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Who is a worse pick? Pence or Kaine?

1harderthanyouthink
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7/23/2016 3:07:26 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Discuss.

I think that Hillary actually managed to make a worse choice. It gains nobody, whereas Pence *might* encourage the further right to back Trump over Johnson, Kaine encourages the further left to support Stein or Johnson over Clinton.
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1harderthanyouthink
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7/23/2016 3:14:16 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Kaine is more likeable as a person, but I think the "safe" pick in a race where you have 40% of the vote is a bad pick.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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TBR
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7/23/2016 3:19:36 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 3:07:26 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Discuss.

I think that Hillary actually managed to make a worse choice. It gains nobody, whereas Pence *might* encourage the further right to back Trump over Johnson, Kaine encourages the further left to support Stein or Johnson over Clinton.

So bored. The campaign is working hard to put me to sleep.
1harderthanyouthink
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7/23/2016 3:24:09 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 3:19:36 AM, TBR wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:07:26 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Discuss.

I think that Hillary actually managed to make a worse choice. It gains nobody, whereas Pence *might* encourage the further right to back Trump over Johnson, Kaine encourages the further left to support Stein or Johnson over Clinton.

So bored. The campaign is working hard to put me to sleep.

And I think that's the issue. Clinton is boring, and Kaine is boring. Pence is boring. Johnson is boring. Stein has no political skill. Trump is...Trump.

It's gonna be a low turnout this year, don't you think?
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
imabench
Posts: 21,229
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7/23/2016 3:27:11 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Hillary has a problem trying to get white male supporters to her side, the same way Obama did back in 2008 when he first ran and raised a lot of eyebrows. Obama picked Biden to try to appeal to white men as a candidate, and Hillary looks like she is doing the same with Kaine as her VP..... Trump on the other hand already has a lot of white male voters behind him, in fact he seems to be banking on it at this point. What he needed to do was pick a VP who would help him get support from literally any minority, gays, women, blacks, hispanics, etc since he does poorly with all of them....... Pence though brings none of them to the table, and instead only tries to bing 'establishment' republicans to support trump, when a lot of them already would have due to Hillary bing the other option.

Virginia where Kaine hails from is a swing state Hillary would like to win since she already has an electoral advantage working for her. Pence though is from Indiana, which last I checked is safely republican, so in terms of electoral swing the VP pick brings with them, Hillary made the better pick in that department.

Pence also openly disagrees with Trump on many things, such as free trade with other countries, banning Muslim immigration, and the invasion of Iraq, which are a lot of things Trump campaigned on heavily to get supporters..... Picking Pence shoots himself in the foot on all of those issues, whereas Kaine and Hillary dont disagree on much as far as I can tell........ In terms of not disagreeing with your boss and making them look bad by disagreeing with them, Trump took a huge sh*t on this one while Hillary played it safe.

In the end, Hillary made the better pick, but this certainly isnt going to change the outcome of the election...... Both people went with 'safe' picks rather then balls-to-the-wall picks, which is the equivalent of the two of them playing poker and saying "Check" after the first 3 cards are dealt......... Hillary made the better pick, but it wont really effect much in my opinion
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TBR
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7/23/2016 3:29:57 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 3:24:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:19:36 AM, TBR wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:07:26 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Discuss.

I think that Hillary actually managed to make a worse choice. It gains nobody, whereas Pence *might* encourage the further right to back Trump over Johnson, Kaine encourages the further left to support Stein or Johnson over Clinton.

So bored. The campaign is working hard to put me to sleep.

And I think that's the issue. Clinton is boring, and Kaine is boring. Pence is boring. Johnson is boring. Stein has no political skill. Trump is...Trump.

It's gonna be a low turnout this year, don't you think?

Yea. Look, Clinton will win, but only because Trump is just that bad. They could have run any sane guy and had a race.
KendoRe2
Posts: 126
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7/23/2016 3:54:57 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
VP only matters when the president dies, which hasn't happened since 1963, or the 70s when Nixon had to resign
RookieApologist
Posts: 469
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7/23/2016 12:40:28 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 3:24:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:19:36 AM, TBR wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:07:26 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Discuss.

I think that Hillary actually managed to make a worse choice. It gains nobody, whereas Pence *might* encourage the further right to back Trump over Johnson, Kaine encourages the further left to support Stein or Johnson over Clinton.

So bored. The campaign is working hard to put me to sleep.

And I think that's the issue. Clinton is boring, and Kaine is boring. Pence is boring. Johnson is boring. Stein has no political skill. Trump is...Trump.

It's gonna be a low turnout this year, don't you think?

Not if the Republican primaries are any indication.

https://www.washingtonpost.com...
RookieApologist
Posts: 469
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7/23/2016 12:42:46 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 3:29:57 AM, TBR wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:24:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:19:36 AM, TBR wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:07:26 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Discuss.

I think that Hillary actually managed to make a worse choice. It gains nobody, whereas Pence *might* encourage the further right to back Trump over Johnson, Kaine encourages the further left to support Stein or Johnson over Clinton.

So bored. The campaign is working hard to put me to sleep.

And I think that's the issue. Clinton is boring, and Kaine is boring. Pence is boring. Johnson is boring. Stein has no political skill. Trump is...Trump.

It's gonna be a low turnout this year, don't you think?

Yea. Look, Clinton will win, but only because Trump is just that bad. They could have run any sane guy and won in a landslide.

FYP. So sad Trump is the best Republicans could do.
brontoraptor
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7/23/2016 1:18:50 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 12:40:28 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:24:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:19:36 AM, TBR wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:07:26 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Discuss.

I think that Hillary actually managed to make a worse choice. It gains nobody, whereas Pence *might* encourage the further right to back Trump over Johnson, Kaine encourages the further left to support Stein or Johnson over Clinton.

So bored. The campaign is working hard to put me to sleep.

And I think that's the issue. Clinton is boring, and Kaine is boring. Pence is boring. Johnson is boring. Stein has no political skill. Trump is...Trump.

It's gonna be a low turnout this year, don't you think?

Not if the Republican primaries are any indication.

https://www.washingtonpost.com...

+1
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

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000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/23/2016 2:14:12 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 3:07:26 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Discuss.

I think that Hillary actually managed to make a worse choice. It gains nobody, whereas Pence *might* encourage the further right to back Trump over Johnson, Kaine encourages the further left to support Stein or Johnson over Clinton.

lol I thought precisely the same thing at first. Not only is Kaine as boring as she is, but he has a history of accepting personal gifts from investors and lobbyists - which just makes the argument that she's corrupt more potent. However, I do buy the narrative that Hillary is disciplined and data driven in her campaign strategy. A recent pew poll shows that 85% of Sanders supporters will vote for Hillary Clinton (and 9% will vote for Trump) - this, mind you, is much larger than the amount of Hillary supporters that switched to Obama at this time of year in 2008. (https://www.washingtonpost.com... )

This probably won't change substantially and may even get better by November. She's trying to court Never-Trump Republicans and independents who want assurance that her ticket isn't too far to the left. And she also, frankly, wants someone who she's comfortable with (i.e. mirrors her goals, temperament, and public image). These considerations would point strongly to the Virginia senator.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
YYW
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7/23/2016 3:27:24 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 3:07:26 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Discuss.

I think that Hillary actually managed to make a worse choice. It gains nobody, whereas Pence *might* encourage the further right to back Trump over Johnson, Kaine encourages the further left to support Stein or Johnson over Clinton.

Pence, by far, is the worst pick. Aside from being a homophobic piece of trash (which he surely is), Pence has the intellectual capacity of Rick Perry with the temperament of Jeb Bush and the beliefs of Ted Cruz. Basically, Pence is a total stupid bitch.... but that is also why Trump picked him.

Trump picked pence for one reason: Party Unity. Trump hates pence. You can see it clearly in his body language, and compare it (though it's subtle) with how he treats anyone he likes (especially on stage) to anyone he doesn't. Trump is a good actor, but those slips... they're so plain and clear.

The reason Pence is a bad pick, though, is because of how obvious it was that Trump was just making a gesture to the Republican establishment. He got the dumbest, weakest, lowest energy contender of the non-presidential candidates to essentially get them to end the "never Trump" movement. Trump then went on to do exactly what he wanted to do.

The Republican party is pro-free trade, whereas Trump is anti-free trade and supports protectionism. The republican party is anti-gay marriage, whereas Trump is pro-gay marriage. The Republican party supports immigration reform and a path to citizenship, whereas Trump wants to round people up to deport them and build a wall. Trump is pro-union (though quiet about it), whereas the Republican party is decidedly anti-organized labor. The list goes on and on.

Trump is not a Republican, or, he is not the kind of Republican that has existed since McKinley. He is not a neocon, he is a socially apathetic to socially liberal nationalist--meaning he is diametrically opposed to everything Mike Pence has ever stood for, which is the real reason that Pence was such a bad pick. They will never work together. Trump wanted someone he can bully around (which I sympathize with). Pence is that guy, and he is a terrible human being.

Kaine is pretty non-offensive, though. He's got a modest political background and a lot of ground level experience with stuff. He's also kind of a socialite, very affable and generally well spoken. But his personality is bland, which is good for Hillary because she knows he won't outshine her. Kaine is also a white guy, which Hillary hopes will help her win white male votes... which she will need if she wants to win this election.

So, whereas Pence is going to create high drama and disfunction in the campaign because of what he is and the differences between him and Trump, Kaine might actually help Hilary get elected. It is possible that, on a demographic basis alone, Pence will help Trump too. But Idk.

Frankly, I was hoping for Chris Christie, and I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive Trump's son-in-law for his stupid objection to Christie. If Trump's son in law (Ivanka's husband) didn't have a criminal for a father, this wouldn't have been an issue.
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TBR
Posts: 9,991
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7/23/2016 4:26:19 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 3:27:24 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:07:26 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Discuss.

I think that Hillary actually managed to make a worse choice. It gains nobody, whereas Pence *might* encourage the further right to back Trump over Johnson, Kaine encourages the further left to support Stein or Johnson over Clinton.

Pence, by far, is the worst pick. Aside from being a homophobic piece of trash (which he surely is), Pence has the intellectual capacity of Rick Perry with the temperament of Jeb Bush and the beliefs of Ted Cruz. Basically, Pence is a total stupid bitch.... but that is also why Trump picked him.

Trump picked pence for one reason: Party Unity. Trump hates pence. You can see it clearly in his body language, and compare it (though it's subtle) with how he treats anyone he likes (especially on stage) to anyone he doesn't. Trump is a good actor, but those slips... they're so plain and clear.

The reason Pence is a bad pick, though, is because of how obvious it was that Trump was just making a gesture to the Republican establishment. He got the dumbest, weakest, lowest energy contender of the non-presidential candidates to essentially get them to end the "never Trump" movement. Trump then went on to do exactly what he wanted to do.

The Republican party is pro-free trade, whereas Trump is anti-free trade and supports protectionism. The republican party is anti-gay marriage, whereas Trump is pro-gay marriage. The Republican party supports immigration reform and a path to citizenship, whereas Trump wants to round people up to deport them and build a wall. Trump is pro-union (though quiet about it), whereas the Republican party is decidedly anti-organized labor. The list goes on and on.

Trump is not a Republican, or, he is not the kind of Republican that has existed since McKinley. He is not a neocon, he is a socially apathetic to socially liberal nationalist--meaning he is diametrically opposed to everything Mike Pence has ever stood for, which is the real reason that Pence was such a bad pick. They will never work together. Trump wanted someone he can bully around (which I sympathize with). Pence is that guy, and he is a terrible human being.

Kaine is pretty non-offensive, though. He's got a modest political background and a lot of ground level experience with stuff. He's also kind of a socialite, very affable and generally well spoken. But his personality is bland, which is good for Hillary because she knows he won't outshine her. Kaine is also a white guy, which Hillary hopes will help her win white male votes... which she will need if she wants to win this election.

So, whereas Pence is going to create high drama and disfunction in the campaign because of what he is and the differences between him and Trump, Kaine might actually help Hilary get elected. It is possible that, on a demographic basis alone, Pence will help Trump too. But Idk.

Frankly, I was hoping for Chris Christie, and I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive Trump's son-in-law for his stupid objection to Christie. If Trump's son in law (Ivanka's husband) didn't have a criminal for a father, this wouldn't have been an issue.

Don't forget Kaine is personally pro-life simply willing to "let it go".
RookieApologist
Posts: 469
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7/23/2016 4:31:57 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 3:27:24 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:07:26 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Discuss.

I think that Hillary actually managed to make a worse choice. It gains nobody, whereas Pence *might* encourage the further right to back Trump over Johnson, Kaine encourages the further left to support Stein or Johnson over Clinton.

Pence, by far, is the worst pick. Aside from being a homophobic piece of trash (which he surely is), Pence has the intellectual capacity of Rick Perry with the temperament of Jeb Bush and the beliefs of Ted Cruz. Basically, Pence is a total stupid bitch.... but that is also why Trump picked him.

Trump picked pence for one reason: Party Unity. Trump hates pence. You can see it clearly in his body language, and compare it (though it's subtle) with how he treats anyone he likes (especially on stage) to anyone he doesn't. Trump is a good actor, but those slips... they're so plain and clear.

The reason Pence is a bad pick, though, is because of how obvious it was that Trump was just making a gesture to the Republican establishment. He got the dumbest, weakest, lowest energy contender of the non-presidential candidates to essentially get them to end the "never Trump" movement. Trump then went on to do exactly what he wanted to do.

The Republican party is pro-free trade, whereas Trump is anti-free trade and supports protectionism. The republican party is anti-gay marriage, whereas Trump is pro-gay marriage. The Republican party supports immigration reform and a path to citizenship, whereas Trump wants to round people up to deport them and build a wall. Trump is pro-union (though quiet about it), whereas the Republican party is decidedly anti-organized labor. The list goes on and on.

Trump is not a Republican, or, he is not the kind of Republican that has existed since McKinley. He is not a neocon, he is a socially apathetic to socially liberal nationalist--meaning he is diametrically opposed to everything Mike Pence has ever stood for, which is the real reason that Pence was such a bad pick. They will never work together. Trump wanted someone he can bully around (which I sympathize with). Pence is that guy, and he is a terrible human being.

Kaine is pretty non-offensive, though. He's got a modest political background and a lot of ground level experience with stuff. He's also kind of a socialite, very affable and generally well spoken. But his personality is bland, which is good for Hillary because she knows he won't outshine her. Kaine is also a white guy, which Hillary hopes will help her win white male votes... which she will need if she wants to win this election.

So, whereas Pence is going to create high drama and disfunction in the campaign because of what he is and the differences between him and Trump, Kaine might actually help Hilary get elected. It is possible that, on a demographic basis alone, Pence will help Trump too. But Idk.

Frankly, I was hoping for Chris Christie, and I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive Trump's son-in-law for his stupid objection to Christie. If Trump's son in law (Ivanka's husband) didn't have a criminal for a father, this wouldn't have been an issue.

You seem utterly intolerant of anyone who doesn't share your views on homosexuality. Guess you won't tolerate anyone's intolerance?
RookieApologist
Posts: 469
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7/23/2016 4:34:04 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 3:27:24 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:07:26 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Discuss.

I think that Hillary actually managed to make a worse choice. It gains nobody, whereas Pence *might* encourage the further right to back Trump over Johnson, Kaine encourages the further left to support Stein or Johnson over Clinton.

Pence, by far, is the worst pick. Aside from being a homophobic piece of trash (which he surely is), Pence has the intellectual capacity of Rick Perry with the temperament of Jeb Bush and the beliefs of Ted Cruz. Basically, Pence is a total stupid bitch.... but that is also why Trump picked him.

Trump picked pence for one reason: Party Unity. Trump hates pence. You can see it clearly in his body language, and compare it (though it's subtle) with how he treats anyone he likes (especially on stage) to anyone he doesn't. Trump is a good actor, but those slips... they're so plain and clear.

The reason Pence is a bad pick, though, is because of how obvious it was that Trump was just making a gesture to the Republican establishment. He got the dumbest, weakest, lowest energy contender of the non-presidential candidates to essentially get them to end the "never Trump" movement. Trump then went on to do exactly what he wanted to do.

The Republican party is pro-free trade, whereas Trump is anti-free trade and supports protectionism. The republican party is anti-gay marriage, whereas Trump is pro-gay marriage. The Republican party supports immigration reform and a path to citizenship, whereas Trump wants to round people up to deport them and build a wall. Trump is pro-union (though quiet about it), whereas the Republican party is decidedly anti-organized labor. The list goes on and on.

Trump is not a Republican, or, he is not the kind of Republican that has existed since McKinley. He is not a neocon, he is a socially apathetic to socially liberal nationalist--meaning he is diametrically opposed to everything Mike Pence has ever stood for, which is the real reason that Pence was such a bad pick. They will never work together. Trump wanted someone he can bully around (which I sympathize with). Pence is that guy, and he is a terrible human being.

Kaine is pretty non-offensive, though. He's got a modest political background and a lot of ground level experience with stuff. He's also kind of a socialite, very affable and generally well spoken. But his personality is bland, which is good for Hillary because she knows he won't outshine her. Kaine is also a white guy, which Hillary hopes will help her win white male votes... which she will need if she wants to win this election.

So, whereas Pence is going to create high drama and disfunction in the campaign because of what he is and the differences between him and Trump, Kaine might actually help Hilary get elected. It is possible that, on a demographic basis alone, Pence will help Trump too. But Idk.

Frankly, I was hoping for Chris Christie, and I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive Trump's son-in-law for his stupid objection to Christie. If Trump's son in law (Ivanka's husband) didn't have a criminal for a father, this wouldn't have been an issue.

Calling someone a terrible human being just because they don't agree with your stance on homosexuality is really pathetic. But hey, I get it. It's the main reason I won't move over and vote for Johnson. But I hardly think he's a terrible human being just because we differ on that issue.
YYW
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7/23/2016 5:43:29 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 4:34:04 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:27:24 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:07:26 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Discuss.

I think that Hillary actually managed to make a worse choice. It gains nobody, whereas Pence *might* encourage the further right to back Trump over Johnson, Kaine encourages the further left to support Stein or Johnson over Clinton.

Pence, by far, is the worst pick. Aside from being a homophobic piece of trash (which he surely is), Pence has the intellectual capacity of Rick Perry with the temperament of Jeb Bush and the beliefs of Ted Cruz. Basically, Pence is a total stupid bitch.... but that is also why Trump picked him.

Trump picked pence for one reason: Party Unity. Trump hates pence. You can see it clearly in his body language, and compare it (though it's subtle) with how he treats anyone he likes (especially on stage) to anyone he doesn't. Trump is a good actor, but those slips... they're so plain and clear.

The reason Pence is a bad pick, though, is because of how obvious it was that Trump was just making a gesture to the Republican establishment. He got the dumbest, weakest, lowest energy contender of the non-presidential candidates to essentially get them to end the "never Trump" movement. Trump then went on to do exactly what he wanted to do.

The Republican party is pro-free trade, whereas Trump is anti-free trade and supports protectionism. The republican party is anti-gay marriage, whereas Trump is pro-gay marriage. The Republican party supports immigration reform and a path to citizenship, whereas Trump wants to round people up to deport them and build a wall. Trump is pro-union (though quiet about it), whereas the Republican party is decidedly anti-organized labor. The list goes on and on.

Trump is not a Republican, or, he is not the kind of Republican that has existed since McKinley. He is not a neocon, he is a socially apathetic to socially liberal nationalist--meaning he is diametrically opposed to everything Mike Pence has ever stood for, which is the real reason that Pence was such a bad pick. They will never work together. Trump wanted someone he can bully around (which I sympathize with). Pence is that guy, and he is a terrible human being.

Kaine is pretty non-offensive, though. He's got a modest political background and a lot of ground level experience with stuff. He's also kind of a socialite, very affable and generally well spoken. But his personality is bland, which is good for Hillary because she knows he won't outshine her. Kaine is also a white guy, which Hillary hopes will help her win white male votes... which she will need if she wants to win this election.

So, whereas Pence is going to create high drama and disfunction in the campaign because of what he is and the differences between him and Trump, Kaine might actually help Hilary get elected. It is possible that, on a demographic basis alone, Pence will help Trump too. But Idk.

Frankly, I was hoping for Chris Christie, and I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive Trump's son-in-law for his stupid objection to Christie. If Trump's son in law (Ivanka's husband) didn't have a criminal for a father, this wouldn't have been an issue.

Calling someone a terrible human being just because they don't agree with your stance on homosexuality is really pathetic. But hey, I get it. It's the main reason I won't move over and vote for Johnson. But I hardly think he's a terrible human being just because we differ on that issue.

I don't know why you think I am willing to engage with you. I have no respect for you, and your perspectives as expressed here and elsewhere mean nothing to me.

When you start to act like a respectable forum member, then I'll care what you have to say.
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000ike
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7/23/2016 7:29:42 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Kaine's speech in Miami today was leaps and bounds the best oratory delivered by anybody this election season... I don't know what possessed me to think he was boring.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
YYW
Posts: 36,391
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7/23/2016 7:33:33 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 4:26:19 PM, TBR wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:27:24 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:07:26 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Discuss.

I think that Hillary actually managed to make a worse choice. It gains nobody, whereas Pence *might* encourage the further right to back Trump over Johnson, Kaine encourages the further left to support Stein or Johnson over Clinton.

Pence, by far, is the worst pick. Aside from being a homophobic piece of trash (which he surely is), Pence has the intellectual capacity of Rick Perry with the temperament of Jeb Bush and the beliefs of Ted Cruz. Basically, Pence is a total stupid bitch.... but that is also why Trump picked him.

Trump picked pence for one reason: Party Unity. Trump hates pence. You can see it clearly in his body language, and compare it (though it's subtle) with how he treats anyone he likes (especially on stage) to anyone he doesn't. Trump is a good actor, but those slips... they're so plain and clear.

The reason Pence is a bad pick, though, is because of how obvious it was that Trump was just making a gesture to the Republican establishment. He got the dumbest, weakest, lowest energy contender of the non-presidential candidates to essentially get them to end the "never Trump" movement. Trump then went on to do exactly what he wanted to do.

The Republican party is pro-free trade, whereas Trump is anti-free trade and supports protectionism. The republican party is anti-gay marriage, whereas Trump is pro-gay marriage. The Republican party supports immigration reform and a path to citizenship, whereas Trump wants to round people up to deport them and build a wall. Trump is pro-union (though quiet about it), whereas the Republican party is decidedly anti-organized labor. The list goes on and on.

Trump is not a Republican, or, he is not the kind of Republican that has existed since McKinley. He is not a neocon, he is a socially apathetic to socially liberal nationalist--meaning he is diametrically opposed to everything Mike Pence has ever stood for, which is the real reason that Pence was such a bad pick. They will never work together. Trump wanted someone he can bully around (which I sympathize with). Pence is that guy, and he is a terrible human being.

Kaine is pretty non-offensive, though. He's got a modest political background and a lot of ground level experience with stuff. He's also kind of a socialite, very affable and generally well spoken. But his personality is bland, which is good for Hillary because she knows he won't outshine her. Kaine is also a white guy, which Hillary hopes will help her win white male votes... which she will need if she wants to win this election.

So, whereas Pence is going to create high drama and disfunction in the campaign because of what he is and the differences between him and Trump, Kaine might actually help Hilary get elected. It is possible that, on a demographic basis alone, Pence will help Trump too. But Idk.

Frankly, I was hoping for Chris Christie, and I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive Trump's son-in-law for his stupid objection to Christie. If Trump's son in law (Ivanka's husband) didn't have a criminal for a father, this wouldn't have been an issue.

Don't forget Kaine is personally pro-life simply willing to "let it go".

Yes, which is the only reasonable "pro life" position.

I am impressed with Kaine, though. I like him a lot, based on what little I've seen.
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YYW
Posts: 36,391
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7/23/2016 7:34:57 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
There is no doubt that Kaine was picked to increase Clinton's popularity with white males, and, as a white guy, I can tell you that she's succeeded, at least with this white guy.
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BrendanD19
Posts: 2,050
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7/23/2016 7:56:51 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 3:07:26 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Discuss.

I think that Hillary actually managed to make a worse choice. It gains nobody, whereas Pence *might* encourage the further right to back Drumpf over Johnson, Kaine encourages the further left to support Stein or Johnson over Clinton.

I agree. With Trump, he needed to secure the support of the establishment, but Clinton needed to win over the left, but instead chose an establishment lackey. I think that this will be Joe Lieberman all over again.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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7/23/2016 9:20:49 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 7:33:33 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/23/2016 4:26:19 PM, TBR wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:27:24 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:07:26 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Discuss.

I think that Hillary actually managed to make a worse choice. It gains nobody, whereas Pence *might* encourage the further right to back Trump over Johnson, Kaine encourages the further left to support Stein or Johnson over Clinton.

Pence, by far, is the worst pick. Aside from being a homophobic piece of trash (which he surely is), Pence has the intellectual capacity of Rick Perry with the temperament of Jeb Bush and the beliefs of Ted Cruz. Basically, Pence is a total stupid bitch.... but that is also why Trump picked him.

Trump picked pence for one reason: Party Unity. Trump hates pence. You can see it clearly in his body language, and compare it (though it's subtle) with how he treats anyone he likes (especially on stage) to anyone he doesn't. Trump is a good actor, but those slips... they're so plain and clear.

The reason Pence is a bad pick, though, is because of how obvious it was that Trump was just making a gesture to the Republican establishment. He got the dumbest, weakest, lowest energy contender of the non-presidential candidates to essentially get them to end the "never Trump" movement. Trump then went on to do exactly what he wanted to do.

The Republican party is pro-free trade, whereas Trump is anti-free trade and supports protectionism. The republican party is anti-gay marriage, whereas Trump is pro-gay marriage. The Republican party supports immigration reform and a path to citizenship, whereas Trump wants to round people up to deport them and build a wall. Trump is pro-union (though quiet about it), whereas the Republican party is decidedly anti-organized labor. The list goes on and on.

Trump is not a Republican, or, he is not the kind of Republican that has existed since McKinley. He is not a neocon, he is a socially apathetic to socially liberal nationalist--meaning he is diametrically opposed to everything Mike Pence has ever stood for, which is the real reason that Pence was such a bad pick. They will never work together. Trump wanted someone he can bully around (which I sympathize with). Pence is that guy, and he is a terrible human being.

Kaine is pretty non-offensive, though. He's got a modest political background and a lot of ground level experience with stuff. He's also kind of a socialite, very affable and generally well spoken. But his personality is bland, which is good for Hillary because she knows he won't outshine her. Kaine is also a white guy, which Hillary hopes will help her win white male votes... which she will need if she wants to win this election.

So, whereas Pence is going to create high drama and disfunction in the campaign because of what he is and the differences between him and Trump, Kaine might actually help Hilary get elected. It is possible that, on a demographic basis alone, Pence will help Trump too. But Idk.

Frankly, I was hoping for Chris Christie, and I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive Trump's son-in-law for his stupid objection to Christie. If Trump's son in law (Ivanka's husband) didn't have a criminal for a father, this wouldn't have been an issue.

Don't forget Kaine is personally pro-life simply willing to "let it go".

Yes, which is the only reasonable "pro life" position.

I am impressed with Kaine, though. I like him a lot, based on what little I've seen.

I am bored with Kaine already, and no. The only reasonable position is its none of my business what a women does with her body.
RookieApologist
Posts: 469
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7/23/2016 11:20:57 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 5:43:29 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/23/2016 4:34:04 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:27:24 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:07:26 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Discuss.

I think that Hillary actually managed to make a worse choice. It gains nobody, whereas Pence *might* encourage the further right to back Trump over Johnson, Kaine encourages the further left to support Stein or Johnson over Clinton.

Pence, by far, is the worst pick. Aside from being a homophobic piece of trash (which he surely is), Pence has the intellectual capacity of Rick Perry with the temperament of Jeb Bush and the beliefs of Ted Cruz. Basically, Pence is a total stupid bitch.... but that is also why Trump picked him.

Trump picked pence for one reason: Party Unity. Trump hates pence. You can see it clearly in his body language, and compare it (though it's subtle) with how he treats anyone he likes (especially on stage) to anyone he doesn't. Trump is a good actor, but those slips... they're so plain and clear.

The reason Pence is a bad pick, though, is because of how obvious it was that Trump was just making a gesture to the Republican establishment. He got the dumbest, weakest, lowest energy contender of the non-presidential candidates to essentially get them to end the "never Trump" movement. Trump then went on to do exactly what he wanted to do.

The Republican party is pro-free trade, whereas Trump is anti-free trade and supports protectionism. The republican party is anti-gay marriage, whereas Trump is pro-gay marriage. The Republican party supports immigration reform and a path to citizenship, whereas Trump wants to round people up to deport them and build a wall. Trump is pro-union (though quiet about it), whereas the Republican party is decidedly anti-organized labor. The list goes on and on.

Trump is not a Republican, or, he is not the kind of Republican that has existed since McKinley. He is not a neocon, he is a socially apathetic to socially liberal nationalist--meaning he is diametrically opposed to everything Mike Pence has ever stood for, which is the real reason that Pence was such a bad pick. They will never work together. Trump wanted someone he can bully around (which I sympathize with). Pence is that guy, and he is a terrible human being.

Kaine is pretty non-offensive, though. He's got a modest political background and a lot of ground level experience with stuff. He's also kind of a socialite, very affable and generally well spoken. But his personality is bland, which is good for Hillary because she knows he won't outshine her. Kaine is also a white guy, which Hillary hopes will help her win white male votes... which she will need if she wants to win this election.

So, whereas Pence is going to create high drama and disfunction in the campaign because of what he is and the differences between him and Trump, Kaine might actually help Hilary get elected. It is possible that, on a demographic basis alone, Pence will help Trump too. But Idk.

Frankly, I was hoping for Chris Christie, and I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive Trump's son-in-law for his stupid objection to Christie. If Trump's son in law (Ivanka's husband) didn't have a criminal for a father, this wouldn't have been an issue.

Calling someone a terrible human being just because they don't agree with your stance on homosexuality is really pathetic. But hey, I get it. It's the main reason I won't move over and vote for Johnson. But I hardly think he's a terrible human being just because we differ on that issue.

I don't know why you think I am willing to engage with you. I have no respect for you, and your perspectives as expressed here and elsewhere mean nothing to me.

When you start to act like a respectable forum member, then I'll care what you have to say.

Does being respectable mean I have to agree with you? Seems like a high bar for a debate site. I'm just trying to find out why you claim someone is a "terrible human being" because they have a different view on homosexuality than you. I hardly think I've been disrespectful to you or anyone else on this site, but please point to a post where I have. I disagree with your perspective on homosexuality, but that doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion or your right to have one.
YYW
Posts: 36,391
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7/23/2016 11:36:37 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 11:20:57 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 7/23/2016 5:43:29 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/23/2016 4:34:04 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:27:24 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:07:26 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Discuss.

I think that Hillary actually managed to make a worse choice. It gains nobody, whereas Pence *might* encourage the further right to back Trump over Johnson, Kaine encourages the further left to support Stein or Johnson over Clinton.

Pence, by far, is the worst pick. Aside from being a homophobic piece of trash (which he surely is), Pence has the intellectual capacity of Rick Perry with the temperament of Jeb Bush and the beliefs of Ted Cruz. Basically, Pence is a total stupid bitch.... but that is also why Trump picked him.

Trump picked pence for one reason: Party Unity. Trump hates pence. You can see it clearly in his body language, and compare it (though it's subtle) with how he treats anyone he likes (especially on stage) to anyone he doesn't. Trump is a good actor, but those slips... they're so plain and clear.

The reason Pence is a bad pick, though, is because of how obvious it was that Trump was just making a gesture to the Republican establishment. He got the dumbest, weakest, lowest energy contender of the non-presidential candidates to essentially get them to end the "never Trump" movement. Trump then went on to do exactly what he wanted to do.

The Republican party is pro-free trade, whereas Trump is anti-free trade and supports protectionism. The republican party is anti-gay marriage, whereas Trump is pro-gay marriage. The Republican party supports immigration reform and a path to citizenship, whereas Trump wants to round people up to deport them and build a wall. Trump is pro-union (though quiet about it), whereas the Republican party is decidedly anti-organized labor. The list goes on and on.

Trump is not a Republican, or, he is not the kind of Republican that has existed since McKinley. He is not a neocon, he is a socially apathetic to socially liberal nationalist--meaning he is diametrically opposed to everything Mike Pence has ever stood for, which is the real reason that Pence was such a bad pick. They will never work together. Trump wanted someone he can bully around (which I sympathize with). Pence is that guy, and he is a terrible human being.

Kaine is pretty non-offensive, though. He's got a modest political background and a lot of ground level experience with stuff. He's also kind of a socialite, very affable and generally well spoken. But his personality is bland, which is good for Hillary because she knows he won't outshine her. Kaine is also a white guy, which Hillary hopes will help her win white male votes... which she will need if she wants to win this election.

So, whereas Pence is going to create high drama and disfunction in the campaign because of what he is and the differences between him and Trump, Kaine might actually help Hilary get elected. It is possible that, on a demographic basis alone, Pence will help Trump too. But Idk.

Frankly, I was hoping for Chris Christie, and I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive Trump's son-in-law for his stupid objection to Christie. If Trump's son in law (Ivanka's husband) didn't have a criminal for a father, this wouldn't have been an issue.

Calling someone a terrible human being just because they don't agree with your stance on homosexuality is really pathetic. But hey, I get it. It's the main reason I won't move over and vote for Johnson. But I hardly think he's a terrible human being just because we differ on that issue.

I don't know why you think I am willing to engage with you. I have no respect for you, and your perspectives as expressed here and elsewhere mean nothing to me.

When you start to act like a respectable forum member, then I'll care what you have to say.

Does being respectable mean I have to agree with you?

Nope.

Seems like a high bar for a debate site. I'm just trying to find out why you claim someone is a "terrible human being" because they have a different view on homosexuality than you. I hardly think I've been disrespectful to you or anyone else on this site, but please point to a post where I have. I disagree with your perspective on homosexuality, but that doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion or your right to have one.
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tejretics
Posts: 6,093
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7/24/2016 5:04:14 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 3:27:24 PM, YYW wrote:
Trump is pro-union (though quiet about it), whereas the Republican party is decidedly anti-organized labor. The list goes on and on.

I thought Trump was openly pro-union.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
tejretics
Posts: 6,093
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7/24/2016 5:05:02 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Oh, and regardless of Trump's own position on gay marriage, I fear that he'll appoint judges who'll overturn Obergefell v. Hodges.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,750
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7/24/2016 3:07:18 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 3:07:26 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Discuss.

I think that Hillary actually managed to make a worse choice. It gains nobody, whereas Pence *might* encourage the further right to back Trump over Johnson, Kaine encourages the further left to support Stein or Johnson over Clinton.

Pence is a worse pick. Kaine is a solid pick. Having Kaine will help Clinton with white men, republicans/sane people who hate Trump, and moderates. A Bernie supporter would have to be a fool to support Trump over Clinton. If progressives do not like Kaine, they must fvcking hate Pence. I heard Pence finished 2nd to Biden in the Obama veepstakes. Seems like a competent individual.

Trump was stuck with Pence as only a few people would have accepted the job as Trump VP. Pence is way to religious and conservative for most people. Moderates/Liberals hate Pence because of the religious freedom bill. Conservatives hate pence because he eventually caved on the religious freedom bill.
imabench
Posts: 21,229
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7/24/2016 3:12:17 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 7:29:42 PM, 000ike wrote:
Kaine's speech in Miami today was leaps and bounds the best oratory delivered by anybody this election season... I don't know what possessed me to think he was boring.

Ive heard that as well from people I know irl. Whatever it was he said in the speech it eased the doubts of a lot of people skeptical about him, whether they be centrists or leftists

Pence on the other hand seems to have done the exact opposite for Trump, at least from what I can tell
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000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/24/2016 8:33:22 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 3:12:17 PM, imabench wrote:
At 7/23/2016 7:29:42 PM, 000ike wrote:
Kaine's speech in Miami today was leaps and bounds the best oratory delivered by anybody this election season... I don't know what possessed me to think he was boring.

Ive heard that as well from people I know irl. Whatever it was he said in the speech it eased the doubts of a lot of people skeptical about him, whether they be centrists or leftists

Pence on the other hand seems to have done the exact opposite for Trump, at least from what I can tell

Although I have a special disdain for careerism (and literally everything about Kaine's life disclosed in that speech from his education to choice of spouse reaks of careerism), he's just too likable. He actually inspires confidence in Hillary and her ability to make sharp and well-counseled decisions (something put in question by her scandals).
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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7/24/2016 9:16:16 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 5:05:02 AM, tejretics wrote:
Oh, and regardless of Trump's own position on gay marriage, I fear that he'll appoint judges who'll overturn Obergefell v. Hodges.

The fallout from that might be (is) too big to go though with overturning it.
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