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Religious Data on Gay Rights

1harderthanyouthink
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6/13/2016 10:24:55 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Published October 29th, 2015, by Pew Research.

http://www.pewforum.org...

44% of Christians support gay marriage, alongside 42% of Muslims. Buddhists, Jews, and Hindus are much more likely to support gay marriage - at 84%, 77%, and 64%, respectively. 92% of atheists support gay marriage.

http://www.pewforum.org...

All groups in the survey have become more accepting of homosexuality over time.

Christians made a jump from 44%-54% between 2007 and 2014. Muslims made a jump from 38%-45% in that time.

Among Christians, Evangelicals, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses were the only sects under 50% in 2014, at 36%, 36%, and 16%, respectively.

Predictions:

Following the acceptance of gay rights by the majority of media, politicians, etc - expect most numbers (except for the Bible Belt Christians, Mormons) to be well above 50% by 2020.

Statistical backing for arguments of Muslims vs. West culture

Of course, there was a reason for me posting this thread. In any reality, Muslims aren't that far behind Christians as a whole (though certain sects of Christianity are far ahead) in terms of supporting gay rights.

And as with all groups in the study, Muslims become more culturally liberal with time. The rate at which they become more liberal, however, seems slowed in comparison to other groups - this may be attributed to the Muslims in the study being more likely to have immigrated from another country. I'd be interested in studies on the views of Muslims who are at least second-generation immigrants - to see the difference between those foreign and native born among Muslims in terms of assimilation and to predict how they will look in the future.
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1harderthanyouthink
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6/14/2016 12:52:08 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
Bump
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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6/14/2016 1:19:07 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 12:52:08 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Bump

I was going to do that for you D:
Meh!
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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6/14/2016 1:27:20 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 10:24:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
44% of Christians support gay marriage, alongside 42% of Muslims. Buddhists, Jews, and Hindus are much more likely to support gay marriage - at 84%, 77%, and 64%, respectively. 92% of atheists support gay marriage.
Would be interested in seeing an interview with that 8%.

I'd be interested in studies on the views of Muslims who are at least second-generation immigrants - to see the difference between those foreign and native born among Muslims in terms of assimilation and to predict how they will look in the future.
They seem to have more issues with assimilation. http://www.brookings.edu...
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1harderthanyouthink
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6/14/2016 1:41:16 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 1:27:20 AM, someloser wrote:
At 6/13/2016 10:24:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
44% of Christians support gay marriage, alongside 42% of Muslims. Buddhists, Jews, and Hindus are much more likely to support gay marriage - at 84%, 77%, and 64%, respectively. 92% of atheists support gay marriage.
Would be interested in seeing an interview with that 8%.
It was actually 4% against, and 3% don't know/undecided.
I'd be interested in studies on the views of Muslims who are at least second-generation immigrants - to see the difference between those foreign and native born among Muslims in terms of assimilation and to predict how they will look in the future.
They seem to have more issues with assimilation. http://www.brookings.edu...
That opens up a different discussion: would a ban on Muslims immigrating to the US make our "home-grown terrorist" problem worse?
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Greyparrot
Posts: 14,300
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6/14/2016 1:43:42 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 1:41:16 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

That opens up a different discussion: would a ban on Muslims immigrating to the US make our "home-grown terrorist" problem worse?

Maybe the parents will think twice about forcing their culture down their children's throats.
brontoraptor
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6/14/2016 1:57:27 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 10:24:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Published October 29th, 2015, by Pew Research.

http://www.pewforum.org...

44% of Christians support gay marriage, alongside 42% of Muslims. Buddhists, Jews, and Hindus are much more likely to support gay marriage - at 84%, 77%, and 64%, respectively. 92% of atheists support gay marriage.

http://www.pewforum.org...

All groups in the survey have become more accepting of homosexuality over time.

Christians made a jump from 44%-54% between 2007 and 2014. Muslims made a jump from 38%-45% in that time.

Among Christians, Evangelicals, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses were the only sects under 50% in 2014, at 36%, 36%, and 16%, respectively.

Predictions:

Following the acceptance of gay rights by the majority of media, politicians, etc - expect most numbers (except for the Bible Belt Christians, Mormons) to be well above 50% by 2020.

Statistical backing for arguments of Muslims vs. West culture

Of course, there was a reason for me posting this thread. In any reality, Muslims aren't that far behind Christians as a whole (though certain sects of Christianity are far ahead) in terms of supporting gay rights.

And as with all groups in the study, Muslims become more culturally liberal with time. The rate at which they become more liberal, however, seems slowed in comparison to other groups - this may be attributed to the Muslims in the study being more likely to have immigrated from another country. I'd be interested in studies on the views of Muslims who are at least second-generation immigrants - to see the difference between those foreign and native born among Muslims in terms of assimilation and to predict how they will look in the future.

There's a theological difference that is the reason 450 of 452 suicide bombings in 2015 were Islamic. Atheist suicide bombers? Nope. Christian suicide bombers? Nope. Buhdist bombers? Nope. Hindu bombers? Nope. Ask yourself why. There's a reason, and I know exactly what it is.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

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1harderthanyouthink
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6/14/2016 2:00:20 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 1:43:42 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:41:16 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

That opens up a different discussion: would a ban on Muslims immigrating to the US make our "home-grown terrorist" problem worse?

Maybe the parents will think twice about forcing their culture down their children's throats.

From what Someloser posted, it seems that the children are actually more conservative than their foreign-born parents.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Greyparrot
Posts: 14,300
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6/14/2016 2:02:10 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 2:00:20 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:43:42 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:41:16 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

That opens up a different discussion: would a ban on Muslims immigrating to the US make our "home-grown terrorist" problem worse?

Maybe the parents will think twice about forcing their culture down their children's throats.

From what Someloser posted, it seems that the children are actually more conservative than their foreign-born parents.

That's a very bad thing if the goal is assimilation.
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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6/14/2016 2:22:32 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 2:02:10 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:00:20 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:43:42 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:41:16 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

That opens up a different discussion: would a ban on Muslims immigrating to the US make our "home-grown terrorist" problem worse?

Maybe the parents will think twice about forcing their culture down their children's throats.

From what Someloser posted, it seems that the children are actually more conservative than their foreign-born parents.

That's a very bad thing if the goal is assimilation.

True. But, what's the answer that addresses the actual problem?
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Greyparrot
Posts: 14,300
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6/14/2016 2:29:09 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 2:22:32 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:02:10 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:00:20 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:43:42 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:41:16 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

That opens up a different discussion: would a ban on Muslims immigrating to the US make our "home-grown terrorist" problem worse?

Maybe the parents will think twice about forcing their culture down their children's throats.

From what Someloser posted, it seems that the children are actually more conservative than their foreign-born parents.

That's a very bad thing if the goal is assimilation.

True. But, what's the answer that addresses the actual problem?

Ask Trump.
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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6/14/2016 2:33:40 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 2:29:09 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:22:32 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:02:10 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:00:20 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:43:42 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:41:16 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

That opens up a different discussion: would a ban on Muslims immigrating to the US make our "home-grown terrorist" problem worse?

Maybe the parents will think twice about forcing their culture down their children's throats.

From what Someloser posted, it seems that the children are actually more conservative than their foreign-born parents.

That's a very bad thing if the goal is assimilation.

True. But, what's the answer that addresses the actual problem?

Ask Trump.

But we can't deport people who are citizens - and the home-grown radicals are native-born citizens. So then we have people who already perceive the US as against them, and we ban Muslims from immigrating to the US. That won't stop the Orlando attack from repeating: and that's what mass shootings are at this point - repeating preventable events - that will make them more likely to happen because it will only serve to "prove" radical points.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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TheChristian
Posts: 1,031
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6/14/2016 2:59:41 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 2:33:40 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:29:09 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:22:32 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:02:10 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:00:20 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:43:42 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:41:16 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

That opens up a different discussion: would a ban on Muslims immigrating to the US make our "home-grown terrorist" problem worse?

Maybe the parents will think twice about forcing their culture down their children's throats.

From what Someloser posted, it seems that the children are actually more conservative than their foreign-born parents.

That's a very bad thing if the goal is assimilation.

True. But, what's the answer that addresses the actual problem?

Ask Trump.

But we can't deport people who are citizens - and the home-grown radicals are native-born citizens. So then we have people who already perceive the US as against them, and we ban Muslims from immigrating to the US. That won't stop the Orlando attack from repeating: and that's what mass shootings are at this point - repeating preventable events - that will make them more likely to happen because it will only serve to "prove" radical points.

Are you furthering your own agenda here or using the tragedy as an example?
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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6/14/2016 3:23:17 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 2:59:41 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:33:40 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:29:09 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:22:32 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:02:10 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:00:20 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:43:42 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:41:16 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

That opens up a different discussion: would a ban on Muslims immigrating to the US make our "home-grown terrorist" problem worse?

Maybe the parents will think twice about forcing their culture down their children's throats.

From what Someloser posted, it seems that the children are actually more conservative than their foreign-born parents.

That's a very bad thing if the goal is assimilation.

True. But, what's the answer that addresses the actual problem?

Ask Trump.

But we can't deport people who are citizens - and the home-grown radicals are native-born citizens. So then we have people who already perceive the US as against them, and we ban Muslims from immigrating to the US. That won't stop the Orlando attack from repeating: and that's what mass shootings are at this point - repeating preventable events - that will make them more likely to happen because it will only serve to "prove" radical points.

Are you furthering your own agenda here or using the tragedy as an example?

Since there has been plenty of discussion on "what to do about the Muslims" after the Orlando shooting, I thought it would be good to provide statistical analysis of the greater issue at hand in hopes of a more nuanced discussion.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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TheChristian
Posts: 1,031
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6/14/2016 3:29:14 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 3:23:17 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:59:41 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:33:40 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:29:09 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:22:32 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:02:10 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:00:20 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:43:42 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:41:16 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

That opens up a different discussion: would a ban on Muslims immigrating to the US make our "home-grown terrorist" problem worse?

Maybe the parents will think twice about forcing their culture down their children's throats.

From what Someloser posted, it seems that the children are actually more conservative than their foreign-born parents.

That's a very bad thing if the goal is assimilation.

True. But, what's the answer that addresses the actual problem?

Ask Trump.

But we can't deport people who are citizens - and the home-grown radicals are native-born citizens. So then we have people who already perceive the US as against them, and we ban Muslims from immigrating to the US. That won't stop the Orlando attack from repeating: and that's what mass shootings are at this point - repeating preventable events - that will make them more likely to happen because it will only serve to "prove" radical points.

Are you furthering your own agenda here or using the tragedy as an example?

Since there has been plenty of discussion on "what to do about the Muslims" after the Orlando shooting, I thought it would be good to provide statistical analysis of the greater issue at hand in hopes of a more nuanced discussion.

With all due respect, the only issue here is that of an extremist group that needs wiped out and the Muslim faith cleansed of those groups
1harderthanyouthink
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6/14/2016 3:34:04 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 3:29:14 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:23:17 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:59:41 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:33:40 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:29:09 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:22:32 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:02:10 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:00:20 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:43:42 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:41:16 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

That opens up a different discussion: would a ban on Muslims immigrating to the US make our "home-grown terrorist" problem worse?

Maybe the parents will think twice about forcing their culture down their children's throats.

From what Someloser posted, it seems that the children are actually more conservative than their foreign-born parents.

That's a very bad thing if the goal is assimilation.

True. But, what's the answer that addresses the actual problem?

Ask Trump.

But we can't deport people who are citizens - and the home-grown radicals are native-born citizens. So then we have people who already perceive the US as against them, and we ban Muslims from immigrating to the US. That won't stop the Orlando attack from repeating: and that's what mass shootings are at this point - repeating preventable events - that will make them more likely to happen because it will only serve to "prove" radical points.

Are you furthering your own agenda here or using the tragedy as an example?

Since there has been plenty of discussion on "what to do about the Muslims" after the Orlando shooting, I thought it would be good to provide statistical analysis of the greater issue at hand in hopes of a more nuanced discussion.

With all due respect, the only issue here is that of an extremist group that needs wiped out and the Muslim faith cleansed of those groups

With all due respect, that view is not only stupid in the context you propose it, it is impossible to achieve through anything but assimilation over time.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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PetersSmith
Posts: 5,848
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6/14/2016 3:36:15 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 10:24:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Published October 29th, 2015, by Pew Research.

http://www.pewforum.org...

44% of Christians support gay marriage, alongside 42% of Muslims. Buddhists, Jews, and Hindus are much more likely to support gay marriage - at 84%, 77%, and 64%, respectively. 92% of atheists support gay marriage.

http://www.pewforum.org...

All groups in the survey have become more accepting of homosexuality over time.

Christians made a jump from 44%-54% between 2007 and 2014. Muslims made a jump from 38%-45% in that time.

Among Christians, Evangelicals, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses were the only sects under 50% in 2014, at 36%, 36%, and 16%, respectively.

Predictions:

Following the acceptance of gay rights by the majority of media, politicians, etc - expect most numbers (except for the Bible Belt Christians, Mormons) to be well above 50% by 2020.

Statistical backing for arguments of Muslims vs. West culture

Of course, there was a reason for me posting this thread. In any reality, Muslims aren't that far behind Christians as a whole (though certain sects of Christianity are far ahead) in terms of supporting gay rights.

And as with all groups in the study, Muslims become more culturally liberal with time. The rate at which they become more liberal, however, seems slowed in comparison to other groups - this may be attributed to the Muslims in the study being more likely to have immigrated from another country. I'd be interested in studies on the views of Muslims who are at least second-generation immigrants - to see the difference between those foreign and native born among Muslims in terms of assimilation and to predict how they will look in the future.

This just shows American secularization. It does not reflect the general belief of the practitioners of these religions.
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TheChristian
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6/14/2016 3:37:28 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 3:34:04 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:29:14 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:23:17 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:59:41 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:33:40 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:29:09 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:22:32 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:02:10 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:00:20 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:43:42 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:41:16 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

That opens up a different discussion: would a ban on Muslims immigrating to the US make our "home-grown terrorist" problem worse?

Maybe the parents will think twice about forcing their culture down their children's throats.

From what Someloser posted, it seems that the children are actually more conservative than their foreign-born parents.

That's a very bad thing if the goal is assimilation.

True. But, what's the answer that addresses the actual problem?

Ask Trump.

But we can't deport people who are citizens - and the home-grown radicals are native-born citizens. So then we have people who already perceive the US as against them, and we ban Muslims from immigrating to the US. That won't stop the Orlando attack from repeating: and that's what mass shootings are at this point - repeating preventable events - that will make them more likely to happen because it will only serve to "prove" radical points.

Are you furthering your own agenda here or using the tragedy as an example?

Since there has been plenty of discussion on "what to do about the Muslims" after the Orlando shooting, I thought it would be good to provide statistical analysis of the greater issue at hand in hopes of a more nuanced discussion.

With all due respect, the only issue here is that of an extremist group that needs wiped out and the Muslim faith cleansed of those groups

With all due respect, that view is not only stupid in the context you propose it, it is impossible to achieve through anything but assimilation over time.

Assimilation is something used by racists or bigots who don't like a group. I have a perfect solution. Leave them alone, exterminate ISIS and other terror groups, regardless of race or creed, and then try to cleanse Muslims of the unfair charges against the majority for the actions of a minority
1harderthanyouthink
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6/14/2016 3:38:09 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 3:36:15 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/13/2016 10:24:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Published October 29th, 2015, by Pew Research.

http://www.pewforum.org...

44% of Christians support gay marriage, alongside 42% of Muslims. Buddhists, Jews, and Hindus are much more likely to support gay marriage - at 84%, 77%, and 64%, respectively. 92% of atheists support gay marriage.

http://www.pewforum.org...

All groups in the survey have become more accepting of homosexuality over time.

Christians made a jump from 44%-54% between 2007 and 2014. Muslims made a jump from 38%-45% in that time.

Among Christians, Evangelicals, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses were the only sects under 50% in 2014, at 36%, 36%, and 16%, respectively.

Predictions:

Following the acceptance of gay rights by the majority of media, politicians, etc - expect most numbers (except for the Bible Belt Christians, Mormons) to be well above 50% by 2020.

Statistical backing for arguments of Muslims vs. West culture

Of course, there was a reason for me posting this thread. In any reality, Muslims aren't that far behind Christians as a whole (though certain sects of Christianity are far ahead) in terms of supporting gay rights.

And as with all groups in the study, Muslims become more culturally liberal with time. The rate at which they become more liberal, however, seems slowed in comparison to other groups - this may be attributed to the Muslims in the study being more likely to have immigrated from another country. I'd be interested in studies on the views of Muslims who are at least second-generation immigrants - to see the difference between those foreign and native born among Muslims in terms of assimilation and to predict how they will look in the future.

This just shows American secularization. It does not reflect the general belief of the practitioners of these religions.

The question wasn't to "people of Muslim heritage" - it was directed to "Muslims". Secular people would fall under the atheist/agnostic data.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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PetersSmith
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6/14/2016 3:41:28 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 3:38:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:36:15 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/13/2016 10:24:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Published October 29th, 2015, by Pew Research.

http://www.pewforum.org...

44% of Christians support gay marriage, alongside 42% of Muslims. Buddhists, Jews, and Hindus are much more likely to support gay marriage - at 84%, 77%, and 64%, respectively. 92% of atheists support gay marriage.

http://www.pewforum.org...

All groups in the survey have become more accepting of homosexuality over time.

Christians made a jump from 44%-54% between 2007 and 2014. Muslims made a jump from 38%-45% in that time.

Among Christians, Evangelicals, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses were the only sects under 50% in 2014, at 36%, 36%, and 16%, respectively.

Predictions:

Following the acceptance of gay rights by the majority of media, politicians, etc - expect most numbers (except for the Bible Belt Christians, Mormons) to be well above 50% by 2020.

Statistical backing for arguments of Muslims vs. West culture

Of course, there was a reason for me posting this thread. In any reality, Muslims aren't that far behind Christians as a whole (though certain sects of Christianity are far ahead) in terms of supporting gay rights.

And as with all groups in the study, Muslims become more culturally liberal with time. The rate at which they become more liberal, however, seems slowed in comparison to other groups - this may be attributed to the Muslims in the study being more likely to have immigrated from another country. I'd be interested in studies on the views of Muslims who are at least second-generation immigrants - to see the difference between those foreign and native born among Muslims in terms of assimilation and to predict how they will look in the future.

This just shows American secularization. It does not reflect the general belief of the practitioners of these religions.

The question wasn't to "people of Muslim heritage" - it was directed to "Muslims". Secular people would fall under the atheist/agnostic data.

Yes, I know. And I'll repeat. The religious followers in America are becoming secularized, to where they are becoming less "fundamentalist" as of late. This "secularization" is not prevalent throughout everywhere. So you cannot make statements like saying "Muslims are becoming more socially liberal". You would say American Muslims are. Because I assure you if this study was done on any Muslim-dominated country there'd be a huge dip in support for gay rights.
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1harderthanyouthink
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6/14/2016 3:42:09 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 3:37:28 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:34:04 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:29:14 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:23:17 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:59:41 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:33:40 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:29:09 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:22:32 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:02:10 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:00:20 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:43:42 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:41:16 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
That opens up a different discussion: would a ban on Muslims immigrating to the US make our "home-grown terrorist" problem worse?

Maybe the parents will think twice about forcing their culture down their children's throats.

From what Someloser posted, it seems that the children are actually more conservative than their foreign-born parents.

That's a very bad thing if the goal is assimilation.

True. But, what's the answer that addresses the actual problem?

Ask Trump.

But we can't deport people who are citizens - and the home-grown radicals are native-born citizens. So then we have people who already perceive the US as against them, and we ban Muslims from immigrating to the US. That won't stop the Orlando attack from repeating: and that's what mass shootings are at this point - repeating preventable events - that will make them more likely to happen because it will only serve to "prove" radical points.

Are you furthering your own agenda here or using the tragedy as an example?

Since there has been plenty of discussion on "what to do about the Muslims" after the Orlando shooting, I thought it would be good to provide statistical analysis of the greater issue at hand in hopes of a more nuanced discussion.

With all due respect, the only issue here is that of an extremist group that needs wiped out and the Muslim faith cleansed of those groups

With all due respect, that view is not only stupid in the context you propose it, it is impossible to achieve through anything but assimilation over time.

Assimilation is something used by racists or bigots who don't like a group. I have a perfect solution. Leave them alone, exterminate ISIS and other terror groups, regardless of race or creed, and then try to cleanse Muslims of the unfair charges against the majority for the actions of a minority

Assimilation isn't a tool - it's a natural process that every group in US history has gone through.

Exterminating ISIS won't do you any good. For the Middle East to cleanse itself of terrorist organizations, we must not be involved - or at least we must not play the lead role - against these people.

In the meantime, Americans need to be more involved with the communities of fellow citizens who are Muslim.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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1harderthanyouthink
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6/14/2016 3:43:08 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 3:41:28 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:38:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:36:15 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/13/2016 10:24:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Published October 29th, 2015, by Pew Research.

http://www.pewforum.org...

44% of Christians support gay marriage, alongside 42% of Muslims. Buddhists, Jews, and Hindus are much more likely to support gay marriage - at 84%, 77%, and 64%, respectively. 92% of atheists support gay marriage.

http://www.pewforum.org...

All groups in the survey have become more accepting of homosexuality over time.

Christians made a jump from 44%-54% between 2007 and 2014. Muslims made a jump from 38%-45% in that time.

Among Christians, Evangelicals, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses were the only sects under 50% in 2014, at 36%, 36%, and 16%, respectively.

Predictions:

Following the acceptance of gay rights by the majority of media, politicians, etc - expect most numbers (except for the Bible Belt Christians, Mormons) to be well above 50% by 2020.

Statistical backing for arguments of Muslims vs. West culture

Of course, there was a reason for me posting this thread. In any reality, Muslims aren't that far behind Christians as a whole (though certain sects of Christianity are far ahead) in terms of supporting gay rights.

And as with all groups in the study, Muslims become more culturally liberal with time. The rate at which they become more liberal, however, seems slowed in comparison to other groups - this may be attributed to the Muslims in the study being more likely to have immigrated from another country. I'd be interested in studies on the views of Muslims who are at least second-generation immigrants - to see the difference between those foreign and native born among Muslims in terms of assimilation and to predict how they will look in the future.

This just shows American secularization. It does not reflect the general belief of the practitioners of these religions.

The question wasn't to "people of Muslim heritage" - it was directed to "Muslims". Secular people would fall under the atheist/agnostic data.

Yes, I know. And I'll repeat. The religious followers in America are becoming secularized, to where they are becoming less "fundamentalist" as of late. This "secularization" is not prevalent throughout everywhere. So you cannot make statements like saying "Muslims are becoming more socially liberal". You would say American Muslims are. Because I assure you if this study was done on any Muslim-dominated country there'd be a huge dip in support for gay rights.

That subject is irrelevant to the OP, then.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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TheChristian
Posts: 1,031
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6/14/2016 3:45:52 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 3:42:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:37:28 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:34:04 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:29:14 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:23:17 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:59:41 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:33:40 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:29:09 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:22:32 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:02:10 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:00:20 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:43:42 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:41:16 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
That opens up a different discussion: would a ban on Muslims immigrating to the US make our "home-grown terrorist" problem worse?

Maybe the parents will think twice about forcing their culture down their children's throats.

From what Someloser posted, it seems that the children are actually more conservative than their foreign-born parents.

That's a very bad thing if the goal is assimilation.

True. But, what's the answer that addresses the actual problem?

Ask Trump.

But we can't deport people who are citizens - and the home-grown radicals are native-born citizens. So then we have people who already perceive the US as against them, and we ban Muslims from immigrating to the US. That won't stop the Orlando attack from repeating: and that's what mass shootings are at this point - repeating preventable events - that will make them more likely to happen because it will only serve to "prove" radical points.

Are you furthering your own agenda here or using the tragedy as an example?

Since there has been plenty of discussion on "what to do about the Muslims" after the Orlando shooting, I thought it would be good to provide statistical analysis of the greater issue at hand in hopes of a more nuanced discussion.

With all due respect, the only issue here is that of an extremist group that needs wiped out and the Muslim faith cleansed of those groups

With all due respect, that view is not only stupid in the context you propose it, it is impossible to achieve through anything but assimilation over time.

Assimilation is something used by racists or bigots who don't like a group. I have a perfect solution. Leave them alone, exterminate ISIS and other terror groups, regardless of race or creed, and then try to cleanse Muslims of the unfair charges against the majority for the actions of a minority

Assimilation isn't a tool - it's a natural process that every group in US history has gone through.

A process that WE unfairly demand. A process that allows for them to follow our laws, but true assimilation is not possible and unrealistic and should not be demanded.
Exterminating ISIS won't do you any good. For the Middle East to cleanse itself of terrorist organizations, we must not be involved - or at least we must not play the lead role - against these people.

We made our bed with the removal of Saddam Hussein. We have to clean up our mess. Do I deny he was a nut? No. But by taking him out, we created this problem. So we should clean it up.
In the meantime, Americans need to be more involved with the communities of fellow citizens who are Muslim.
Not disagreeing there
1harderthanyouthink
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6/14/2016 3:55:20 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 3:45:52 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:42:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:37:28 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:34:04 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:29:14 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:23:17 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:59:41 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:33:40 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:29:09 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:22:32 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:02:10 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:00:20 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
That's a very bad thing if the goal is assimilation.

True. But, what's the answer that addresses the actual problem?

Ask Trump.

But we can't deport people who are citizens - and the home-grown radicals are native-born citizens. So then we have people who already perceive the US as against them, and we ban Muslims from immigrating to the US. That won't stop the Orlando attack from repeating: and that's what mass shootings are at this point - repeating preventable events - that will make them more likely to happen because it will only serve to "prove" radical points.

Are you furthering your own agenda here or using the tragedy as an example?

Since there has been plenty of discussion on "what to do about the Muslims" after the Orlando shooting, I thought it would be good to provide statistical analysis of the greater issue at hand in hopes of a more nuanced discussion.

With all due respect, the only issue here is that of an extremist group that needs wiped out and the Muslim faith cleansed of those groups

With all due respect, that view is not only stupid in the context you propose it, it is impossible to achieve through anything but assimilation over time.

Assimilation is something used by racists or bigots who don't like a group. I have a perfect solution. Leave them alone, exterminate ISIS and other terror groups, regardless of race or creed, and then try to cleanse Muslims of the unfair charges against the majority for the actions of a minority

Assimilation isn't a tool - it's a natural process that every group in US history has gone through.

A process that WE unfairly demand. A process that allows for them to follow our laws, but true assimilation is not possible and unrealistic and should not be demanded.

It's not demanded - I think that a degree of separate identity is fine - Christians, gays, and some racial groups have it. But breeding anti-American sentiment through unchallenged foreign Imams is a bad thing for both the country and Muslims as a connected people.

Exterminating ISIS won't do you any good. For the Middle East to cleanse itself of terrorist organizations, we must not be involved - or at least we must not play the lead role - against these people.

We made our bed with the removal of Saddam Hussein. We have to clean up our mess. Do I deny he was a nut? No. But by taking him out, we created this problem. So we should clean it up.

No. Sometimes we need to say "we don't know what we're doing". This is that sort of time.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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someloser
Posts: 1,377
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6/14/2016 4:06:09 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 3:42:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Assimilation isn't a tool - it's a natural process that every group in US history has gone through.
If by every you mean none.

The original English groups still haven't "assimilated". The Southern posterity of the Cavaliers are still really different from the Northern Anglo-Dutch.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
1harderthanyouthink
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6/14/2016 4:20:39 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 4:06:09 AM, someloser wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:42:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Assimilation isn't a tool - it's a natural process that every group in US history has gone through.
If by every you mean none.

The original English groups still haven't "assimilated". The Southern posterity of the Cavaliers are still really different from the Northern Anglo-Dutch.

Perhaps assimilation isn't the term I should be using then - at least not "full assimilation". Americanization would be more fitting for my usage.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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someloser
Posts: 1,377
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6/14/2016 5:12:05 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 1:41:16 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 1:27:20 AM, someloser wrote:
They seem to have more issues with assimilation. http://www.brookings.edu...
That opens up a different discussion: would a ban on Muslims immigrating to the US make our "home-grown terrorist" problem worse?
dunno. I know a Trump presidency might (but not directly), or at least, is more likely to than the ban.

It would help at reducing their future numbers, though.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Bennett91
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6/14/2016 5:52:29 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 1:57:27 AM, brontoraptor wrote:

There's a theological difference that is the reason 450 of 452 suicide bombings in 2015 were Islamic. Atheist suicide bombers? Nope. Christian suicide bombers? Nope. Buhdist bombers? Nope. Hindu bombers? Nope. Ask yourself why. There's a reason, and I know exactly what it is.

Who were the other 2?
someloser
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6/14/2016 6:35:32 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 1:57:27 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
There's a theological difference that is the reason 450 of 452 suicide bombings in 2015 were Islamic. Atheist suicide bombers? Nope. Christian suicide bombers? Nope. Buhdist bombers? Nope. Hindu bombers? Nope. Ask yourself why. There's a reason, and I know exactly what it is.
you think you do. but you don't. and every thread you've made on the matter shows exactly that.

what many people -- by which I mean brontoraptor -- don't seem to understand is that this is not a religious issue.

not solely.

muslim terrorism is as much a recent political issue as it is religious.

maybe more so.

but while the religion and religious identity is a very important facet to the problem, it's not anywhere close to the totality of the problem. the idea that some person is reading a book in a vacuum and compelled to kill by some malignant force within is absurd.

it's almost as absurd as the reactions of the Islamuhfoebee-a crowd, who would seriously have you believe that muslims are the ones truly at risk here, or the insistence on "religious diversity" and other pseudo-cosmopolitan crap that promises to continue plaguing the 21st century.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
TheChristian
Posts: 1,031
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6/14/2016 1:06:36 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 3:55:20 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:45:52 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:42:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:37:28 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:34:04 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:29:14 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 3:23:17 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:59:41 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:33:40 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:29:09 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:22:32 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:02:10 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2016 2:00:20 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
That's a very bad thing if the goal is assimilation.

True. But, what's the answer that addresses the actual problem?

Ask Trump.

But we can't deport people who are citizens - and the home-grown radicals are native-born citizens. So then we have people who already perceive the US as against them, and we ban Muslims from immigrating to the US. That won't stop the Orlando attack from repeating: and that's what mass shootings are at this point - repeating preventable events - that will make them more likely to happen because it will only serve to "prove" radical points.

Are you furthering your own agenda here or using the tragedy as an example?

Since there has been plenty of discussion on "what to do about the Muslims" after the Orlando shooting, I thought it would be good to provide statistical analysis of the greater issue at hand in hopes of a more nuanced discussion.

With all due respect, the only issue here is that of an extremist group that needs wiped out and the Muslim faith cleansed of those groups

With all due respect, that view is not only stupid in the context you propose it, it is impossible to achieve through anything but assimilation over time.

Assimilation is something used by racists or bigots who don't like a group. I have a perfect solution. Leave them alone, exterminate ISIS and other terror groups, regardless of race or creed, and then try to cleanse Muslims of the unfair charges against the majority for the actions of a minority

Assimilation isn't a tool - it's a natural process that every group in US history has gone through.

A process that WE unfairly demand. A process that allows for them to follow our laws, but true assimilation is not possible and unrealistic and should not be demanded.

It's not demanded - I think that a degree of separate identity is fine - Christians, gays, and some racial groups have it. But breeding anti-American sentiment through unchallenged foreign Imams is a bad thing for both the country and Muslims as a connected people.

Exterminating ISIS won't do you any good. For the Middle East to cleanse itself of terrorist organizations, we must not be involved - or at least we must not play the lead role - against these people.

We made our bed with the removal of Saddam Hussein. We have to clean up our mess. Do I deny he was a nut? No. But by taking him out, we created this problem. So we should clean it up.

No. Sometimes we need to say "we don't know what we're doing". This is that sort of time.

We stayed out of this for too long. Look at a map of ISIS controlled areas. http://www.dailymail.co.uk... and that's an outdated map. They have been left alone and now, they are a threat not only to over a billion people, but to our country. Now, I will grant you that we shouldn't be in this position in the first place. Had we left the genocidal Saddam Hussein in power, ISIS wouldn't have been able to develop into what it is today. I'm going to tell you what we should have done. I think that we could have eliminated Osama bin Laden and left it at that. Instead, we remove S.H. and now we have ISIS, a group that was largely under control until we stepped in. We made the mess, we may not know how to clean it up, but that does not change the fact that we should clean it up.