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On Trump #1: Checks and Balances

bsh1
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6/3/2016 4:57:37 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
Intro

This is going to be part of a series of 4 posts on Donald Trump, GOP nominee for US President. The other three will be: Temperament, Policy + Governance, and Violence + Race-Baiting. These posts are not about Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders, and I would ask that you confine the discussion to Trump himself (I don't want to compare the candidates in this thread). I would also ask that--as I realize this is a controversial topic--we stay polite and considerate throughout the dialogue.

For the record, and so my personal biases are stated, I am a #NeverTrump supporter. I will either vote Clinton, Johnson, or Stein in the upcoming race, though I am as yet undecided about what I will do. I voted for Bernie in the primaries.

This thread will be about my concerns regarding the effect Trump may have or try to bring about on our nation's checks and balances, including both formal checks and balances (enshrined in our Constitution) and our informal checks and balances (civil society and the media). Some of the content of this post will interconnect with content of future posts, but I had to start somewhere. So, if I say, "see next post," I am referring you to something I will say or have said elsewhere that is germane to the conversation.

The Free Press

Freedom of the press is perhaps one of the most vital and important freedoms in our democracy. Media institutions which challenge prevailing narratives and scrutinize governments do society and immense service by fostering a marketplace of ideas, in which various narratives are on sale, and consumers can assess each one before making a purchase. When only one narrative is for sale, whether or not it is the most truthful or the best, only that narrative can be bought. This is why countries like North Korea aggressively stamp out media not controlled by the state. As long as people only hear what the party wants them to hear, it is hard for them to question the party; it is a form of indoctrination and oppression. It is also why our founding fathers enshrined this right in the Bill of Rights.

As I see it, remarks Trump has made on the campaign trail have shown his ill-regard, and perhaps contempt, for the free press when that free press decides to scrutinize him. Certainly, all politicians love to complain about the biased media, but I want to separate attacking the "media" in general from harassing or attacking specific reporters for legitimate questions.

I'm sure we all remember the Megyn Kelly fracas. In a debate, Megyn Kelly asked Trump several questions he found offensive or, in his words, "unfair." She cited a variety of derogatory remarks Trump had made about women, and then asked: "Does that sound to you like the temperament of a man we should elect as president, and how will you answer the charge from Hillary Clinton, who was likely to be the Democratic nominee, that you are part of the war on women?" [1] This question was fair--examining the record and temperament of a candidate based on things that were provably said by the candidate is entirely legitimate. Candidates should expect to answer for their past dealings because people have the right to consider whether their past is their prologue.

By way of reply to her question, Trump made the following comment: "you could see there was blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her wherever." [2] I think we all know what this is referring to, lame excuses aside. Trump also retweeted harassing comments about her which called her, among other things, a "bimbo." [3] Thousands of his supporters made like comments on her social media profiles. [4] Trump also refused to attend a subsequent Presidential debate because she was taking part.

More recently, journalists quizzed him about the donations he had (not) made to Veterans Groups, and why his personal check was months late in being written. These are legitimate questions as well. Even if you believe these legitimate questions have legitimate answers, that does not somehow make the questions less legitimate to ask. Certainly, voters have a right to know why the money releases were delayed, even if a good reason exists for that delay.

Rather than respond to these legitimate questions, Trump chose, in his unerringly crass style, to call one reporter a "sleaze" and to offer snide comments throughout his press conference. [5] Another journalist who profiled his wife in a GQ article "received a torrent of antisemitic, vitriolic and threatening messages from supporters of the Republican frontrunner." [6] Trump knowingly fans the flames of his koolaid-drinking hoards through strategic retweets and other, subtle "Wink and Nod" signals.

Trump has also seen fit to mock disabled reporters and, frankly, to lambaste any person with the gall to scrutinize him. [7] Trump has sued for libel (for spurious reasons) in the past, and has argued that libel laws should be opened up to make it easier to sue journalists and reporters for their work. [1, 6]

I can cite a litany of other examples, including these: "In recent weeks, Trump has called for investigating Washington Post owner Jeff Bezos--who he claims has been 'getting away with murder, tax-wise' and has a 'huge antitrust problem'--because of the Post's critical coverage of his campaign. Trump's close ally, Roger Stone, has said that, 'when Donald Trump is president, he should turn off' CNN's 'FCC license.' Trump has repeatedly called the journalists who cover him 'scum' and barred news organizations that cover him critically from attending his public events." [8]

I have three, very big concerns, in respect to this. Firstly, if reporters do not feel safe criticizing Trump, they may self-censor, not writing critical stories that they otherwise may have authored. Secondly, I worry about Trump winning high office and then using that office's authority to attempt to retaliate against reporters or news agencies in a way that is relatively unprecedented. It is not, given Trump's proclivity towards lashing out at those he dislikes, outside of reality to suggest he may use law enforcement agencies to start bogus investigations of those he dislikes, or using his clout to blackball reporters or to deny reporters critical of him access to White House briefings and functions so that they cannot report on him effectively. He may be more reticent to respond to FOIA requests, and I think he will certainly try to open up libel laws so that he can--at the very least--persecute journalist through civil prosecutions. Finally, I buy that his attacks on the media and on certain, often very good reporters will serve to discredit them in the public eye (at least within some crowds), making it harder for those news outlets or those journalists to have their voices be heard. This could exacerbate existing polarization and could suppress information or viewpoints that the public ought to be hearing.

Respect for the Judiciary

Needless to say, having an independently functioning judiciary is absolutely vital to a functioning democracy. Only courts, separated from the other branches, can hold any abuses of those other branches to account. Courts under the sway of the other branches may not fairly judge opponents of the government or those who question the validity of various government actions. So, clearly, an independent judiciary is crucial.

Trump's most recent tirade against Judge Curiel (overseeing the Trump University Case) gives me pause when I consider whether Trump, as President, would respect fully the separation of powers between the branches. Not only did Trump use language that boarders closely on racism (saying that Judge Curiel was "inherently" biased because he was Mexican, as if it were genetically impossible for a Mexican-American jurist to treat Trump fairly), but he also made some other disquieting remarks. [9]

(cont'd below)
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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bsh1
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6/3/2016 4:57:55 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
(cont'd from above)

Trump did not merely attack Judge Curiel's integrity. Trump did not merely attack the Judicial System. Trump did both of these things, and he suggested that Judge Curiel should be punished/investigated for treating him unfairly, saying: "they ought to look into Judge Curiel." Consider this: "Were Trump president, he'd have other methods of intimidation at his disposal. Instead of merely suggesting that, 'they ought to look into Judge Curiel,' he could order his Justice Department to do it." [8] There is also a notable risk that judges, like journalists, could be targets of hate mail and threats which serve to intimidate them or make their jobs more difficult.

Here again I have concerns: (a) if Trump convinces people that the judicial system is "rigged," it will strengthen Trump's position in any possible crusade against Judicial independence; (b) Trump's egging on of his supporters could lead to judicial intimidation or dysfunction, or lead to judges feeling pressured to act in a particular way; and (c) Trump could use legal mechanisms to target judges who put up obstacles to his activities.

The Legislature

I worry also that Trump and Congress may butt heads frequently and violently. Under Obama, many conservative critics have charged that he has, in some cases, ruled by decree through executive order. Obama, for his part, claims his actions were necessary because Congress refused to act.

It is easy to imagine a scenario wherein the next Congress is just as anti-Trump as this current Congress is anti-Obama. Whether it is moderate Republicans who balk at Trump's rhetoric or Democrats who utterly oppose many of his key policies, it is hard to imagine that Trump could steamroll, say, his Muslim ban through the body. It is also easy, given Trump's predilection for temper tantrums and fits of pique, to imagine him going farther than Obama did when Obama got stonewalled. Trump, if he doesn't get his way, may become the "Executive Order" president. Trump may resort to strong-arming Congress in ways that have previously been off-limits, threatening Congressional leadership, or personally targeting legislators that stand in his way. For example, Trump commented that "I don't know [Paul Ryan] well, but I'm sure I am going to get along great with him. And, if I don't, he's going to have to pay a big price, okay? Okay." [10] His statements lead to legitimate concerns about how precisely Trump would interact with the legislature.

Trump's Rhetoric

I am just going to quote Hillary here. Again, this thread is not about her, so I am not interested in discussing her campaign. But, insofar as the content of the quoted remarks deals with Trump, I would like to discuss that. So, here we go: "And I have to say, I don't understand Donald's bizarre fascination with dictators and strongmen who have no love for America. He praised China for the Tiananmen Square massacre; he said it showed strength. He said, 'You've got to give Kim Jong Un credit' for taking over North Korea--something he did by murdering everyone he saw as a threat, including his own uncle, which Donald described gleefully, like he was recapping an action movie. And he said if he were grading Vladimir Putin as a leader, he"d give him an A." [11]

This tyrant-loving guy, who subtly race-baits and who encourage violence at his rallies, is supposed to somehow be a lover of democracy and democratic institutions? IDK about that.

In Conclusion (TL;DR)

I think that Trump will weaken democratic institutions essential for maintaining an effective regime of checks and balances. He will viciously and wantonly target those he perceives to be against him in ways that defy all norms. He will likely pursue legal methods to undermine the strength of the free press and the judiciary, and to bypass Congress. He is a admirer of authoritarians, and, to admire them as leaders, he must also admire their methods. And he will likely try to leverage the powers of the office to make it more difficult for him to be challenged; he will exceed the bounds that modern President have kept themselves within, and, in doing so, he will challenge the health of our democratic society.

Many will conclude that his remarks are merely campaign bluster. But their reaches a point where we simply have to stop dismissing his comments as things "just" said on a campaign and start taking him at his word. After all, his words and his actions are all we have to judge him by. If we pretend it is all fun and games for now, we may come to have severe buyers' remorse later.

Now, I am not arguing that Trump will try to seize power for himself...nothing so dramatic. But he does represent a corosive force that may erode the array of checks and balances our society uses to preserve our democracy. This erosion, particularly if it continues beyond Trump, may make it easier for a future leader or demagogue to take power, to harm our rights and democracy norms, or to degrade our nation's governing capacity. As one article put it: "It's unlikely that Trump would strip Americans of the right to elect their leaders. It's more likely that he'd undermine those institutions that restrain the power of the leaders Americans elect. He'd undermine the institutions that limit presidential power and safeguard individual rights and equality under the law." [8]

Sources

1 - https://www.washingtonpost.com...
2 - http://www.cnn.com...
3 - https://www.youtube.com...
4 - http://bipartisanreport.com...
5 - http://money.cnn.com...
6 - http://www.theguardian.com...
7 - http://www.bbc.com...
8 - http://www.theatlantic.com...
9 - http://www.vox.com...
10 - New Republic, "Trump the Disruptor," May 2016
11 - http://crooksandliars.com...

=========

So, that's my post on this topic. Please feel free to contribute your thoughts, comments, and reactions.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Skepsikyma
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6/3/2016 5:11:22 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 4:57:55 AM, bsh1 wrote:
This tyrant-loving guy, who subtly race-baits and who encourage violence at his rallies

Lol, impeccable timing.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
bsh1
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6/3/2016 5:12:01 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:11:22 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/3/2016 4:57:55 AM, bsh1 wrote:
This tyrant-loving guy, who subtly race-baits and who encourage violence at his rallies

Lol, impeccable timing.

???
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
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thett3
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6/3/2016 5:12:07 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 4:57:55 AM, bsh1 wrote:

This tyrant-loving guy, who subtly race-baits and who encourage violence at his rallies,

It is your side that promotes, encourages, and commits violence. Not ours.

It's amazing that you would write something like this given what is happening literally right now. Terrible timing.
DDO Vice President

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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6/3/2016 5:12:36 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:12:01 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:11:22 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/3/2016 4:57:55 AM, bsh1 wrote:
This tyrant-loving guy, who subtly race-baits and who encourage violence at his rallies

Lol, impeccable timing.

???

Dozens of Trump supporters were beaten by mobs in San Jose today.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Skepsikyma
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6/3/2016 5:14:26 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:12:01 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:11:22 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/3/2016 4:57:55 AM, bsh1 wrote:
This tyrant-loving guy, who subtly race-baits and who encourage violence at his rallies

Lol, impeccable timing.

???

Trump supporters were just mobbed at a rally in San Jose, several people were assaulted, one heavily bloodied. The news is still rolling in, but there are no instances of anti-Trump supporters being attacked.

Please, link me to an example of Trump supporters violently disrupting or attacking a Clinton or Bernie rally.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
bsh1
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6/3/2016 5:14:53 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:12:36 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:12:01 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:11:22 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/3/2016 4:57:55 AM, bsh1 wrote:
This tyrant-loving guy, who subtly race-baits and who encourage violence at his rallies

Lol, impeccable timing.

???

Dozens of Trump supporters were beaten by mobs in San Jose today.

Obviously I don't condone that, and I have been coming to regret my vote for Bernie because of what I see as his abject failure to work to reign in the violence.

Now, can we address the substance of the OP, which, you'll notice, is not about violence at rallies, but something wholly distinct.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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thett3
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6/3/2016 5:15:36 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
Clown World logic: Trump supporters are beaten by leftists mobs. It is Donald Trumps fault
DDO Vice President

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
bsh1
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6/3/2016 5:16:50 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:14:26 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

I will say to you what I said to Thett: can we address the substance of the OP, which, you'll notice, is not about violence at rallies, but something wholly distinct.

You're using an issue that is, IMO, entirely off-topic, to avoid addressing the issue I presented about checks and balances.

Obviously, I don't condone that violence. But that is simply not responsive to the main thrust of this OP. Did you even bother to read it?
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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6/3/2016 5:17:19 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:15:36 AM, thett3 wrote:
Clown World logic: Trump supporters are beaten by leftists mobs. It is Donald Trumps fault

Who said that?
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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6/3/2016 5:18:03 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT VIOLENCE AT RALLIES.

This thread is about checks and balances. Read the title of the thread. Read the actual OP people.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Skepsikyma
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6/3/2016 5:21:54 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:16:50 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:14:26 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

I will say to you what I said to Thett: can we address the substance of the OP, which, you'll notice, is not about violence at rallies, but something wholly distinct.

You're using an issue that is, IMO, entirely off-topic, to avoid addressing the issue I presented about checks and balances.

Obviously, I don't condone that violence. But that is simply not responsive to the main thrust of this OP. Did you even bother to read it?

It is on topic. You claim that Trump is a danger to media impartiality because he criticizes them vociferously, and then wax poetic about how the media is good because it supplies a marketplace ideas. But does it? Where did this idea, which you can't defend, that Trump is 'advocating violence' come from? From a repetitive media narrative in which you are immersed. There are severe structural problems with the news media in America. This isn't some crackpot criticism that Trump just came up with. Chomsky and Herman brilliantly limned the system's problems in Manufacturing Dissent, and Hitchens decried the 'false security of consensus. The media doesn't fill the role which you ascribe to it. It pushes several narrow narratives, and people largely self sort into echo chambers which reinforce their cultural biases. The system is worthy of criticism.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
thett3
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6/3/2016 5:22:36 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
http://www.debate.org...
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
1harderthanyouthink
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6/3/2016 5:23:58 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:14:53 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:12:36 AM, thett3 wrote:
Obviously I don't condone that, and I have been coming to regret my vote for Bernie because of what I see as his abject failure to work to reign in the violence.

The violence from the college students has nothing to do with who they support. Ultimately, they would protest Trump violently if they were Hillary supporters - and some of them are regardless.
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And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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thett3
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6/3/2016 5:26:05 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:21:54 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:16:50 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:14:26 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

I will say to you what I said to Thett: can we address the substance of the OP, which, you'll notice, is not about violence at rallies, but something wholly distinct.

You're using an issue that is, IMO, entirely off-topic, to avoid addressing the issue I presented about checks and balances.

Obviously, I don't condone that violence. But that is simply not responsive to the main thrust of this OP. Did you even bother to read it?

It is on topic. You claim that Trump is a danger to media impartiality because he criticizes them vociferously, and then wax poetic about how the media is good because it supplies a marketplace ideas. But does it? Where did this idea, which you can't defend, that Trump is 'advocating violence' come from? From a repetitive media narrative in which you are immersed. There are severe structural problems with the news media in America. This isn't some crackpot criticism that Trump just came up with. Chomsky and Herman brilliantly limned the system's problems in Manufacturing Dissent, and Hitchens decried the 'false security of consensus. The media doesn't fill the role which you ascribe to it. It pushes several narrow narratives, and people largely self sort into echo chambers which reinforce their cultural biases. The system is worthy of criticism.

Yep, and when you add to that things like Facebook preventing conservative news outlets/stories from trending...it's really shocking just how manufactured the narrative that we're being fed. There are many ideas which would be considered radical at any other point in history that are now considered common knowledge by most of the population

When you do finally break out of the narrative it's like seeing an entirely different world. The good news is that people instinctively realize that they're being taken for a ride and trust in the media is at an all time low.

Like most of our institutions (including the institutions that constitute the long dead checks and balances Bsh talks about), the press has become hopelessly corrupt and self serving. There's something rotten in the state of America, and only Trump can fix it.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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6/3/2016 5:26:46 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:23:58 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:14:53 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:12:36 AM, thett3 wrote:
Obviously I don't condone that, and I have been coming to regret my vote for Bernie because of what I see as his abject failure to work to reign in the violence.

The violence from the college students has nothing to do with who they support. Ultimately, they would protest Trump violently if they were Hillary supporters - and some of them are regardless.

I like Bernie but you have to admit that he did basically victim blame Trump/his supporters
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
1harderthanyouthink
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6/3/2016 5:28:58 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:26:46 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:23:58 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:14:53 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:12:36 AM, thett3 wrote:
Obviously I don't condone that, and I have been coming to regret my vote for Bernie because of what I see as his abject failure to work to reign in the violence.

The violence from the college students has nothing to do with who they support. Ultimately, they would protest Trump violently if they were Hillary supporters - and some of them are regardless.

I like Bernie but you have to admit that he did basically victim blame Trump/his supporters

I haven't paid as much attention to him and Trump as him and the DNC. Either way, nobody is controlling anyone - not Trump, not Hillary, not Bernie.
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6/3/2016 5:29:40 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:21:54 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:16:50 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:14:26 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

I will say to you what I said to Thett: can we address the substance of the OP, which, you'll notice, is not about violence at rallies, but something wholly distinct.

You're using an issue that is, IMO, entirely off-topic, to avoid addressing the issue I presented about checks and balances.

Obviously, I don't condone that violence. But that is simply not responsive to the main thrust of this OP. Did you even bother to read it?

So, let's parse this a bit.

It is on topic. You claim that Trump is a danger to media impartiality because he criticizes them vociferously, and then wax poetic about how the media is good because it supplies a marketplace ideas. But does it? Where did this idea, which you can't defend, that Trump is 'advocating violence' come from?

I can defend it, and I will in a future post on this subject, where the discussion of violence at rallies will be more appropriate. Notice I promised to make a thread on "Violence" in this series. I merely choose not to defend it now, because I'd rather have a discussion of the OP, rather than this side-issue that you're trying to shoehorn into this thread.

The media does clearly challenge it, particularly Fox, and I understand the counterarguments. I simply reject those counterarguments. And, I can believe that Trump encourages violence while simultaneously believing that Bernie doesn't do enough to stop it. I think both are true, which shows a willingness on my part to critique both sides of the aisle, including the man I voted for.

The media doesn't fill the role which you ascribe to it.

It does. I am going to have to disagree. I don't think our news media does it as well as it could, but that does not mean it doesn't work at all. It fills a role in presenting a variety of viewpoints for the American public to analyze and evaluate. Any media market will be open to the objection that it doesn't display enough viewpoints, but I think our market meets the bare minimum. It probably does a bit better than the bare minimum, IMO. Sure, it could be less polarized and more diverse, but let's not abandon the good for the sake of the perfect here.
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6/3/2016 5:30:50 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:23:58 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:14:53 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:12:36 AM, thett3 wrote:
Obviously I don't condone that, and I have been coming to regret my vote for Bernie because of what I see as his abject failure to work to reign in the violence.

The violence from the college students has nothing to do with who they support. Ultimately, they would protest Trump violently if they were Hillary supporters - and some of them are regardless.

Let's be honest: the vast majority are Bernie supporters. Bernie's response to the violence has been woefully inadequate. He fears turning off those protestors who might vote for him in the crucial, upcoming primary.
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6/3/2016 5:32:33 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
I would still really appreciate someone engaging with the main points of my OP...
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6/3/2016 5:32:55 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:30:50 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:23:58 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:14:53 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:12:36 AM, thett3 wrote:
Obviously I don't condone that, and I have been coming to regret my vote for Bernie because of what I see as his abject failure to work to reign in the violence.

The violence from the college students has nothing to do with who they support. Ultimately, they would protest Trump violently if they were Hillary supporters - and some of them are regardless.

Let's be honest: the vast majority are Bernie supporters. Bernie's response to the violence has been woefully inadequate. He fears turning off those protestors who might vote for him in the crucial, upcoming primary.

I don't really care if he has fears of turning away supporters. I'll take that flaw over Hillary's 10 times out of 10.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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6/3/2016 5:34:53 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:32:55 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:30:50 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:23:58 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:14:53 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:12:36 AM, thett3 wrote:
Obviously I don't condone that, and I have been coming to regret my vote for Bernie because of what I see as his abject failure to work to reign in the violence.

The violence from the college students has nothing to do with who they support. Ultimately, they would protest Trump violently if they were Hillary supporters - and some of them are regardless.

Let's be honest: the vast majority are Bernie supporters. Bernie's response to the violence has been woefully inadequate. He fears turning off those protestors who might vote for him in the crucial, upcoming primary.

I don't really care if he has fears of turning away supporters. I'll take that flaw over Hillary's 10 times out of 10.

It's disgraceful that he would not speak out more forcefully (and take action to reduce) violence against peaceful rally-goers. That's absurd.
Live Long and Prosper

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6/3/2016 5:35:58 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:34:53 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:32:55 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:30:50 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:23:58 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:14:53 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:12:36 AM, thett3 wrote:
Obviously I don't condone that, and I have been coming to regret my vote for Bernie because of what I see as his abject failure to work to reign in the violence.

The violence from the college students has nothing to do with who they support. Ultimately, they would protest Trump violently if they were Hillary supporters - and some of them are regardless.

Let's be honest: the vast majority are Bernie supporters. Bernie's response to the violence has been woefully inadequate. He fears turning off those protestors who might vote for him in the crucial, upcoming primary.

I don't really care if he has fears of turning away supporters. I'll take that flaw over Hillary's 10 times out of 10.

It's disgraceful that he would not speak out more forcefully (and take action to reduce) violence against peaceful rally-goers. That's absurd.

Again, I don't care. You know what Trump says - his supporters are "passionate people".
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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6/3/2016 5:37:03 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:35:58 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:34:53 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:32:55 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:30:50 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:23:58 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:14:53 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:12:36 AM, thett3 wrote:
Obviously I don't condone that, and I have been coming to regret my vote for Bernie because of what I see as his abject failure to work to reign in the violence.

The violence from the college students has nothing to do with who they support. Ultimately, they would protest Trump violently if they were Hillary supporters - and some of them are regardless.

Let's be honest: the vast majority are Bernie supporters. Bernie's response to the violence has been woefully inadequate. He fears turning off those protestors who might vote for him in the crucial, upcoming primary.

I don't really care if he has fears of turning away supporters. I'll take that flaw over Hillary's 10 times out of 10.

It's disgraceful that he would not speak out more forcefully (and take action to reduce) violence against peaceful rally-goers. That's absurd.

Again, I don't care. You know what Trump says - his supporters are "passionate people".

Passion is not valid grounds for violence.

Look, this isn't what my OP is about. So I am just ending this here. I'd love it if you could engage with the OP.
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6/3/2016 5:38:15 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:37:03 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:35:58 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:34:53 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:32:55 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:30:50 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:23:58 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:14:53 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:12:36 AM, thett3 wrote:
Obviously I don't condone that, and I have been coming to regret my vote for Bernie because of what I see as his abject failure to work to reign in the violence.

The violence from the college students has nothing to do with who they support. Ultimately, they would protest Trump violently if they were Hillary supporters - and some of them are regardless.

Let's be honest: the vast majority are Bernie supporters. Bernie's response to the violence has been woefully inadequate. He fears turning off those protestors who might vote for him in the crucial, upcoming primary.

I don't really care if he has fears of turning away supporters. I'll take that flaw over Hillary's 10 times out of 10.

It's disgraceful that he would not speak out more forcefully (and take action to reduce) violence against peaceful rally-goers. That's absurd.

Again, I don't care. You know what Trump says - his supporters are "passionate people".

Passion is not valid grounds for violence.

Look, this isn't what my OP is about. So I am just ending this here. I'd love it if you could engage with the OP.

My point was that nobody would have condemned the violence. Picking Bernie from the bunch is stupid.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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thett3
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6/3/2016 5:38:51 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
Bsh, do you actually believe that our "democratic institutions" are even remotely functional? Have you not been paying any attention our entire lives?

That ship sailed long ago. The Supreme Court no longer conceals that it is not an objective arbiter of law, but rather a legislative body. The president rules by executive fiat, crushing regulations, and by selective enforcement of the law. Congress does little except act as an electoral punching bag for voter rage and to insert pork in bills to help their wealthy donors.

Trump isn't a threat to democracy, he's the shakeup needed to save this country. Hillary Clinton will continue to allow our system to rot and will get us into another war like Iraq. She will cause hundreds of thousands to needlessly die.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
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6/3/2016 5:39:48 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:38:15 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
My point was that nobody would have condemned the violence. Picking Bernie from the bunch is stupid.

So, because Trump doesn't do something, Bernie shouldn't. That is a disgracefully low bar to set. Bernie should be better than that.

Chris, I am really not interested in pursuing this further. Please, let's leave it here.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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6/3/2016 5:41:00 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:39:48 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:38:15 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
My point was that nobody would have condemned the violence. Picking Bernie from the bunch is stupid.

So, because Trump doesn't do something, Bernie shouldn't. That is a disgracefully low bar to set. Bernie should be better than that.

Trump does condemn the violence.

Every single time it happens.

Because it is against his supporters. Every. Single. Time.


Chris, I am really not interested in pursuing this further. Please, let's leave it here.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
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6/3/2016 5:41:09 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:39:48 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 5:38:15 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
My point was that nobody would have condemned the violence. Picking Bernie from the bunch is stupid.

So, because Trump doesn't do something, Bernie shouldn't. That is a disgracefully low bar to set. Bernie should be better than that.

Chris, I am really not interested in pursuing this further. Please, let's leave it here.

If open supporters of Clinton burned American flags and beat the sh!t out of Trumpians, she wouldn't do sh!t - she wouldn't even address the issue. That's the point.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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