Total Posts:92|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Who actually thinks Donald Trump is smart?

Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/31/2016 11:19:46 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
I just don't get it. Every time I hear him speak all I think about are the people who are listening to him apparently thinking "wow, what great insight". I find this especially telling when you look at any response he gives to any important question... ever. Here is how he responded to the bombings at the airport in Turkey:

"Many many people killed, many many people injured... Folks, there is something going on that is really really bad. It"s bad, and we had better get smart, and we better get tough, or we are not going to have much of a country left. It"s bad."

This is typical Trump. Do you know any intelligent well informed person who speaks like this? He sounds like he is talking to third graders. Here is Trumps response to the Orlando Shootings:

"Look, we"re led by a man that either is not tough, not smart, or he"s got something else in mind. And the something else in mind " you know, people can"t believe it... People cannot, they cannot believe that President Obama is acting the way he acts and can"t even mention the words "radical Islamic terrorism." There"s something going on. It"s inconceivable."

And Trump on the police shootings in Dallas:

"I mean, you know, I watched the president and sometimes the words are okay. But you just look at the body language. There's something going on. Look, there"s something going on and the words are not often okay, by the way... There's just a bad feeling, a lot of bad feeling about him. I see it too. There's a lot of bad feeling about him. We have a country that has not been like this since I can remember it."

Conspiracy implications aside, the man has absolutely no clue what to say, no informed insight to offer, no hint of a solution or plan of action of any kind, and no leadership in how we should interpret these events other than "be afraid". Folks, this is all Donald Trump has to offer. When a person speaks they are giving you an insight into how they think, what on earth would make any rational person believe that these statements are the product of an intelligent and well informed mind?
sadolite
Posts: 8,839
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/31/2016 11:32:18 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/31/2016 11:19:46 PM, Double_R wrote:
I just don't get it. Every time I hear him speak all I think about are the people who are listening to him apparently thinking "wow, what great insight". I find this especially telling when you look at any response he gives to any important question... ever. Here is how he responded to the bombings at the airport in Turkey:

"Many many people killed, many many people injured... Folks, there is something going on that is really really bad. It"s bad, and we had better get smart, and we better get tough, or we are not going to have much of a country left. It"s bad."

This is typical Trump. Do you know any intelligent well informed person who speaks like this? He sounds like he is talking to third graders. Here is Trumps response to the Orlando Shootings:

"Look, we"re led by a man that either is not tough, not smart, or he"s got something else in mind. And the something else in mind " you know, people can"t believe it... People cannot, they cannot believe that President Obama is acting the way he acts and can"t even mention the words "radical Islamic terrorism." There"s something going on. It"s inconceivable."

And Trump on the police shootings in Dallas:

"I mean, you know, I watched the president and sometimes the words are okay. But you just look at the body language. There's something going on. Look, there"s something going on and the words are not often okay, by the way... There's just a bad feeling, a lot of bad feeling about him. I see it too. There's a lot of bad feeling about him. We have a country that has not been like this since I can remember it."

Conspiracy implications aside, the man has absolutely no clue what to say, no informed insight to offer, no hint of a solution or plan of action of any kind, and no leadership in how we should interpret these events other than "be afraid". Folks, this is all Donald Trump has to offer. When a person speaks they are giving you an insight into how they think, what on earth would make any rational person believe that these statements are the product of an intelligent and well informed mind?

Donald Trump is smarter than you, so I have to consider the source calling him dumb. You waste your time on a website calling people dumb who you have never met or dealt with on a personal or direct level what could be dumber than that. Don't take it personally. He is smart enough to know that you can't give details until you know the extent of the damage first and that the element of surprise is how you win wars.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
evanjfarrar
Posts: 8
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/31/2016 11:32:19 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
I don't necessarily think he is smart, but we cannot take his words at face value. His followers legitimately believe what he is saying, but none of us can ever know whether he truly believes what he is saying, or knows that what he says is often utterly false. It is a question worth asking when thinking about voting for him.
someloser
Posts: 1,377
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/31/2016 11:54:40 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/31/2016 11:19:46 PM, Double_R wrote:
I just don't get it. Every time I hear him speak all I think about are the people who are listening to him apparently thinking "wow, what great insight".
You won't "get" Trump's supposed cleverness by listening to him speak (particularly on the election trail) and taking it at face value (that is, the way journalists and pundits are taking it).

If you actually want to know what makes Trump "smart", look at his actions in the social context of the time and place. More specifically, look at things he said prior to running (like that old Oprah interview).

Journalists and pundits - being the irredeemable, credulous idiots they are - insist on treating Trump's behavior as if it were totally "natural" for him. Like this is him "at his best" or whatever. Which only shows how completely lost they are.

It's a bit like the media in general. You can learn about a society by looking at it, but as a presentation rather than a window.

I find this especially telling when you look at any response he gives to any important question... ever. Here is how he responded to the bombings at the airport in Turkey:

"Many many people killed, many many people injured... Folks, there is something going on that is really really bad. It"s bad, and we had better get smart, and we better get tough, or we are not going to have much of a country left. It"s bad."

This is typical Trump.
No, this is "typical Trump" on the election trail. Read what he's written or said prior, on other venues.

Trump's behavior is a presentation. It's like "reality" TV, or les Etats' media in general.

Stupid people think it's "real".

Conspiracy implications aside, the man has absolutely no clue what to say, no informed insight to offer, no hint of a solution or plan of action of any kind, and no leadership in how we should interpret these events other than "be afraid". Folks, this is all Donald Trump has to offer.
This is what Trump is offering. The idea that he's transgressing beltway convention sans any actual effort or intent on his part is so dumb I can't even make fun of it.

When a person speaks they are giving you an insight into how they think, what on earth would make any rational person believe that these statements are the product of an intelligent and well informed mind?
Yeah this is pretty much sums up OP's problems. That which is actively demonstrated != that which actually is.

Politics in the US are like professional wrestling. Stupid people think they're "real".
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/31/2016 11:59:17 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/31/2016 11:32:18 PM, sadolite wrote:
Donald Trump is smarter than you, so I have to consider the source calling him dumb.

No, that's not how intelligent discourse works (another thing Trump doesn't understand).

When someone makes a point, the way to refute the point is to respond to the substance of what they just said, not to turn around and childishly attack the person who said it.

He is smart enough to know that you can't give details until you know the extent of the damage first and that the element of surprise is how you win wars.

This is hillarious. You're talking about the same guy who alleged that Ted Cruz's Father was in on the JFK assasination, then when pressed on how he knows this responded "all I know is what's on the internet". I mean, really?

And few things irritate me more than this "element of surprise" argument. It is a blatant excuse for Trump's ignorance on what's going on in the world and unwillingness to learn anything about it. He claims he has a "secret" plan to defeat Isis and yet he is so ignorant on the middle east that he doesn't even know the difference between Hamas and Hezbollah. But that's ok I guess. "Believe me".
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,314
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 12:02:45 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/31/2016 11:59:17 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 7/31/2016 11:32:18 PM, sadolite wrote:
Donald Trump is smarter than you, so I have to consider the source calling him dumb.

No, that's not how intelligent discourse works (another thing Trump doesn't understand).

Maybe not smarter than you, but certainly smarter than all the other primary wannabes.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 12:10:00 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/31/2016 11:54:40 PM, someloser wrote:
At 7/31/2016 11:19:46 PM, Double_R wrote:
I just don't get it. Every time I hear him speak all I think about are the people who are listening to him apparently thinking "wow, what great insight".
You won't "get" Trump's supposed cleverness by listening to him speak (particularly on the election trail) and taking it at face value (that is, the way journalists and pundits are taking it).

If you actually want to know what makes Trump "smart", look at his actions in the social context of the time and place. More specifically, look at things he said prior to running (like that old Oprah interview).

Journalists and pundits - being the irredeemable, credulous idiots they are - insist on treating Trump's behavior as if it were totally "natural" for him. Like this is him "at his best" or whatever. Which only shows how completely lost they are.

This has nothing to do with the media (and it figures that a Trump supporter would try to make it that). This is about what Trump demonstrates every single time he opens his mouth. Yes "the media" are the ones who bring his comments to our living rooms, they are not the ones who utter them.

"Many many people killed, many many people injured... Folks, there is something going on that is really really bad. It"s bad, and we had better get smart, and we better get tough, or we are not going to have much of a country left. It"s bad."

This is typical Trump.
No, this is "typical Trump" on the election trail. Read what he's written or said prior, on other venues.

Trump's behavior is a presentation. It's like "reality" TV, or les Etats' media in general.

Stupid people think it's "real".

That's complete nonsense. Smart people don't pretend to be stupid, especially when they are running for president.

I don't care what Trump has written because I have no reason to believe that anything intelligent you can point to was written by him. Just look at his twitter account.

If you have any examples of something intelligent he has ever said I would love to hear it, not that this will make up for all of the stupid we have gotten from him over the past year.
sadolite
Posts: 8,839
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 12:12:52 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/31/2016 11:54:40 PM, someloser wrote:
At 7/31/2016 11:19:46 PM, Double_R wrote:
I just don't get it. Every time I hear him speak all I think about are the people who are listening to him apparently thinking "wow, what great insight".
You won't "get" Trump's supposed cleverness by listening to him speak (particularly on the election trail) and taking it at face value (that is, the way journalists and pundits are taking it).

If you actually want to know what makes Trump "smart", look at his actions in the social context of the time and place. More specifically, look at things he said prior to running (like that old Oprah interview).

Journalists and pundits - being the irredeemable, credulous idiots they are - insist on treating Trump's behavior as if it were totally "natural" for him. Like this is him "at his best" or whatever. Which only shows how completely lost they are.

It's a bit like the media in general. You can learn about a society by looking at it, but as a presentation rather than a window.

I find this especially telling when you look at any response he gives to any important question... ever. Here is how he responded to the bombings at the airport in Turkey:

"Many many people killed, many many people injured... Folks, there is something going on that is really really bad. It"s bad, and we had better get smart, and we better get tough, or we are not going to have much of a country left. It"s bad."

This is typical Trump.
No, this is "typical Trump" on the election trail. Read what he's written or said prior, on other venues.

Trump's behavior is a presentation. It's like "reality" TV, or les Etats' media in general.

Stupid people think it's "real".

Conspiracy implications aside, the man has absolutely no clue what to say, no informed insight to offer, no hint of a solution or plan of action of any kind, and no leadership in how we should interpret these events other than "be afraid". Folks, this is all Donald Trump has to offer.
This is what Trump is offering. The idea that he's transgressing beltway convention sans any actual effort or intent on his part is so dumb I can't even make fun of it.

When a person speaks they are giving you an insight into how they think, what on earth would make any rational person believe that these statements are the product of an intelligent and well informed mind?
Yeah this is pretty much sums up OP's problems. That which is actively demonstrated != that which actually is.

Politics in the US are like professional wrestling. Stupid people think they're "real".

BUMP x10
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
sadolite
Posts: 8,839
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 12:17:47 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/1/2016 12:02:45 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/31/2016 11:59:17 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 7/31/2016 11:32:18 PM, sadolite wrote:
Donald Trump is smarter than you, so I have to consider the source calling him dumb.

No, that's not how intelligent discourse works (another thing Trump doesn't understand).

Maybe not smarter than you, but certainly smarter than all the other primary wannabes.

"No, that's not how intelligent discourse works (another thing Trump doesn't understand).'

The context of the statement was left out. Context, something many people don't understand. If one gives it context then my statement stands as true and correct.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
someloser
Posts: 1,377
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 12:20:19 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/1/2016 12:10:00 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 7/31/2016 11:54:40 PM, someloser wrote:
At 7/31/2016 11:19:46 PM, Double_R wrote:
I just don't get it. Every time I hear him speak all I think about are the people who are listening to him apparently thinking "wow, what great insight".
You won't "get" Trump's supposed cleverness by listening to him speak (particularly on the election trail) and taking it at face value (that is, the way journalists and pundits are taking it).

If you actually want to know what makes Trump "smart", look at his actions in the social context of the time and place. More specifically, look at things he said prior to running (like that old Oprah interview).

Journalists and pundits - being the irredeemable, credulous idiots they are - insist on treating Trump's behavior as if it were totally "natural" for him. Like this is him "at his best" or whatever. Which only shows how completely lost they are.

This has nothing to do with the media (and it figures that a Trump supporter would try to make it that).
It has everything to do with the media. Why do you think Trump acts the way he does as a candidate? Why doesn't he act the way he acted in old interviews?

Could it be that he's catering to a different audience? Could it be that he's noticed the sort of coverage his comments invoke? Could it be that what we see on the news and TV is not a window to reality, but rather a carefully curated presentation (if not by the media itself, then its subjects)?

This is about what Trump demonstrates every single time he opens his mouth. Yes "the media" are the ones who bring his comments to our living rooms, they are not the ones who utter them.
That's the entire point.

"Many many people killed, many many people injured... Folks, there is something going on that is really really bad. It"s bad, and we had better get smart, and we better get tough, or we are not going to have much of a country left. It"s bad."

This is typical Trump.
No, this is "typical Trump" on the election trail. Read what he's written or said prior, on other venues.

Trump's behavior is a presentation. It's like "reality" TV, or les Etats' media in general.

Stupid people think it's "real".

That's complete nonsense. Smart people don't pretend to be stupid, especially when they are running for president.
And why wouldn't they? It's working out great for Trump.

I don't care what Trump has written because I have no reason to believe that anything intelligent you can point to was written by him. Just look at his twitter account.
Look at old interviews. The idea that Trump (or anyone) is really just as he shows up on TV is absurd.

If you have any examples of something intelligent he has ever said I would love to hear it, not that this will make up for all of the stupid we have gotten from him over the past year.
Neither I nor anyone cares about your (naive, simplistic, subjective) criteria of what constitutes "intelligent" or not. All I'm pointing out is that insisting that public figures are as they appear is childish gullibility.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,314
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 12:31:26 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/1/2016 12:20:19 AM, someloser wrote:

Could it be that he's catering to a different audience? Could it be that he's noticed the sort of coverage his comments invoke? Could it be that what we see on the news and TV is not a window to reality, but rather a carefully curated presentation (if not by the media itself, then its subjects)?

The recent hullabaloo over the credibility of the SPEECHWRITERS for the Trump and Obama ladies shows exactly how farcical the politics of showmanship have become.
P. T. Barnum would be proud.

It's like going to a college lecture and caring more about the color of paint on the walls than the actual lecture...
someloser
Posts: 1,377
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 12:32:22 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
And for the record, I don't think Trump is very smart. But he's certainly smarter than average, and smart enough to get his opponents on the media to do his bidding.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 12:55:23 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/1/2016 12:10:00 AM, Double_R wrote:

That's complete nonsense. Smart people don't pretend to be stupid, especially when they are running for president.

Lol, it's such a classical political ploy that it's in Hamlet, when he puts on an 'antic disposition'. In fact, if I could sum up Trump in one line, it would be Polonius's doubtful aside 'though this be madness, yet there is method in't.' Mark Antony does the same before his famous speech in Caesar. There's an essay that mentions Neville Chamberlain in relationship to this point which I rather like:

'It used to be thought a disadvantage to be misunderstood. It may be doubted whether it is always or even generally a disadvantage. The man who is misunderstood has always this advantage over his enemies, that they do not know his weak point or his plan of campaign. They go out against a bird with nets and against a fish with arrows. There are several modern examples of this situation. Mr. Chamberlain, for instance, is a very good one. He constantly eludes or vanquishes his opponents because his real powers and deficiencies are quite different to those with which he is credited, both by friends and foes. His friends depict him as a strenuous man of action; his opponents depict him as a coarse man of business; when, as a fact, he is neither one nor the other, but an admirable romantic orator and romantic actor. He has one power which is the soul of melodrama--the power of pretending, even when backed by a huge majority, that he has his back to the wall. For all mobs are so far chivalrous that their heroes must make some show of misfortune -- that sort of hypocrisy is the homage that strength pays to weakness. He talks foolishly and yet very finely about his own city that has never deserted him. He wears a flaming and fantastic flower, like a decadent minor poet. As for his bluffness and toughness and appeals to common sense, all that is, of course, simply the first trick of rhetoric. He fronts his audiences with the venerable affectation of Mark Antony--

"I am no orator, as Brutus is;
But as you know me all, a plain blunt man."

It is the whole difference between the aim of the orator and the aim of any other artist, such as the poet or the sculptor. The aim of the sculptor is to convince us that he is a sculptor; the aim of the orator, is to convince us that he is not an orator. Once let Mr. Chamberlain be mistaken for a practical man, and his game is won.'
- Mr. Bernard Shaw, G. K. Chesterton -

Being underestimated can end up conferring strategic advantage in many cases.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Fly
Posts: 2,047
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 2:07:51 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
As Shakespeare wrote, "This fellow is wise enough to play the fool." With that in mind, Trump is either too wise for his own good... or he isn't playing:

http://finance.yahoo.com...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 2:55:20 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/1/2016 12:20:19 AM, someloser wrote:
At 8/1/2016 12:10:00 AM, Double_R wrote:
This has nothing to do with the media (and it figures that a Trump supporter would try to make it that).
It has everything to do with the media. Why do you think Trump acts the way he does as a candidate? Why doesn't he act the way he acted in old interviews?

He did, that's why many of his old comments are coming back to bite him now. The difference is that no one gave a crap before. No one cares what a real estate developer thinks about woman's rights, or immigration, etc.

Could it be that he's catering to a different audience? Could it be that he's noticed the sort of coverage his comments invoke? Could it be that what we see on the news and TV is not a window to reality, but rather a carefully curated presentation (if not by the media itself, then its subjects)?

I don't know what it is about Trump supporters that makes you guys think Trump's idiocy is all a creation by the media. Stupid comments are stupid comments, it doesn't matter how people heard about them. The media is not some entity that has a mind of it's own. The media is us, fellow human beings covering stories that other human beings will care about. They cover Trump's idiocy because people like myself are fascinated by what an idiot he shows himself to be. It's not the media that manipulates what people see. It's the people that manipulate what the media covers.

This is about what Trump demonstrates every single time he opens his mouth. Yes "the media" are the ones who bring his comments to our living rooms, they are not the ones who utter them.
That's the entire point.

I didn't catch a point.

That's complete nonsense. Smart people don't pretend to be stupid, especially when they are running for president.
And why wouldn't they? It's working out great for Trump.

lol! Well thanks at least for admitting that the character we see in front of us is an idiot. Now if only you could present a coherent argument to support the notion that Trump really is smart and is just acting like an idiot to win the election.

I don't care what Trump has written because I have no reason to believe that anything intelligent you can point to was written by him. Just look at his twitter account.
Look at old interviews. The idea that Trump (or anyone) is really just as he shows up on TV is absurd.

Everyone puts forward a different side of themselves when conducting an interview. What people don't do is intentionally and continually present themselves as more ignorant then they actually are as some sort of plot to manipulate the minds of people into thinking that they are qualified for holding office.

If you have any examples of something intelligent he has ever said I would love to hear it, not that this will make up for all of the stupid we have gotten from him over the past year.
Neither I nor anyone cares about your (naive, simplistic, subjective) criteria of what constitutes "intelligent" or not. All I'm pointing out is that insisting that public figures are as they appear is childish gullibility.

Complete strawman. This isn't a question of character, it's a question of competence.

In your cartoonish version of reality the way to convince people that you are competent is to show yourself to be incompetent so that people will be able to recognize that your incompetence is really just an act and vote for you because they recognize that you really are competent for coming up with this genius plot.

I find this very amusing. You are not the first Trump supporter to give me this argument. It's like you guys all look at Trump and go "Ha! Look at him convincing all the stupid people that he's really one of them. What a genius!" And then you ask the Trump supporters to point to the stupid people and they all point to each other. At that moment, I would realize that something is wrong.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 3:13:00 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
I can imagine a scenario in which trump is president, his speech is as woefully inarticulate as ever, and his supporters still insist that its all a brilliant facade ... and they'd happily carry that delusion to their graves.

I yearn for the trump supporter who just admits a few basic facts. Donald Trump is not particularly smart or informed on matters of policy. Donald Trump is impetuous and undisciplined. Donald Trump makes statements that are false or deceptive more frequently than Hillary Clinton. Donald Trump makes mistakes; not all that he does is part of an elaborate political calculation.

If you hate Washington, want a massive disruption to the status quo come what may, and don't care at all about any of those personal flaws, that's your prerogative. But let's all come back to reality -- let's acknowledge facts for what they are.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,750
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 6:06:07 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/1/2016 3:13:00 AM, 000ike wrote:
I can imagine a scenario in which trump is president, his speech is as woefully inarticulate as ever, and his supporters still insist that its all a brilliant facade ... and they'd happily carry that delusion to their graves.

I yearn for the trump supporter who just admits a few basic facts. Donald Trump is not particularly smart or informed on matters of policy. Donald Trump is impetuous and undisciplined. Donald Trump makes statements that are false or deceptive more frequently than Hillary Clinton. Donald Trump makes mistakes; not all that he does is part of an elaborate political calculation.

If you hate Washington, want a massive disruption to the status quo come what may, and don't care at all about any of those personal flaws, that's your prerogative. But let's all come back to reality -- let's acknowledge facts for what they are.

+1

I understand people want Trump because they are angry at the establishment. But, at least admit to Trump's many many flaws and imperfections. Most Clinton supporters have a realistic idea of what she is like, unlike Trump supporters who think he is a God.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 7:16:22 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/1/2016 3:13:00 AM, 000ike wrote:
I can imagine a scenario in which trump is president, his speech is as woefully inarticulate as ever, and his supporters still insist that its all a brilliant facade ... and they'd happily carry that delusion to their graves.

I yearn for the trump supporter who just admits a few basic facts. Donald Trump is not particularly smart or informed on matters of policy. Donald Trump is impetuous and undisciplined. Donald Trump makes statements that are false or deceptive more frequently than Hillary Clinton. Donald Trump makes mistakes; not all that he does is part of an elaborate political calculation.

If you hate Washington, want a massive disruption to the status quo come what may, and don't care at all about any of those personal flaws, that's your prerogative. But let's all come back to reality -- let's acknowledge facts for what they are.

I would like Trump critics to admit that Trump didn't just bumble his way through a crowded primary to victory and cause a political upheaval by blind chance. But no, that would deflate their all-important self-perception as aloof, erudite observers of the political arena.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,750
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 9:27:14 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/31/2016 11:19:46 PM, Double_R wrote:
I just don't get it. Every time I hear him speak all I think about are the people who are listening to him apparently thinking "wow, what great insight". I find this especially telling when you look at any response he gives to any important question... ever. Here is how he responded to the bombings at the airport in Turkey:

"Many many people killed, many many people injured... Folks, there is something going on that is really really bad. It"s bad, and we had better get smart, and we better get tough, or we are not going to have much of a country left. It"s bad."

This is typical Trump. Do you know any intelligent well informed person who speaks like this? He sounds like he is talking to third graders. Here is Trumps response to the Orlando Shootings:

"Look, we"re led by a man that either is not tough, not smart, or he"s got something else in mind. And the something else in mind " you know, people can"t believe it... People cannot, they cannot believe that President Obama is acting the way he acts and can"t even mention the words "radical Islamic terrorism." There"s something going on. It"s inconceivable."

And Trump on the police shootings in Dallas:

"I mean, you know, I watched the president and sometimes the words are okay. But you just look at the body language. There's something going on. Look, there"s something going on and the words are not often okay, by the way... There's just a bad feeling, a lot of bad feeling about him. I see it too. There's a lot of bad feeling about him. We have a country that has not been like this since I can remember it."

Conspiracy implications aside, the man has absolutely no clue what to say, no informed insight to offer, no hint of a solution or plan of action of any kind, and no leadership in how we should interpret these events other than "be afraid". Folks, this is all Donald Trump has to offer. When a person speaks they are giving you an insight into how they think, what on earth would make any rational person believe that these statements are the product of an intelligent and well informed mind?

Donald Trump probably has average intelligence. He is not a moron, but definitely is not smart. His brain is not that bigly.

What makes him an "idiot" in my opinion is his overconfidence and lack of intellectual curiosity. Someone of average intelligence who admits that they do not know the answer, and takes time to learn can do alright. Someone who will not present a solution but is confident that "he alone can solve", is dangerous and will fuuck up.
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,750
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 9:31:59 PM
Posted: 4 months ago

I would like Trump critics to admit that Trump didn't just bumble his way through a crowded primary to victory and cause a political upheaval by blind chance. But no, that would deflate their all-important self-perception as aloof, erudite observers of the political arena.

Trump's victory did not take skill. Any blowhard can fearmonger & pander their way to a primary win. What takes skill is presenting actual solutions and Trump has not done that.

Do you think it took a lot of skill for George Bush to scare everyone into thinking the War in Iraq was a good idea? Presenting good solutions takes skill, not pandering so people vote for bad solutions.
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,750
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 9:35:47 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/1/2016 9:07:08 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I wonder how much Trump reads in his spare time, if at all. Like, does this man even read books?

I heard the reason he never reads is because, as a child, when he would hold a book people would make fun of his midget sized fingers. He developed a phobia of reading and learning because of this. People have been reporting that and I am starting to come around to thinking it is true.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 9:59:57 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/1/2016 7:16:22 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 8/1/2016 3:13:00 AM, 000ike wrote:
I can imagine a scenario in which trump is president, his speech is as woefully inarticulate as ever, and his supporters still insist that its all a brilliant facade ... and they'd happily carry that delusion to their graves.

I yearn for the trump supporter who just admits a few basic facts. Donald Trump is not particularly smart or informed on matters of policy. Donald Trump is impetuous and undisciplined. Donald Trump makes statements that are false or deceptive more frequently than Hillary Clinton. Donald Trump makes mistakes; not all that he does is part of an elaborate political calculation.

If you hate Washington, want a massive disruption to the status quo come what may, and don't care at all about any of those personal flaws, that's your prerogative. But let's all come back to reality -- let's acknowledge facts for what they are.

I would like Trump critics to admit that Trump didn't just bumble his way through a crowded primary to victory and cause a political upheaval by blind chance. But no, that would deflate their all-important self-perception as aloof, erudite observers of the political arena.

He very clearly did bumble his way through that primary ... and he caused an upheaval not by chance, but by auspicious circumstances. No brilliant tactician can be as undisciplined as he is. He would be favored to win the election by now if knew how and when to keep his mouth shut .... so don't tell me that everything that has transpired is in accordance with some mythical master plan or that this man who can't articulate a coherent or nuanced opinion on anything, who probably hasn't written anything at length or read any piece at length in a long time, saw farther than everyone else in media, government, or what have you.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
someloser
Posts: 1,377
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 10:03:54 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/1/2016 2:55:20 AM, Double_R wrote:
He did, that's why many of his old comments are coming back to bite him now. The difference is that no one gave a crap before. No one cares what a real estate developer thinks about woman's rights, or immigration, etc.
OP misses the point yet again.

Contrast his '88 interview on Oprah, with his presidential announcement. Demeanor is completely different.

Could it be that he's catering to a different audience? Could it be that he's noticed the sort of coverage his comments invoke? Could it be that what we see on the news and TV is not a window to reality, but rather a carefully curated presentation (if not by the media itself, then its subjects)?

I don't know what it is about Trump supporters that makes you guys think Trump's idiocy is all a creation by the media.
No clue where you got that idea. I've never said as much.

Next time, try to respond to things I've actually said. The voices in your head can wait.

Stupid comments are stupid comments, it doesn't matter how people heard about them.
You're not paying attention.

When people know that they are surrounded by large outlets with wide audiences, do you seriously think there will be no alteration to their behavior?

The media is not some entity that has a mind of it's own. The media is us, fellow human beings covering stories that other human beings will care about.
Incredibly naive. What else to expect from someone who thinks reality TV is real.

They cover Trump's idiocy because people like myself are fascinated by what an idiot he shows himself to be. It's not the media that manipulates what people see. It's the people that manipulate what the media covers.
It's not the media making shjt up or whatever. Dear Lord. It's Trump altering his behavior in light of the media. This isn't so hard to understand.

This is about what Trump demonstrates every single time he opens his mouth. Yes "the media" are the ones who bring his comments to our living rooms, they are not the ones who utter them.
That's the entire point.

I didn't catch a point.
I can tell.

lol! Well thanks at least for admitting that the character we see in front of us is an idiot. Now if only you could present a coherent argument to support the notion that
You already got an argument. Not my fault you don't get it.

Everyone puts forward a different side of themselves when conducting an interview.
Finally.

What people don't do is intentionally and continually present themselves as more ignorant then they actually are as some sort of plot to manipulate the minds of people into thinking that they are qualified for holding office.
There's no "manipulation". Everyone puts on a persona for the media. Politicians or the politically involved in particular.

It really isn't hard to understand.

If you have any examples of something intelligent he has ever said I would love to hear it, not that this will make up for all of the stupid we have gotten from him over the past year.
Neither I nor anyone cares about your (naive, simplistic, subjective) criteria of what constitutes "intelligent" or not. All I'm pointing out is that insisting that public figures are as they appear is childish gullibility.

Complete strawman. This isn't a question of character, it's a question of competence.

In your cartoonish version of reality the way to convince people that you are competent is to show yourself to be incompetent so that people will be able to recognize that your incompetence is really just an act and vote for you because they recognize that you really are competent for coming up with this genius plot.
No, try reading what I actually said this time. I never said he's trying to convince people he's some crypto-genius (or that he's very smart at all).

My argument is:
1. The way Trump presents himself on the election trial is not an accident. That is, not un-intentional (if not a facade in its entirety).
2. The idea that a businessman with a history on reality TV is truly "being himself", while knowing he is surrounded by national media on the daily, is so obviously ridiculous that I don't understand why OP needs to have this spoon-fed to them repeatedly.

Believe it or not, reality TV and politics aren't "real".

I find this very amusing. You are not the first Trump supporter to give me this argument. It's like you guys all look at Trump and go "Ha! Look at him convincing all the stupid people that he's really one of them. What a genius!" And then you ask the Trump supporters to point to the stupid people and they all point to each other. At that moment, I would realize that something is wrong.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 10:30:08 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/1/2016 8:00:59 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Vote for the stupid devil, or the crooked devil.

The lesser of 2 Devils.

But is Clinton really so bad? This woman had a national approval rating of 69% at the end of her term as secretary of state in 2013 -- there was no figure in the democratic party (or republican party for that matter) more formidable than she. What happened? The GOP launched an aggressive and coordinated campaign to defame her ... they were not able to show any (real) wrong doing on her part in the benghazi hearings and literally the worst (real) offense that came out of the e-mail scandal is that she was slightly more irresponsible than her predecessors in her handling of official government communications and that she has lied to the American public at a rate no worse than the average politician. This is to say nothing of the unfounded attacks and conspiracy theories that sprung from 'clinton cash' and that were readily accepted by the trump campaign, spiteful conservatives and bernie fanatics who wanted their candidate to win.

She lacks all the personal attributes that might endear her to the public, so it was relatively easy to convert her into a 'bogeywoman'. It's probably one of the most systematic and stunningly successful attempts at character assassination in American history.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
someloser
Posts: 1,377
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2016 10:34:02 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/1/2016 10:30:08 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/1/2016 8:00:59 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Vote for the stupid devil, or the crooked devil.

The lesser of 2 Devils.

But is Clinton really so bad?
She's not particularly bad by beltway standards. But still bad.

This woman had a national approval rating of 69% at the end of her term as secretary of state in 2013 -- there was no figure in the democratic party (or republican party for that matter) more formidable than she. What happened? The GOP launched an aggressive and coordinated campaign to defame her ... they were not able to show any (real) wrong doing on her part in the benghazi hearings and literally the worst (real) offense that came out of the e-mail scandal is that she was slightly more irresponsible than her predecessors in her handling of official government communications and that she has lied to the American public at a rate no worse than the average politician. This is to say nothing of the unfounded attacks and conspiracy theories that sprung from 'clinton cash' and that were readily accepted by the trump campaign, spiteful conservatives and bernie fanatics who wanted their candidate to win.

She lacks all the personal attributes that might endear her to the public, so it was relatively easy to convert her into a 'bogeywoman'. It's probably one of the most systematic and stunningly successful attempts at character assassination in American history.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,251
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/2/2016 12:09:28 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/1/2016 10:30:08 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/1/2016 8:00:59 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Vote for the stupid devil, or the crooked devil.

The lesser of 2 Devils.

But is Clinton really so bad? This woman had a national approval rating of 69% at the end of her term as secretary of state in 2013 -- there was no figure in the democratic party (or republican party for that matter) more formidable than she. What happened? The GOP launched an aggressive and coordinated campaign to defame her ... they were not able to show any (real) wrong doing on her part in the benghazi hearings and literally the worst (real) offense that came out of the e-mail scandal is that she was slightly more irresponsible than her predecessors in her handling of official government communications and that she has lied to the American public at a rate no worse than the average politician. This is to say nothing of the unfounded attacks and conspiracy theories that sprung from 'clinton cash' and that were readily accepted by the trump campaign, spiteful conservatives and bernie fanatics who wanted their candidate to win.

She lacks all the personal attributes that might endear her to the public, so it was relatively easy to convert her into a 'bogeywoman'. It's probably one of the most systematic and stunningly successful attempts at character assassination in American history.

Clinton is bad because Reddit says so.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/2/2016 12:44:05 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/1/2016 10:03:54 PM, someloser wrote:
At 8/1/2016 2:55:20 AM, Double_R wrote:
Complete strawman. This isn't a question of character, it's a question of competence.

In your cartoonish version of reality the way to convince people that you are competent is to show yourself to be incompetent so that people will be able to recognize that your incompetence is really just an act and vote for you because they recognize that you really are competent for coming up with this genius plot.
No, try reading what I actually said this time. I never said he's trying to convince people he's some crypto-genius (or that he's very smart at all).

My argument is:
1. The way Trump presents himself on the election trial is not an accident. That is, not un-intentional (if not a facade in its entirety).
2. The idea that a businessman with a history on reality TV is truly "being himself", while knowing he is surrounded by national media on the daily, is so obviously ridiculous that I don't understand why OP needs to have this spoon-fed to them repeatedly.

Believe it or not, reality TV and politics aren't "real".

You haven't responded to nor it seems even paid attention to the point of this discussion or this thread.

I have repeatedly agreed with you that politicians present a "persona" of themselves for the camera's in their efforts to win votes. That has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion and it never has.

What I am and have been talking about, is the ridiculous notion that Trump is intentionally acting like an idiot when he is really an intelligent and well informed candidate. I have made this point several times, each time you ignore it and focus on your strawman argument (as the above clearly demonstrates to any rational person who cares to read it).

This is not complicated. Do you believe Donald Trump is purposely and intentionally making himself look less intelligent and more ignorant than he actually is. Yes or No?