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Should scientific papers be free?

Hayd
Posts: 4,022
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5/28/2016 11:30:45 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
A European Union member claimed that access to all scientific papers will be free by 2020
http://www.sciencemag.org...

My intuition tells me I am for it, for it basically eliminates the middle man companies like JSTOR. I'm curious how important the paywalls are for the researchers, and if eliminating them would impact the scientists. Although, having unlimited access to all scientific papers will be a net benefit to people like me. Interesting regardless
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,289
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5/28/2016 11:40:21 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/28/2016 11:30:45 PM, Hayd wrote:
A European Union member claimed that access to all scientific papers will be free by 2020
http://www.sciencemag.org...

My intuition tells me I am for it, for it basically eliminates the middle man companies like JSTOR. I'm curious how important the paywalls are for the researchers, and if eliminating them would impact the scientists. Although, having unlimited access to all scientific papers will be a net benefit to people like me. Interesting regardless

The government ought to run a JSTOR-esque site. It would make everything work so much better.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Hayd
Posts: 4,022
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5/29/2016 12:04:10 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/28/2016 11:40:21 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 5/28/2016 11:30:45 PM, Hayd wrote:
A European Union member claimed that access to all scientific papers will be free by 2020
http://www.sciencemag.org...

My intuition tells me I am for it, for it basically eliminates the middle man companies like JSTOR. I'm curious how important the paywalls are for the researchers, and if eliminating them would impact the scientists. Although, having unlimited access to all scientific papers will be a net benefit to people like me. Interesting regardless

The government ought to run a JSTOR-esque site. It would make everything work so much better.

Yeah, but free stuff :(
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,289
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5/29/2016 12:07:20 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/29/2016 12:04:10 AM, Hayd wrote:
At 5/28/2016 11:40:21 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 5/28/2016 11:30:45 PM, Hayd wrote:
A European Union member claimed that access to all scientific papers will be free by 2020
http://www.sciencemag.org...

My intuition tells me I am for it, for it basically eliminates the middle man companies like JSTOR. I'm curious how important the paywalls are for the researchers, and if eliminating them would impact the scientists. Although, having unlimited access to all scientific papers will be a net benefit to people like me. Interesting regardless

The government ought to run a JSTOR-esque site. It would make everything work so much better.

Yeah, but free stuff :(

Lol, we pay for it through taxpayer subsidies, then a middle man leeches off of the taxpayer to make an obscene profit. The researchers don't see any money for it.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,860
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5/29/2016 12:11:49 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/28/2016 11:30:45 PM, Hayd wrote:
A European Union member claimed that access to all scientific papers will be free by 2020
http://www.sciencemag.org...

My intuition tells me I am for it, for it basically eliminates the middle man companies like JSTOR. I'm curious how important the paywalls are for the researchers, and if eliminating them would impact the scientists. Although, having unlimited access to all scientific papers will be a net benefit to people like me. Interesting regardless

Well, there's usually ways around it. Like for some scientific papers you can request permission from the authors. Sometimes your state has a free database or your local public library that you can access without paying.
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Hayd
Posts: 4,022
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5/29/2016 12:12:13 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/29/2016 12:07:20 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 5/29/2016 12:04:10 AM, Hayd wrote:
At 5/28/2016 11:40:21 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 5/28/2016 11:30:45 PM, Hayd wrote:
A European Union member claimed that access to all scientific papers will be free by 2020
http://www.sciencemag.org...

My intuition tells me I am for it, for it basically eliminates the middle man companies like JSTOR. I'm curious how important the paywalls are for the researchers, and if eliminating them would impact the scientists. Although, having unlimited access to all scientific papers will be a net benefit to people like me. Interesting regardless

The government ought to run a JSTOR-esque site. It would make everything work so much better.

Yeah, but free stuff :(

Lol, we pay for it through taxpayer subsidies, then a middle man leeches off of the taxpayer to make an obscene profit. The researchers don't see any money for it.

That's not good...
Hayd
Posts: 4,022
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5/29/2016 12:16:26 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/29/2016 12:11:49 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 5/28/2016 11:30:45 PM, Hayd wrote:
A European Union member claimed that access to all scientific papers will be free by 2020
http://www.sciencemag.org...

My intuition tells me I am for it, for it basically eliminates the middle man companies like JSTOR. I'm curious how important the paywalls are for the researchers, and if eliminating them would impact the scientists. Although, having unlimited access to all scientific papers will be a net benefit to people like me. Interesting regardless

Well, there's usually ways around it. Like for some scientific papers you can request permission from the authors. Sometimes your state has a free database or your local public library that you can access without paying.

Yeah, I just use library Genesis. They basically have every article for free on their website, I think they pirated them.
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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5/29/2016 12:17:54 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
Yes. More importantly, transparent peer review is a must.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
1harderthanyouthink
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5/29/2016 12:28:39 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
Absolutely.
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And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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Hayd
Posts: 4,022
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5/29/2016 12:33:36 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/29/2016 12:17:54 AM, someloser wrote:
Yes. More importantly, transparent peer review is a must.

Would this harm researchers though? Since they no longer get income from paywalls
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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5/29/2016 12:40:32 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/29/2016 12:33:36 AM, Hayd wrote:
At 5/29/2016 12:17:54 AM, someloser wrote:
Yes. More importantly, transparent peer review is a must.

Would this harm researchers though? Since they no longer get income from paywalls

Doubt it would, to a significant degree. It would be preferable for private donations or government funds to pay them anyhow.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Hayd
Posts: 4,022
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5/29/2016 2:52:45 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/29/2016 12:40:32 AM, someloser wrote:
At 5/29/2016 12:33:36 AM, Hayd wrote:
At 5/29/2016 12:17:54 AM, someloser wrote:
Yes. More importantly, transparent peer review is a must.

Would this harm researchers though? Since they no longer get income from paywalls

Doubt it would, to a significant degree. It would be preferable for private donations or government funds to pay them anyhow.

I've read that private donations and government funds don't pay nearly enough even added with the paywall though. Researchers shouldn't be getting private donations too, because then they are pressured to come about with an "astounding" result.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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5/29/2016 2:55:12 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/28/2016 11:40:21 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 5/28/2016 11:30:45 PM, Hayd wrote:
A European Union member claimed that access to all scientific papers will be free by 2020
http://www.sciencemag.org...

My intuition tells me I am for it, for it basically eliminates the middle man companies like JSTOR. I'm curious how important the paywalls are for the researchers, and if eliminating them would impact the scientists. Although, having unlimited access to all scientific papers will be a net benefit to people like me. Interesting regardless

The government ought to run a JSTOR-esque site. It would make everything work so much better.

+1
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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5/29/2016 2:57:47 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
Open access only harms the big publishing companies that earn bigger margins than Apple.

Open access is the future... look at what happened to Lingua :)
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
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5/29/2016 3:54:06 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/29/2016 12:04:10 AM, Hayd wrote:
At 5/28/2016 11:40:21 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 5/28/2016 11:30:45 PM, Hayd wrote:
A European Union member claimed that access to all scientific papers will be free by 2020
http://www.sciencemag.org...

My intuition tells me I am for it, for it basically eliminates the middle man companies like JSTOR. I'm curious how important the paywalls are for the researchers, and if eliminating them would impact the scientists. Although, having unlimited access to all scientific papers will be a net benefit to people like me. Interesting regardless

The government ought to run a JSTOR-esque site. It would make everything work so much better.

Yeah, but free stuff :(

You don't deserve anything for free.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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5/29/2016 4:01:52 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/29/2016 3:54:06 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 5/29/2016 12:04:10 AM, Hayd wrote:
At 5/28/2016 11:40:21 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 5/28/2016 11:30:45 PM, Hayd wrote:
A European Union member claimed that access to all scientific papers will be free by 2020
http://www.sciencemag.org...

My intuition tells me I am for it, for it basically eliminates the middle man companies like JSTOR. I'm curious how important the paywalls are for the researchers, and if eliminating them would impact the scientists. Although, having unlimited access to all scientific papers will be a net benefit to people like me. Interesting regardless

The government ought to run a JSTOR-esque site. It would make everything work so much better.

Yeah, but free stuff :(

You don't deserve anything for free.

The problem is that in the current oligopoly, researchers are charged ridiculously high prices to publish and readers are charged ridiculously high prices to read, so high that some universities can no longer afford subscriptions. Companies like Elsevier and T&F win; everyone else loses. With open access, the accessibility of research increases, which will stimulate development in the sciences; at the same time, researchers can boost their citation rates and impact factor. Only the big publishers lose.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
Hayd
Posts: 4,022
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5/29/2016 3:48:15 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/29/2016 3:54:06 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 5/29/2016 12:04:10 AM, Hayd wrote:
At 5/28/2016 11:40:21 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 5/28/2016 11:30:45 PM, Hayd wrote:
A European Union member claimed that access to all scientific papers will be free by 2020
http://www.sciencemag.org...

My intuition tells me I am for it, for it basically eliminates the middle man companies like JSTOR. I'm curious how important the paywalls are for the researchers, and if eliminating them would impact the scientists. Although, having unlimited access to all scientific papers will be a net benefit to people like me. Interesting regardless

The government ought to run a JSTOR-esque site. It would make everything work so much better.

Yeah, but free stuff :(

You don't deserve anything for free.

I never said I deserve it. I'm saying that the good outweighs the bad in making it free, thus we *ought* to make it free. I don't think anyone is arguing that we deserve to have it free, although one could certainly make that case
bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
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5/29/2016 5:31:38 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/29/2016 4:01:52 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 5/29/2016 3:54:06 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 5/29/2016 12:04:10 AM, Hayd wrote:
At 5/28/2016 11:40:21 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 5/28/2016 11:30:45 PM, Hayd wrote:
A European Union member claimed that access to all scientific papers will be free by 2020
http://www.sciencemag.org...

My intuition tells me I am for it, for it basically eliminates the middle man companies like JSTOR. I'm curious how important the paywalls are for the researchers, and if eliminating them would impact the scientists. Although, having unlimited access to all scientific papers will be a net benefit to people like me. Interesting regardless

The government ought to run a JSTOR-esque site. It would make everything work so much better.

Yeah, but free stuff :(

You don't deserve anything for free.

The problem is that in the current oligopoly, researchers are charged ridiculously high prices to publish and readers are charged ridiculously high prices to read, so high that some universities can no longer afford subscriptions. Companies like Elsevier and T&F win; everyone else loses. With open access, the accessibility of research increases, which will stimulate development in the sciences; at the same time, researchers can boost their citation rates and impact factor. Only the big publishers lose.

I can't support an idea that will detriment one company for the gain of some other. Most researchers that do not have the funds to pay for the research happen to be in college, which is not going to be a place for great scientific development. Most companies that have teams researching for them will provide sufficient funds for the research papers, so it should be perfectly fine.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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5/29/2016 6:14:53 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/29/2016 5:31:38 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 5/29/2016 4:01:52 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 5/29/2016 3:54:06 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 5/29/2016 12:04:10 AM, Hayd wrote:
At 5/28/2016 11:40:21 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 5/28/2016 11:30:45 PM, Hayd wrote:
A European Union member claimed that access to all scientific papers will be free by 2020
http://www.sciencemag.org...

My intuition tells me I am for it, for it basically eliminates the middle man companies like JSTOR. I'm curious how important the paywalls are for the researchers, and if eliminating them would impact the scientists. Although, having unlimited access to all scientific papers will be a net benefit to people like me. Interesting regardless

The government ought to run a JSTOR-esque site. It would make everything work so much better.

Yeah, but free stuff :(

You don't deserve anything for free.

The problem is that in the current oligopoly, researchers are charged ridiculously high prices to publish and readers are charged ridiculously high prices to read, so high that some universities can no longer afford subscriptions. Companies like Elsevier and T&F win; everyone else loses. With open access, the accessibility of research increases, which will stimulate development in the sciences; at the same time, researchers can boost their citation rates and impact factor. Only the big publishers lose.

I can't support an idea that will detriment one company for the gain of some other.
I understand you're a libertarian and support the Chicago school, so I don't think we'll be able to find agreement here, but I think it's a pretty clear-cut case of market failure that desperately needs a solution. Researchers pay to get their article published in a journal, doing all the work (incl. typesetting and all) themselves, and their works are edited and reviewed by peers who are also doing it for free. Then the publishers publish the work and charge lofty prices for people to read the articles. An analogy made about it is this: The publishers open a restaurant where they recruit volunteers to bring their own ingredients to cook. Then the customers are charged ridiculously high prices to eat the food they cook. It's been shown repeatedly that open access is the solution, and IMHO the problem now isn't whether we should encourage it, but how.

Open access does seem to be gaining a lot of ground in the absence of government support, at least in some fields. In linguistics, Lingua's editorial board collectively resigned and started a new journal, Glossa, and also urged other researchers not to submit to Lingua. But I'm not sure how many fields and researchers will be willing to make such a risky move.
Most researchers that do not have the funds to pay for the research happen to be in college, which is not going to be a place for great scientific development. Most companies that have teams researching for them will provide sufficient funds for the research papers, so it should be perfectly fine.
I would have to dispute that. We're already having a problem with portions of academic publishing serving corporate interests rather than humanity. There was a long article I read a while back that went into detail about the shortcomings of modern scientific publishing. I don't have the link to it - I tried to search for it, but in vain - but there was a story of researchers who exposed the side effects of a vaccine (or maybe it was a drug), but had to spend years getting the paper published. Meanwhile, the irreproducibility of medical studies remains bad.

Human lives are put at stake when bad medical studies are published... I think research done in academia, funded by taxpayers, can at least be expected to be less biased and based on monetary interests than their corporate counterparts.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...