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SAT racially biased?

ken1122
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5/16/2016 1:40:20 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
I've heard the many questions on the SAT test were racially biased. Can anyone give an example of such a question that might be on the SAT test that is racially biased?

Ken
Rukado
Posts: 527
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5/16/2016 2:00:24 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
Yes, the SAT is racially biased against *white* people. Questions blacks do relatively poorly with have been systematically removed from the SAT. In 2005, quantitative comparisons in math and analogies in critical reading were taken out of the SAT to try to boost black scores. This kind of thing was going on before 2005 and it's still going on now.

The SAT was never more than a 9th-grade test in the first place, meaning it failed to measure academic ability beyond 9th-grade, which helps blacks in the fist place, as they tend to top out academically in the 8th or 9th grade.
Sam7411
Posts: 959
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5/16/2016 2:08:23 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 2:00:24 AM, Rukado wrote:
Yes, the SAT is racially biased against *white* people. Questions blacks do relatively poorly with have been systematically removed from the SAT. In 2005, quantitative comparisons in math and analogies in critical reading were taken out of the SAT to try to boost black scores. This kind of thing was going on before 2005 and it's still going on now.

The SAT was never more than a 9th-grade test in the first place, meaning it failed to measure academic ability beyond 9th-grade, which helps blacks in the fist place, as they tend to top out academically in the 8th or 9th grade.

sources?
Sam7411
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5/16/2016 2:20:09 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 2:18:38 AM, Rukado wrote:
At 5/16/2016 2:08:23 AM, Sam7411 wrote:
sources?

Learn to use Google.

ahh but you should always be able to cite your facts if you want to make a valid argument
Rukado
Posts: 527
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5/16/2016 2:30:26 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
I retract my previous post, upon realizing I'm too lazy to post sources. I now maintain the SAT is biased against *blacks* in that it's designed to measure academic ability which has an disparate impact on black students.
slo1
Posts: 4,346
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5/16/2016 2:33:01 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 1:40:20 AM, ken1122 wrote:
I've heard the many questions on the SAT test were racially biased. Can anyone give an example of such a question that might be on the SAT test that is racially biased?

Ken

Backstay is to Cutter like.

Keystone:Arch
wheel:car
Pepperoni:pizza
Daughter:mother

The main concern is the use of vocabulary that favors a particular soicio-economic group. In the example I give, which I don't even know if they do on SAT these days, could arguably use a sailboat terms that is irrelevant to success at college and it would favor higher economic classes which would be more likely to have exposure to sailboats including reading about them. Bad example as I would suspect many students would not know the parts of a sailboat.

The other case is the use of vocabulary that might trip up a student when it is not relevant to the area being evaluated in such as math.

I think there is some truth to the bias complaints, but it again appears to be a social economic issue as poor folks simply have worse vocabularies and less general exposure to experiences that give knowledge.

It is important though as vocabulary can be learned. Judgement of capability should not be overweighted towards vocabulary.
Rukado
Posts: 527
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5/16/2016 2:52:03 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 2:33:01 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 1:40:20 AM, ken1122 wrote:
I've heard the many questions on the SAT test were racially biased. Can anyone give an example of such a question that might be on the SAT test that is racially biased?

Ken

Backstay is to Cutter like.

Keystone:Arch
wheel:car
Pepperoni:pizza
Daughter:mother


The main concern is the use of vocabulary that favors a particular soicio-economic group. In the example I give, which I don't even know if they do on SAT these days, could arguably use a sailboat terms that is irrelevant to success at college and it would favor higher economic classes which would be more likely to have exposure to sailboats including reading about them. Bad example as I would suspect many students would not know the parts of a sailboat.

The other case is the use of vocabulary that might trip up a student when it is not relevant to the area being evaluated in such as math.

I think there is some truth to the bias complaints, but it again appears to be a social economic issue as poor folks simply have worse vocabularies and less general exposure to experiences that give knowledge.

It is important though as vocabulary can be learned. Judgement of capability should not be overweighted towards vocabulary.

First, as I already indicated, that kind of question is no longer on the SAT test. Second, it's not because most blacks have never sailed, it's because most don't understand analogies, even with words they understand. If the question were "Crack is to Cocaine like..." blacks would still miss it.

How many white teenagers sailed? (Fortunately, the question doesn't even require knowing what a Backstay is to answer it correctly.). And, why should the SAT be dumbed-down so that people with unambitious reading interests can do better on it?
ken1122
Posts: 471
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5/16/2016 3:10:46 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 2:33:01 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 1:40:20 AM, ken1122 wrote:
I've heard the many questions on the SAT test were racially biased. Can anyone give an example of such a question that might be on the SAT test that is racially biased?

Ken

Backstay is to Cutter like.

Keystone:Arch
wheel:car
Pepperoni:pizza
Daughter:mother


The main concern is the use of vocabulary that favors a particular soicio-economic group. In the example I give, which I don't even know if they do on SAT these days, could arguably use a sailboat terms that is irrelevant to success at college and it would favor higher economic classes which would be more likely to have exposure to sailboats including reading about them. Bad example as I would suspect many students would not know the parts of a sailboat.

The other case is the use of vocabulary that might trip up a student when it is not relevant to the area being evaluated in such as math.

I think there is some truth to the bias complaints, but it again appears to be a social economic issue as poor folks simply have worse vocabularies and less general exposure to experiences that give knowledge.

It is important though as vocabulary can be learned. Judgement of capability should not be overweighted towards vocabulary.

It sounds like more of an economical bias rather than racial bias because a middle income to poor white person who isn't familiar with sail boats would have just as hard of a time as the middle income to poor black person. Would you agree?

Ken
triangle.128k
Posts: 3,646
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5/16/2016 3:35:41 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 1:40:20 AM, ken1122 wrote:
I've heard the many questions on the SAT test were racially biased. Can anyone give an example of such a question that might be on the SAT test that is racially biased?

Ken

http://media1.giphy.com...
Sam7411
Posts: 959
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5/16/2016 3:39:30 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 3:35:41 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 5/16/2016 1:40:20 AM, ken1122 wrote:
I've heard the many questions on the SAT test were racially biased. Can anyone give an example of such a question that might be on the SAT test that is racially biased?

Ken

http://media1.giphy.com...

America after seeing its presidential candidates^
triangle.128k
Posts: 3,646
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5/16/2016 3:42:12 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 3:39:30 AM, Sam7411 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 3:35:41 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 5/16/2016 1:40:20 AM, ken1122 wrote:
I've heard the many questions on the SAT test were racially biased. Can anyone give an example of such a question that might be on the SAT test that is racially biased?

Ken

http://media1.giphy.com...

America after seeing its presidential candidates^

except for trump who trumps all the other filthy candidates.
Sam7411
Posts: 959
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5/16/2016 3:44:47 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 3:42:12 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 5/16/2016 3:39:30 AM, Sam7411 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 3:35:41 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 5/16/2016 1:40:20 AM, ken1122 wrote:
I've heard the many questions on the SAT test were racially biased. Can anyone give an example of such a question that might be on the SAT test that is racially biased?

Ken

http://media1.giphy.com...
^me after reading your response

America after seeing its presidential candidates^

except for trump who trumps all the other filthy candidates.
slo1
Posts: 4,346
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5/16/2016 11:05:54 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 3:10:46 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 2:33:01 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 1:40:20 AM, ken1122 wrote:
I've heard the many questions on the SAT test were racially biased. Can anyone give an example of such a question that might be on the SAT test that is racially biased?

Ken

Backstay is to Cutter like.

Keystone:Arch
wheel:car
Pepperoni:pizza
Daughter:mother


The main concern is the use of vocabulary that favors a particular soicio-economic group. In the example I give, which I don't even know if they do on SAT these days, could arguably use a sailboat terms that is irrelevant to success at college and it would favor higher economic classes which would be more likely to have exposure to sailboats including reading about them. Bad example as I would suspect many students would not know the parts of a sailboat.

The other case is the use of vocabulary that might trip up a student when it is not relevant to the area being evaluated in such as math.

I think there is some truth to the bias complaints, but it again appears to be a social economic issue as poor folks simply have worse vocabularies and less general exposure to experiences that give knowledge.

It is important though as vocabulary can be learned. Judgement of capability should not be overweighted towards vocabulary.

It sounds like more of an economical bias rather than racial bias because a middle income to poor white person who isn't familiar with sail boats would have just as hard of a time as the middle income to poor black person. Would you agree?

Ken

I agree whole heartedly, but since economic success tends to be influenced over the course of generations and African Americans were disproportionately impacted ecomicaly from law and other institutional factors they are still disproportionately impacted from effects of socio economical biased questions.
slo1
Posts: 4,346
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5/16/2016 11:38:19 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 2:52:03 AM, Rukado wrote:
At 5/16/2016 2:33:01 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 1:40:20 AM, ken1122 wrote:
I've heard the many questions on the SAT test were racially biased. Can anyone give an example of such a question that might be on the SAT test that is racially biased?

Ken

Backstay is to Cutter like.

Keystone:Arch
wheel:car
Pepperoni:pizza
Daughter:mother


The main concern is the use of vocabulary that favors a particular soicio-economic group. In the example I give, which I don't even know if they do on SAT these days, could arguably use a sailboat terms that is irrelevant to success at college and it would favor higher economic classes which would be more likely to have exposure to sailboats including reading about them. Bad example as I would suspect many students would not know the parts of a sailboat.

The other case is the use of vocabulary that might trip up a student when it is not relevant to the area being evaluated in such as math.

I think there is some truth to the bias complaints, but it again appears to be a social economic issue as poor folks simply have worse vocabularies and less general exposure to experiences that give knowledge.

It is important though as vocabulary can be learned. Judgement of capability should not be overweighted towards vocabulary.

First, as I already indicated, that kind of question is no longer on the SAT test. Second, it's not because most blacks have never sailed, it's because most don't understand analogies, even with words they understand. If the question were "Crack is to Cocaine like..." blacks would still miss it.

Agreed it may not be a specific style of question, but it stands that the general concern is around the use of vocabulary. Even in math questions there can be vocabulary which favors certain socioeconomic economical groups over others.

How many white teenagers sailed? (Fortunately, the question doesn't even require knowing what a Backstay is to answer it correctly.). And, why should the SAT be dumbed-down so that people with unambitious reading interests can do better on it?

That is fine if you are evaluating potential students on reading interest, but why would you not advocate directly measuring reading experience or vocabulary rather than indirectly measuring it, if it is important to predicting college success. Measuring critical reasoning skills should not have to be dependent upon breadth of vocabulary.

I obviously don't know how much the college board has done to eliminate bias. They may have very well done a fine job with it, but i'm certain you would not want questions asked in a way that a perfect sense to a Louisiana Cajun but you have to extrapolate and infer meaning.
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,176
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5/16/2016 12:38:51 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 3:10:46 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 2:33:01 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 1:40:20 AM, ken1122 wrote:
I've heard the many questions on the SAT test were racially biased. Can anyone give an example of such a question that might be on the SAT test that is racially biased?

Ken

Backstay is to Cutter like.

Keystone:Arch
wheel:car
Pepperoni:pizza
Daughter:mother


The main concern is the use of vocabulary that favors a particular soicio-economic group. In the example I give, which I don't even know if they do on SAT these days, could arguably use a sailboat terms that is irrelevant to success at college and it would favor higher economic classes which would be more likely to have exposure to sailboats including reading about them. Bad example as I would suspect many students would not know the parts of a sailboat.

The other case is the use of vocabulary that might trip up a student when it is not relevant to the area being evaluated in such as math.

I think there is some truth to the bias complaints, but it again appears to be a social economic issue as poor folks simply have worse vocabularies and less general exposure to experiences that give knowledge.

It is important though as vocabulary can be learned. Judgement of capability should not be overweighted towards vocabulary.

It sounds like more of an economical bias rather than racial bias because a middle income to poor white person who isn't familiar with sail boats would have just as hard of a time as the middle income to poor black person. Would you agree?

Ken
SAT and comparable tests are meant to test ability to succeed in college, not meant to measure IQ.

Because of my low economical status, I had lower potential to succeed in college.
It seems to me, a test that accounted for that was fair.

Here is my experience.
First of all, I did score well on my SAT. In 1966 the target score was 1000 to get into a state university of your choice. I scored in the top 10 percent of my high school class, because I am a good test taker. As I recall, nationally I was in the top 25 percent, with a score of 1130. At that time a perfect score of 1600 was extremely rare. The average score for college bound students was 950. My 1130 would be worth over 1200 for 2013 - not Harvard material by any means, but still very respectable.

I was a Spanish language major.
In my freshman class, I was the only Spanish major who had not spent at least one summer in Mexico or Spain. I struggled in my classes, tried hard, could not do better than a 'C' grade. While I spent summers working as a busyboy, my competition was living with Spanish speaking natives.
I had the intelligence to get top grades, but my economical background meant I had to work part time jobs while in college, would not travel abroad in the summers, and generally had a tougher time excelling in college classes.

SAT scores are not meant to measure intelligence.
Employers do not want to know how intelligent you are, they want to know how well you will perform.
I was not 'poor', but some of my friends were.
I was middle class, but in some job markets, (and ,some college majors) that kind of background was poor preparation for success. An SAT test that measured that, would be 'fair', it seems to me.

It seems to me the wealthy have an advantage in the job market.
I have read studies that convincingly demonstrated that children of wealthy parents had high paying jobs with modest potential, and modest effort.
Children of low income parents with the same inherent potential had to expend great effort to reach the same level of financial success.
Children of wealthy parents can do moderately well financially while loafing through life.
A child of poor parents, who has the same IQ and expends the same effort may end up on welfare, or close to it.

Like I've told my kids, life isn't fair, get over it.
Rukado
Posts: 527
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5/16/2016 4:35:55 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 11:05:54 AM, slo1 wrote:
I agree whole heartedly, but since economic success tends to be influenced over the course of generations and African Americans were disproportionately impacted ecomicaly from law and other institutional factors they are still disproportionately impacted from effects of socio economical biased questions.

Do you have any evidence to back up your racist and stupid claim?

For the last couple of generations, whites have been systematically oppressed. "Anti-discrimination" laws have a massive effect, and are applied practically only one direction. Our schools and entertainment all pull for blacks. Where does that disproportionately economic impact come from, if not from blacks own congenitally lower IQ and racist culture?

Very few white families have enjoyed generations of prosperity. Even the richest whites of a century ago couldn't afford Internet, cell phones, or air conditioning, which the vast majority of blacks have today.

Stop making excuses. Stop blaming the innocent. Stop being a racist SOB.
Rukado
Posts: 527
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5/16/2016 5:02:01 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 12:38:51 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
Because of my low economical status, I had lower potential to succeed in college.
It seems to me, a test that accounted for that was fair.

Here is my experience.
First of all, I did score well on my SAT. In 1966 the target score was 1000 to get into a state university of your choice. I scored in the top 10 percent of my high school class,

If you were such poor trash, how come you got a reasonable score on the SAT? Good test taker? There's no such thing as a good test taker (for a professionally made test). You have to know the correct answer to get the correct answer. (There are some poor test takers, but not good test takers.)

SAT scores are not meant to measure intelligence.

And, yet, SAT scores do good job measuring intelligence.

A child of poor parents, who has the same IQ and expends the same effort may end up on welfare, or close to it.

BS! The proximate cause of welfare is laziness and immorality. It's not poverty that makes a woman have bastard children, it's her immorality.

The rich do have advantages, like better job connections and more time to study. But, working while in school is an advantage too, an education in how the world works, and maybe you're getting skills that will help in your future career. The vast majority of whites have little advantage from wealth. But, blacks enjoy pervasive preference programs.
slo1
Posts: 4,346
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5/16/2016 11:10:08 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 4:35:55 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 5/16/2016 11:05:54 AM, slo1 wrote:
I agree whole heartedly, but since economic success tends to be influenced over the course of generations and African Americans were disproportionately impacted ecomicaly from law and other institutional factors they are still disproportionately impacted from effects of socio economical biased questions.

Do you have any evidence to back up your racist and stupid claim?

For the last couple of generations, whites have been systematically oppressed. "Anti-discrimination" laws have a massive effect, and are applied practically only one direction. Our schools and entertainment all pull for blacks. Where does that disproportionately economic impact come from, if not from blacks own congenitally lower IQ and racist culture?

Very few white families have enjoyed generations of prosperity. Even the richest whites of a century ago couldn't afford Internet, cell phones, or air conditioning, which the vast majority of blacks have today.

Stop making excuses. Stop blaming the innocent. Stop being a racist SOB.

You are a severely diminished man who runs on fear.
ken1122
Posts: 471
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5/17/2016 12:00:22 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 11:05:54 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 3:10:46 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 2:33:01 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 1:40:20 AM, ken1122 wrote:
I've heard the many questions on the SAT test were racially biased. Can anyone give an example of such a question that might be on the SAT test that is racially biased?

Ken

Backstay is to Cutter like.

Keystone:Arch
wheel:car
Pepperoni:pizza
Daughter:mother


The main concern is the use of vocabulary that favors a particular soicio-economic group. In the example I give, which I don't even know if they do on SAT these days, could arguably use a sailboat terms that is irrelevant to success at college and it would favor higher economic classes which would be more likely to have exposure to sailboats including reading about them. Bad example as I would suspect many students would not know the parts of a sailboat.

The other case is the use of vocabulary that might trip up a student when it is not relevant to the area being evaluated in such as math.

I think there is some truth to the bias complaints, but it again appears to be a social economic issue as poor folks simply have worse vocabularies and less general exposure to experiences that give knowledge.

It is important though as vocabulary can be learned. Judgement of capability should not be overweighted towards vocabulary.

It sounds like more of an economical bias rather than racial bias because a middle income to poor white person who isn't familiar with sail boats would have just as hard of a time as the middle income to poor black person. Would you agree?

Ken

I agree whole heartedly, but since economic success tends to be influenced over the course of generations and African Americans were disproportionately impacted ecomicaly from law and other institutional factors they are still disproportionately impacted from effects of socio economical biased questions.

But there are more poor white people than poor black people in the USA.
http://www.theroot.com...
So how can you call a test that has socio economical biased questions racist against blacks when most of the people it discriminates against are white?

Ken
ken1122
Posts: 471
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5/17/2016 12:02:01 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 12:38:51 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 5/16/2016 3:10:46 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 2:33:01 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 1:40:20 AM, ken1122 wrote:
I've heard the many questions on the SAT test were racially biased. Can anyone give an example of such a question that might be on the SAT test that is racially biased?

Ken

Backstay is to Cutter like.

Keystone:Arch
wheel:car
Pepperoni:pizza
Daughter:mother


The main concern is the use of vocabulary that favors a particular soicio-economic group. In the example I give, which I don't even know if they do on SAT these days, could arguably use a sailboat terms that is irrelevant to success at college and it would favor higher economic classes which would be more likely to have exposure to sailboats including reading about them. Bad example as I would suspect many students would not know the parts of a sailboat.

The other case is the use of vocabulary that might trip up a student when it is not relevant to the area being evaluated in such as math.

I think there is some truth to the bias complaints, but it again appears to be a social economic issue as poor folks simply have worse vocabularies and less general exposure to experiences that give knowledge.

It is important though as vocabulary can be learned. Judgement of capability should not be overweighted towards vocabulary.

It sounds like more of an economical bias rather than racial bias because a middle income to poor white person who isn't familiar with sail boats would have just as hard of a time as the middle income to poor black person. Would you agree?

Ken
SAT and comparable tests are meant to test ability to succeed in college, not meant to measure IQ.

Because of my low economical status, I had lower potential to succeed in college.
It seems to me, a test that accounted for that was fair.

Here is my experience.
First of all, I did score well on my SAT. In 1966 the target score was 1000 to get into a state university of your choice. I scored in the top 10 percent of my high school class, because I am a good test taker. As I recall, nationally I was in the top 25 percent, with a score of 1130. At that time a perfect score of 1600 was extremely rare. The average score for college bound students was 950. My 1130 would be worth over 1200 for 2013 - not Harvard material by any means, but still very respectable.

I was a Spanish language major.
In my freshman class, I was the only Spanish major who had not spent at least one summer in Mexico or Spain. I struggled in my classes, tried hard, could not do better than a 'C' grade. While I spent summers working as a busyboy, my competition was living with Spanish speaking natives.
I had the intelligence to get top grades, but my economical background meant I had to work part time jobs while in college, would not travel abroad in the summers, and generally had a tougher time excelling in college classes.

SAT scores are not meant to measure intelligence.
Employers do not want to know how intelligent you are, they want to know how well you will perform.
I was not 'poor', but some of my friends were.
I was middle class, but in some job markets, (and ,some college majors) that kind of background was poor preparation for success. An SAT test that measured that, would be 'fair', it seems to me.

It seems to me the wealthy have an advantage in the job market.
I have read studies that convincingly demonstrated that children of wealthy parents had high paying jobs with modest potential, and modest effort.
Children of low income parents with the same inherent potential had to expend great effort to reach the same level of financial success.
Children of wealthy parents can do moderately well financially while loafing through life.
A child of poor parents, who has the same IQ and expends the same effort may end up on welfare, or close to it.

Like I've told my kids, life isn't fair, get over it.

Again; it sounds like an economics issue rather than a racial issue.

Ken
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,176
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5/17/2016 1:02:34 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 5:02:01 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 5/16/2016 12:38:51 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
Because of my low economical status, I had lower potential to succeed in college.
It seems to me, a test that accounted for that was fair.

Here is my experience.
First of all, I did score well on my SAT. In 1966 the target score was 1000 to get into a state university of your choice. I scored in the top 10 percent of my high school class,

If you were such poor trash, how come you got a reasonable score on the SAT? Good test taker? There's no such thing as a good test taker (for a professionally made test). You have to know the correct answer to get the correct answer. (There are some poor test takers, but not good test takers.)


Google - good test taker - then read the first ten or fifteen results. They don't cover everything, but that will give you a start.
One test I took for the military was all about an invented language. The language does not exist, just make believe. They gave all the grammatical rules, then asked questions about it. There was nothing to "know". You had to use logic to figure it out.
I did very well, first in my company, by a long shot.
Some people hate taking tests, I like them. I enjoy taking tests, about anything.
I do well on them.
People who hate taking tests do not do so well.
You can't seem to understand how that works.

SAT scores are not meant to measure intelligence.

And, yet, SAT scores do good job measuring intelligence.

That is not the intention of the tests.
It is not clear if you understand that.

A child of poor parents, who has the same IQ and expends the same effort may end up on welfare, or close to it.

BS! The proximate cause of welfare is laziness and immorality. It's not poverty that makes a woman have bastard children, it's her immorality.

Do you under stand what "close to it" means????
It means not on welfare, but income just barely above income guidelines.

The rich do have advantages, like better job connections and more time to study. But, working while in school is an advantage too, an education in how the world works, and maybe you're getting skills that will help in your future career. The vast majority of whites have little advantage from wealth. But, blacks enjoy pervasive preference programs.
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,176
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5/17/2016 1:17:38 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/17/2016 12:02:01 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 12:38:51 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 5/16/2016 3:10:46 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 2:33:01 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 1:40:20 AM, ken1122 wrote:
I've heard the many questions on the SAT test were racially biased. Can anyone give an example of such a question that might be on the SAT test that is racially biased?

Ken

Backstay is to Cutter like.

Keystone:Arch
wheel:car
Pepperoni:pizza
Daughter:mother


The main concern is the use of vocabulary that favors a particular soicio-economic group. In the example I give, which I don't even know if they do on SAT these days, could arguably use a sailboat terms that is irrelevant to success at college and it would favor higher economic classes which would be more likely to have exposure to sailboats including reading about them. Bad example as I would suspect many students would not know the parts of a sailboat.

The other case is the use of vocabulary that might trip up a student when it is not relevant to the area being evaluated in such as math.

I think there is some truth to the bias complaints, but it again appears to be a social economic issue as poor folks simply have worse vocabularies and less general exposure to experiences that give knowledge.

It is important though as vocabulary can be learned. Judgement of capability should not be overweighted towards vocabulary.

It sounds like more of an economical bias rather than racial bias because a middle income to poor white person who isn't familiar with sail boats would have just as hard of a time as the middle income to poor black person. Would you agree?

Ken
SAT and comparable tests are meant to test ability to succeed in college, not meant to measure IQ.

Because of my low economical status, I had lower potential to succeed in college.
It seems to me, a test that accounted for that was fair.

Here is my experience.
First of all, I did score well on my SAT. In 1966 the target score was 1000 to get into a state university of your choice. I scored in the top 10 percent of my high school class, because I am a good test taker. As I recall, nationally I was in the top 25 percent, with a score of 1130. At that time a perfect score of 1600 was extremely rare. The average score for college bound students was 950. My 1130 would be worth over 1200 for 2013 - not Harvard material by any means, but still very respectable.

I was a Spanish language major.
In my freshman class, I was the only Spanish major who had not spent at least one summer in Mexico or Spain. I struggled in my classes, tried hard, could not do better than a 'C' grade. While I spent summers working as a busyboy, my competition was living with Spanish speaking natives.
I had the intelligence to get top grades, but my economical background meant I had to work part time jobs while in college, would not travel abroad in the summers, and generally had a tougher time excelling in college classes.

SAT scores are not meant to measure intelligence.
Employers do not want to know how intelligent you are, they want to know how well you will perform.
I was not 'poor', but some of my friends were.
I was middle class, but in some job markets, (and ,some college majors) that kind of background was poor preparation for success. An SAT test that measured that, would be 'fair', it seems to me.

It seems to me the wealthy have an advantage in the job market.
I have read studies that convincingly demonstrated that children of wealthy parents had high paying jobs with modest potential, and modest effort.
Children of low income parents with the same inherent potential had to expend great effort to reach the same level of financial success.
Children of wealthy parents can do moderately well financially while loafing through life.
A child of poor parents, who has the same IQ and expends the same effort may end up on welfare, or close to it.

Like I've told my kids, life isn't fair, get over it.

Again; it sounds like an economics issue rather than a racial issue.

Ken
Yes, the studies show income is the factor, and race is a tag along issue. For the most part, not completely, but mostly.
That is what I see, looking at the whole issue.
Dilara
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5/17/2016 1:17:56 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
Yes. Asians, whites and men have to score higher on the SATs than other racial groups and women, in order to get spots in the same colleges.
ken1122
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5/17/2016 8:16:08 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/17/2016 1:17:38 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 5/17/2016 12:02:01 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 12:38:51 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 5/16/2016 3:10:46 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 2:33:01 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 1:40:20 AM, ken1122 wrote:
I've heard the many questions on the SAT test were racially biased. Can anyone give an example of such a question that might be on the SAT test that is racially biased?

Ken

Backstay is to Cutter like.

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Pepperoni:pizza
Daughter:mother


The main concern is the use of vocabulary that favors a particular soicio-economic group. In the example I give, which I don't even know if they do on SAT these days, could arguably use a sailboat terms that is irrelevant to success at college and it would favor higher economic classes which would be more likely to have exposure to sailboats including reading about them. Bad example as I would suspect many students would not know the parts of a sailboat.

The other case is the use of vocabulary that might trip up a student when it is not relevant to the area being evaluated in such as math.

I think there is some truth to the bias complaints, but it again appears to be a social economic issue as poor folks simply have worse vocabularies and less general exposure to experiences that give knowledge.

It is important though as vocabulary can be learned. Judgement of capability should not be overweighted towards vocabulary.

It sounds like more of an economical bias rather than racial bias because a middle income to poor white person who isn't familiar with sail boats would have just as hard of a time as the middle income to poor black person. Would you agree?

Ken
SAT and comparable tests are meant to test ability to succeed in college, not meant to measure IQ.

Because of my low economical status, I had lower potential to succeed in college.
It seems to me, a test that accounted for that was fair.

Here is my experience.
First of all, I did score well on my SAT. In 1966 the target score was 1000 to get into a state university of your choice. I scored in the top 10 percent of my high school class, because I am a good test taker. As I recall, nationally I was in the top 25 percent, with a score of 1130. At that time a perfect score of 1600 was extremely rare. The average score for college bound students was 950. My 1130 would be worth over 1200 for 2013 - not Harvard material by any means, but still very respectable.

I was a Spanish language major.
In my freshman class, I was the only Spanish major who had not spent at least one summer in Mexico or Spain. I struggled in my classes, tried hard, could not do better than a 'C' grade. While I spent summers working as a busyboy, my competition was living with Spanish speaking natives.
I had the intelligence to get top grades, but my economical background meant I had to work part time jobs while in college, would not travel abroad in the summers, and generally had a tougher time excelling in college classes.

SAT scores are not meant to measure intelligence.
Employers do not want to know how intelligent you are, they want to know how well you will perform.
I was not 'poor', but some of my friends were.
I was middle class, but in some job markets, (and ,some college majors) that kind of background was poor preparation for success. An SAT test that measured that, would be 'fair', it seems to me.

It seems to me the wealthy have an advantage in the job market.
I have read studies that convincingly demonstrated that children of wealthy parents had high paying jobs with modest potential, and modest effort.
Children of low income parents with the same inherent potential had to expend great effort to reach the same level of financial success.
Children of wealthy parents can do moderately well financially while loafing through life.
A child of poor parents, who has the same IQ and expends the same effort may end up on welfare, or close to it.

Like I've told my kids, life isn't fair, get over it.

Again; it sounds like an economics issue rather than a racial issue.

Ken
Yes, the studies show income is the factor, and race is a tag along issue. For the most part, not completely, but mostly.
That is what I see, looking at the whole issue.

But as I said before, there are more poor whites than poor blacks. How can you call it racist against blacks if most of the people detrimentally effected by it are white?

Ken