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Voter ID cards

liltankjj
Posts: 430
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5/16/2016 9:02:21 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Here is a topic that is beyond me. I only have been able to understand one side of the argument. Why is it opposed by the Democratic party? Voting fraud is very real and I don't understand why we wouldn't do as much as possible to minimize its occurrence. Do share your views on this I am open minded to the opposition because I want to understand it.
KingDavid8
Posts: 63
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5/16/2016 9:31:12 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
I would have no problem with requiring ID to vote, as long as everyone had ID first. The problem is that a lot of poor people can't afford to get ID's, so this would disenfranchise them. Voter fraud of the type that would be prevented by requiring ID's is actually very rare, and has likely never had any effect on elections. But disenfranchising millions of people by requiring them to get something they can't afford before they can vote would have a severe effect on elections. Some Republicans have even openly admitted that the purpose of voter ID laws is to help Republicans win more elections. Alabama even recently started requiring voter ID's, then shut down several DMV's in poor areas to make it even harder for poor people to get the required ID's.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,294
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5/16/2016 9:59:59 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 9:31:12 PM, KingDavid8 wrote:
I would have no problem with requiring ID to vote, as long as everyone had ID first. The problem is that a lot of poor people can't afford to get ID's, so this would disenfranchise them. Voter fraud of the type that would be prevented by requiring ID's is actually very rare, and has likely never had any effect on elections. But disenfranchising millions of people by requiring them to get something they can't afford before they can vote would have a severe effect on elections. Some Republicans have even openly admitted that the purpose of voter ID laws is to help Republicans win more elections. Alabama even recently started requiring voter ID's, then shut down several DMV's in poor areas to make it even harder for poor people to get the required ID's.

ID's are easier to get than food stamps. That's a bad excuse.
KingDavid8
Posts: 63
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5/16/2016 10:07:55 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 9:59:59 PM, Greyparrot wrote:

ID's are easier to get than food stamps. That's a bad excuse.

Not if you're poor.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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5/16/2016 10:10:04 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 9:02:21 PM, liltankjj wrote:
Here is a topic that is beyond me. I only have been able to understand one side of the argument. Why is it opposed by the Democratic party? Voting fraud is very real and I don't understand why we wouldn't do as much as possible to minimize its occurrence. Do share your views on this I am open minded to the opposition because I want to understand it.

Liberals are more likely to commit voter fraud, so they oppose vommon sense laws that would give up their advantage.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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5/16/2016 10:11:29 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 10:07:55 PM, KingDavid8 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 9:59:59 PM, Greyparrot wrote:

ID's are easier to get than food stamps. That's a bad excuse.

Not if you're poor.

I've been homeless and have yet to be without an ID, nor has any other homeless person I hung out with
KingDavid8
Posts: 63
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5/16/2016 10:19:49 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 10:11:29 PM, Wylted wrote:

I've been homeless and have yet to be without an ID, nor has any other homeless person I hung out with

Millions of people don't have them. Make sure everyone has them, and I'd have no problem with voter ID's being required.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,294
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5/16/2016 10:21:21 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 10:19:49 PM, KingDavid8 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 10:11:29 PM, Wylted wrote:

I've been homeless and have yet to be without an ID, nor has any other homeless person I hung out with

Millions of people don't have them. Make sure everyone has them, and I'd have no problem with voter ID's being required.

You make sure people have them by making them mandatory. Stop making excuses.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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5/16/2016 10:25:13 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 10:19:49 PM, KingDavid8 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 10:11:29 PM, Wylted wrote:

I've been homeless and have yet to be without an ID, nor has any other homeless person I hung out with

Millions of people don't have them. Make sure everyone has them, and I'd have no problem with voter ID's being required.

Millions? I don't believe you, can you provide citation?
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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5/16/2016 10:26:24 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 10:21:21 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/16/2016 10:19:49 PM, KingDavid8 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 10:11:29 PM, Wylted wrote:

I've been homeless and have yet to be without an ID, nor has any other homeless person I hung out with

Millions of people don't have them. Make sure everyone has them, and I'd have no problem with voter ID's being required.

You make sure people have them by making them mandatory. Stop making excuses.

You don't even need an ID for absentee ballots, so the ID thing is just a ridiculous excuse anyway.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,294
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5/16/2016 10:48:05 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Almost all government services require SSN and some require a birth cert...all of those are much harder to get than a photo ID.
Fly
Posts: 2,045
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5/16/2016 10:49:08 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 9:02:21 PM, liltankjj wrote:
Here is a topic that is beyond me. I only have been able to understand one side of the argument. Why is it opposed by the Democratic party? Voting fraud is very real and I don't understand why we wouldn't do as much as possible to minimize its occurrence. Do share your views on this I am open minded to the opposition because I want to understand it.

http://www.pbs.org...
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KingDavid8
Posts: 63
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5/16/2016 11:46:49 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 10:25:13 PM, Wylted wrote:

Millions? I don't believe you, can you provide citation?

http://www.politifact.com...

It's rated "half true" for the specific claim being made, that it's around 21 million, but confirms that the number of eligible voters who lack ID's is well into the millions.
walker_harris3
Posts: 273
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5/16/2016 11:52:36 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 9:02:21 PM, liltankjj wrote:
Here is a topic that is beyond me. I only have been able to understand one side of the argument. Why is it opposed by the Democratic party? Voting fraud is very real and I don't understand why we wouldn't do as much as possible to minimize its occurrence. Do share your views on this I am open minded to the opposition because I want to understand it.

It's such a ridiculous argument that it astounds me. First of all, the poor already have held the lowest voter turnout and rate and highest rate of apathy since even before ID cards and this will never change. The poorly educated will never care about politics.

Second of all, they cost maybe a couple of hours of minimum wage work at the most, and where is the worry about the costs of drivers licenses? Are slapping costs on them just another method of systematic racism designed to keep blacks off the road? After all, these drivers licenses are the most widely accepted form of ID at the polls! It's absolutely ridiculous

Third, every state has methods for disabled or the poor to get a voter ID card for free. In fact, here in NC which has received an outrageous amount of criticism for its laws, you can literally go to the DMV and get a free f*cking ID card if you show your social security, proof of residency and your birth certificate. That might be an issue for certain transgenders who like to burn their birth certificates in "protest," but for the reasonable people of the world, it's no issue.

In conclusion, the argument and unwarranted outrage against voter ID cards is quite possibly the STUPIDEST argument EVER.
walker_harris3
Posts: 273
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5/16/2016 11:54:34 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 9:31:12 PM, KingDavid8 wrote:
I would have no problem with requiring ID to vote, as long as everyone had ID first. The problem is that a lot of poor people can't afford to get ID's, so this would disenfranchise them. Voter fraud of the type that would be prevented by requiring ID's is actually very rare, and has likely never had any effect on elections. But disenfranchising millions of people by requiring them to get something they can't afford before they can vote would have a severe effect on elections. Some Republicans have even openly admitted that the purpose of voter ID laws is to help Republicans win more elections. Alabama even recently started requiring voter ID's, then shut down several DMV's in poor areas to make it even harder for poor people to get the required ID's.

http://www.alabamavoterid.com... "How to get a free voter id card in Alabama." Are you stupid or just severely misinformed?
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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5/17/2016 12:00:29 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 11:46:49 PM, KingDavid8 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 10:25:13 PM, Wylted wrote:

Millions? I don't believe you, can you provide citation?

http://www.politifact.com...

It's rated "half true" for the specific claim being made, that it's around 21 million, but confirms that the number of eligible voters who lack ID's is well into the millions.

Politifact stated it was half true, because most people without an ID don't register to vote. When a study was done in Indiana surveying registered voters, close to 1 percent said they did not have access to an ID.

So there is definitely not a big problem with IDs being an impediment to voting, exceot when states go beyond asking for a mere ID and ask for them to be perfectly up to date.

I get the feeling the study was asking about a valid ID seeing as how it was done in Indiana, and the actual number of registeredb voters without ID is significantly below 1%
KingDavid8
Posts: 63
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5/17/2016 1:23:37 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/17/2016 12:00:29 AM, Wylted wrote:

Politifact stated it was half true, because most people without an ID don't register to vote. When a study was done in Indiana surveying registered voters, close to 1 percent said they did not have access to an ID.

No, it says that among registered voters, 95% of whites, 90% of blacks, 89% of latinos and 86% of asians have ID. So somewhere between 5 and 15% of registered voters don't have ID's.

It goes on to say "But when comparing these voters with specific ID requirements of states like Indiana -- licenses had to be current, and names and addresses on the IDs had to comport with the voter registration records -- the researchers found that the percentage of white voters dropped to 88 percent, and the others to 80 or 81 percent."
KingDavid8
Posts: 63
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5/17/2016 1:34:18 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 11:54:34 PM, walker_harris3 wrote:

http://www.alabamavoterid.com... "How to get a free voter id card in Alabama." Are you stupid or just severely misinformed?

It's still difficult to get them in Alabama when most the DMV's in poor areas are closed. It would be great if every state made them free and made sure people had access to get them, but let's make sure everyone has the ID's before we start requiring them in order to vote.
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,315
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5/17/2016 4:11:06 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 10:10:04 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 5/16/2016 9:02:21 PM, liltankjj wrote:
Here is a topic that is beyond me. I only have been able to understand one side of the argument. Why is it opposed by the Democratic party? Voting fraud is very real and I don't understand why we wouldn't do as much as possible to minimize its occurrence. Do share your views on this I am open minded to the opposition because I want to understand it.

Liberals are more likely to commit voter fraud, so they oppose vommon sense laws that would give up their advantage.

Of course the way you phrase this argument is less-than-stellar, you have a valid point. Democrats generally make claims that are pervasive (especially to minority groups who seek recognition) and assure they'll be acting in the best interest of those involved. However, while it may benefit that specific set or group of people, they gloss over the fact it will be a net detriment.
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Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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5/17/2016 6:16:20 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
The number of people for whom an ID requirement would be a deterrent is far greater than the incidences of voter fraud that would be prevented. I acknowledge that voter fraud happens, but I have yet to see any indication that it's a significant problem. This is somewhat akin to the states that tried drug-testing welfare recipients and wound up spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep assistance out of the hands of a dozen people.

That said, I would have no objection to adding an ID requirement as part of a larger effort to secure elections while making them more convenient. Move election day to the weekend, or make it a holiday, and require IDs alongside that, but with stations at polling places to help people get IDs prior to voting, and that would be fine with me.

Unfortunately for conservatives, so many ID requirement efforts have been used to disenfranchise non-conservative voters. This has ranged from politicians explicitly saying as much to less explicit, though still obvious, laws like disqualifying college IDs but counting NRA cards as valid. This is why the topic is so contentious. A comprehensive solution, like I mentioned above, would be much better for everyone.
liltankjj
Posts: 430
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5/18/2016 9:00:39 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 9:31:12 PM, KingDavid8 wrote:
I would have no problem with requiring ID to vote, as long as everyone had ID first. The problem is that a lot of poor people can't afford to get ID's, so this would disenfranchise them. Voter fraud of the type that would be prevented by requiring ID's is actually very rare, and has likely never had any effect on elections. But disenfranchising millions of people by requiring them to get something they can't afford before they can vote would have a severe effect on elections. Some Republicans have even openly admitted that the purpose of voter ID laws is to help Republicans win more elections. Alabama even recently started requiring voter ID's, then shut down several DMV's in poor areas to make it even harder for poor people to get the required ID's.

Well first off thanks for the honest response. I don't think the poor not being able to afford the id's is good argument. With out empirical data, there isn't much evidence beside anecdotal data. As for voter fraud being rare, that is another argument that is hard accept just from word of mouth.
liltankjj
Posts: 430
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5/18/2016 9:02:03 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 10:25:13 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 5/16/2016 10:19:49 PM, KingDavid8 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 10:11:29 PM, Wylted wrote:

I've been homeless and have yet to be without an ID, nor has any other homeless person I hung out with

Millions of people don't have them. Make sure everyone has them, and I'd have no problem with voter ID's being required.

Millions? I don't believe you, can you provide citation?

All the reasoning behind his stance is incredibly anecdotal.
liltankjj
Posts: 430
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5/18/2016 9:04:43 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 10:49:08 PM, Fly wrote:
At 5/16/2016 9:02:21 PM, liltankjj wrote:
Here is a topic that is beyond me. I only have been able to understand one side of the argument. Why is it opposed by the Democratic party? Voting fraud is very real and I don't understand why we wouldn't do as much as possible to minimize its occurrence. Do share your views on this I am open minded to the opposition because I want to understand it.

http://www.pbs.org...

Thanks for the share. It is mostly the same thing Iv'e heard already, besides the absentee ballots. That's interesting.
liltankjj
Posts: 430
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5/18/2016 9:06:48 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 11:52:36 PM, walker_harris3 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 9:02:21 PM, liltankjj wrote:
Here is a topic that is beyond me. I only have been able to understand one side of the argument. Why is it opposed by the Democratic party? Voting fraud is very real and I don't understand why we wouldn't do as much as possible to minimize its occurrence. Do share your views on this I am open minded to the opposition because I want to understand it.

It's such a ridiculous argument that it astounds me. First of all, the poor already have held the lowest voter turnout and rate and highest rate of apathy since even before ID cards and this will never change. The poorly educated will never care about politics.

Second of all, they cost maybe a couple of hours of minimum wage work at the most, and where is the worry about the costs of drivers licenses? Are slapping costs on them just another method of systematic racism designed to keep blacks off the road? After all, these drivers licenses are the most widely accepted form of ID at the polls! It's absolutely ridiculous

Third, every state has methods for disabled or the poor to get a voter ID card for free. In fact, here in NC which has received an outrageous amount of criticism for its laws, you can literally go to the DMV and get a free f*cking ID card if you show your social security, proof of residency and your birth certificate. That might be an issue for certain transgenders who like to burn their birth certificates in "protest," but for the reasonable people of the world, it's no issue.

In conclusion, the argument and unwarranted outrage against voter ID cards is quite possibly the STUPIDEST argument EVER.

well said
liltankjj
Posts: 430
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5/18/2016 9:08:07 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 11:54:34 PM, walker_harris3 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 9:31:12 PM, KingDavid8 wrote:
I would have no problem with requiring ID to vote, as long as everyone had ID first. The problem is that a lot of poor people can't afford to get ID's, so this would disenfranchise them. Voter fraud of the type that would be prevented by requiring ID's is actually very rare, and has likely never had any effect on elections. But disenfranchising millions of people by requiring them to get something they can't afford before they can vote would have a severe effect on elections. Some Republicans have even openly admitted that the purpose of voter ID laws is to help Republicans win more elections. Alabama even recently started requiring voter ID's, then shut down several DMV's in poor areas to make it even harder for poor people to get the required ID's.

http://www.alabamavoterid.com... "How to get a free voter id card in Alabama." Are you stupid or just severely misinformed?

I would lean on misinformed. I don't believe the gentleman is stupid but good share.
liltankjj
Posts: 430
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5/18/2016 9:11:45 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/17/2016 6:16:20 PM, Burzmali wrote:
The number of people for whom an ID requirement would be a deterrent is far greater than the incidences of voter fraud that would be prevented. I acknowledge that voter fraud happens, but I have yet to see any indication that it's a significant problem. This is somewhat akin to the states that tried drug-testing welfare recipients and wound up spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep assistance out of the hands of a dozen people.

That said, I would have no objection to adding an ID requirement as part of a larger effort to secure elections while making them more convenient. Move election day to the weekend, or make it a holiday, and require IDs alongside that, but with stations at polling places to help people get IDs prior to voting, and that would be fine with me.

Unfortunately for conservatives, so many ID requirement efforts have been used to disenfranchise non-conservative voters. This has ranged from politicians explicitly saying as much to less explicit, though still obvious, laws like disqualifying college IDs but counting NRA cards as valid. This is why the topic is so contentious. A comprehensive solution, like I mentioned above, would be much better for everyone.

I agree with your ideas on how to make voter id's more effective, but I don't think I align entirely with the statement on conservatives. Not saying it hasn't happened but I don't believe it is unique to conservatives.
Death23
Posts: 781
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5/18/2016 9:32:57 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 10:48:05 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Almost all government services require SSN and some require a birth cert...all of those are much harder to get than a photo ID.

So what?
KingDavid8
Posts: 63
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5/18/2016 9:48:59 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 9:00:39 PM, liltankjj wrote:

Well first off thanks for the honest response. I don't think the poor not being able to afford the id's is good argument. With out empirical data, there isn't much evidence beside anecdotal data. As for voter fraud being rare, that is another argument that is hard accept just from word of mouth.

It hardly matters why. The fact is that millions of people don't have ID, which would disenfranchise them if we required ID. Make sure every eligible voter has an ID, and I'd have no problem with requiring them to vote.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,294
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5/18/2016 9:49:50 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 9:32:57 PM, Death23 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 10:48:05 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Almost all government services require SSN and some require a birth cert...all of those are much harder to get than a photo ID.

So what?

So it isn't a problem for poor people on government assistance.
Death23
Posts: 781
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5/18/2016 9:51:10 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 9:49:50 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/18/2016 9:32:57 PM, Death23 wrote:
At 5/16/2016 10:48:05 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Almost all government services require SSN and some require a birth cert...all of those are much harder to get than a photo ID.

So what?

So it isn't a problem for poor people on government assistance.

https://scholar.google.com...

The ecological regression analysis performed by Dr. Stephen Ansolabehere, an expert in American electoral politics and statistical methods in political science, which compared the No-Match List with census data, revealed that Hispanic registered voters and Black registered voters were respectively 195% and 305% more likely than their Anglo peers to lack SB 14 ID. Id. According to Dr. Ansolabehere, this disparity is "statistically significant and highly unlikely to have arisen by chance." The block group analysis yielded similar results, and other experts arrived at similar conclusions. Id. These statistical analyses of the No-Match List were corroborated by a survey of over 2,300 eligible Texas voters, which concluded that Blacks were 1.78 times more likely than Whites, and Latinos 2.42 times more likely, to lack SB 14 ID. Id. at 662-63. Even the study performed by the State's expert, which the district court found suffered from "severe methodological oversights," found that 4% of eligible White voters lacked SB 14 ID, compared to 5.3% of eligible Black voters and 6.9% of eligible Hispanic voters. Id. at 663 & n. 239. The district court thus credited the testimony and analyses of Plaintiffs' three experts, each of which found that SB 14 disparately impacts African-American and Hispanic registered voters in Texas.