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John Oliver: Brexit

1harderthanyouthink
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6/20/2016 8:36:33 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Since whenever John Oliver does something on a big political issue, someone posts the link to the video in this forum - I thought I'd do it today.

He provides background for those who are unaware of the situation and referendum. I'm interested in hearing the thoughts for this video.

(In direct responses to the OP, add an "s" to the end of "http".)
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Lsumichiganfan
Posts: 267
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6/21/2016 12:51:01 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 8:36:33 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Since whenever John Oliver does something on a big political issue, someone posts the link to the video in this forum - I thought I'd do it today.



He provides background for those who are unaware of the situation and referendum. I'm interested in hearing the thoughts for this video.

(In direct responses to the OP, add an "s" to the end of "http".)

John Oliver doesn't tolerate bullcrap and sticks to the issues.That's what I like about him
Please vote on this debate: http://www.debate.org...
"You have displayed the political understanding of a tortoise thus far in this election" -Harder
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,241
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6/21/2016 1:00:16 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 8:36:33 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Since whenever John Oliver does something on a big political issue, someone posts the link to the video in this forum - I thought I'd do it today.



He provides background for those who are unaware of the situation and referendum. I'm interested in hearing the thoughts for this video.

(In direct responses to the OP, add an "s" to the end of "http".)

Really hard to do any analysis of any message because comedians make a living off of strawmanning and parodying messengers without looking at the actual message.
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,100
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6/21/2016 1:35:50 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 1:00:16 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/20/2016 8:36:33 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Since whenever John Oliver does something on a big political issue, someone posts the link to the video in this forum - I thought I'd do it today.



He provides background for those who are unaware of the situation and referendum. I'm interested in hearing the thoughts for this video.

(In direct responses to the OP, add an "s" to the end of "http".)

Really hard to do any analysis of any message because comedians make a living off of strawmanning and parodying messengers without looking at the actual message.

True, but Oliver tends to give statistics and existing laws and *then* makes fun of the position(s) he finds dumb.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Greyparrot
Posts: 14,241
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6/21/2016 1:36:45 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 1:35:50 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:00:16 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/20/2016 8:36:33 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Since whenever John Oliver does something on a big political issue, someone posts the link to the video in this forum - I thought I'd do it today.



He provides background for those who are unaware of the situation and referendum. I'm interested in hearing the thoughts for this video.

(In direct responses to the OP, add an "s" to the end of "http".)

Really hard to do any analysis of any message because comedians make a living off of strawmanning and parodying messengers without looking at the actual message.

True, but Oliver tends to give statistics and existing laws and *then* makes fun of the position(s) he finds dumb.

I dont want to sift through 14 minutes of comedy to find that.
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,100
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6/21/2016 1:38:36 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 1:36:45 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:35:50 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:00:16 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/20/2016 8:36:33 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Since whenever John Oliver does something on a big political issue, someone posts the link to the video in this forum - I thought I'd do it today.



He provides background for those who are unaware of the situation and referendum. I'm interested in hearing the thoughts for this video.

(In direct responses to the OP, add an "s" to the end of "http".)

Really hard to do any analysis of any message because comedians make a living off of strawmanning and parodying messengers without looking at the actual message.

True, but Oliver tends to give statistics and existing laws and *then* makes fun of the position(s) he finds dumb.

I dont want to sift through 14 minutes of comedy to find that.

Eh. It's funny, and informative for those who don't follow the issue.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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twocupcakes
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6/21/2016 2:21:48 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 1:35:50 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:00:16 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/20/2016 8:36:33 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Since whenever John Oliver does something on a big political issue, someone posts the link to the video in this forum - I thought I'd do it today.



He provides background for those who are unaware of the situation and referendum. I'm interested in hearing the thoughts for this video.

(In direct responses to the OP, add an "s" to the end of "http".)

Really hard to do any analysis of any message because comedians make a living off of strawmanning and parodying messengers without looking at the actual message.

True, but Oliver tends to give statistics and existing laws and *then* makes fun of the position(s) he finds dumb.

Oliver gives more statistics then Trump lol
lannan13
Posts: 23,022
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6/21/2016 4:36:24 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
I can't wait to see how this turns out. I'm currently doing a debate against Envisage on the subject.
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"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

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Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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tejretics
Posts: 6,083
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6/21/2016 11:50:24 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 8:36:33 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

Awesome one.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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6/21/2016 1:21:45 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 8:36:33 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Since whenever John Oliver does something on a big political issue, someone posts the link to the video in this forum - I thought I'd do it today.

He provides background for those who are unaware of the situation and referendum. I'm interested in hearing the thoughts for this video.

(In direct responses to the OP, add an "s" to the end of "http".)

The problem with this is that he doesn't show that the claims are 'bullsh!t', just exaggerated. And then ignores the fact that the other side is infamous for engaging in absurd hyperbole in order to make one side look crazy. Then goes through a slideshow of crazy people on the opposing side, and ignores the crazy on his own side.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,241
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6/21/2016 1:26:32 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 1:21:45 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/20/2016 8:36:33 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Since whenever John Oliver does something on a big political issue, someone posts the link to the video in this forum - I thought I'd do it today.

He provides background for those who are unaware of the situation and referendum. I'm interested in hearing the thoughts for this video.

(In direct responses to the OP, add an "s" to the end of "http".)

The problem with this is that he doesn't show that the claims are 'bullsh!t', just exaggerated. And then ignores the fact that the other side is infamous for engaging in absurd hyperbole in order to make one side look crazy. Then goes through a slideshow of crazy people on the opposing side, and ignores the crazy on his own side.

Good luck finding any substance at the center of that pile of......
Lsumichiganfan
Posts: 267
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6/21/2016 1:57:28 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 4:36:24 AM, lannan13 wrote:
I can't wait to see how this turns out. I'm currently doing a debate against Envisage on the subject.

I can't wait for that debate ethier I am currently undecided on the issue but leaning towards stay. I will be interested to hear arguments from both sides on the issue.
Please vote on this debate: http://www.debate.org...
"You have displayed the political understanding of a tortoise thus far in this election" -Harder
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,100
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6/21/2016 2:28:59 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 1:21:45 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/20/2016 8:36:33 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Since whenever John Oliver does something on a big political issue, someone posts the link to the video in this forum - I thought I'd do it today.

He provides background for those who are unaware of the situation and referendum. I'm interested in hearing the thoughts for this video.

(In direct responses to the OP, add an "s" to the end of "http".)

The problem with this is that he doesn't show that the claims are 'bullsh!t', just exaggerated.

Which is a good sign of bullsh!t.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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6/21/2016 2:29:23 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 1:26:32 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:21:45 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/20/2016 8:36:33 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Since whenever John Oliver does something on a big political issue, someone posts the link to the video in this forum - I thought I'd do it today.

He provides background for those who are unaware of the situation and referendum. I'm interested in hearing the thoughts for this video.

(In direct responses to the OP, add an "s" to the end of "http".)

The problem with this is that he doesn't show that the claims are 'bullsh!t', just exaggerated. And then ignores the fact that the other side is infamous for engaging in absurd hyperbole in order to make one side look crazy. Then goes through a slideshow of crazy people on the opposing side, and ignores the crazy on his own side.

Good luck finding any substance at the center of that pile of......

It's naked propaganda, and both sides have it. It should never be mistaken as an intelligent, impartial take on the issue.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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6/21/2016 2:38:58 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 2:28:59 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:21:45 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/20/2016 8:36:33 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Since whenever John Oliver does something on a big political issue, someone posts the link to the video in this forum - I thought I'd do it today.

He provides background for those who are unaware of the situation and referendum. I'm interested in hearing the thoughts for this video.

(In direct responses to the OP, add an "s" to the end of "http".)

The problem with this is that he doesn't show that the claims are 'bullsh!t', just exaggerated.

Which is a good sign of bullsh!t.

No. 'Bullsh!t' implies false, not exaggerated. If I claim to have stabbed five people to death, and it turns out that one died of unrelated wounds, that doesn't mean that I haven't stabbed four people. The claim is exaggerated. The implication that Oliver makes is that the other side has no good arguments because he went after the most strident voices and found exaggerations. If we apply that same metric to his own side, we'd come to the opposite conclusion.

http://www.electomatic.com...
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,100
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6/21/2016 2:42:02 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 2:38:58 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:28:59 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:21:45 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/20/2016 8:36:33 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Since whenever John Oliver does something on a big political issue, someone posts the link to the video in this forum - I thought I'd do it today.

He provides background for those who are unaware of the situation and referendum. I'm interested in hearing the thoughts for this video.

(In direct responses to the OP, add an "s" to the end of "http".)

The problem with this is that he doesn't show that the claims are 'bullsh!t', just exaggerated.

Which is a good sign of bullsh!t.

No. 'Bullsh!t' implies false, not exaggerated. If I claim to have stabbed five people to death, and it turns out that one died of unrelated wounds, that doesn't mean that I haven't stabbed four people. The claim is exaggerated.

I mean...that claim is also false...
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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6/21/2016 2:45:40 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 2:42:02 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:38:58 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:28:59 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:21:45 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/20/2016 8:36:33 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Since whenever John Oliver does something on a big political issue, someone posts the link to the video in this forum - I thought I'd do it today.

He provides background for those who are unaware of the situation and referendum. I'm interested in hearing the thoughts for this video.

(In direct responses to the OP, add an "s" to the end of "http".)

The problem with this is that he doesn't show that the claims are 'bullsh!t', just exaggerated.

Which is a good sign of bullsh!t.

No. 'Bullsh!t' implies false, not exaggerated. If I claim to have stabbed five people to death, and it turns out that one died of unrelated wounds, that doesn't mean that I haven't stabbed four people. The claim is exaggerated.

I mean...that claim is also false...

...

But does that undermine me using that claim to show that I have stabbed numerous people? That is what Oliver is implying. That because he found a few regulations on that pillow list which don't apply, he can dismiss the entire argument, instead of saying 'oh, it's actually only this many' and continuing to engage regulation issues. It's designed to go straight to the limbic brain, so that the person associates the speaker with 'untrustworthy' and becomes hardened to any arguments which they might make.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,100
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6/21/2016 2:58:26 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 2:45:40 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:42:02 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:38:58 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:28:59 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:21:45 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/20/2016 8:36:33 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Since whenever John Oliver does something on a big political issue, someone posts the link to the video in this forum - I thought I'd do it today.

He provides background for those who are unaware of the situation and referendum. I'm interested in hearing the thoughts for this video.

(In direct responses to the OP, add an "s" to the end of "http".)

The problem with this is that he doesn't show that the claims are 'bullsh!t', just exaggerated.

Which is a good sign of bullsh!t.

No. 'Bullsh!t' implies false, not exaggerated. If I claim to have stabbed five people to death, and it turns out that one died of unrelated wounds, that doesn't mean that I haven't stabbed four people. The claim is exaggerated.

I mean...that claim is also false...

...

But does that undermine me using that claim to show that I have stabbed numerous people? That is what Oliver is implying. That because he found a few regulations on that pillow list which don't apply, he can dismiss the entire argument, instead of saying 'oh, it's actually only this many' and continuing to engage regulation issues. It's designed to go straight to the limbic brain, so that the person associates the speaker with 'untrustworthy' and becomes hardened to any arguments which they might make.

That's true. Sometimes this is a worse effect of certain videos than others, though. Maybe this one was particularly bad.

I already thought the Leave Camp was on some bullsh!t (like a Tory saying Obama's opinion on trade deals "doesn't matter" when Obama said a trade deal if they leave will not come quickly, and everything Boris Johnson says).
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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6/21/2016 3:12:44 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 2:58:26 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:45:40 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:42:02 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:38:58 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:28:59 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:21:45 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/20/2016 8:36:33 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Since whenever John Oliver does something on a big political issue, someone posts the link to the video in this forum - I thought I'd do it today.

He provides background for those who are unaware of the situation and referendum. I'm interested in hearing the thoughts for this video.

(In direct responses to the OP, add an "s" to the end of "http".)

The problem with this is that he doesn't show that the claims are 'bullsh!t', just exaggerated.

Which is a good sign of bullsh!t.

No. 'Bullsh!t' implies false, not exaggerated. If I claim to have stabbed five people to death, and it turns out that one died of unrelated wounds, that doesn't mean that I haven't stabbed four people. The claim is exaggerated.

I mean...that claim is also false...

...

But does that undermine me using that claim to show that I have stabbed numerous people? That is what Oliver is implying. That because he found a few regulations on that pillow list which don't apply, he can dismiss the entire argument, instead of saying 'oh, it's actually only this many' and continuing to engage regulation issues. It's designed to go straight to the limbic brain, so that the person associates the speaker with 'untrustworthy' and becomes hardened to any arguments which they might make.

That's true. Sometimes this is a worse effect of certain videos than others, though. Maybe this one was particularly bad.

I already thought the Leave Camp was on some bullsh!t (like a Tory saying Obama's opinion on trade deals "doesn't matter" when Obama said a trade deal if they leave will not come quickly, and everything Boris Johnson says).

He might have been saying that, politically, it's not good for the Stay Camp. I was in Mexico shortly after that, and a lot of the people (>~70%) were British. All of the ones that I talked to were pretty apolitical, but they were almost all immensely p!ssed off by Obama saying that, and it pushed them more towards the Leave camp. At least five times when my sister and I said we were from America the person just opened with 'your President is a fvcking wanker.' Especially military veterans, who considered Afghanistan and Iraq to be American wars that Britain supported heavily because they saw Americans as strong allies. In their eyes, they fought for America, but America's president pretty much spat in their face and casually revoked the 'special ally' position which they bled for.

Honestly, that was probably one of Obama's sh!ttiest moments, and I'm not usually an Obama basher.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,100
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6/21/2016 3:20:42 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 3:12:44 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:58:26 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:45:40 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:42:02 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:38:58 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:28:59 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:21:45 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/20/2016 8:36:33 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Since whenever John Oliver does something on a big political issue, someone posts the link to the video in this forum - I thought I'd do it today.

He provides background for those who are unaware of the situation and referendum. I'm interested in hearing the thoughts for this video.

(In direct responses to the OP, add an "s" to the end of "http".)

The problem with this is that he doesn't show that the claims are 'bullsh!t', just exaggerated.

Which is a good sign of bullsh!t.

No. 'Bullsh!t' implies false, not exaggerated. If I claim to have stabbed five people to death, and it turns out that one died of unrelated wounds, that doesn't mean that I haven't stabbed four people. The claim is exaggerated.

I mean...that claim is also false...

...

But does that undermine me using that claim to show that I have stabbed numerous people? That is what Oliver is implying. That because he found a few regulations on that pillow list which don't apply, he can dismiss the entire argument, instead of saying 'oh, it's actually only this many' and continuing to engage regulation issues. It's designed to go straight to the limbic brain, so that the person associates the speaker with 'untrustworthy' and becomes hardened to any arguments which they might make.

That's true. Sometimes this is a worse effect of certain videos than others, though. Maybe this one was particularly bad.

I already thought the Leave Camp was on some bullsh!t (like a Tory saying Obama's opinion on trade deals "doesn't matter" when Obama said a trade deal if they leave will not come quickly, and everything Boris Johnson says).

He might have been saying that, politically, it's not good for the Stay Camp. I was in Mexico shortly after that, and a lot of the people (>~70%) were British. All of the ones that I talked to were pretty apolitical, but they were almost all immensely p!ssed off by Obama saying that, and it pushed them more towards the Leave camp. At least five times when my sister and I said we were from America the person just opened with 'your President is a fvcking wanker.' Especially military veterans, who considered Afghanistan and Iraq to be American wars that Britain supported heavily because they saw Americans as strong allies. In their eyes, they fought for America, but America's president pretty much spat in their face and casually revoked the 'special ally' position which they bled for.

Honestly, that was probably one of Obama's sh!ttiest moments, and I'm not usually an Obama basher.

It was a shitty thing to say straightforward in that way, but logistically what he said made sense. No one in their right mind would make a deal with a country that has 15% the GDP of another potential partner, when that other partner is the near-entirety of Europe.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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6/21/2016 3:25:57 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 3:20:42 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 3:12:44 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:58:26 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:45:40 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

...

But does that undermine me using that claim to show that I have stabbed numerous people? That is what Oliver is implying. That because he found a few regulations on that pillow list which don't apply, he can dismiss the entire argument, instead of saying 'oh, it's actually only this many' and continuing to engage regulation issues. It's designed to go straight to the limbic brain, so that the person associates the speaker with 'untrustworthy' and becomes hardened to any arguments which they might make.

That's true. Sometimes this is a worse effect of certain videos than others, though. Maybe this one was particularly bad.

I already thought the Leave Camp was on some bullsh!t (like a Tory saying Obama's opinion on trade deals "doesn't matter" when Obama said a trade deal if they leave will not come quickly, and everything Boris Johnson says).

He might have been saying that, politically, it's not good for the Stay Camp. I was in Mexico shortly after that, and a lot of the people (>~70%) were British. All of the ones that I talked to were pretty apolitical, but they were almost all immensely p!ssed off by Obama saying that, and it pushed them more towards the Leave camp. At least five times when my sister and I said we were from America the person just opened with 'your President is a fvcking wanker.' Especially military veterans, who considered Afghanistan and Iraq to be American wars that Britain supported heavily because they saw Americans as strong allies. In their eyes, they fought for America, but America's president pretty much spat in their face and casually revoked the 'special ally' position which they bled for.

Honestly, that was probably one of Obama's sh!ttiest moments, and I'm not usually an Obama basher.

It was a shitty thing to say straightforward in that way, but logistically what he said made sense. No one in their right mind would make a deal with a country that has 15% the GDP of another potential partner, when that other partner is the near-entirety of Europe.

Europe is almost entirely dependent on us for their geopolitical security through NATO. We would be setting the terms, not them. They have nothing to leverage us with that wouldn't end up in some sort of self-inflicted injury. We're also the largest consumer market in the world (well over three times as big as China, which is the runner-up), so that would make it even more stupid to injure trade.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,100
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6/21/2016 3:27:28 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 3:25:57 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/21/2016 3:20:42 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 3:12:44 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:58:26 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:45:40 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

...

But does that undermine me using that claim to show that I have stabbed numerous people? That is what Oliver is implying. That because he found a few regulations on that pillow list which don't apply, he can dismiss the entire argument, instead of saying 'oh, it's actually only this many' and continuing to engage regulation issues. It's designed to go straight to the limbic brain, so that the person associates the speaker with 'untrustworthy' and becomes hardened to any arguments which they might make.

That's true. Sometimes this is a worse effect of certain videos than others, though. Maybe this one was particularly bad.

I already thought the Leave Camp was on some bullsh!t (like a Tory saying Obama's opinion on trade deals "doesn't matter" when Obama said a trade deal if they leave will not come quickly, and everything Boris Johnson says).

He might have been saying that, politically, it's not good for the Stay Camp. I was in Mexico shortly after that, and a lot of the people (>~70%) were British. All of the ones that I talked to were pretty apolitical, but they were almost all immensely p!ssed off by Obama saying that, and it pushed them more towards the Leave camp. At least five times when my sister and I said we were from America the person just opened with 'your President is a fvcking wanker.' Especially military veterans, who considered Afghanistan and Iraq to be American wars that Britain supported heavily because they saw Americans as strong allies. In their eyes, they fought for America, but America's president pretty much spat in their face and casually revoked the 'special ally' position which they bled for.

Honestly, that was probably one of Obama's sh!ttiest moments, and I'm not usually an Obama basher.

It was a shitty thing to say straightforward in that way, but logistically what he said made sense. No one in their right mind would make a deal with a country that has 15% the GDP of another potential partner, when that other partner is the near-entirety of Europe.

Europe is almost entirely dependent on us for their geopolitical security through NATO. We would be setting the terms, not them. They have nothing to leverage us with that wouldn't end up in some sort of self-inflicted injury. We're also the largest consumer market in the world (well over three times as big as China, which is the runner-up), so that would make it even more stupid to injure trade.

We would also be setting terms with the UK if they left - even more so than the EU.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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6/21/2016 3:31:16 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 3:27:28 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 3:25:57 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/21/2016 3:20:42 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 3:12:44 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:58:26 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:45:40 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

...

But does that undermine me using that claim to show that I have stabbed numerous people? That is what Oliver is implying. That because he found a few regulations on that pillow list which don't apply, he can dismiss the entire argument, instead of saying 'oh, it's actually only this many' and continuing to engage regulation issues. It's designed to go straight to the limbic brain, so that the person associates the speaker with 'untrustworthy' and becomes hardened to any arguments which they might make.

That's true. Sometimes this is a worse effect of certain videos than others, though. Maybe this one was particularly bad.

I already thought the Leave Camp was on some bullsh!t (like a Tory saying Obama's opinion on trade deals "doesn't matter" when Obama said a trade deal if they leave will not come quickly, and everything Boris Johnson says).

He might have been saying that, politically, it's not good for the Stay Camp. I was in Mexico shortly after that, and a lot of the people (>~70%) were British. All of the ones that I talked to were pretty apolitical, but they were almost all immensely p!ssed off by Obama saying that, and it pushed them more towards the Leave camp. At least five times when my sister and I said we were from America the person just opened with 'your President is a fvcking wanker.' Especially military veterans, who considered Afghanistan and Iraq to be American wars that Britain supported heavily because they saw Americans as strong allies. In their eyes, they fought for America, but America's president pretty much spat in their face and casually revoked the 'special ally' position which they bled for.

Honestly, that was probably one of Obama's sh!ttiest moments, and I'm not usually an Obama basher.

It was a shitty thing to say straightforward in that way, but logistically what he said made sense. No one in their right mind would make a deal with a country that has 15% the GDP of another potential partner, when that other partner is the near-entirety of Europe.

Europe is almost entirely dependent on us for their geopolitical security through NATO. We would be setting the terms, not them. They have nothing to leverage us with that wouldn't end up in some sort of self-inflicted injury. We're also the largest consumer market in the world (well over three times as big as China, which is the runner-up), so that would make it even more stupid to injure trade.

We would also be setting terms with the UK if they left - even more so than the EU.

Exactly. In fact, the more that the EU breaks up, the more of a negotiating bonus that we have. As long as NATO remains intact, we can maintain a geopolitical bloc while also increasing our own economic influence. Which is why part of me thinks that maybe Obama was being a chessmaster and trying to influence the BREXIT referendum towards leave, but that will always just be speculation.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,241
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6/21/2016 5:44:23 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 3:31:16 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

Exactly. In fact, the more that the EU breaks up, the more of a negotiating bonus that we have. As long as NATO remains intact, we can maintain a geopolitical bloc while also increasing our own economic influence. Which is why part of me thinks that maybe Obama was being a chessmaster and trying to influence the BREXIT referendum towards leave, but that will always just be speculation.

Lol chessmaster? His agenda is not that far sighted. He wants the issue of problematic immigrants to go away so that Hillary can defeat Trump. It's not complicated.

Also, if BREXIT were to fail, I think it would be very interesting comeuppance for the UK as a Nation that once had an empire spanning the globe is now officially reduced to a semblance of a colony under the rule of the EU elites....