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Clinton is making moves to split the party

1harderthanyouthink
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7/24/2016 11:26:46 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
So earlier in the past week, Hillary Clinton chose Tim Kaine as her VP. It wasn't the worst she could have done.

But the left was a bit ticked off. They thought that, in exchange for Bernie's support, she might pick someone a bit more in line with their values. Kaine is a centrist, career politician. They didn't like him. It wasn't the biggest thing, but it made some people a little more disillusioned.

Strike one for party unity.

Recently, DNC emails were released by WikiLeaks. They showed DNC chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz mocking Bernie, and active party collusion against the Sanders campaign. To preserve the Democratic Party, Debbie Wasserman Schultz resigned. More resignations should be expected to follow.

But don't think it's over. Hillary Clinton, in response to these events, praised the work by Debbie Wasserman Schultz - who worked for Clinton in 2008 - and hired her as a surrogate and honorary co-chair of the Presidential campaign.

This kind of kills the strike system. We're a day away from the convention. The nomination is still technically under contest due to Sanders not officially ending his campaign. There will be a vote that requires the Democratic establishment to push Clinton over the edge to become nominee. There could be a floor fight. Words from speakers may set Sanders supporters in the arena off.

I'd say Democratic party unity is at strike 2.9999999 after the co-chair DWS fuckery. It'll just take a little nudge to nuke Clinton's election hopes.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
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imabench
Posts: 21,229
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7/24/2016 11:29:01 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 11:26:46 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
So earlier in the past week, Hillary Clinton chose Tim Kaine as her VP. It wasn't the worst she could have done.

But the left was a bit ticked off. They thought that, in exchange for Bernie's support, she might pick someone a bit more in line with their values. Kaine is a centrist, career politician. They didn't like him. It wasn't the biggest thing, but it made some people a little more disillusioned.

Strike one for party unity.

Recently, DNC emails were released by WikiLeaks. They showed DNC chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz mocking Bernie, and active party collusion against the Sanders campaign. To preserve the Democratic Party, Debbie Wasserman Schultz resigned. More resignations should be expected to follow.

But don't think it's over. Hillary Clinton, in response to these events, praised the work by Debbie Wasserman Schultz - who worked for Clinton in 2008 - and hired her as a surrogate and honorary co-chair of the Presidential campaign.

This kind of kills the strike system. We're a day away from the convention. The nomination is still technically under contest due to Sanders not officially ending his campaign. There will be a vote that requires the Democratic establishment to push Clinton over the edge to become nominee. There could be a floor fight. Words from speakers may set Sanders supporters in the arena off.

I'd say Democratic party unity is at strike 2.9999999 after the co-chair DWS fuckery. It'll just take a little nudge to nuke Clinton's election hopes.

Failing to appease the irrational half of the Dem base isnt going to nuke her election hopes.... Trying to beat Trump at his own game by resorting to insults and blatant lies, THAT might nuke her election hopes
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bsh1
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7/24/2016 11:32:34 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
I think, after Bernie's endorsement, a floor fight would be absurdly out of the question.

Bernie knew or suspected before he offered his endorsement--as did we all--that DWS had been maneuvering for Clinton. The emails are hardly revelatory; they merely confirm an already obvious fact.

I doubt Bernie will turn his ire on Clinton so much as he will push for resignations of other officials and for the instigation of some kind of investigation. Bernie will continue to support Clinton because he realizes it would split the party if he did not, with disastrous consequences for the election in November. He will tow the line, and I would be absolutely flabbergasted if he did anything but.
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1harderthanyouthink
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7/24/2016 11:35:51 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 11:32:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after Bernie's endorsement, a floor fight would be absurdly out of the question.

Bernie knew or suspected before he offered his endorsement--as did we all--that DWS had been maneuvering for Clinton. The emails are hardly revelatory; they merely confirm an already obvious fact.

I doubt Bernie will turn his ire on Clinton so much as he will push for resignations of other officials and for the instigation of some kind of investigation. Bernie will continue to support Clinton because he realizes it would split the party if he did not, with disastrous consequences for the election in November. He will tow the line, and I would be absolutely flabbergasted if he did anything but.

He might "support her", but he doesn't control the millions of people that voted for him - or the thousands that will inevitably protest the DNC - some of whom are delegates.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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Greyparrot
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7/24/2016 11:36:54 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 11:32:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after Bernie's endorsement, a floor fight would be absurdly out of the question.

Bernie knew or suspected before he offered his endorsement--as did we all--that DWS had been maneuvering for Clinton. The emails are hardly revelatory; they merely confirm an already obvious fact.

I doubt Bernie will turn his ire on Clinton so much as he will push for resignations of other officials and for the instigation of some kind of investigation. Bernie will continue to support Clinton because he realizes it would split the party if he did not, with disastrous consequences for the election in November. He will tow the line, and I would be absolutely flabbergasted if he did anything but.

Even though Hillary is just as stupid as Trump, Bernie is wiser than Cruz.
1harderthanyouthink
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7/24/2016 11:37:29 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 11:29:01 PM, imabench wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:26:46 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Trying to beat Trump at his own game by resorting to insults and blatant lies, THAT might nuke her election hopes

Well she's off to a good start by having her campaign accuse Trump of being backed by Russia on national television.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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bsh1
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7/24/2016 11:40:45 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 11:35:51 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:32:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after Bernie's endorsement, a floor fight would be absurdly out of the question.

Bernie knew or suspected before he offered his endorsement--as did we all--that DWS had been maneuvering for Clinton. The emails are hardly revelatory; they merely confirm an already obvious fact.

I doubt Bernie will turn his ire on Clinton so much as he will push for resignations of other officials and for the instigation of some kind of investigation. Bernie will continue to support Clinton because he realizes it would split the party if he did not, with disastrous consequences for the election in November. He will tow the line, and I would be absolutely flabbergasted if he did anything but.

He might "support her", but he doesn't control the millions of people that voted for him - or the thousands that will inevitably protest the DNC - some of whom are delegates.

There is, at most conventions, a "rally around the flag" effect, as the uniting fact that all participants are democrats together is on full display, and as people are forced to look to November at the potential options.

Look, for example, at Cruz's speech. He wasn't just booed by the NY delegation--hundreds of delegates were shouting him down for failing to endorse Trump, despite the fact that (very probably) most of those delegates didn't really like Trump (or outright detested him) to begin with.

I think, with Bernie's support, which will certainly impact the behavior of the delegates, and with the aforementioned coming together effect that naturally occurs at gatherings like this, there will be no floor fight. It is my understanding that Bernie is speaking early in the convention, and he will therefore have an early opportunity to quell the grumblings of some of the more dissatisfied delegates as well.
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bsh1
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7/24/2016 11:42:20 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 11:36:54 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:32:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after Bernie's endorsement, a floor fight would be absurdly out of the question.

Bernie knew or suspected before he offered his endorsement--as did we all--that DWS had been maneuvering for Clinton. The emails are hardly revelatory; they merely confirm an already obvious fact.

I doubt Bernie will turn his ire on Clinton so much as he will push for resignations of other officials and for the instigation of some kind of investigation. Bernie will continue to support Clinton because he realizes it would split the party if he did not, with disastrous consequences for the election in November. He will tow the line, and I would be absolutely flabbergasted if he did anything but.

Even though Hillary is just as stupid as Trump, Bernie is wiser than Cruz.

I would agree. Cruz made a gamble--I think he's trying to set himself up as an anti-Trump, proto-libertarian, evangelical candidate (i.e. all things to all people, except Trumpeters) for the next election. I think it won't go over well, and many will remember this as a betrayal of the party. We'll see though. Only time will tell.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Greyparrot
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7/24/2016 11:45:18 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 11:42:20 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:36:54 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:32:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after Bernie's endorsement, a floor fight would be absurdly out of the question.

Bernie knew or suspected before he offered his endorsement--as did we all--that DWS had been maneuvering for Clinton. The emails are hardly revelatory; they merely confirm an already obvious fact.

I doubt Bernie will turn his ire on Clinton so much as he will push for resignations of other officials and for the instigation of some kind of investigation. Bernie will continue to support Clinton because he realizes it would split the party if he did not, with disastrous consequences for the election in November. He will tow the line, and I would be absolutely flabbergasted if he did anything but.

Even though Hillary is just as stupid as Trump, Bernie is wiser than Cruz.

I would agree. Cruz made a gamble--I think he's trying to set himself up as an anti-Trump, proto-libertarian, evangelical candidate (i.e. all things to all people, except Trumpeters) for the next election. I think it won't go over well, and many will remember this as a betrayal of the party. We'll see though. Only time will tell.

It's so unlikely that Cruz will ever make good with the general party again.

Cruz along with Kasich are doomed; especially if Trump ends up losing the election over Ohio. Kasich and Cruz will be blamed forever for the resulting SCOTUS shift.
bsh1
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7/24/2016 11:46:33 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 11:45:18 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:42:20 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:36:54 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:32:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after Bernie's endorsement, a floor fight would be absurdly out of the question.

Bernie knew or suspected before he offered his endorsement--as did we all--that DWS had been maneuvering for Clinton. The emails are hardly revelatory; they merely confirm an already obvious fact.

I doubt Bernie will turn his ire on Clinton so much as he will push for resignations of other officials and for the instigation of some kind of investigation. Bernie will continue to support Clinton because he realizes it would split the party if he did not, with disastrous consequences for the election in November. He will tow the line, and I would be absolutely flabbergasted if he did anything but.

Even though Hillary is just as stupid as Trump, Bernie is wiser than Cruz.

I would agree. Cruz made a gamble--I think he's trying to set himself up as an anti-Trump, proto-libertarian, evangelical candidate (i.e. all things to all people, except Trumpeters) for the next election. I think it won't go over well, and many will remember this as a betrayal of the party. We'll see though. Only time will tell.

It's so unlikely that Cruz will ever make good with the general party again.

Cruz along with Kasich are doomed; especially if Trump ends up losing the election over Ohio. Kasich and Cruz will be blamed forever for the resulting SCOTUS shift.

It's possible, but I think Cruz will take a lot more heat than Kasich ever will. Kasich could run again viably (at least with establishment folks), I think.
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1harderthanyouthink
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7/24/2016 11:47:08 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 11:42:20 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:36:54 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:32:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after Bernie's endorsement, a floor fight would be absurdly out of the question.

Bernie knew or suspected before he offered his endorsement--as did we all--that DWS had been maneuvering for Clinton. The emails are hardly revelatory; they merely confirm an already obvious fact.

I doubt Bernie will turn his ire on Clinton so much as he will push for resignations of other officials and for the instigation of some kind of investigation. Bernie will continue to support Clinton because he realizes it would split the party if he did not, with disastrous consequences for the election in November. He will tow the line, and I would be absolutely flabbergasted if he did anything but.

Even though Hillary is just as stupid as Trump, Bernie is wiser than Cruz.

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"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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bsh1
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7/24/2016 11:49:49 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 11:47:08 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:42:20 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:36:54 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:32:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after Bernie's endorsement, a floor fight would be absurdly out of the question.

Bernie knew or suspected before he offered his endorsement--as did we all--that DWS had been maneuvering for Clinton. The emails are hardly revelatory; they merely confirm an already obvious fact.

I doubt Bernie will turn his ire on Clinton so much as he will push for resignations of other officials and for the instigation of some kind of investigation. Bernie will continue to support Clinton because he realizes it would split the party if he did not, with disastrous consequences for the election in November. He will tow the line, and I would be absolutely flabbergasted if he did anything but.

Even though Hillary is just as stupid as Trump, Bernie is wiser than Cruz.

Proto-libertarian

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I agree. But that's how it looked like he was trying to sell himself, with all his talk of freedom and even his nod to the gay community. Obviously, he sees an opening with Ron Paul's old voters, and he wants to try to coopt them into Cruzworld.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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1harderthanyouthink
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7/24/2016 11:50:36 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 11:40:45 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:35:51 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:32:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after Bernie's endorsement, a floor fight would be absurdly out of the question.

Bernie knew or suspected before he offered his endorsement--as did we all--that DWS had been maneuvering for Clinton. The emails are hardly revelatory; they merely confirm an already obvious fact.

I doubt Bernie will turn his ire on Clinton so much as he will push for resignations of other officials and for the instigation of some kind of investigation. Bernie will continue to support Clinton because he realizes it would split the party if he did not, with disastrous consequences for the election in November. He will tow the line, and I would be absolutely flabbergasted if he did anything but.

He might "support her", but he doesn't control the millions of people that voted for him - or the thousands that will inevitably protest the DNC - some of whom are delegates.

There is, at most conventions, a "rally around the flag" effect, as the uniting fact that all participants are democrats together is on full display, and as people are forced to look to November at the potential options.

Look, for example, at Cruz's speech. He wasn't just booed by the NY delegation--hundreds of delegates were shouting him down for failing to endorse Trump, despite the fact that (very probably) most of those delegates didn't really like Trump (or outright detested him) to begin with.

I think, with Bernie's support, which will certainly impact the behavior of the delegates, and with the aforementioned coming together effect that naturally occurs at gatherings like this, there will be no floor fight. It is my understanding that Bernie is speaking early in the convention, and he will therefore have an early opportunity to quell the grumblings of some of the more dissatisfied delegates as well.

I think this is a bit of a different situation than the RNC, where there was no collusion against the top losing candidate revealed a day prior - quite the opposite - but anyway...
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
1harderthanyouthink
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7/24/2016 11:51:15 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 11:49:49 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:47:08 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:42:20 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:36:54 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:32:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after Bernie's endorsement, a floor fight would be absurdly out of the question.

Bernie knew or suspected before he offered his endorsement--as did we all--that DWS had been maneuvering for Clinton. The emails are hardly revelatory; they merely confirm an already obvious fact.

I doubt Bernie will turn his ire on Clinton so much as he will push for resignations of other officials and for the instigation of some kind of investigation. Bernie will continue to support Clinton because he realizes it would split the party if he did not, with disastrous consequences for the election in November. He will tow the line, and I would be absolutely flabbergasted if he did anything but.

Even though Hillary is just as stupid as Trump, Bernie is wiser than Cruz.

Proto-libertarian

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I agree. But that's how it looked like he was trying to sell himself, with all his talk of freedom and even his nod to the gay community. Obviously, he sees an opening with Ron Paul's old voters, and he wants to try to coopt them into Cruzworld.

I feel like the older Ron Paul supporters aren't that stupid.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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bsh1
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7/24/2016 11:55:54 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 11:50:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:40:45 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:35:51 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:32:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after Bernie's endorsement, a floor fight would be absurdly out of the question.

Bernie knew or suspected before he offered his endorsement--as did we all--that DWS had been maneuvering for Clinton. The emails are hardly revelatory; they merely confirm an already obvious fact.

I doubt Bernie will turn his ire on Clinton so much as he will push for resignations of other officials and for the instigation of some kind of investigation. Bernie will continue to support Clinton because he realizes it would split the party if he did not, with disastrous consequences for the election in November. He will tow the line, and I would be absolutely flabbergasted if he did anything but.

He might "support her", but he doesn't control the millions of people that voted for him - or the thousands that will inevitably protest the DNC - some of whom are delegates.

There is, at most conventions, a "rally around the flag" effect, as the uniting fact that all participants are democrats together is on full display, and as people are forced to look to November at the potential options.

Look, for example, at Cruz's speech. He wasn't just booed by the NY delegation--hundreds of delegates were shouting him down for failing to endorse Trump, despite the fact that (very probably) most of those delegates didn't really like Trump (or outright detested him) to begin with.

I think, with Bernie's support, which will certainly impact the behavior of the delegates, and with the aforementioned coming together effect that naturally occurs at gatherings like this, there will be no floor fight. It is my understanding that Bernie is speaking early in the convention, and he will therefore have an early opportunity to quell the grumblings of some of the more dissatisfied delegates as well.

I think this is a bit of a different situation than the RNC, where there was no collusion against the top losing candidate revealed a day prior - quite the opposite - but anyway...

I think it's pretty similar. The hatred that the anti-Trump movement had was really and serious, and if those delegate could overcome that, then I don't see why our delegates couldn't overcome a "surprise" release that surprised literally no one. Any delegate who found the contents of the uncovered emails to be shocking new info has been living under a rock for the past 6-8 months. It's pretty much new fuel added to an old flame, and so I don't think it will be *that* interesting or energizing for delegates, because everyone already knew what was going on. The fact that it is now confirmed makes little difference.
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bsh1
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7/24/2016 11:56:22 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 11:51:15 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:49:49 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I agree. But that's how it looked like he was trying to sell himself, with all his talk of freedom and even his nod to the gay community. Obviously, he sees an opening with Ron Paul's old voters, and he wants to try to coopt them into Cruzworld.

I feel like the older Ron Paul supporters aren't that stupid.

Ah. But does Cruz?
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Peepette
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7/24/2016 11:58:16 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 11:26:46 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
So earlier in the past week, Hillary Clinton chose Tim Kaine as her VP. It wasn't the worst she could have done.

But the left was a bit ticked off. They thought that, in exchange for Bernie's support, she might pick someone a bit more in line with their values. Kaine is a centrist, career politician. They didn't like him. It wasn't the biggest thing, but it made some people a little more disillusioned.

Strike one for party unity.

Recently, DNC emails were released by WikiLeaks. They showed DNC chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz mocking Bernie, and active party collusion against the Sanders campaign. To preserve the Democratic Party, Debbie Wasserman Schultz resigned. More resignations should be expected to follow.

The Debbie Wasserman Schultz controversy has been in the news from the very beginning. From scheduling the DNC debates on the lowest viewership nights, through to her responses regarding super delegates being purposeful in keeping outsiders from winning the ticket. This email revelation only further supports what the public already knew.


But don't think it's over. Hillary Clinton, in response to these events, praised the work by Debbie Wasserman Schultz - who worked for Clinton in 2008 - and hired her as a surrogate and honorary co-chair of the Presidential campaign.

No news here. The public knew DWS was in Shillary's pocket, it was all very obvious.


This kind of kills the strike system. We're a day away from the convention. The nomination is still technically under contest due to Sanders not officially ending his campaign. There will be a vote that requires the Democratic establishment to push Clinton over the edge to become nominee. There could be a floor fight. Words from speakers may set Sanders supporters in the arena off.

Yes, Sanders supporters will be up in a roar, but Shillary will inevitably get the convention; she has the delegates. I'd like to see what would happen if Bernie kept on running after the convention. Would he get air time or will he be snuffed to silence by the media. It sure would be interesting to see.


I'd say Democratic party unity is at strike 2.9999999 after the co-chair DWS fuckery. It'll just take a little nudge to nuke Clinton's election hopes.

Nope, it will do little to change the party line die hards. They could put up a Democratic party parrot as a nominee and they'd still vote along party lines. Bernieites will either go toward Shillary or move toward the Libertarian/Green party. Trump is far too scary to be considered by the Bernie or Shillary supporters. Shillary is bad but Trump is far worse. The RNC convention was nothing more than xenophobic fear mongering, hell no Shillary cry fest. Nothing of substance was presented. Only the under educated white pride dim wits fell for their garbage.
1harderthanyouthink
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7/25/2016 12:07:06 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 11:55:54 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:50:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:40:45 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:35:51 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:32:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after Bernie's endorsement, a floor fight would be absurdly out of the question.

Bernie knew or suspected before he offered his endorsement--as did we all--that DWS had been maneuvering for Clinton. The emails are hardly revelatory; they merely confirm an already obvious fact.

I doubt Bernie will turn his ire on Clinton so much as he will push for resignations of other officials and for the instigation of some kind of investigation. Bernie will continue to support Clinton because he realizes it would split the party if he did not, with disastrous consequences for the election in November. He will tow the line, and I would be absolutely flabbergasted if he did anything but.

He might "support her", but he doesn't control the millions of people that voted for him - or the thousands that will inevitably protest the DNC - some of whom are delegates.

There is, at most conventions, a "rally around the flag" effect, as the uniting fact that all participants are democrats together is on full display, and as people are forced to look to November at the potential options.

Look, for example, at Cruz's speech. He wasn't just booed by the NY delegation--hundreds of delegates were shouting him down for failing to endorse Trump, despite the fact that (very probably) most of those delegates didn't really like Trump (or outright detested him) to begin with.

I think, with Bernie's support, which will certainly impact the behavior of the delegates, and with the aforementioned coming together effect that naturally occurs at gatherings like this, there will be no floor fight. It is my understanding that Bernie is speaking early in the convention, and he will therefore have an early opportunity to quell the grumblings of some of the more dissatisfied delegates as well.

I think this is a bit of a different situation than the RNC, where there was no collusion against the top losing candidate revealed a day prior - quite the opposite - but anyway...

I think it's pretty similar. The hatred that the anti-Trump movement had was really and serious, and if those delegate could overcome that, then I don't see why our delegates couldn't overcome a "surprise" release that surprised literally no one. Any delegate who found the contents of the uncovered emails to be shocking new info has been living under a rock for the past 6-8 months. It's pretty much new fuel added to an old flame, and so I don't think it will be *that* interesting or energizing for delegates, because everyone already knew what was going on. The fact that it is now confirmed makes little difference.

It's one thing for Bernie to tell his supporters that DWS is against him. It's a much, much, bigger thing to have it all proven in print and on TV. You're vastly underestimating this.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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bsh1
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7/25/2016 12:14:18 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 12:07:06 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:55:54 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:50:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:40:45 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:35:51 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:32:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after Bernie's endorsement, a floor fight would be absurdly out of the question.

Bernie knew or suspected before he offered his endorsement--as did we all--that DWS had been maneuvering for Clinton. The emails are hardly revelatory; they merely confirm an already obvious fact.

I doubt Bernie will turn his ire on Clinton so much as he will push for resignations of other officials and for the instigation of some kind of investigation. Bernie will continue to support Clinton because he realizes it would split the party if he did not, with disastrous consequences for the election in November. He will tow the line, and I would be absolutely flabbergasted if he did anything but.

He might "support her", but he doesn't control the millions of people that voted for him - or the thousands that will inevitably protest the DNC - some of whom are delegates.

There is, at most conventions, a "rally around the flag" effect, as the uniting fact that all participants are democrats together is on full display, and as people are forced to look to November at the potential options.

Look, for example, at Cruz's speech. He wasn't just booed by the NY delegation--hundreds of delegates were shouting him down for failing to endorse Trump, despite the fact that (very probably) most of those delegates didn't really like Trump (or outright detested him) to begin with.

I think, with Bernie's support, which will certainly impact the behavior of the delegates, and with the aforementioned coming together effect that naturally occurs at gatherings like this, there will be no floor fight. It is my understanding that Bernie is speaking early in the convention, and he will therefore have an early opportunity to quell the grumblings of some of the more dissatisfied delegates as well.

I think this is a bit of a different situation than the RNC, where there was no collusion against the top losing candidate revealed a day prior - quite the opposite - but anyway...

I think it's pretty similar. The hatred that the anti-Trump movement had was really and serious, and if those delegate could overcome that, then I don't see why our delegates couldn't overcome a "surprise" release that surprised literally no one. Any delegate who found the contents of the uncovered emails to be shocking new info has been living under a rock for the past 6-8 months. It's pretty much new fuel added to an old flame, and so I don't think it will be *that* interesting or energizing for delegates, because everyone already knew what was going on. The fact that it is now confirmed makes little difference.

It's one thing for Bernie to tell his supporters that DWS is against him. It's a much, much, bigger thing to have it all proven in print and on TV. You're vastly underestimating this.

I would say you're vastly overestimating this, largely because of how much you dislike both DWS and Clinton, and how passionate you are for left-of-center values, which Clinton is certainly not a good standard-bearer for.

I don't think having it in print changes much at all for a very simple reason. When you and a bunch of other people know a secret (it's an open secret), it is not very interesting or surprising to you when that secret is formally revealed to you. You already knew, so it's not like you've learned anything new at all. Same old, same old. Sure, there might be some uptick in hostility towards Clinton, but I doubt it will be significant.

But we can agree to disagree here, because I doubt we'll see eye-to-eye.
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1harderthanyouthink
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7/25/2016 12:25:35 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 12:14:18 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:07:06 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:55:54 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:50:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:40:45 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:35:51 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:32:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after Bernie's endorsement, a floor fight would be absurdly out of the question.

Bernie knew or suspected before he offered his endorsement--as did we all--that DWS had been maneuvering for Clinton. The emails are hardly revelatory; they merely confirm an already obvious fact.

I doubt Bernie will turn his ire on Clinton so much as he will push for resignations of other officials and for the instigation of some kind of investigation. Bernie will continue to support Clinton because he realizes it would split the party if he did not, with disastrous consequences for the election in November. He will tow the line, and I would be absolutely flabbergasted if he did anything but.

He might "support her", but he doesn't control the millions of people that voted for him - or the thousands that will inevitably protest the DNC - some of whom are delegates.

There is, at most conventions, a "rally around the flag" effect, as the uniting fact that all participants are democrats together is on full display, and as people are forced to look to November at the potential options.

Look, for example, at Cruz's speech. He wasn't just booed by the NY delegation--hundreds of delegates were shouting him down for failing to endorse Trump, despite the fact that (very probably) most of those delegates didn't really like Trump (or outright detested him) to begin with.

I think, with Bernie's support, which will certainly impact the behavior of the delegates, and with the aforementioned coming together effect that naturally occurs at gatherings like this, there will be no floor fight. It is my understanding that Bernie is speaking early in the convention, and he will therefore have an early opportunity to quell the grumblings of some of the more dissatisfied delegates as well.

I think this is a bit of a different situation than the RNC, where there was no collusion against the top losing candidate revealed a day prior - quite the opposite - but anyway...

I think it's pretty similar. The hatred that the anti-Trump movement had was really and serious, and if those delegate could overcome that, then I don't see why our delegates couldn't overcome a "surprise" release that surprised literally no one. Any delegate who found the contents of the uncovered emails to be shocking new info has been living under a rock for the past 6-8 months. It's pretty much new fuel added to an old flame, and so I don't think it will be *that* interesting or energizing for delegates, because everyone already knew what was going on. The fact that it is now confirmed makes little difference.

It's one thing for Bernie to tell his supporters that DWS is against him. It's a much, much, bigger thing to have it all proven in print and on TV. You're vastly underestimating this.

I would say you're vastly overestimating this, largely because of how much you dislike both DWS and Clinton, and how passionate you are for left-of-center values, which Clinton is certainly not a good standard-bearer for.

I don't think having it in print changes much at all for a very simple reason. When you and a bunch of other people know a secret (it's an open secret), it is not very interesting or surprising to you when that secret is formally revealed to you. You already knew, so it's not like you've learned anything new at all. Same old, same old. Sure, there might be some uptick in hostility towards Clinton, but I doubt it will be significant.

Her election requires the support of the vast majority of Sanders supporters. Some uptick in hostility can cost her the election. This isn't an issue of bias - that's insulting downplay. She is struggling to pull ahead of Donald. J. Trump. Her unpopularity turns Pennsylvania into a swing state. And...party instability before the convention doesn't mean anything? Get real.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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bsh1
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7/25/2016 12:35:07 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 12:25:35 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:14:18 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:07:06 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:55:54 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:50:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:40:45 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:35:51 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:32:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after Bernie's endorsement, a floor fight would be absurdly out of the question.

Bernie knew or suspected before he offered his endorsement--as did we all--that DWS had been maneuvering for Clinton. The emails are hardly revelatory; they merely confirm an already obvious fact.

I doubt Bernie will turn his ire on Clinton so much as he will push for resignations of other officials and for the instigation of some kind of investigation. Bernie will continue to support Clinton because he realizes it would split the party if he did not, with disastrous consequences for the election in November. He will tow the line, and I would be absolutely flabbergasted if he did anything but.

He might "support her", but he doesn't control the millions of people that voted for him - or the thousands that will inevitably protest the DNC - some of whom are delegates.

There is, at most conventions, a "rally around the flag" effect, as the uniting fact that all participants are democrats together is on full display, and as people are forced to look to November at the potential options.

Look, for example, at Cruz's speech. He wasn't just booed by the NY delegation--hundreds of delegates were shouting him down for failing to endorse Trump, despite the fact that (very probably) most of those delegates didn't really like Trump (or outright detested him) to begin with.

I think, with Bernie's support, which will certainly impact the behavior of the delegates, and with the aforementioned coming together effect that naturally occurs at gatherings like this, there will be no floor fight. It is my understanding that Bernie is speaking early in the convention, and he will therefore have an early opportunity to quell the grumblings of some of the more dissatisfied delegates as well.

I think this is a bit of a different situation than the RNC, where there was no collusion against the top losing candidate revealed a day prior - quite the opposite - but anyway...

I think it's pretty similar. The hatred that the anti-Trump movement had was really and serious, and if those delegate could overcome that, then I don't see why our delegates couldn't overcome a "surprise" release that surprised literally no one. Any delegate who found the contents of the uncovered emails to be shocking new info has been living under a rock for the past 6-8 months. It's pretty much new fuel added to an old flame, and so I don't think it will be *that* interesting or energizing for delegates, because everyone already knew what was going on. The fact that it is now confirmed makes little difference.

It's one thing for Bernie to tell his supporters that DWS is against him. It's a much, much, bigger thing to have it all proven in print and on TV. You're vastly underestimating this.

I would say you're vastly overestimating this, largely because of how much you dislike both DWS and Clinton, and how passionate you are for left-of-center values, which Clinton is certainly not a good standard-bearer for.

I don't think having it in print changes much at all for a very simple reason. When you and a bunch of other people know a secret (it's an open secret), it is not very interesting or surprising to you when that secret is formally revealed to you. You already knew, so it's not like you've learned anything new at all. Same old, same old. Sure, there might be some uptick in hostility towards Clinton, but I doubt it will be significant.

Her election requires the support of the vast majority of Sanders supporters. Some uptick in hostility can cost her the election. This isn't an issue of bias - that's insulting downplay. She is struggling to pull ahead of Donald. J. Trump. Her unpopularity turns Pennsylvania into a swing state. And...party instability before the convention doesn't mean anything? Get real.

Firstly, calm down. Secondly, I said only that I think you are overestimating the uptick in anti-Clinton feeling this will cause among the delegates. I confined my analysis merely to the convention floor, not the broader electoral map. Redirecting the discussion to the broader electoral map misapplies my analysis by removing it from its context, so I generally find everything that you said problematic, because it misrepresents what I actually claimed.

Obviously, a raucous convention would hurt her in the broader electorate? Where did I ever disagree with that? My disagreement has been over whether or not the convention will actually be raucous, and I don't think it will be. So I am completely "real," and you seem to have grossly misconstrued what I said.

Her issues with Sanders supporters as a whole are distinct from any issues with Sanders delegates, specifically. I seriously doubt, for all the reasons I just mentioned, there will be any kerfuffles on the floor of the DNC; at least, there will be nothing major.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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imabench
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7/25/2016 12:36:22 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 12:25:35 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

Her election requires the support of the vast majority of Sanders supporters. Some uptick in hostility can cost her the election.

Then point to where Hillary was involved in any of this apart from being the one who benefits off of it..... Hillary didnt order this hit on Bernie, and anyone who knows anything about DWS knows she almost assuredly would do this on her own without having to have Hillary pressure or even ask her. Unless Hillary ordered the DNC or asked the DNC to put pressure on Bernie, THEN there would be hostility against her. Otherwise DWS is the one who will take heat for this, as evidenced by how she just had to step down from her position.

Hillary wont suffer from the fuckery of DWS, as evidenced by the last 50-something cases of DWS trying to tip the scales in Hillary's favor
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

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1harderthanyouthink
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7/25/2016 12:41:48 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 12:36:22 AM, imabench wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:25:35 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

Her election requires the support of the vast majority of Sanders supporters. Some uptick in hostility can cost her the election.

Then point to where Hillary was involved in any of this apart from being the one who benefits off of it..... Hillary didnt order this hit on Bernie, and anyone who knows anything about DWS knows she almost assuredly would do this on her own without having to have Hillary pressure or even ask her. Unless Hillary ordered the DNC or asked the DNC to put pressure on Bernie, THEN there would be hostility against her. Otherwise DWS is the one who will take heat for this, as evidenced by how she just had to step down from her position.

Hillary wont suffer from the fuckery of DWS, as evidenced by the last 50-something cases of DWS trying to tip the scales in Hillary's favor

Hillary doesn't have to be involved. She's the face of the establishment, and if the establishmemt isn't doing too hot right about now.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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imabench
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7/25/2016 12:45:13 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 12:41:48 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:36:22 AM, imabench wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:25:35 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

Her election requires the support of the vast majority of Sanders supporters. Some uptick in hostility can cost her the election.

Then point to where Hillary was involved in any of this apart from being the one who benefits off of it..... Hillary didnt order this hit on Bernie, and anyone who knows anything about DWS knows she almost assuredly would do this on her own without having to have Hillary pressure or even ask her. Unless Hillary ordered the DNC or asked the DNC to put pressure on Bernie, THEN there would be hostility against her. Otherwise DWS is the one who will take heat for this, as evidenced by how she just had to step down from her position.

Hillary wont suffer from the fuckery of DWS, as evidenced by the last 50-something cases of DWS trying to tip the scales in Hillary's favor

Hillary doesn't have to be involved. She's the face of the establishment, and if the establishmemt isn't doing too hot right about now.

Not for the GOP its not. For Dems though it seems to be doing alright since last time I checked, Hillary became the nominee, not Bernie
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
imabench
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7/25/2016 12:45:59 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 12:45:13 AM, imabench wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:41:48 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:36:22 AM, imabench wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:25:35 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

Her election requires the support of the vast majority of Sanders supporters. Some uptick in hostility can cost her the election.

Then point to where Hillary was involved in any of this apart from being the one who benefits off of it..... Hillary didnt order this hit on Bernie, and anyone who knows anything about DWS knows she almost assuredly would do this on her own without having to have Hillary pressure or even ask her. Unless Hillary ordered the DNC or asked the DNC to put pressure on Bernie, THEN there would be hostility against her. Otherwise DWS is the one who will take heat for this, as evidenced by how she just had to step down from her position.

Hillary wont suffer from the fuckery of DWS, as evidenced by the last 50-something cases of DWS trying to tip the scales in Hillary's favor

Hillary doesn't have to be involved. She's the face of the establishment, and if the establishmemt isn't doing too hot right about now.

Maybe for the GOP it is. For Dems though it seems to be doing alright since last time I checked, Hillary became the nominee, not Bernie

Fixed it
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
1harderthanyouthink
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7/25/2016 12:46:02 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 12:35:07 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:25:35 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:14:18 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:07:06 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:55:54 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:50:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:40:45 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think this is a bit of a different situation than the RNC, where there was no collusion against the top losing candidate revealed a day prior - quite the opposite - but anyway...

I think it's pretty similar. The hatred that the anti-Trump movement had was really and serious, and if those delegate could overcome that, then I don't see why our delegates couldn't overcome a "surprise" release that surprised literally no one. Any delegate who found the contents of the uncovered emails to be shocking new info has been living under a rock for the past 6-8 months. It's pretty much new fuel added to an old flame, and so I don't think it will be *that* interesting or energizing for delegates, because everyone already knew what was going on. The fact that it is now confirmed makes little difference.

It's one thing for Bernie to tell his supporters that DWS is against him. It's a much, much, bigger thing to have it all proven in print and on TV. You're vastly underestimating this.

I would say you're vastly overestimating this, largely because of how much you dislike both DWS and Clinton, and how passionate you are for left-of-center values, which Clinton is certainly not a good standard-bearer for.

I don't think having it in print changes much at all for a very simple reason. When you and a bunch of other people know a secret (it's an open secret), it is not very interesting or surprising to you when that secret is formally revealed to you. You already knew, so it's not like you've learned anything new at all. Same old, same old. Sure, there might be some uptick in hostility towards Clinton, but I doubt it will be significant.

Her election requires the support of the vast majority of Sanders supporters. Some uptick in hostility can cost her the election. This isn't an issue of bias - that's insulting downplay. She is struggling to pull ahead of Donald. J. Trump. Her unpopularity turns Pennsylvania into a swing state. And...party instability before the convention doesn't mean anything? Get real.

Firstly, calm down. Secondly, I said only that I think you are overestimating the uptick in anti-Clinton feeling this will cause among the delegates. I confined my analysis merely to the convention floor, not the broader electoral map. Redirecting the discussion to the broader electoral map misapplies my analysis by removing it from its context, so I generally find everything that you said problematic, because it misrepresents what I actually claimed.

What you said ignored the realities of the election, then.

Obviously, a raucous convention would hurt her in the broader electorate? Where did I ever disagree with that? My disagreement has been over whether or not the convention will actually be raucous, and I don't think it will be. So I am completely "real," and you seem to have grossly misconstrued what I said.

I don't know if the convention will be raucous. I said it might be if the pro-Hillary crowd fvcks up, which they have shown to be prone to doing.

Her issues with Sanders supporters as a whole are distinct from any issues with Sanders delegates, specifically. I seriously doubt, for all the reasons I just mentioned, there will be any kerfuffles on the floor of the DNC; at least, there will be nothing major.

Sanders delegates and average supporters tend to be just as hostile to the establishment.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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1harderthanyouthink
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7/25/2016 12:46:50 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 12:45:13 AM, imabench wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:41:48 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:36:22 AM, imabench wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:25:35 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

Her election requires the support of the vast majority of Sanders supporters. Some uptick in hostility can cost her the election.

Then point to where Hillary was involved in any of this apart from being the one who benefits off of it..... Hillary didnt order this hit on Bernie, and anyone who knows anything about DWS knows she almost assuredly would do this on her own without having to have Hillary pressure or even ask her. Unless Hillary ordered the DNC or asked the DNC to put pressure on Bernie, THEN there would be hostility against her. Otherwise DWS is the one who will take heat for this, as evidenced by how she just had to step down from her position.

Hillary wont suffer from the fuckery of DWS, as evidenced by the last 50-something cases of DWS trying to tip the scales in Hillary's favor

Hillary doesn't have to be involved. She's the face of the establishment, and if the establishmemt isn't doing too hot right about now.

Maybe for the GOP its not. For Dems though it seems to be doing alright since last time I checked, Hillary became the nominee, not Bernie

Yeah, they only needed to collude against him to make sure that happened.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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imabench
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7/25/2016 12:49:17 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 12:46:50 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:45:13 AM, imabench wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:41:48 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:36:22 AM, imabench wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:25:35 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

Her election requires the support of the vast majority of Sanders supporters. Some uptick in hostility can cost her the election.

Then point to where Hillary was involved in any of this apart from being the one who benefits off of it..... Hillary didnt order this hit on Bernie, and anyone who knows anything about DWS knows she almost assuredly would do this on her own without having to have Hillary pressure or even ask her. Unless Hillary ordered the DNC or asked the DNC to put pressure on Bernie, THEN there would be hostility against her. Otherwise DWS is the one who will take heat for this, as evidenced by how she just had to step down from her position.

Hillary wont suffer from the fuckery of DWS, as evidenced by the last 50-something cases of DWS trying to tip the scales in Hillary's favor

Hillary doesn't have to be involved. She's the face of the establishment, and if the establishmemt isn't doing too hot right about now.

Maybe for the GOP its not. For Dems though it seems to be doing alright since last time I checked, Hillary became the nominee, not Bernie

Yeah, they only needed to collude against him to make sure that happened.

They put debates on days a lot of people wouldnt see them and TALKED about talking points that could be brought up against him..... If Bernie really lost the primary because of those two things, then he is too incompetent to be the nominee in the first place......
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
1harderthanyouthink
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7/25/2016 12:57:40 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 12:49:17 AM, imabench wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:46:50 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:45:13 AM, imabench wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:41:48 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:36:22 AM, imabench wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:25:35 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

Her election requires the support of the vast majority of Sanders supporters. Some uptick in hostility can cost her the election.

Then point to where Hillary was involved in any of this apart from being the one who benefits off of it..... Hillary didnt order this hit on Bernie, and anyone who knows anything about DWS knows she almost assuredly would do this on her own without having to have Hillary pressure or even ask her. Unless Hillary ordered the DNC or asked the DNC to put pressure on Bernie, THEN there would be hostility against her. Otherwise DWS is the one who will take heat for this, as evidenced by how she just had to step down from her position.

Hillary wont suffer from the fuckery of DWS, as evidenced by the last 50-something cases of DWS trying to tip the scales in Hillary's favor

Hillary doesn't have to be involved. She's the face of the establishment, and if the establishmemt isn't doing too hot right about now.

Maybe for the GOP its not. For Dems though it seems to be doing alright since last time I checked, Hillary became the nominee, not Bernie

Yeah, they only needed to collude against him to make sure that happened.

They put debates on days a lot of people wouldnt see them and TALKED about talking points that could be brought up against him..... If Bernie really lost the primary because of those two things, then he is too incompetent to be the nominee in the first place......

If they told media (CNN, MSNBC, etc) to prioritize Sanders over Clinton, to sandbag Clinton, and be hostile in interviews to Clinton - it would be much different. Media has a harrowing grip over the opinions of the population - in the US and elsewhere. I could show you another example that has been magnified lately, but w/e. Media control is an insane advantage.

A CNN panelist on The Situation Room, today, said that DWS should be celebrated and thought there shouldn't be outrage. She sounded like a politician - perhaps becuase much of the mainstream media "journalists" are just as much politicians as candidates themselves - and for more on that, watch John Stewart's recent take on Sean Hannity.

And millions of people eat that sh!t up.
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7/25/2016 12:58:47 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 12:46:02 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:35:07 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:25:35 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:14:18 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:07:06 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:55:54 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:50:36 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/24/2016 11:40:45 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think this is a bit of a different situation than the RNC, where there was no collusion against the top losing candidate revealed a day prior - quite the opposite - but anyway...

I think it's pretty similar. The hatred that the anti-Trump movement had was really and serious, and if those delegate could overcome that, then I don't see why our delegates couldn't overcome a "surprise" release that surprised literally no one. Any delegate who found the contents of the uncovered emails to be shocking new info has been living under a rock for the past 6-8 months. It's pretty much new fuel added to an old flame, and so I don't think it will be *that* interesting or energizing for delegates, because everyone already knew what was going on. The fact that it is now confirmed makes little difference.

It's one thing for Bernie to tell his supporters that DWS is against him. It's a much, much, bigger thing to have it all proven in print and on TV. You're vastly underestimating this.

I would say you're vastly overestimating this, largely because of how much you dislike both DWS and Clinton, and how passionate you are for left-of-center values, which Clinton is certainly not a good standard-bearer for.

I don't think having it in print changes much at all for a very simple reason. When you and a bunch of other people know a secret (it's an open secret), it is not very interesting or surprising to you when that secret is formally revealed to you. You already knew, so it's not like you've learned anything new at all. Same old, same old. Sure, there might be some uptick in hostility towards Clinton, but I doubt it will be significant.

Her election requires the support of the vast majority of Sanders supporters. Some uptick in hostility can cost her the election. This isn't an issue of bias - that's insulting downplay. She is struggling to pull ahead of Donald. J. Trump. Her unpopularity turns Pennsylvania into a swing state. And...party instability before the convention doesn't mean anything? Get real.

Firstly, calm down. Secondly, I said only that I think you are overestimating the uptick in anti-Clinton feeling this will cause among the delegates. I confined my analysis merely to the convention floor, not the broader electoral map. Redirecting the discussion to the broader electoral map misapplies my analysis by removing it from its context, so I generally find everything that you said problematic, because it misrepresents what I actually claimed.

What you said ignored the realities of the election, then.

No it didn't. You engaged in a fallacious scope-shift, which is why there is confusion.

I was talking only about how I thought DELEGATES at the convention would behave and react, not supporters in general. The DELEGATES will not rebel or create a ruckus at the DNC, for all the reasons I've stated previously, and because their is likely to be only a small uptick in hostility among them which won't change much about the status quo on the convention floor.

My argument was this: Yes, if the convention is a mess--fighting on TV, boos, etc.--then it would be a disaster for Clinton. But the convention will not be a mess, so it will not be a disaster.

For some inexplicable reason, you seem to have misinterpreted my argument as: No, if the convention is a mess--fighting on TV, boos, etc.--then it will not be a disaster for Clinton. But this was *never* what I said, and grossly misrepresents the point I was making.

I wasn't talking about whether or not Sanders supporters would vote for her or not based on these "revelations." What I was talking about was how delegates on the convention floor might respond to news of the emails, and how that may impact the orderliness of the convention itself.

Her issues with Sanders supporters as a whole are distinct from any issues with Sanders delegates, specifically. I seriously doubt, for all the reasons I just mentioned, there will be any kerfuffles on the floor of the DNC; at least, there will be nothing major.

Sanders delegates and average supporters tend to be just as hostile to the establishment.

Delegates tend to be more party-loyal than average voters and more politically involved; average voters, including Sanderistas, are often independents or only infrequently active in politics. Even if some delegates are new to the scene, many have been lifelong democrats who, however much they hate the establishment, will value party unity above making a fuss over Clinton, esp. when they understand her inevitability as the nominee and the high stakes of defeating Trump. For many delegates on the fence, Sander's endorsement will push them into the "reluctantly compliant" camp as they go through the DNC. There will also be immense pressure on them to get in line at the DNC from other delegates and from political leaders, like Warren and Sanders, whom they respect.

The bottom line: Sanders delegates are a different demographic from Sanders voters. While they may be similar, there are differences that ought to be remembered. Sanders delegates are probably less apt to make a scene on national TV at the DNC than a Sander's supporter is apt to not vote Hillary. Therefore, I bet that the DNC will run relatively smoothly, and the convention itself won't be a disaster for Hillary.
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