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Immigrant tries to grab gun to shoot trump.

YYW
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6/20/2016 11:45:25 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 11:43:21 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
Breaking news.

http://www.bbc.com...

It did read as if he had a few screws loose :/

But there is literally no excuse whatsoever.

He should spend the rest of his life in prison.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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6/21/2016 12:24:24 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 12:08:00 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
What is the crime for attempted murder against a civilian?

As the name suggests, attempted murder.
Tsar of DDO
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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6/21/2016 1:39:50 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 12:24:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:08:00 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
What is the crime for attempted murder against a civilian?

As the name suggests, attempted murder.

That should be "what is the punishment," that is what I was going for.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
YYW
Posts: 36,394
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6/21/2016 1:43:03 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 1:39:50 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:24:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:08:00 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
What is the crime for attempted murder against a civilian?

As the name suggests, attempted murder.

That should be "what is the punishment," that is what I was going for.

Depends on the circumstances. The attempted premeditated murder of another person... could be as low as 5 or as high as 20. Could also be probation, if a plea deal was struck. Lot of range.
Tsar of DDO
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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6/21/2016 1:46:57 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 1:43:03 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:39:50 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:24:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:08:00 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
What is the crime for attempted murder against a civilian?

As the name suggests, attempted murder.

That should be "what is the punishment," that is what I was going for.

Depends on the circumstances. The attempted premeditated murder of another person... could be as low as 5 or as high as 20. Could also be probation, if a plea deal was struck. Lot of range.

Shouldn't attempted murder of Trump be the same as attempted murder of another US citizen? Surely we don't want to create or extend a legal precedent that some lives are more valuable than others, do we?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
YYW
Posts: 36,394
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6/21/2016 1:47:53 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 1:46:57 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:43:03 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:39:50 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:24:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:08:00 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
What is the crime for attempted murder against a civilian?

As the name suggests, attempted murder.

That should be "what is the punishment," that is what I was going for.

Depends on the circumstances. The attempted premeditated murder of another person... could be as low as 5 or as high as 20. Could also be probation, if a plea deal was struck. Lot of range.

Shouldn't attempted murder of Trump be the same as attempted murder of another US citizen?

No. Trump isn't just another US citizen. He is the presumptive nominee of the Republican party.

Surely we don't want to create or extend a legal precedent that some lives are more valuable than others, do we?

We already do that.
Tsar of DDO
xus00HAY
Posts: 1,395
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6/21/2016 1:49:30 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
The punishment is life in prison. Back when America was great, it may have been the death penalty. Maybe we should bring back the death penalty, it was a deterrent . Most people used to be too afraid to commit murder because of what would happen to them if they got caught. Maybe this would stop all those suicide bombings.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,333
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6/21/2016 1:53:54 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 1:47:53 AM, YYW wrote:

Surely we don't want to create or extend a legal precedent that some lives are more valuable than others, do we?

We already do that.

Burn.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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6/21/2016 2:00:50 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 1:47:53 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:46:57 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:43:03 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:39:50 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:24:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:08:00 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
What is the crime for attempted murder against a civilian?

As the name suggests, attempted murder.

That should be "what is the punishment," that is what I was going for.

Depends on the circumstances. The attempted premeditated murder of another person... could be as low as 5 or as high as 20. Could also be probation, if a plea deal was struck. Lot of range.

Shouldn't attempted murder of Trump be the same as attempted murder of another US citizen?

No. Trump isn't just another US citizen. He is the presumptive nominee of the Republican party.

Surely we don't want to create or extend a legal precedent that some lives are more valuable than others, do we?

We already do that.

The presumptive nominee gets no more legal protection that anyone else. He gets more physical security, and that is why this "threat" was not much trouble (I give lots of credit to our secret service). He will not be getting live in prison, and no case like this would. It may make it past first-degree, but that is a reach. With that, yea, 10 years, 15 top.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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6/21/2016 2:00:54 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 1:47:53 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:46:57 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:43:03 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:39:50 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:24:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:08:00 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
What is the crime for attempted murder against a civilian?

As the name suggests, attempted murder.

That should be "what is the punishment," that is what I was going for.

Depends on the circumstances. The attempted premeditated murder of another person... could be as low as 5 or as high as 20. Could also be probation, if a plea deal was struck. Lot of range.

Shouldn't attempted murder of Trump be the same as attempted murder of another US citizen?

No. Trump isn't just another US citizen. He is the presumptive nominee of the Republican party.

That doesn't make his life any more or less valuable than any other.


Surely we don't want to create or extend a legal precedent that some lives are more valuable than others, do we?

We already do that.

Which is why I said "or extend..." If we say that "some lives are worth more." Then that difference in value has to be determined. Any determination will be done by people (either in a case by case basis, or by rules created by people). This allows for manipulation and bigotry. For examples, if someone gets in control of that and says "Blacks are not as productive in society as whites, so their lives are worth less and any crimes against them have only half the punishment." Or if someone says, "Gay people do not regularly reproduce on the same level as straight people, so they are not worth as much to the future of society, so murdering them is only a couple years in prison."

This is why every life must be worth the same and not have an impact on the punishment of a crime.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
YYW
Posts: 36,394
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6/21/2016 2:28:28 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 2:00:50 AM, TBR wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:47:53 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:46:57 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:43:03 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:39:50 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:24:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:08:00 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
What is the crime for attempted murder against a civilian?

As the name suggests, attempted murder.

That should be "what is the punishment," that is what I was going for.

Depends on the circumstances. The attempted premeditated murder of another person... could be as low as 5 or as high as 20. Could also be probation, if a plea deal was struck. Lot of range.

Shouldn't attempted murder of Trump be the same as attempted murder of another US citizen?

No. Trump isn't just another US citizen. He is the presumptive nominee of the Republican party.

Surely we don't want to create or extend a legal precedent that some lives are more valuable than others, do we?

We already do that.

The presumptive nominee gets no more legal protection that anyone else.

Actually he does. Want to know the difference? Look at sentencing differences between garden variety attempted murder, and attempted murder of political candidates.

He gets more physical security, and that is why this "threat" was not much trouble (I give lots of credit to our secret service). He will not be getting live in prison, and no case like this would. It may make it past first-degree, but that is a reach. With that, yea, 10 years, 15 top.

Attempted murder doesn't really get broken down into degrees. Either you intended (i.e. the thing that makes it first degree) or you didn't intend it. If you didn't intend to kill someone, then you can't be charged with attempted murder.

If what you did just put someone's life in danger, and you knew of the risk but didn't intend that they die, that's just reckless endangerment.
Tsar of DDO
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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6/21/2016 2:35:48 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 2:28:28 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:00:50 AM, TBR wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:47:53 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:46:57 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:43:03 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:39:50 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:24:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:08:00 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
What is the crime for attempted murder against a civilian?

As the name suggests, attempted murder.

That should be "what is the punishment," that is what I was going for.

Depends on the circumstances. The attempted premeditated murder of another person... could be as low as 5 or as high as 20. Could also be probation, if a plea deal was struck. Lot of range.

Shouldn't attempted murder of Trump be the same as attempted murder of another US citizen?

No. Trump isn't just another US citizen. He is the presumptive nominee of the Republican party.

Surely we don't want to create or extend a legal precedent that some lives are more valuable than others, do we?

We already do that.

The presumptive nominee gets no more legal protection that anyone else.

Actually he does. Want to know the difference? Look at sentencing differences between garden variety attempted murder, and attempted murder of political candidates.

Yea, I am not going to start-up an argument of law with you, but as best I know (or can find) there is no difference in charges or sentencing.


He gets more physical security, and that is why this "threat" was not much trouble (I give lots of credit to our secret service). He will not be getting live in prison, and no case like this would. It may make it past first-degree, but that is a reach. With that, yea, 10 years, 15 top.

Attempted murder doesn't really get broken down into degrees. Either you intended (i.e. the thing that makes it first degree) or you didn't intend it. If you didn't intend to kill someone, then you can't be charged with attempted murder.

Like I said, I know this is your area, but it sure as hell does have dgrees. There is first and second degree.


If what you did just put someone's life in danger, and you knew of the risk but didn't intend that they die, that's just reckless endangerment.

Yup. Reckless endangerment is very different.

Like I said, this is your wheelhouse, but I think you are doing some Trumping. No problem, I don't want to interfere with that, but the guy is just a guy at this point, and the threat was a very pedestrian threat. What should be the lead is the SS does what it does, and they do it well. I really do like those guys. I hate Trump with all my heart, but I will not accept pot-shots at anyone just because they are an a$$ and happen to have snowed 40% of the GOP.
YYW
Posts: 36,394
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6/21/2016 2:48:21 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 2:35:48 AM, TBR wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:28:28 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:00:50 AM, TBR wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:47:53 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:46:57 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:43:03 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:39:50 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:24:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:08:00 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
What is the crime for attempted murder against a civilian?

As the name suggests, attempted murder.

That should be "what is the punishment," that is what I was going for.

Depends on the circumstances. The attempted premeditated murder of another person... could be as low as 5 or as high as 20. Could also be probation, if a plea deal was struck. Lot of range.

Shouldn't attempted murder of Trump be the same as attempted murder of another US citizen?

No. Trump isn't just another US citizen. He is the presumptive nominee of the Republican party.

Surely we don't want to create or extend a legal precedent that some lives are more valuable than others, do we?

We already do that.

The presumptive nominee gets no more legal protection that anyone else.

Actually he does. Want to know the difference? Look at sentencing differences between garden variety attempted murder, and attempted murder of political candidates.

Yea, I am not going to start-up an argument of law with you, but as best I know (or can find) there is no difference in charges or sentencing.

The recommendation that the prosecutor gave to the judge would be different. We can talk about why if you'd like.

He gets more physical security, and that is why this "threat" was not much trouble (I give lots of credit to our secret service). He will not be getting live in prison, and no case like this would. It may make it past first-degree, but that is a reach. With that, yea, 10 years, 15 top.

Attempted murder doesn't really get broken down into degrees. Either you intended (i.e. the thing that makes it first degree) or you didn't intend it. If you didn't intend to kill someone, then you can't be charged with attempted murder.

Like I said, I know this is your area, but it sure as hell does have dgrees. There is first and second degree.

Nope. There are no degrees of attempts.

If what you did just put someone's life in danger, and you knew of the risk but didn't intend that they die, that's just reckless endangerment.

Yup. Reckless endangerment is very different.

Not a degree.

Like I said, this is your wheelhouse, but I think you are doing some Trumping. No problem, I don't want to interfere with that, but the guy is just a guy at this point, and the threat was a very pedestrian threat. What should be the lead is the SS does what it does, and they do it well. I really do like those guys. I hate Trump with all my heart, but I will not accept pot-shots at anyone just because they are an a$$ and happen to have snowed 40% of the GOP.
Tsar of DDO
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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6/21/2016 2:51:56 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 2:48:21 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:35:48 AM, TBR wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:28:28 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:00:50 AM, TBR wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:47:53 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:46:57 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:43:03 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:39:50 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:24:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:08:00 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
What is the crime for attempted murder against a civilian?

As the name suggests, attempted murder.

That should be "what is the punishment," that is what I was going for.

Depends on the circumstances. The attempted premeditated murder of another person... could be as low as 5 or as high as 20. Could also be probation, if a plea deal was struck. Lot of range.

Shouldn't attempted murder of Trump be the same as attempted murder of another US citizen?

No. Trump isn't just another US citizen. He is the presumptive nominee of the Republican party.

Surely we don't want to create or extend a legal precedent that some lives are more valuable than others, do we?

We already do that.

The presumptive nominee gets no more legal protection that anyone else.

Actually he does. Want to know the difference? Look at sentencing differences between garden variety attempted murder, and attempted murder of political candidates.

Yea, I am not going to start-up an argument of law with you, but as best I know (or can find) there is no difference in charges or sentencing.

The recommendation that the prosecutor gave to the judge would be different. We can talk about why if you'd like.

He gets more physical security, and that is why this "threat" was not much trouble (I give lots of credit to our secret service). He will not be getting live in prison, and no case like this would. It may make it past first-degree, but that is a reach. With that, yea, 10 years, 15 top.

Attempted murder doesn't really get broken down into degrees. Either you intended (i.e. the thing that makes it first degree) or you didn't intend it. If you didn't intend to kill someone, then you can't be charged with attempted murder.

Like I said, I know this is your area, but it sure as hell does have dgrees. There is first and second degree.

Nope. There are no degrees of attempts.

If what you did just put someone's life in danger, and you knew of the risk but didn't intend that they die, that's just reckless endangerment.

Yup. Reckless endangerment is very different.

Not a degree.

Like I said, this is your wheelhouse, but I think you are doing some Trumping. No problem, I don't want to interfere with that, but the guy is just a guy at this point, and the threat was a very pedestrian threat. What should be the lead is the SS does what it does, and they do it well. I really do like those guys. I hate Trump with all my heart, but I will not accept pot-shots at anyone just because they are an a$$ and happen to have snowed 40% of the GOP.

Not trying to make a big deal out of this, but...

Penalties

Most jurisdictions have degrees of attempted murder charges. A first-degree attempted murder charge requires premeditation or a willful act; a second-degree attempted murder charge is any other act that is not planned or deliberate.

First-degree attempted murder carries greater penalties and often means a life sentence with the possibility of parole. Offenders typically spend at least 10 years in prison, although mandatory minimum sentences for attempting to murder a public official may be 10 to 15 years. Federal laws for attempting to kill a member of Congress or other federal official impose penalties ranging from 70 to 162 months.

Second-degree attempted murder penalties usually range from five years to 15 years in many states, depending on whether serious injury was inflicted. Sentences can be for longer periods if a firearm was used or if the crime was committed by a gang member or at the direction of a criminal gang. A prior criminal record will also enhance a sentence, even doubling it in states with "three strikes" laws, such as California.


http://www.attorneys.com...

And the only reason I recalled of the top of my head is, I have a friend who is now a erisa attorney who practice criminal law for a long time. We have lots of good conversations about his old cases NOT about ERISA planing ;)
YYW
Posts: 36,394
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6/21/2016 2:55:41 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 2:51:56 AM, TBR wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:48:21 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:35:48 AM, TBR wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:28:28 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:00:50 AM, TBR wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:47:53 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:46:57 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:43:03 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:39:50 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:24:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:08:00 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
What is the crime for attempted murder against a civilian?

As the name suggests, attempted murder.

That should be "what is the punishment," that is what I was going for.

Depends on the circumstances. The attempted premeditated murder of another person... could be as low as 5 or as high as 20. Could also be probation, if a plea deal was struck. Lot of range.

Shouldn't attempted murder of Trump be the same as attempted murder of another US citizen?

No. Trump isn't just another US citizen. He is the presumptive nominee of the Republican party.

Surely we don't want to create or extend a legal precedent that some lives are more valuable than others, do we?

We already do that.

The presumptive nominee gets no more legal protection that anyone else.

Actually he does. Want to know the difference? Look at sentencing differences between garden variety attempted murder, and attempted murder of political candidates.

Yea, I am not going to start-up an argument of law with you, but as best I know (or can find) there is no difference in charges or sentencing.

The recommendation that the prosecutor gave to the judge would be different. We can talk about why if you'd like.

He gets more physical security, and that is why this "threat" was not much trouble (I give lots of credit to our secret service). He will not be getting live in prison, and no case like this would. It may make it past first-degree, but that is a reach. With that, yea, 10 years, 15 top.

Attempted murder doesn't really get broken down into degrees. Either you intended (i.e. the thing that makes it first degree) or you didn't intend it. If you didn't intend to kill someone, then you can't be charged with attempted murder.

Like I said, I know this is your area, but it sure as hell does have dgrees. There is first and second degree.

Nope. There are no degrees of attempts.

If what you did just put someone's life in danger, and you knew of the risk but didn't intend that they die, that's just reckless endangerment.

Yup. Reckless endangerment is very different.

Not a degree.

Like I said, this is your wheelhouse, but I think you are doing some Trumping. No problem, I don't want to interfere with that, but the guy is just a guy at this point, and the threat was a very pedestrian threat. What should be the lead is the SS does what it does, and they do it well. I really do like those guys. I hate Trump with all my heart, but I will not accept pot-shots at anyone just because they are an a$$ and happen to have snowed 40% of the GOP.

Not trying to make a big deal out of this, but...

Penalties

Most jurisdictions have degrees of attempted murder charges. A first-degree attempted murder charge requires premeditation or a willful act; a second-degree attempted murder charge is any other act that is not planned or deliberate.

First-degree attempted murder carries greater penalties and often means a life sentence with the possibility of parole. Offenders typically spend at least 10 years in prison, although mandatory minimum sentences for attempting to murder a public official may be 10 to 15 years. Federal laws for attempting to kill a member of Congress or other federal official impose penalties ranging from 70 to 162 months.

Second-degree attempted murder penalties usually range from five years to 15 years in many states, depending on whether serious injury was inflicted. Sentences can be for longer periods if a firearm was used or if the crime was committed by a gang member or at the direction of a criminal gang. A prior criminal record will also enhance a sentence, even doubling it in states with "three strikes" laws, such as California.


http://www.attorneys.com...

And the only reason I recalled of the top of my head is, I have a friend who is now a erisa attorney who practice criminal law for a long time. We have lots of good conversations about his old cases NOT about ERISA planing ;)

That's not the common law rule.
Tsar of DDO
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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6/21/2016 2:56:15 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 11:43:21 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
Breaking news.

http://www.bbc.com...

It did read as if he had a few screws loose :/

But there is literally no excuse whatsoever.

It's okay to be nuts and/or violent...as long as you're a Liberal...
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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6/21/2016 2:58:35 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 1:39:50 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:24:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:08:00 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
What is the crime for attempted murder against a civilian?

As the name suggests, attempted murder.

That should be "what is the punishment," that is what I was going for.

I think it should be the death penalty or life. Why are people rewarded just for not being good at the crime they attempted? Attempted anything should have the same punishment as actual anything.

The actions should be judged not the results
Cryo
Posts: 202
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6/21/2016 7:50:15 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 2:58:35 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:39:50 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:24:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:08:00 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
What is the crime for attempted murder against a civilian?

As the name suggests, attempted murder.

That should be "what is the punishment," that is what I was going for.

I think it should be the death penalty or life. Why are people rewarded just for not being good at the crime they attempted? Attempted anything should have the same punishment as actual anything.

The actions should be judged not the results

Life is one thing, but I don't know about the death penalty. I think the punishment should fit the crime, and even if someone acted with the express intent to murder someone, if they end up actually not harming anyone, I think death is a bit much.

I wouldn't call it being "rewarded just for not being good at the crime they attempted" because I think there is a distinction to be made between attempting something and actually accomplishing it, even if the thing you were attempting was murder.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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6/21/2016 7:52:57 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 7:50:15 AM, Cryo wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:58:35 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:39:50 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:24:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:08:00 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
What is the crime for attempted murder against a civilian?

As the name suggests, attempted murder.

That should be "what is the punishment," that is what I was going for.

I think it should be the death penalty or life. Why are people rewarded just for not being good at the crime they attempted? Attempted anything should have the same punishment as actual anything.

The actions should be judged not the results

Life is one thing, but I don't know about the death penalty. I think the punishment should fit the crime, and even if someone acted with the express intent to murder someone, if they end up actually not harming anyone, I think death is a bit much.

I wouldn't call it being "rewarded just for not being good at the crime they attempted" because I think there is a distinction to be made between attempting something and actually accomplishing it, even if the thing you were attempting was murder.

You still had taken the same actions as a killer. The difference between life and death can be an inch to the right or left with a bullet. Does an attempted murderer not pose the same exact threat to society as a murderer, despite shooting one inch further to the left or right?
Cryo
Posts: 202
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6/21/2016 8:14:45 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 7:52:57 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 6/21/2016 7:50:15 AM, Cryo wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:58:35 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:39:50 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:24:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:08:00 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
What is the crime for attempted murder against a civilian?

As the name suggests, attempted murder.

That should be "what is the punishment," that is what I was going for.

I think it should be the death penalty or life. Why are people rewarded just for not being good at the crime they attempted? Attempted anything should have the same punishment as actual anything.

The actions should be judged not the results

Life is one thing, but I don't know about the death penalty. I think the punishment should fit the crime, and even if someone acted with the express intent to murder someone, if they end up actually not harming anyone, I think death is a bit much.

I wouldn't call it being "rewarded just for not being good at the crime they attempted" because I think there is a distinction to be made between attempting something and actually accomplishing it, even if the thing you were attempting was murder.

You still had taken the same actions as a killer. The difference between life and death can be an inch to the right or left with a bullet. Does an attempted murderer not pose the same exact threat to society as a murderer, despite shooting one inch further to the left or right?

The same threat, sure, but that's only because threats are based on intent and capability. When judging an action though, I think the actual consequences of that action should be considered as well as the intent. We don't judge people purely based off of the threat they pose. The person that is a threat, is not as bad as the person who posed a threat and also actually managed to follow through with their threat. They're both threats, they're both bad, but we consider the actual damage done as well when passing judgment.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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6/21/2016 10:07:10 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
The same threat, sure, but that's only because threats are based on intent and capability. When judging an action though, I think the actual consequences of that action should be considered as well as the intent. We don't judge people purely based off of the threat they pose. The person that is a threat, is not as bad as the person who posed a threat and also actually managed to follow through with their threat. They're both threats, they're both bad, but we consider the actual damage done as well when passing judgment.

I think we just have different theories of justice, mine is not punishment centered. I just want society to be safe, if that involves removing dangerous elements, fine. If it means rehabilitation, fine.
tejretics
Posts: 6,094
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6/21/2016 12:25:17 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 11:45:25 PM, YYW wrote:
He should spend the rest of his life in prison.

I thought you supported life imprisonment only for serial killers or people who commit what are currently considered capital crimes?

http://www.debate.org...

This was just attempted murder. It's possible to rehabilitate. It's possible to change social conditions in this case. The only purposes of punishment are rehabilitation/incapacitation and deterrence.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
YYW
Posts: 36,394
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6/21/2016 1:26:44 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 12:25:17 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/20/2016 11:45:25 PM, YYW wrote:
He should spend the rest of his life in prison.

I thought you supported life imprisonment only for serial killers or people who commit what are currently considered capital crimes?

http://www.debate.org...

This was just attempted murder. It's possible to rehabilitate. It's possible to change social conditions in this case. The only purposes of punishment are rehabilitation/incapacitation and deterrence.

This was not just attempted murder. Attempted assassination of a political leader is qualitatively different than simple attempted murder. The former simply is an effort to end the life of another that was unsuccessful. The latter is an attempt to destabilize a political system. To claim that the attempted assassination of a political leader is indistinguishable from mere attempted murder is to indulge in sheer fantasy, and any arguments to that end advocated here are absurd. The reason for that is simple: the stability of how our (read: the United States) political power structures are transitioned is not at stake with just a mere attempted murder.

I don't care about rehabilitation when we're dealing with the attempted assassination of a political leader. I care about preserving the structure of peacefully transitioning power, as should everyone else. Our democratic system is vastly more important than one individual's "being rehabilitated." And, frankly, if you are willing to attempt to assassinate a political leader, you are saying that you don't buy into the system from the top down. The person who did that should spend the rest of his life in prison.

Generally, I do not favor lengthy prison sentences, and I do not support the death penalty in any context, but this is one of those rare exceptions.
Tsar of DDO
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,333
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6/21/2016 1:29:11 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 1:26:44 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/21/2016 12:25:17 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/20/2016 11:45:25 PM, YYW wrote:
He should spend the rest of his life in prison.

I thought you supported life imprisonment only for serial killers or people who commit what are currently considered capital crimes?

http://www.debate.org...

This was just attempted murder. It's possible to rehabilitate. It's possible to change social conditions in this case. The only purposes of punishment are rehabilitation/incapacitation and deterrence.

This was not just attempted murder. Attempted assassination of a political leader is qualitatively different than simple attempted murder. The former simply is an effort to end the life of another that was unsuccessful. The latter is an attempt to destabilize a political system. To claim that the attempted assassination of a political leader is indistinguishable from mere attempted murder is to indulge in sheer fantasy, and any arguments to that end advocated here are absurd. The reason for that is simple: the stability of how our (read: the United States) political power structures are transitioned is not at stake with just a mere attempted murder.

I don't care about rehabilitation when we're dealing with the attempted assassination of a political leader. I care about preserving the structure of peacefully transitioning power, as should everyone else. Our democratic system is vastly more important than one individual's "being rehabilitated." And, frankly, if you are willing to attempt to assassinate a political leader, you are saying that you don't buy into the system from the top down. The person who did that should spend the rest of his life in prison.

Generally, I do not favor lengthy prison sentences, and I do not support the death penalty in any context, but this is one of those rare exceptions.

I can sort of see how it's not simple murder...you have incitement to riots...possible treason(does treason apply for immigrants?)....oh and don't forget denial of free speech lol....
tejretics
Posts: 6,094
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6/21/2016 1:29:43 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 1:26:44 PM, YYW wrote:

I agree with you that this is worse than attempted murder.

But why do we punish? To prevent further harm from occurring. What further harm will occur by NOT giving him life imprisonment?
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,333
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6/21/2016 1:31:08 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 1:29:43 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/21/2016 1:26:44 PM, YYW wrote:

I agree with you that this is worse than attempted murder.

But why do we punish? To prevent further harm from occurring. What further harm will occur by NOT giving him life imprisonment?

It's a safety issue, not a punishment issue.