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Yiannopoulos explains conservatism

tejretics
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5/25/2016 8:03:24 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
https://www.youtube.com...

I think Milo Yiannopoulos -- if you haven't heard of him, he's a center-right journalist who is most well-known for his criticism of the postmodern social justice movement -- offers the best summation of conservatism that I've heard.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
tejretics
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5/25/2016 11:10:40 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 9:17:54 AM, 16kadams wrote:
http://www.kirkcenter.org...

That article is biased... it has some non-unique stuff ("conservatives believe in helping the people, unlike liberals" is basically the article, lol).
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
slo1
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5/25/2016 12:25:50 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 8:03:24 AM, tejretics wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

I think Milo Yiannopoulos -- if you haven't heard of him, he's a center-right journalist who is most well-known for his criticism of the postmodern social justice movement -- offers the best summation of conservatism that I've heard.

"Conservatives innately understand the value of tradition and authority."

Yet, he is not a social conservative nor living by the values of traditional Christian values. He sounds more confused than anything when analyzing his words.
slo1
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5/25/2016 12:37:30 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 9:17:54 AM, 16kadams wrote:
http://www.kirkcenter.org...

For the preservation of a healthy diversity in any civilization, there must survive orders and classes, differences in material condition, and many sorts of inequality. The only true forms of equality are equality at the Last Judgment and equality before a just court of law; all other attempts at levelling must lead, at best, to social stagnation.

Translation,

For there to be a successful upper class there needs to be lower classes who will be discriminated against and abused because not everyone can be in upper class and that is because God says so MO FO
Greyparrot
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5/25/2016 12:47:34 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 12:37:30 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 9:17:54 AM, 16kadams wrote:
http://www.kirkcenter.org...

For the preservation of a healthy diversity in any civilization, there must survive orders and classes, differences in material condition, and many sorts of inequality. The only true forms of equality are equality at the Last Judgment and equality before a just court of law; all other attempts at levelling must lead, at best, to social stagnation.

Translation,

For there to be a successful upper class there needs to be lower classes who will be discriminated against and abused because not everyone can be in upper class and that is because God says so MO FO

Everyone is born different.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,289
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5/25/2016 12:53:36 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 8:03:24 AM, tejretics wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

I think Milo Yiannopoulos -- if you haven't heard of him, he's a center-right journalist who is most well-known for his criticism of the postmodern social justice movement -- offers the best summation of conservatism that I've heard.

I've met plenty of dim people in both camps, but in my experience the most impressive people as far as intellect go possess at least a dash of conservatism. This is because conservatism is, essentially, born of a real understanding of history and human nature. It's born of healthy cynicism, and the important, but difficult, realization that the truth can be corrosive, and that society is built, to a large degree, on various pious fictions.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Greyparrot
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5/25/2016 12:57:13 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 12:53:36 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 5/25/2016 8:03:24 AM, tejretics wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

I think Milo Yiannopoulos -- if you haven't heard of him, he's a center-right journalist who is most well-known for his criticism of the postmodern social justice movement -- offers the best summation of conservatism that I've heard.

I've met plenty of dim people in both camps, but in my experience the most impressive people as far as intellect go possess at least a dash of conservatism. This is because conservatism is, essentially, born of a real understanding of history and human nature. It's born of healthy cynicism, and the important, but difficult, realization that the truth can be corrosive, and that society is built, to a large degree, on various pious fictions.

The illusion of equality is the death of understanding?
TN05
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5/25/2016 2:46:56 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 9:17:54 AM, 16kadams wrote:
http://www.kirkcenter.org...

eh

First, the conservative believes that there exists an enduring moral order.

Sure, there is obviously a moral order.

Second, the conservative adheres to custom, convention, and continuity.

Disagree. When custom, convention, and continuity are bad, the conservative reject them. By this 'standard', conservatives in the Revolutionary War would be bound to side with Britain. The conservative does not accept the results of the past just because it came from the past - the conservative weighs whether or not they conflict with liberty. When it does, the conservative works to change it.

Third, conservatives believe in what may be called the principle of prescription

Disagree to an extent here. Morally, there is no doubt we have better standards set by earlier people, but we are not bound to defend all of them. The idea that "The individual is foolish, but the species is wise" is pure collectivist nonsense. Conservatism is rooted in individualism, not collectivism.

Fourth, conservatives are guided by their principle of prudence.

Agree 100%

Fifth, conservatives pay attention to the principle of variety.

Agree to an extent. The goal of government is not to promote egalitarianism, but equality under the law. However, I reject the idea of the necessity of "orders and classes" is silly. Orders and classes change over time. Again, by this standard the Kirkian conservative is bound to reject the American revolution and clamor for monarchy and state religion.

Sixth, conservatives are chastened by their principle of imperfectability.

Agree to an extent. Utopia is impossible. Society can be improved but never even close to perfected.

Seventh, conservatives are persuaded that freedom and property are closely linked.

Agree

Eighth, conservatives uphold voluntary community, quite as they oppose involuntary collectivism.

Agree

Ninth, the conservative perceives the need for prudent restraints upon power and upon human passions.

Agree

Tenth, the thinking conservative understands that permanence and change must be recognized and reconciled in a vigorous society.

Agree
slo1
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5/25/2016 3:43:10 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 12:47:34 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/25/2016 12:37:30 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 9:17:54 AM, 16kadams wrote:
http://www.kirkcenter.org...

For the preservation of a healthy diversity in any civilization, there must survive orders and classes, differences in material condition, and many sorts of inequality. The only true forms of equality are equality at the Last Judgment and equality before a just court of law; all other attempts at levelling must lead, at best, to social stagnation.

Translation,

For there to be a successful upper class there needs to be lower classes who will be discriminated against and abused because not everyone can be in upper class and that is because God says so MO FO

Everyone is born different.

What does that got to do with "healthy diversity" and the need for "classes" to maintain it. Classes of red heads versus Brown heads?
Greyparrot
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5/25/2016 3:51:48 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 3:43:10 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 12:47:34 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/25/2016 12:37:30 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 9:17:54 AM, 16kadams wrote:
http://www.kirkcenter.org...

For the preservation of a healthy diversity in any civilization, there must survive orders and classes, differences in material condition, and many sorts of inequality. The only true forms of equality are equality at the Last Judgment and equality before a just court of law; all other attempts at levelling must lead, at best, to social stagnation.

Translation,

For there to be a successful upper class there needs to be lower classes who will be discriminated against and abused because not everyone can be in upper class and that is because God says so MO FO

Everyone is born different.

What does that got to do with "healthy diversity" and the need for "classes" to maintain it. Classes of red heads versus Brown heads?

Because not everyone is born with the skills and ambition to perform in upper management.

Why do you think there is a SAT test? In a sense, I guess if you believe in divine design, God made some people stupid and barely functionable in society...so God actually says so...
Fly
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5/25/2016 5:32:34 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 12:37:30 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 9:17:54 AM, 16kadams wrote:
http://www.kirkcenter.org...

For the preservation of a healthy diversity in any civilization, there must survive orders and classes, differences in material condition, and many sorts of inequality. The only true forms of equality are equality at the Last Judgment and equality before a just court of law; all other attempts at levelling must lead, at best, to social stagnation.

Translation,

For there to be a successful upper class there needs to be lower classes who will be discriminated against and abused because not everyone can be in upper class and that is because God says so MO FO

Yes-- while equality of outcome is not realistic, materially at least, conservatives seem content with inequality of opportunity to a disturbing degree. Society should strive to assure that every citizen is given the opportunity to achieve their potential.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
16kadams
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5/25/2016 5:40:09 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 2:46:56 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 9:17:54 AM, 16kadams wrote:
http://www.kirkcenter.org...

eh

First, the conservative believes that there exists an enduring moral order.

Sure, there is obviously a moral order.

Second, the conservative adheres to custom, convention, and continuity.

Disagree. When custom, convention, and continuity are bad, the conservative reject them. By this 'standard', conservatives in the Revolutionary War would be bound to side with Britain. The conservative does not accept the results of the past just because it came from the past - the conservative weighs whether or not they conflict with liberty. When it does, the conservative works to change it.

He actually clarifies this elsewhere and says what you say. "Progress may be either good or bad, depending on what one is progressing toward." http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org...

Third, conservatives believe in what may be called the principle of prescription

Disagree to an extent here. Morally, there is no doubt we have better standards set by earlier people, but we are not bound to defend all of them. The idea that "The individual is foolish, but the species is wise" is pure collectivist nonsense. Conservatism is rooted in individualism, not collectivism.

Conservatives aren't as rooted in individualism as classical liberals or libertarians are. The simple fact is, the individualist "if it feels good, do it" is not a conservative principle, and that is what I think he is getting at. He is saying that institutions society has created were created for a reason, and many of them are necessary to constrain extreme individualism, which is not something I disagree with. Robert P. George elaborates on this in his book "Conscience and Its Enemies," which I think you would like a lot.

Fourth, conservatives are guided by their principle of prudence.

Agree 100%

Fifth, conservatives pay attention to the principle of variety.

Agree to an extent. The goal of government is not to promote egalitarianism, but equality under the law. However, I reject the idea of the necessity of "orders and classes" is silly. Orders and classes change over time.

I don't think what he says contradicts that. He is just saying that inequality of outcomes is inevitable (and desirable) to a certain degree.

Again, by this standard the Kirkian conservative is bound to reject the American revolution and clamor for monarchy and state religion.

No, because he worries that the abolition of inequality--or, I think what he may also be referring to, the end of the market system and private property--will lead to "some tyrant or host of squalid oligarchs" rising up, something which he opposes, and something the crown represents. The link I posted above I think is much better than this one in being clear as to what he means by traditions and progress.


Sixth, conservatives are chastened by their principle of imperfectability.

Agree to an extent. Utopia is impossible. Society can be improved but never even close to perfected.

Seventh, conservatives are persuaded that freedom and property are closely linked.

Agree

Eighth, conservatives uphold voluntary community, quite as they oppose involuntary collectivism.

Agree

Ninth, the conservative perceives the need for prudent restraints upon power and upon human passions.

Agree

Tenth, the thinking conservative understands that permanence and change must be recognized and reconciled in a vigorous society.

Agree
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
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5/25/2016 5:49:20 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 12:37:30 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 9:17:54 AM, 16kadams wrote:
http://www.kirkcenter.org...

For the preservation of a healthy diversity in any civilization, there must survive orders and classes, differences in material condition, and many sorts of inequality. The only true forms of equality are equality at the Last Judgment and equality before a just court of law; all other attempts at levelling must lead, at best, to social stagnation.

Translation,

For there to be a successful upper class there needs to be lower classes who will be discriminated against and abused because not everyone can be in upper class and that is because God says so MO FO

His view there is a bit extreme, I must admit, though I agree with him that inequality of outcomes is inevitable and, to some degree, desirable. I think his view is too simplistic on ensuring equality of opportunity, though (only pushing for intervention via courts and... God... won't cut it).
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
TN05
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5/25/2016 5:57:15 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 5:40:09 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 5/25/2016 2:46:56 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 9:17:54 AM, 16kadams wrote:
http://www.kirkcenter.org...

eh

First, the conservative believes that there exists an enduring moral order.

Sure, there is obviously a moral order.

Second, the conservative adheres to custom, convention, and continuity.

Disagree. When custom, convention, and continuity are bad, the conservative reject them. By this 'standard', conservatives in the Revolutionary War would be bound to side with Britain. The conservative does not accept the results of the past just because it came from the past - the conservative weighs whether or not they conflict with liberty. When it does, the conservative works to change it.

He actually clarifies this elsewhere and says what you say. "Progress may be either good or bad, depending on what one is progressing toward." http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org...

I wouldn't disagree. But the need to clarify demonstrates a big issue with that blanket statement. By placing preserving institutions as the key of conservatism rather than preserving liberty, it becomes hard to justify changing anything, ever.

Third, conservatives believe in what may be called the principle of prescription

Disagree to an extent here. Morally, there is no doubt we have better standards set by earlier people, but we are not bound to defend all of them. The idea that "The individual is foolish, but the species is wise" is pure collectivist nonsense. Conservatism is rooted in individualism, not collectivism.

Conservatives aren't as rooted in individualism as classical liberals or libertarians are. The simple fact is, the individualist "if it feels good, do it" is not a conservative principle, and that is what I think he is getting at. He is saying that institutions society has created were created for a reason, and many of them are necessary to constrain extreme individualism, which is not something I disagree with.

Ah, I'd disagree with the idea feeling something makes it good. That's left-liberal hyper-individualism. Feelings can't outweigh reality, and rights come from God, not man. The classical liberalism of the Founders demonstrated this - I can't remember which it was, but one of them said something along the lines of "If men were angels, they wouldn't need government".

I wouldn't argue lightly to abolish institutions, but to take care and only abolish ones that infringe on liberty.

Robert P. George elaborates on this in his book "Conscience and Its Enemies," which I think you would like a lot.

I'll have to check it out

Fourth, conservatives are guided by their principle of prudence.

Agree 100%

Fifth, conservatives pay attention to the principle of variety.

Agree to an extent. The goal of government is not to promote egalitarianism, but equality under the law. However, I reject the idea of the necessity of "orders and classes" is silly. Orders and classes change over time.

I don't think what he says contradicts that. He is just saying that inequality of outcomes is inevitable (and desirable) to a certain degree.

If that's the case I don't see a fundamentally big difference between what he's arguing and Lockean classical liberalism.

Again, by this standard the Kirkian conservative is bound to reject the American revolution and clamor for monarchy and state religion.

No, because he worries that the abolition of inequality--or, I think what he may also be referring to, the end of the market system and private property--will lead to "some tyrant or host of squalid oligarchs" rising up, something which he opposes, and something the crown represents. The link I posted above I think is much better than this one in being clear as to what he means by traditions and progress.

This is also something the classical liberal, especially in the Founding Fathers sense, wouldn't disagree with. If anything they designed new institutions (the Senate, Courts, electoral college) to prevent the abolition of inequality.

Sixth, conservatives are chastened by their principle of imperfectability.

Agree to an extent. Utopia is impossible. Society can be improved but never even close to perfected.

Seventh, conservatives are persuaded that freedom and property are closely linked.

Agree

Eighth, conservatives uphold voluntary community, quite as they oppose involuntary collectivism.

Agree

Ninth, the conservative perceives the need for prudent restraints upon power and upon human passions.

Agree

Tenth, the thinking conservative understands that permanence and change must be recognized and reconciled in a vigorous society.

Agree
someloser
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5/25/2016 9:05:08 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
interesting. good find OP
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
bballcrook21
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5/25/2016 9:36:44 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 12:53:36 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 5/25/2016 8:03:24 AM, tejretics wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

I think Milo Yiannopoulos -- if you haven't heard of him, he's a center-right journalist who is most well-known for his criticism of the postmodern social justice movement -- offers the best summation of conservatism that I've heard.

I've met plenty of dim people in both camps, but in my experience the most impressive people as far as intellect go possess at least a dash of conservatism. This is because conservatism is, essentially, born of a real understanding of history and human nature. It's born of healthy cynicism, and the important, but difficult, realization that the truth can be corrosive, and that society is built, to a large degree, on various pious fictions.

I like that statement.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
bballcrook21
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5/25/2016 9:37:22 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
I like Yiannopoulos a lot. He was in town here in Chicago at DePaul yesterday, and I was unable to go as I didn't want to see the savages that would later disrupt the meeting.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
Wylted
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5/25/2016 10:33:02 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
A lot of time conservatives have the same core values as liberals, they just don't force their morals on people.

A pro gay marriage conservative will give moral support to the cause, while a liberal will mandate everyone support it by fining bakers for not baking a cake in support of it.

A conservative who thinks cigarrettes are unhealthy will avoid them, while a liberal will punish smokers with excessive taxes on the product and making it illegal for businesses to allow indoor smoking.

The list extends forever
Skepsikyma
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5/25/2016 11:00:33 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 9:36:44 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 12:53:36 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 5/25/2016 8:03:24 AM, tejretics wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

I think Milo Yiannopoulos -- if you haven't heard of him, he's a center-right journalist who is most well-known for his criticism of the postmodern social justice movement -- offers the best summation of conservatism that I've heard.

I've met plenty of dim people in both camps, but in my experience the most impressive people as far as intellect go possess at least a dash of conservatism. This is because conservatism is, essentially, born of a real understanding of history and human nature. It's born of healthy cynicism, and the important, but difficult, realization that the truth can be corrosive, and that society is built, to a large degree, on various pious fictions.

I like that statement.

I think that this literary criticism of T. S. Eliot sums up my feelings on this brand of conservatism:

'Remember how I said there"s a certain kind of conservatism which I respect more than bourgeois liberalism"Eliot is of this type. Of course, the dichotomy he maintains is reactionary, but it"s due to a deep fatalism, not ignorance. (Counter him with Yeats or Pound, who, arising from the same milieu, opted to support Hitler and Mussolini.)

And this fatalism is born out of the relation between fertility and death, which I touched on in my last letter"life feeds on itself. A fatalism I share with the western tradition at times.'
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Greyparrot
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5/25/2016 11:25:26 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 5:32:34 PM, Fly wrote:

Yes-- while equality of outcome is not realistic, materially at least, conservatives seem content with inequality of opportunity to a disturbing degree. Society should strive to assure that every citizen is given the opportunity to achieve their potential.

I kind of enjoy the thought of THE MAN keeping me down, because the alternative would be too devastating to bear.
slo1
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5/26/2016 12:39:05 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 5:32:34 PM, Fly wrote:
At 5/25/2016 12:37:30 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 9:17:54 AM, 16kadams wrote:
http://www.kirkcenter.org...

For the preservation of a healthy diversity in any civilization, there must survive orders and classes, differences in material condition, and many sorts of inequality. The only true forms of equality are equality at the Last Judgment and equality before a just court of law; all other attempts at levelling must lead, at best, to social stagnation.

Translation,

For there to be a successful upper class there needs to be lower classes who will be discriminated against and abused because not everyone can be in upper class and that is because God says so MO FO

Yes-- while equality of outcome is not realistic, materially at least, conservatives seem content with inequality of opportunity to a disturbing degree. Society should strive to assure that every citizen is given the opportunity to achieve their potential.

Agreed. At very least it should strive for an equal playing field and deal with injustice when it is staring one in the face such as incarceration rates of blacks versus whites for marijuana related crime.

Since conservativism supposedly values just judicial institutions, one would think they would play a leading role correcting such an undisputible injustice.
slo1
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5/26/2016 12:44:46 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 3:51:48 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/25/2016 3:43:10 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 12:47:34 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/25/2016 12:37:30 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 9:17:54 AM, 16kadams wrote:
http://www.kirkcenter.org...

For the preservation of a healthy diversity in any civilization, there must survive orders and classes, differences in material condition, and many sorts of inequality. The only true forms of equality are equality at the Last Judgment and equality before a just court of law; all other attempts at levelling must lead, at best, to social stagnation.

Translation,

For there to be a successful upper class there needs to be lower classes who will be discriminated against and abused because not everyone can be in upper class and that is because God says so MO FO

Everyone is born different.

What does that got to do with "healthy diversity" and the need for "classes" to maintain it. Classes of red heads versus Brown heads?

Because not everyone is born with the skills and ambition to perform in upper management.

Why do you think there is a SAT test? In a sense, I guess if you believe in divine design, God made some people stupid and barely functionable in society...so God actually says so...

If that was the message the author is trying to portray in that passage then every person on this green earth is conservative because I have yet to meet or read anyone who believes everyone should be an NBA star. What you trying to convey seems to be a strawman, avoiding the topic of what exact classes of humanity are needed to optimally function as a society.
Fly
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5/26/2016 1:13:09 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/26/2016 12:39:05 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 5:32:34 PM, Fly wrote:
At 5/25/2016 12:37:30 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 9:17:54 AM, 16kadams wrote:
http://www.kirkcenter.org...

For the preservation of a healthy diversity in any civilization, there must survive orders and classes, differences in material condition, and many sorts of inequality. The only true forms of equality are equality at the Last Judgment and equality before a just court of law; all other attempts at levelling must lead, at best, to social stagnation.

Translation,

For there to be a successful upper class there needs to be lower classes who will be discriminated against and abused because not everyone can be in upper class and that is because God says so MO FO

Yes-- while equality of outcome is not realistic, materially at least, conservatives seem content with inequality of opportunity to a disturbing degree. Society should strive to assure that every citizen is given the opportunity to achieve their potential.

Agreed. At very least it should strive for an equal playing field and deal with injustice when it is staring one in the face such as incarceration rates of blacks versus whites for marijuana related crime.

Since conservativism supposedly values just judicial institutions, one would think they would play a leading role correcting such an undisputible injustice.

The two major political parties work more to preserve their power than to forward their respective ideologies in any pure fashion-- one sees the same happen with labor unions, unfortunately.

The GOP actually works actively against equality in a thinly veiled fashion because if the majority of the people who have been kept "less equal" were motivated and able to vote, they would not be voting for the GOP.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,337
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5/26/2016 1:31:51 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/26/2016 12:44:46 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 3:51:48 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/25/2016 3:43:10 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 12:47:34 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/25/2016 12:37:30 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 9:17:54 AM, 16kadams wrote:
http://www.kirkcenter.org...

For the preservation of a healthy diversity in any civilization, there must survive orders and classes, differences in material condition, and many sorts of inequality. The only true forms of equality are equality at the Last Judgment and equality before a just court of law; all other attempts at levelling must lead, at best, to social stagnation.

Translation,

For there to be a successful upper class there needs to be lower classes who will be discriminated against and abused because not everyone can be in upper class and that is because God says so MO FO

Everyone is born different.

What does that got to do with "healthy diversity" and the need for "classes" to maintain it. Classes of red heads versus Brown heads?

Because not everyone is born with the skills and ambition to perform in upper management.

Why do you think there is a SAT test? In a sense, I guess if you believe in divine design, God made some people stupid and barely functionable in society...so God actually says so...

If that was the message the author is trying to portray in that passage then every person on this green earth is conservative because I have yet to meet or read anyone who believes everyone should be an NBA star. What you trying to convey seems to be a strawman, avoiding the topic of what exact classes of humanity are needed to optimally function as a society.

I can tell you exactly what optimal is. Perfect cloning.
Fly
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5/26/2016 1:45:50 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 11:25:26 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/25/2016 5:32:34 PM, Fly wrote:

Yes-- while equality of outcome is not realistic, materially at least, conservatives seem content with inequality of opportunity to a disturbing degree. Society should strive to assure that every citizen is given the opportunity to achieve their potential.

I kind of enjoy the thought of THE MAN keeping me down, because the alternative would be too devastating to bear.

That is as cute as it is oversimplified.

Some people will strive to accomplish their goals no matter what-- that sort of drive is not common and is duly admired because of that fact. More common are those who get discouraged from their goals by life's obstacles and demands-- or worse, they have no gaols precisely because the obstacles seem to great. The US has many of these obstacles: mediocre education-- downright bad in poor areas, expensive higher education, expensive healthcare, expensive elder care, expensive child care, high incarceration rates, etc. Why be content-- or even sanctimonious (wink)-- with ALL of those obstacles remaining large if they can be mitigated? It's a matter of setting priorities. Instead, almost half of us are proud of our obstacles in the social ladder, thanks to a pretty slick propaganda campaign.

The US once set the example to the rest of the world with its ideals. Now, other countries are beating us at our own game...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Fly
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5/26/2016 1:47:37 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
Edit: *goals* and *TOO great*
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,289
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5/26/2016 3:56:00 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 11:25:26 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/25/2016 5:32:34 PM, Fly wrote:

Yes-- while equality of outcome is not realistic, materially at least, conservatives seem content with inequality of opportunity to a disturbing degree. Society should strive to assure that every citizen is given the opportunity to achieve their potential.

I kind of enjoy the thought of THE MAN keeping me down

Me too, probably for different reasons...
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Greyparrot
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5/26/2016 5:40:44 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/26/2016 3:56:00 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 5/25/2016 11:25:26 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/25/2016 5:32:34 PM, Fly wrote:

Yes-- while equality of outcome is not realistic, materially at least, conservatives seem content with inequality of opportunity to a disturbing degree. Society should strive to assure that every citizen is given the opportunity to achieve their potential.

I kind of enjoy the thought of THE MAN keeping me down

Me too, probably for different reasons...

Well played sir.