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Should Confederates be honored?

tajshar2k
Posts: 2,384
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5/31/2016 2:48:20 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Since Memorial Day is an American holiday, and Confederates wanted to separate from America, should they be honored?
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,074
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5/31/2016 3:07:52 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
They fought and died for something that they believed in, and the vast majority of confederate soldiers never owned a slave. The slave-owning elites may have manipulated the whole thing, but most soldiers were simply loyal to their States over the Federal government. They may've been pro-slavery because they saw abolitionism as a northern attack on the south, but not necessarily because they liked the institution. That is, they hopped on the pro-slavery bandwagon because they saw doing so as being loyal to the south. The Civil War was about slavery, but to many participant soldiers it was just a battle between the north and the south.
So yes, they should be honoured like union soldiers are.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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tajshar2k
Posts: 2,384
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5/31/2016 3:14:38 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 3:07:52 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
They fought and died for something that they believed in, and the vast majority of confederate soldiers never owned a slave. The slave-owning elites may have manipulated the whole thing, but most soldiers were simply loyal to their States over the Federal government. They may've been pro-slavery because they saw abolitionism as a northern attack on the south, but not necessarily because they liked the institution. That is, they hopped on the pro-slavery bandwagon because they saw doing so as being loyal to the south. The Civil War was about slavery, but to many participant soldiers it was just a battle between the north and the south.
So yes, they should be honoured like union soldiers are.

We could say that about many of our enemies then. We fought the Germans, but many of them weren't Nazis.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,074
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5/31/2016 3:17:30 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 3:14:38 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 5/31/2016 3:07:52 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
They fought and died for something that they believed in, and the vast majority of confederate soldiers never owned a slave. The slave-owning elites may have manipulated the whole thing, but most soldiers were simply loyal to their States over the Federal government. They may've been pro-slavery because they saw abolitionism as a northern attack on the south, but not necessarily because they liked the institution. That is, they hopped on the pro-slavery bandwagon because they saw doing so as being loyal to the south. The Civil War was about slavery, but to many participant soldiers it was just a battle between the north and the south.
So yes, they should be honoured like union soldiers are.

We could say that about many of our enemies then. We fought the Germans, but many of them weren't Nazis.

Yes, German soldiers of WW2 who did not participate in war crimes should be honoured as well, even if they were fighting for an awful cause.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
simplelife
Posts: 134
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5/31/2016 6:53:19 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 2:48:20 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Since Memorial Day is an American holiday, and Confederates wanted to separate from America, should they be honored? : :

The Confederates weren't trying to separate themselves from their country. They were trying to keep their slaves according to the U.S. Constitution which protected their rights as citizens of the U.S. They had legal rights to own slaves.
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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5/31/2016 9:22:52 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 6:53:19 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 5/31/2016 2:48:20 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Since Memorial Day is an American holiday, and Confederates wanted to separate from America, should they be honored? : :

The Confederates weren't trying to separate themselves from their country. They were trying to keep their slaves according to the U.S. Constitution which protected their rights as citizens of the U.S. They had legal rights to own slaves.
They were doing both
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
simplelife
Posts: 134
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5/31/2016 9:41:44 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 9:22:52 PM, someloser wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:53:19 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 5/31/2016 2:48:20 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Since Memorial Day is an American holiday, and Confederates wanted to separate from America, should they be honored? : :

The Confederates weren't trying to separate themselves from their country. They were trying to keep their slaves according to the U.S. Constitution which protected their rights as citizens of the U.S. They had legal rights to own slaves.
They were doing both : :

The country is the land they were standing on. They wanted to keep their land with the slaves they owned. Do you love to argue just for the sake of arguing or are you here to learn something new?
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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5/31/2016 9:53:05 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 9:41:44 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 5/31/2016 9:22:52 PM, someloser wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:53:19 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 5/31/2016 2:48:20 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Since Memorial Day is an American holiday, and Confederates wanted to separate from America, should they be honored? : :

The Confederates weren't trying to separate themselves from their country. They were trying to keep their slaves according to the U.S. Constitution which protected their rights as citizens of the U.S. They had legal rights to own slaves.
They were doing both : :

The country is the land they were standing on.
No, the country, as in the territories held by the government of the US.

Country != terrain.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
simplelife
Posts: 134
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5/31/2016 10:09:34 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 9:53:05 PM, someloser wrote:
At 5/31/2016 9:41:44 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 5/31/2016 9:22:52 PM, someloser wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:53:19 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 5/31/2016 2:48:20 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Since Memorial Day is an American holiday, and Confederates wanted to separate from America, should they be honored? : :

The Confederates weren't trying to separate themselves from their country. They were trying to keep their slaves according to the U.S. Constitution which protected their rights as citizens of the U.S. They had legal rights to own slaves.
They were doing both : :

The country is the land they were standing on.
No, the country, as in the territories held by the government of the US.

Country != terrain. : :

The country is the land ( territory ruled by the government of the U.S. ) they were standing on. The country is the terrain that the Confederates were standing on and wanted to keep with all their slaves who worked on the terrain.
Fly
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5/31/2016 10:16:25 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 2:48:20 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Since Memorial Day is an American holiday, and Confederates wanted to separate from America, should they be honored?

No. Memorial Day is to memorialize those who fought for or with the USA, not against it.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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5/31/2016 10:17:17 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 10:09:34 PM, simplelife wrote:
The country is the land ( territory ruled by the government of the U.S. ) they were standing on.
... as defined by the fact that it is held by the government. Hence why secession was attempted. It's an issue of sovereignty, not geography.

The country is the terrain that the Confederates were standing on and wanted to keep with all their slaves who worked on the terrain.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
simplelife
Posts: 134
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5/31/2016 10:37:02 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 10:17:17 PM, someloser wrote:
At 5/31/2016 10:09:34 PM, simplelife wrote:
The country is the land ( territory ruled by the government of the U.S. ) they were standing on.
... as defined by the fact that it is held by the government. Hence why secession was attempted. It's an issue of sovereignty, not geography.

No land is held by the government. The land that the Confederates were standing on was stolen from the native Americans by the Europeans who left Great Britain and other European countries. These land-grabbers who stole the land they were standing on fought Great Britain's claim that they were in control of it. The British army came to the land that the former Europeans were standing on and tried to maintain control which didn't happen. The former Europeans who stole the land from the native Americans fought hard and won their battles against the British armies. Then these former Europeans drew up laws of the land called the U.S. Constitution in which is was perfectly acceptable to own slaves from Africa.

Eventually, a few Europeans begin feeling bad about other Europeans owning African slaves so they began to fight against the U.S. citizens who owned slaves. This led to the separation ( Mason-Dixon ) line between the northern states where most U.S. citizens were against slavery and the southern states that wanted to keep their slaves.

The Confederates were living on the land south of the Mason-Dixon line that was still ruled by the U.S. Constitution at the time. The Confederates were like the former Europeans who fought against the British armies sent by the government of Great Britain who thought they could rule over them. The Confederates fought hard to separate themselves from the Union Yankees but the Union Yankees finally won their battles against the Confederates. This means nothing changed from the U.S. Constitution except the additional rule that Africans living in the U.S. could live freely without being in bondage to slave-masters. However, many of the slaves remained on the land of their owners and kept working as slaves because they didn't have any other skills to make it on their own. Some of them bought their own land and began farming.

There's the story of how the Union Yankees were able to stop slavery in the U.S. and add the new law to the U.S. Constitution. The Confederates remained land owners after the Civil war but they couldn't buy and sell African slaves anymore. The slaves who remained on the land south of the Mason-Dixon line were free to leave anytime they wanted to along with any land that was controlled by the U.S. Constitution.

The country is the terrain that the Confederates were standing on and wanted to keep with all their slaves who worked on the terrain. : :
bhakun
Posts: 231
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6/1/2016 3:38:27 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 2:48:20 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Since Memorial Day is an American holiday, and Confederates wanted to separate from America, should they be honored?

The Confederates were traitors that fought for slavery under the guise of nationalism. General Lee was as racist as they come. They instigated the bloodiest war in American history. They dont deserve to be honored.
"We must rapidly begin the shift from a "thing-oriented" society to a "person-oriented" society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered." -MLK Jr
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,285
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6/1/2016 9:01:17 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 2:48:20 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Since Memorial Day is an American holiday, and Confederates wanted to separate from America, should they be honored?

Yes. People were more loyal to their states back then; it meant more to many people than the federal government ever did.

If anyone has read A Song of Ice and Fire, there's a great scene were Ser Axell is ranting about how treason must be punished, and Davos, a man of common birth, reminds him that people have multiple loyalties, and that to keep faith with one sometimes means betraying others. That treason is often a matter of perspective, and not an indictment of character.

"Davos turned to face Ser Axell. 'You say we ought show the realm we are not done. Strike a blow. Make war, aye... but on what enemy? You will find no Lannisters on Claw Isle.'

'We will find traitors,' said Ser Axell, 'though it may be I could find some closer to home. Even in this very room.'

Davos ignored the jibe. 'I don't doubt Lord Celtigar bent the knee to the boy Joffrey. He is an old done man, who wants no more than to end his days in his castle, drinking his fine wine out of his jeweled cups.' He turned back to Stannis. 'Yet he came when you called, sire. Came, with his ships and swords. He stood by you at Storm's End when Lord Renly came down on us, and his ships sailed up the Blackwater. His men fought for you, killed for you, burned for you. Claw Isle is weakly held, yes. Held by women and children and old men. And why is that? Because their husbands and sons and fathers died on the Blackwater, that's why. Died at their oars, or with swords in their hands, fighting beneath our banners. Yet Ser Axell proposes we swoop down on the homes they left behind, to rape their widows and put their children to the sword. These smallfolk are no traitors...'

'They are,' insisted Ser Axell. 'Not all of Celtigar's men were slain on the Blackwater. Hundreds were taken with their lord, and bent the knee when he did.'

'When he did,' Davos repeated. 'They were his men. His sworn men. What choice were they given?'

'Every man has choices. They might have refused to kneel. Some did, and died for it. Yet they died true men, and loyal.'

'Some men are stronger than others.' It was a feeble answer, and Davos knew it. Stannis Baratheon was a man of iron will who neither understood nor forgave weakness in others. I am losing, he thought, despairing.

'It is every man's duty to remain loyal to his rightful king, even if the lord he serves proves false,' Stannis declared in a tone that brooked no argument.

A desperate folly took hold of Davos, a recklessness akin to madness. 'As you remained loyal to King Aerys when your brother raised his banners?' he blurted."
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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6/1/2016 1:39:23 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 6:53:19 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 5/31/2016 2:48:20 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Since Memorial Day is an American holiday, and Confederates wanted to separate from America, should they be honored? : :

The Confederates weren't trying to separate themselves from their country. They were trying to keep their slaves according to the U.S. Constitution which protected their rights as citizens of the U.S. They had legal rights to own slaves.

Since they had no interest in the Constitution of the United States of America, they were following this one

https://en.wikipedia.org...
simplelife
Posts: 134
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6/1/2016 2:24:50 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/1/2016 1:39:23 PM, TBR wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:53:19 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 5/31/2016 2:48:20 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Since Memorial Day is an American holiday, and Confederates wanted to separate from America, should they be honored? : :

The Confederates weren't trying to separate themselves from their country. They were trying to keep their slaves according to the U.S. Constitution which protected their rights as citizens of the U.S. They had legal rights to own slaves.

Since they had no interest in the Constitution of the United States of America, they were following this one

https://en.wikipedia.org... : :

Does anyone have an interest in the Constitution of the U.S.? Our current U.S. President sure doesn't.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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6/1/2016 2:34:00 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/1/2016 2:24:50 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 6/1/2016 1:39:23 PM, TBR wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:53:19 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 5/31/2016 2:48:20 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Since Memorial Day is an American holiday, and Confederates wanted to separate from America, should they be honored? : :

The Confederates weren't trying to separate themselves from their country. They were trying to keep their slaves according to the U.S. Constitution which protected their rights as citizens of the U.S. They had legal rights to own slaves.

Since they had no interest in the Constitution of the United States of America, they were following this one

https://en.wikipedia.org... : :

Does anyone have an interest in the Constitution of the U.S.? Our current U.S. President sure doesn't.

So you say, however, your comment is simple deflection from the point.
simplelife
Posts: 134
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6/2/2016 3:13:05 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/1/2016 2:34:00 PM, TBR wrote:
At 6/1/2016 2:24:50 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 6/1/2016 1:39:23 PM, TBR wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:53:19 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 5/31/2016 2:48:20 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Since Memorial Day is an American holiday, and Confederates wanted to separate from America, should they be honored? : :

The Confederates weren't trying to separate themselves from their country. They were trying to keep their slaves according to the U.S. Constitution which protected their rights as citizens of the U.S. They had legal rights to own slaves.

Since they had no interest in the Constitution of the United States of America, they were following this one

https://en.wikipedia.org... : :

Does anyone have an interest in the Constitution of the U.S.? Our current U.S. President sure doesn't.

So you say, however, your comment is simple deflection from the point. : :

I'm sure there were plenty of U.S. citizens who wanted to change the U.S. Constitution right after they learned what it was about. Particularly the rich who love to control others. They eventually got the U.S. citizens split up into groups because of their "party spirit" in their minds. Once they were divided against each other, the rich were able to get private banks and corporation laws in their favor. So it wasn't only the Confederates who wanted it their way.
Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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6/6/2016 12:19:34 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 3:14:38 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 5/31/2016 3:07:52 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
They fought and died for something that they believed in, and the vast majority of confederate soldiers never owned a slave. The slave-owning elites may have manipulated the whole thing, but most soldiers were simply loyal to their States over the Federal government. They may've been pro-slavery because they saw abolitionism as a northern attack on the south, but not necessarily because they liked the institution. That is, they hopped on the pro-slavery bandwagon because they saw doing so as being loyal to the south. The Civil War was about slavery, but to many participant soldiers it was just a battle between the north and the south.
So yes, they should be honoured like union soldiers are.

We could say that about many of our enemies then. We fought the Germans, but many of them weren't Nazis.

I like this point.
Meh!
Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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6/7/2016 12:27:14 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/1/2016 2:34:00 PM, TBR wrote:
At 6/1/2016 2:24:50 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 6/1/2016 1:39:23 PM, TBR wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:53:19 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 5/31/2016 2:48:20 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Since Memorial Day is an American holiday, and Confederates wanted to separate from America, should they be honored? : :

The Confederates weren't trying to separate themselves from their country. They were trying to keep their slaves according to the U.S. Constitution which protected their rights as citizens of the U.S. They had legal rights to own slaves.

Since they had no interest in the Constitution of the United States of America, they were following this one

https://en.wikipedia.org... : :

Does anyone have an interest in the Constitution of the U.S.? Our current U.S. President sure doesn't.

So you say, however, your comment is simple deflection from the point.

Lol xD
Meh!
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,291
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6/7/2016 3:22:16 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 12:27:14 PM, Axonly wrote:
At 6/1/2016 2:34:00 PM, TBR wrote:
At 6/1/2016 2:24:50 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 6/1/2016 1:39:23 PM, TBR wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:53:19 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 5/31/2016 2:48:20 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Since Memorial Day is an American holiday, and Confederates wanted to separate from America, should they be honored? : :

The Confederates weren't trying to separate themselves from their country. They were trying to keep their slaves according to the U.S. Constitution which protected their rights as citizens of the U.S. They had legal rights to own slaves.

Since they had no interest in the Constitution of the United States of America, they were following this one

https://en.wikipedia.org... : :

Does anyone have an interest in the Constitution of the U.S.? Our current U.S. President sure doesn't.

So you say, however, your comment is simple deflection from the point.

Lol xD
Thanks for the bumpspam, troll.
JurassinJohn
Posts: 29
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6/8/2016 5:54:05 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
The Confederate soldiers were enemies of the Union and fought for right to preserve slavery but they should still not be forgotten and dismissed off as a bunch of racist. They were human beings who have long been laid to rest and all of them were part of the war for different reasons.