors cannot consent to contracts, yet they are subject to income tax (and they can't vote). Everyone is subject to sales tax. Plus everyone is taxed even when we don't vote. And felons are taxed even when losing their right to vote.
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Danielle
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5/9/2016 9:35:31 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 8:04:07 PM, TBR wrote:
No. It is not theft. You have agreed to it (via representation)

Taxes are theft. Theft is taking someone else's property (including money) without their explicit and non-coerced consent. Minors cannot consent to contracts, yet they are subject to income tax (and they can't vote). Everyone is subject to sales tax, and people who rent/buy contribute to property taxes. Plus everyone is taxed even when we don't vote. And felons are taxed even when losing their right to vote. I have never voted, nor have I supported any politician that allegedly represented me. All of my politicians have been imposed via tyranny of the ignorant and selfish majority - the populace of those who live close to me. That does not qualify as my "explicit consent." I am bound to the laws and expenses of the U.S. government whether I like it or not. I don't have an explicit say in directing my taxes. My "representative" not only fails to represent my values but my interests. And even if I wanted to renounce my U.S. citizenship, I would have to pay upwards of $2,000.
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Danielle
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5/9/2016 9:36:12 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 8:01:48 PM, Geogeer wrote:
Every member of society has a social obligation to the whole and to pay for fair services rendered. Roads (and other worthy infrastructure), military, governance, etc... are all services required for a stable society to exist and function.

No, that inherent obligation does not exist. And roads plus other things the government funds could still be provided even without taxes.
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TBR
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5/9/2016 9:41:47 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 9:35:31 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 5/9/2016 8:04:07 PM, TBR wrote:
No. It is not theft. You have agreed to it (via representation)

Taxes are theft. Theft is taking someone else's property (including money) without their explicit and non-coerced consent. Minors cannot consent to contracts, yet they are subject to income tax (and they can't vote). Everyone is subject to sales tax, and people who rent/buy contribute to property taxes. Plus everyone is taxed even when we don't vote. And felons are taxed even when losing their right to vote. I have never voted, nor have I supported any politician that allegedly represented me. All of my politicians have been imposed via tyranny of the ignorant and selfish majority - the populace of those who live close to me. That does not qualify as my "explicit consent." I am bound to the laws and expenses of the U.S. government whether I like it or not. I don't have an explicit say in directing my taxes. My "representative" not only fails to represent my values but my interests. And even if I wanted to renounce my U.S. citizenship, I would have to pay upwards of $2,000.

because you have not voted, or even CAN'T vote does not mean that you are not represented. Simple and true fact - you are paying the taxes that have been agreed to by those representing you in local, state, and the federal government.
Geogeer
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5/9/2016 9:42:11 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 9:36:12 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 5/9/2016 8:01:48 PM, Geogeer wrote:
Every member of society has a social obligation to the whole and to pay for fair services rendered. Roads (and other worthy infrastructure), military, governance, etc... are all services required for a stable society to exist and function.

No, that inherent obligation does not exist. And roads plus other things the government funds could still be provided even without taxes.

Sure inherent obligations exist. Parents have a natural obligation to their young. Members of a community have a natural obligation to the community as the community provides natural benefits (security, etc...). The nature of humans is to form communities to ease the burdens of life - its called civilization.

There are always alternative methods of providing things. However, stable societies have best been established under our current system. Everything has a price, every means of doing things has benefits and costs.
Danielle
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5/9/2016 9:45:11 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 9:41:47 PM, TBR wrote:
because you have not voted, or even CAN'T vote does not mean that you are not represented.

What's the point of being "represented" if my interests are not being represented? That's like saying if Hitler were POTUS, you are being represented by Hitler. Yes, a technical representation exists (as in political authority), but I highly doubt you would agree that Hitler represents you and your political values even if he were elected to be your leader.

Simple and true fact - you are paying the taxes that have been agreed to by those representing you in local, state, and the federal government.

Yes. That is a fact and I think it's total bullsh!t. Most people are too selfish and ignorant to dictate who controls our finances or make other important decisions about society and the economy... or elect corrupt leaders who act according to their own self-interest, instead of "representing" my values or interests.

Simple and true fact - theft is defined as taking other people's property (including money) without their explicit consent. That's what taxes are, even if the money allegedly goes to help you and other people vote to steal it by force through their strength in numbers (democracy).
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Danielle
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5/9/2016 9:47:45 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 9:42:11 PM, Geogeer wrote:
Sure inherent obligations exist.

That's a fallacious bare assertion. Many philosophers would dispute that objective morality, reality and truth even exist -- let alone objective, inherent obligations.

Parents have a natural obligation to their young. Members of a community have a natural obligation to the community as the community provides natural benefits (security, etc...).

Both of these are more fallacious bare assertions. These are simply your opinions. Other people with different moral standards can easily dispute these claims.

The nature of humans is to form communities to ease the burdens of life - its called civilization.

Okay. Taxes are not necessary for civilization, and taxes are still qualify as theft even if they are.

There are always alternative methods of providing things. However, stable societies have best been established under our current system. Everything has a price, every means of doing things has benefits and costs.

"Best" is subjective. And some people favor moral standards over pragmatism.
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TBR
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5/9/2016 9:48:35 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 9:45:11 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 5/9/2016 9:41:47 PM, TBR wrote:
because you have not voted, or even CAN'T vote does not mean that you are not represented.

What's the point of being "represented" if my interests are not being represented? That's like saying if Hitler were POTUS, you are being represented by Hitler. Yes, a technical representation exists (as in political authority), but I highly doubt you would agree that Hitler represents you and your political values even if he were elected to be your leader.

The thread is "Is taxation theft". I have shown that it clearly is NOT theft. You disliking your representatives or unwillingness to even participate in the voting process means nothing to this topic. "Boo-hoo, I don't like my representatives" is just childish. Bout as childish as saying taxation = theft.


Simple and true fact - you are paying the taxes that have been agreed to by those representing you in local, state, and the federal government.

Yes. That is a fact and I think it's total bullsh!t. Most people are too selfish and ignorant to dictate who controls our finances or make other important decisions about society and the economy... or elect corrupt leaders who act according to their own self-interest, instead of "representing" my values or interests.

So. If you can do better, run.


Simple and true fact - theft is defined as taking other people's property (including money) without their explicit consent. That's what taxes are, even if the money allegedly goes to help you and other people vote to steal it by force through their strength in numbers (democracy).

And I have shown that tax is not theft, so what the he11 are you talking about?
Danielle
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5/9/2016 9:51:23 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 9:48:35 PM, TBR wrote:
So. If you can do better, run.

#1 I never said I could do better. I said the status quo is BS.
#2 I don't believe in ruling over other people. Nor do I support democracy.

And I have shown that tax is not theft, so what the he11 are you talking about?

No you haven't. Not at all. Not even a little. I said theft is defined as taking other people's property (including money) without their explicit consent. That's what taxes are, even if the money allegedly goes to help you and other people vote to steal it by force through their strength in numbers (democracy). You literally said nothing to negate this fact.
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TBR
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5/9/2016 9:53:34 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 9:51:23 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 5/9/2016 9:48:35 PM, TBR wrote:
So. If you can do better, run.

#1 I never said I could do better. I said the status quo is BS.
Right, just crying about it. Got it.

#2 I don't believe in ruling over other people. Nor do I support democracy.
That is fine too. Move out of the country. You do have choices.


And I have shown that tax is not theft, so what the he11 are you talking about?

No you haven't. Not at all. Not even a little. I said theft is defined as taking other people's property (including money) without their explicit consent. That's what taxes are, even if the money allegedly goes to help you and other people vote to steal it by force through their strength in numbers (democracy). You literally said nothing to negate this fact.

You have consented. You even seem to concede this above. If you can't understand this issue, well, not really my issue.
Geogeer
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5/9/2016 10:04:56 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 9:47:45 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 5/9/2016 9:42:11 PM, Geogeer wrote:
Sure inherent obligations exist.

That's a fallacious bare assertion. Many philosophers would dispute that objective morality, reality and truth even exist -- let alone objective, inherent obligations.

And many philosophers would be wrong.

Parents have a natural obligation to their young. Members of a community have a natural obligation to the community as the community provides natural benefits (security, etc...).

Both of these are more fallacious bare assertions. These are simply your opinions. Other people with different moral standards can easily dispute these claims.

And do you see any successful society where these opinions have been put into practice? You see reality is where good and bad philosophy is put to the test. Philosophy detached from reality becomes meaningless.

The nature of humans is to form communities to ease the burdens of life - its called civilization.

Okay. Taxes are not necessary for civilization, and taxes are still qualify as theft even if they are.

Every civilization has put obligations on the people living within it. You cannot have a successful society without these obligations. In more primitive societies it was a duty to provide labour, or fight in defense of the community, donations of grains or other harvested goods. In our modern society we have simplified it to a cash requirement based on certain abilities to pay. An reasonable obligation is not theft, but providing for the success and survival of the "tribe."

There are always alternative methods of providing things. However, stable societies have best been established under our current system. Everything has a price, every means of doing things has benefits and costs.

"Best" is subjective. And some people favor moral standards over pragmatism.

Once again, moral standards should not differ significantly from a pragmatic solution based in natural law. It is a lack of founding philosophy in natural law that results in many false philosophies.
Greyparrot
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5/9/2016 10:37:30 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 9:32:21 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 5/9/2016 6:57:43 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Although 16K is right that Taxes are agreed contracts via voting, the fact remains that there will always exist in a 2 party system anywhere from 0 to 49.99999999% of the people that did not agree to taxation. For those people, it most certainly is theft.

Taxes are not contracts. Contracts require non-coerced mutual consent. Minors cannot consent to contracts, yet they are subject to income tax (and they can't vote). Everyone is subject to sales tax. Plus everyone is taxed even when we don't vote. And felons are taxed even when losing their right to vote.

Oh you hole puncher, punching holes in my argument!
So much for taxation with representation!
Chang29
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5/10/2016 12:15:14 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
People only pay taxes because of a threat of governmental violence against them for non-compliance.

There must be a better way to fund collective action.
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
Double_R
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5/10/2016 2:00:28 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/9/2016 9:45:11 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 5/9/2016 9:41:47 PM, TBR wrote:
because you have not voted, or even CAN'T vote does not mean that you are not represented.

What's the point of being "represented" if my interests are not being represented? That's like saying if Hitler were POTUS, you are being represented by Hitler. Yes, a technical representation exists (as in political authority), but I highly doubt you would agree that Hitler represents you and your political values even if he were elected to be your leader.

Simple and true fact - you are paying the taxes that have been agreed to by those representing you in local, state, and the federal government.

Yes. That is a fact and I think it's total bullsh!t. Most people are too selfish and ignorant to dictate who controls our finances or make other important decisions about society and the economy... or elect corrupt leaders who act according to their own self-interest, instead of "representing" my values or interests.

Simple and true fact - theft is defined as taking other people's property (including money) without their explicit consent. That's what taxes are, even if the money allegedly goes to help you and other people vote to steal it by force through their strength in numbers (democracy).

According to this argument, union dues is also theft.

I think we can all understand why that is nonsense.