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Rational discourse on what the problems are!

Ramshutu
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7/25/2016 10:15:10 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
From a Thread with YYW; just yelling at each other, and calling each other stupid is neither productive, nor conducive to any form of intellectual discourse. So, I said this:

I have a challenge for you though.

Lets set up a thread; no hostility; no "you're wrong, I'm right"; no you vs me (I'm getting pretty sick of it from both left AND right). No one calls anyone stupid; no one assumes they're right. Instead lets actually have a intelligent, thoughtful thread that discusses what the problems with America, and the world actually are. Lets start off by agreeing the facts, and see where we get?

So, lets see if we can actually agree what the most pressing problems are.

I am focusing on the particular things that are a direct substantive impact on peoples lives; and not necessarily their causes (we can talk about causes afterwards). These categories are rather broad to start of the discussion; we can obviously get more specific later.

From what I can see, we have 3 major, broad problems that are tangibly effecting individuals in the USA.

1.) We feel less safe.

Both from Islamic Terrorism, shootings, crime, and also there are a substantial number of black people that feel less safe with regards to interactions with police.

We can discuss whether feels less safe is occurring because we areless safe later, but right now it's pretty self evident that a lot of what is happening is because of feelings.

2.) We are less financially secure, and the economy isn't looking great.

The economy has been growing, and many jobs have been added to the economy. However, the jobs that have been added are not as well paid as the jobs that have been lost. Middle and low income earners are worse off in real terms then they were years ago; and in many industries there feels like there is much less job security than there was before. The U.S. now has more debt compared to it's GDP than it has at any other point in history with the exception of during WW2.

3.) Political discourse has become poisonous.

The level of political discourse between both parties has gotten so bad, it appears both sides can do little else but blame the other for being out-of-touch-divisive-insane-idiots. Congress gives the impression that unlike 10-20 years ago, where both sides could often work together, now it appears that both sides view it almost as an act of treason if there is any co-operation.

The left has moved further left, and the right has moved further right, and the number of true centrists appears to have decreased, lending itself to a fractious, and at times, literally insane; where anything even suggested by the other side is viewed as idiotic, evil, selfish, stupid, etc; and railed against with a level of vitriol I don't think I have ever seen before.

Are there more? Have I forgotten a major theme or issue?
Semiya
Posts: 405
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7/25/2016 10:41:52 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Outside of social issues, like gay marriage and abortion, how has the left moved further left?
Ramshutu
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7/25/2016 11:28:02 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 10:41:52 PM, Semiya wrote:
Outside of social issues, like gay marriage and abortion, how has the left moved further left?

Well, you named a couple of them!

Aside from that, immigration reform, much more in the way of federal regulation of banks and business, priority on minimum wage, and addressing of inequality; for the first time someone espousing free tuition, and declares himself a democratic socialist didn't come too far off being made a major party candidate..

There are others, and the nuance and strength to which these are held, are quite important; and I think most commentators agree with my sentiment. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

What's important, is that it's not necessarily that the idea's you hear become more liberal; just that a larger percentage of people support them.
Axon85
Posts: 137
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7/26/2016 12:43:20 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 10:15:10 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
From a Thread with YYW; just yelling at each other, and calling each other stupid is neither productive, nor conducive to any form of intellectual discourse. So, I said this:


I have a challenge for you though.

Lets set up a thread; no hostility; no "you're wrong, I'm right"; no you vs me (I'm getting pretty sick of it from both left AND right). No one calls anyone stupid; no one assumes they're right. Instead lets actually have a intelligent, thoughtful thread that discusses what the problems with America, and the world actually are. Lets start off by agreeing the facts, and see where we get?


So, lets see if we can actually agree what the most pressing problems are.

I am focusing on the particular things that are a direct substantive impact on peoples lives; and not necessarily their causes (we can talk about causes afterwards). These categories are rather broad to start of the discussion; we can obviously get more specific later.



From what I can see, we have 3 major, broad problems that are tangibly effecting individuals in the USA.

1.) We feel less safe.

Both from Islamic Terrorism, shootings, crime, and also there are a substantial number of black people that feel less safe with regards to interactions with police.

We can discuss whether feels less safe is occurring because we areless safe later, but right now it's pretty self evident that a lot of what is happening is because of feelings.


I think feel is the key word. As dangerous and violent as the world may appear, global violence has been deceasing historically. In the US, violent crime has been dropping over the last several decades (despite the slight uptick over the last year). It seems to me that both the left and right engage in their share of fear mongering. One's chances of being murdered by a terrorist or a police officer are, in reality, incredibly small. From a purely statistical standpoint, there are many more subtle dangers that we face on daily basis that do not register on our radar of concerns given their mundane nature. We know from psychological studies that people overestimate the occurrences of shocking, emotional events, but that is all news ever reports - this can easily result in the illusion of increasing danger.

3.) Political discourse has become poisonous.

The level of political discourse between both parties has gotten so bad, it appears both sides can do little else but blame the other for being out-of-touch-divisive-insane-idiots. Congress gives the impression that unlike 10-20 years ago, where both sides could often work together, now it appears that both sides view it almost as an act of treason if there is any co-operation.

The left has moved further left, and the right has moved further right, and the number of true centrists appears to have decreased, lending itself to a fractious, and at times, literally insane; where anything even suggested by the other side is viewed as idiotic, evil, selfish, stupid, etc; and railed against with a level of vitriol I don't think I have ever seen before.


I agree that this is a serious problem. It's one thing to disagree with somebody in terms of policy, but manichaen thinking by which the opposition is vilified has significantly poisoned the sociopolitical climate. Both left and right want to claim not only the moral but also the rational highground. However, studies routinely show that both liberals and conservatives engage in motivated reasoning, confirmation bias, science denial and a host of other cognitive 'bugs' in defense of their views. The behavior of both liberals and conservatives appears to be getting more tribal and I would even say religious. Just like religion, there is a set of sacred beliefs & values that unite each camp. These values often exist independent of facts, with the latter being subservient to the former. If the foundational beliefs are falsified then the 'religion' crumbles, thus anyone who challenges these 'sacred' beliefs is engaging in 'blasphemy', and is subsequently demonized. This seems to be default human behavior and I am not sure how best to change it.
Ramshutu
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7/26/2016 12:51:01 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 12:43:20 AM, Axon85 wrote:
At 7/25/2016 10:15:10 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
From a Thread with YYW; just yelling at each other, and calling each other stupid is neither productive, nor conducive to any form of intellectual discourse. So, I said this:


I have a challenge for you though.

Lets set up a thread; no hostility; no "you're wrong, I'm right"; no you vs me (I'm getting pretty sick of it from both left AND right). No one calls anyone stupid; no one assumes they're right. Instead lets actually have a intelligent, thoughtful thread that discusses what the problems with America, and the world actually are. Lets start off by agreeing the facts, and see where we get?


So, lets see if we can actually agree what the most pressing problems are.

I am focusing on the particular things that are a direct substantive impact on peoples lives; and not necessarily their causes (we can talk about causes afterwards). These categories are rather broad to start of the discussion; we can obviously get more specific later.



From what I can see, we have 3 major, broad problems that are tangibly effecting individuals in the USA.

1.) We feel less safe.

Both from Islamic Terrorism, shootings, crime, and also there are a substantial number of black people that feel less safe with regards to interactions with police.

We can discuss whether feels less safe is occurring because we areless safe later, but right now it's pretty self evident that a lot of what is happening is because of feelings.


I think feel is the key word. As dangerous and violent as the world may appear, global violence has been deceasing historically. In the US, violent crime has been dropping over the last several decades (despite the slight uptick over the last year). It seems to me that both the left and right engage in their share of fear mongering. One's chances of being murdered by a terrorist or a police officer are, in reality, incredibly small. From a purely statistical standpoint, there are many more subtle dangers that we face on daily basis that do not register on our radar of concerns given their mundane nature. We know from psychological studies that people overestimate the occurrences of shocking, emotional events, but that is all news ever reports - this can easily result in the illusion of increasing danger.

I chose the word deliberately; as right now, I think the problem is the feelings. As you say.

3.) Political discourse has become poisonous.

The level of political discourse between both parties has gotten so bad, it appears both sides can do little else but blame the other for being out-of-touch-divisive-insane-idiots. Congress gives the impression that unlike 10-20 years ago, where both sides could often work together, now it appears that both sides view it almost as an act of treason if there is any co-operation.

The left has moved further left, and the right has moved further right, and the number of true centrists appears to have decreased, lending itself to a fractious, and at times, literally insane; where anything even suggested by the other side is viewed as idiotic, evil, selfish, stupid, etc; and railed against with a level of vitriol I don't think I have ever seen before.


I agree that this is a serious problem. It's one thing to disagree with somebody in terms of policy, but manichaen thinking by which the opposition is vilified has significantly poisoned the sociopolitical climate. Both left and right want to claim not only the moral but also the rational highground. However, studies routinely show that both liberals and conservatives engage in motivated reasoning, confirmation bias, science denial and a host of other cognitive 'bugs' in defense of their views. The behavior of both liberals and conservatives appears to be getting more tribal and I would even say religious. Just like religion, there is a set of sacred beliefs & values that unite each camp. These values often exist independent of facts, with the latter being subservient to the former. If the foundational beliefs are falsified then the 'religion' crumbles, thus anyone who challenges these 'sacred' beliefs is engaging in 'blasphemy', and is subsequently demonized. This seems to be default human behavior and I am not sure how best to change it.

I completely agree with this assessment here, and while I invite people to disagree and explain; for my own sanity I think it may be possible to change if in at least our tiny part of the world.

This thread isn't just for YYW, btw, but anyone who is willing to actually have a conversation and wants to disagree without deteriorating into name calling. It may do that, but you don't know until you try!
Greyparrot
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7/26/2016 12:52:02 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 12:51:01 AM, Ramshutu wrote:

This thread isn't just for YYW, btw, but anyone who is willing to actually have a conversation and wants to disagree without deteriorating into name calling. It may do that, but you don't know until you try!

Ughhh...I don't disagree...
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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7/26/2016 12:59:19 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
The biggest issue is definitely heterogeneity.

The "house" is "divided against itself."
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Greyparrot
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7/26/2016 1:01:14 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 12:59:19 AM, someloser wrote:
The biggest issue is definitely heterogeneity.

The "house" is "divided against itself."

What does "American" even mean anymore?
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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7/26/2016 1:02:02 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 1:01:14 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/26/2016 12:59:19 AM, someloser wrote:
The biggest issue is definitely heterogeneity.

The "house" is "divided against itself."

What does "American" even mean anymore?
Literally paperwork. They hand it out like gumballs anyway.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,250
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7/26/2016 1:03:08 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 1:02:02 AM, someloser wrote:
At 7/26/2016 1:01:14 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/26/2016 12:59:19 AM, someloser wrote:
The biggest issue is definitely heterogeneity.

The "house" is "divided against itself."

What does "American" even mean anymore?
Literally paperwork. They hand it out like gumballs anyway.

That's sad. Our Culture has become an actual footnote already.
Ramshutu
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7/26/2016 2:00:05 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 12:59:19 AM, someloser wrote:
The biggest issue is definitely heterogeneity.

The "house" is "divided against itself."

Do you think that both sides bear responsibility for that?
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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7/26/2016 2:00:40 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 2:00:05 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 7/26/2016 12:59:19 AM, someloser wrote:
The biggest issue is definitely heterogeneity.

The "house" is "divided against itself."

Do you think that both sides bear responsibility for that?
Left and right? Totally.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Ramshutu
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7/26/2016 2:00:48 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 12:52:02 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/26/2016 12:51:01 AM, Ramshutu wrote:

This thread isn't just for YYW, btw, but anyone who is willing to actually have a conversation and wants to disagree without deteriorating into name calling. It may do that, but you don't know until you try!

Ughhh...I don't disagree...

Have I missed anything out? Do you think that these are the three biggest problems facing the US at the moment? Or are there others?
Ramshutu
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7/26/2016 2:03:03 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 2:00:40 AM, someloser wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:00:05 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 7/26/2016 12:59:19 AM, someloser wrote:
The biggest issue is definitely heterogeneity.

The "house" is "divided against itself."

Do you think that both sides bear responsibility for that?
Left and right? Totally.

Out of interest, where do you place yourself on the political spectrum (or spectrums?)
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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7/26/2016 2:06:33 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 2:03:03 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:00:40 AM, someloser wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:00:05 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 7/26/2016 12:59:19 AM, someloser wrote:
The biggest issue is definitely heterogeneity.

The "house" is "divided against itself."

Do you think that both sides bear responsibility for that?
Left and right? Totally.

Out of interest, where do you place yourself on the political spectrum (or spectrums?)
Far right on plenty of issues, third way or left in others. Compass tests tend to place me slightly right-of-center.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Ramshutu
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7/26/2016 2:09:09 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 2:06:33 AM, someloser wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:03:03 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:00:40 AM, someloser wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:00:05 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 7/26/2016 12:59:19 AM, someloser wrote:
The biggest issue is definitely heterogeneity.

The "house" is "divided against itself."

Do you think that both sides bear responsibility for that?
Left and right? Totally.

Out of interest, where do you place yourself on the political spectrum (or spectrums?)
Far right on plenty of issues, third way or left in others. Compass tests tend to place me slightly right-of-center.

Can I ask which of the generally big issues you're left and right on? (I'm genuinely interested, I'm not asking a trick question).
someloser
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7/26/2016 2:12:51 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 2:09:09 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
Can I ask which of the generally big issues you're left and right on? (I'm genuinely interested, I'm not asking a trick question).
Immigration and nationalism, for the right. Environmental and certain economic ones for the left. (Is distributism considered left-wing?)

Don't know where direct democracy plots.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Ramshutu
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7/26/2016 2:16:52 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 2:12:51 AM, someloser wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:09:09 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
Can I ask which of the generally big issues you're left and right on? (I'm genuinely interested, I'm not asking a trick question).
Immigration and nationalism, for the right. Environmental and certain economic ones for the left. (Is distributism considered left-wing?)

Don't know where direct democracy plots.

Can I ask what you consider your own nationalistic tendencies to be? I mean, when you say you're on the right for nationalism, what does that mean to you?
someloser
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7/26/2016 2:17:54 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 2:16:52 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:12:51 AM, someloser wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:09:09 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
Can I ask which of the generally big issues you're left and right on? (I'm genuinely interested, I'm not asking a trick question).
Immigration and nationalism, for the right. Environmental and certain economic ones for the left. (Is distributism considered left-wing?)

Don't know where direct democracy plots.

Can I ask what you consider your own nationalistic tendencies to be? I mean, when you say you're on the right for nationalism, what does that mean to you?
I support ethnic nationalism. That is, countries (or fairly sovereign political entities - whatever you want to call them) should be ethnically homogeneous.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Ramshutu
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7/26/2016 2:19:23 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 2:17:54 AM, someloser wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:16:52 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:12:51 AM, someloser wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:09:09 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
Can I ask which of the generally big issues you're left and right on? (I'm genuinely interested, I'm not asking a trick question).
Immigration and nationalism, for the right. Environmental and certain economic ones for the left. (Is distributism considered left-wing?)

Don't know where direct democracy plots.

Can I ask what you consider your own nationalistic tendencies to be? I mean, when you say you're on the right for nationalism, what does that mean to you?
I support ethnic nationalism. That is, countries (or fairly sovereign political entities - whatever you want to call them) should be ethnically homogeneous.

So what would that be for the US? Would that mean white?
someloser
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7/26/2016 2:21:08 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 2:19:23 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
So what would that be for the US? Would that mean white?
No, whites are not an ethnically homogeneous group. Italians are not Germans are not Jews.

The US has been heterogeneous for way too long for ethnic cleansing to be justifiable.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Ramshutu
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7/26/2016 2:23:21 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 2:21:08 AM, someloser wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:19:23 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
So what would that be for the US? Would that mean white?
No, whites are not an ethnically homogeneous group. Italians are not Germans are not Jews.

The US has been heterogeneous for way too long for ethnic cleansing to be justifiable.

I'm just trying to understand what you mean. What is the Ethnicity of the US that you want to be homogenous in?
someloser
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7/26/2016 2:26:26 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 2:23:21 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
I'm just trying to understand what you mean. What is the Ethnicity of the US that you want to be homogenous in?
Any, really. But, of course, the US as it exists today cannot be "made" into a homogeneous country.

So partition or or Swiss-style decentralization would be good enough.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Ramshutu
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7/26/2016 2:32:21 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 2:26:26 AM, someloser wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:23:21 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
I'm just trying to understand what you mean. What is the Ethnicity of the US that you want to be homogenous in?
Any, really. But, of course, the US as it exists today cannot be "made" into a homogeneous country.

So partition or or Swiss-style decentralization would be good enough.

I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I just don't think I fully understand what you mean.

How about this, could you give me an example of some legislation or changes relevant to your "ethnic nationalism" that you would support?
someloser
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7/26/2016 2:53:37 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 2:32:21 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:26:26 AM, someloser wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:23:21 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
I'm just trying to understand what you mean. What is the Ethnicity of the US that you want to be homogenous in?
Any, really. But, of course, the US as it exists today cannot be "made" into a homogeneous country.

So partition or or Swiss-style decentralization would be good enough.

I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I just don't think I fully understand what you mean.
It's alright.

How about this, could you give me an example of some legislation or changes relevant to your "ethnic nationalism" that you would support?
A moratorium on immigration, for one, to avoid contributing to heterogeneity. Aside from that, facilitating secession or strengthening inter-state borders would be good.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
KendoRe2
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7/26/2016 2:57:15 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Black people are poor and they aren't putting up with it anymore. They've basically told white people they are coming for their cars, theirs jobs, their homes, their iPhones, etc. White man has had his time, it's time for blacks to have it good.

Thats all it comes down to.
Ramshutu
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7/26/2016 2:57:54 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 2:53:37 AM, someloser wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:32:21 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:26:26 AM, someloser wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:23:21 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
I'm just trying to understand what you mean. What is the Ethnicity of the US that you want to be homogenous in?
Any, really. But, of course, the US as it exists today cannot be "made" into a homogeneous country.

So partition or or Swiss-style decentralization would be good enough.

I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I just don't think I fully understand what you mean.
It's alright.

How about this, could you give me an example of some legislation or changes relevant to your "ethnic nationalism" that you would support?
A moratorium on immigration, for one, to avoid contributing to heterogeneity.

Well, I'm sure you can imagine that some immigration has benefits; I for example, am a software/RF testing export; with probably about 1000 or people in the world that now how to do my Job. I was doing the job I was doing in the UK, so I've not taken anyones job, and I'm now contributing to tax.

I can also imagine that there are many detailed job shortages and benefits from immigration; from high tech developers, engineers, scientists, to people skilled in the arts, or potentially entrepreneurs willing to invest money,.

Can I ask what it is about heterogeneity that the tiny change heterogeneity causes in respect to current American demographics that is so bad that it outweighs those specific benefits?

Aside from that, facilitating secession or strengthening inter-state borders would be good.

Are you intimating that many individual states would be better off on their own as separate countries?
KendoRe2
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7/26/2016 3:00:25 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 2:57:54 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:53:37 AM, someloser wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:32:21 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:26:26 AM, someloser wrote:
At 7/26/2016 2:23:21 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
I'm just trying to understand what you mean. What is the Ethnicity of the US that you want to be homogenous in?
Any, really. But, of course, the US as it exists today cannot be "made" into a homogeneous country.

So partition or or Swiss-style decentralization would be good enough.

I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I just don't think I fully understand what you mean.
It's alright.

How about this, could you give me an example of some legislation or changes relevant to your "ethnic nationalism" that you would support?
A moratorium on immigration, for one, to avoid contributing to heterogeneity.

Well, I'm sure you can imagine that some immigration has benefits; I for example, am a software/RF testing export; with probably about 1000 or people in the world that now how to do my Job. I was doing the job I was doing in the UK, so I've not taken anyones job, and I'm now contributing to tax.

I can also imagine that there are many detailed job shortages and benefits from immigration; from high tech developers, engineers, scientists, to people skilled in the arts, or potentially entrepreneurs willing to invest money,.

Can I ask what it is about heterogeneity that the tiny change heterogeneity causes in respect to current American demographics that is so bad that it outweighs those specific benefits?

Aside from that, facilitating secession or strengthening inter-state borders would be good.

Are you intimating that many individual states would be better off on their own as separate countries?

Blacks better move North. They all live in the South
bballcrook21
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7/26/2016 3:20:10 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 10:41:52 PM, Semiya wrote:
Outside of social issues, like gay marriage and abortion, how has the left moved further left?

Economics. It used to be "government cannot hinder your progress but can help along the way" to "if you're successful that's bad and you must lose money to others".
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
Semiya
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7/26/2016 12:20:50 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 11:28:02 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 10:41:52 PM, Semiya wrote:
Outside of social issues, like gay marriage and abortion, how has the left moved further left?

Well, you named a couple of them!

Aside from that, immigration reform, much more in the way of federal regulation of banks and business, priority on minimum wage, and addressing of inequality; for the first time someone espousing free tuition, and declares himself a democratic socialist didn't come too far off being made a major party candidate..

What do you mean? With Glass-Stegal gutted and Dodd-Frank doing f*ck-all, there's very little shift to the left going on. Sanders would have given America what every other developed country has - a genuine left - but he failed. Now I expect his ideas to live on and transform the party over the next 20 years or so, but for now, we still have a centrist party and a right-wing party.

There are others, and the nuance and strength to which these are held, are quite important; and I think most commentators agree with my sentiment. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

It's widely recognized that America and the Overton Window have been shifting steadily to the right since the 70s, minus the social issues which no one really cares about.

What's important, is that it's not necessarily that the idea's you hear become more liberal; just that a larger percentage of people support them.