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Should Liberals get tough on Islam?

tajshar2k
Posts: 2,377
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8/4/2016 3:29:05 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Despite being in support of LGBT Rights, Seperation of Church and State. I find that liberals seem to not care or are very lenient on Islam and muslims when they commit offenses that would go against liberal beliefs.

Should liberals get more tough on Islam?

thoughts?
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
lannan13
Posts: 23,017
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8/4/2016 3:44:45 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 3:41:57 PM, Semiya wrote:
Yes
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Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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8/4/2016 4:49:10 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Yes. Otherwise it will continue to be the religion of special needs forever and never evolve. Our tollerance would enable it to continue to be disfunctional and backwards in its thinking.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

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desmac
Posts: 5,078
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8/4/2016 4:56:48 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 3:29:05 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Despite being in support of LGBT Rights, Seperation of Church and State. I find that liberals seem to not care or are very lenient on Islam and muslims when they commit offenses that would go against liberal beliefs.

Should liberals get more tough on Islam?

thoughts?

I think that all liberals and all conservatives should be equally tough on people who kill other people in the name of fairy tale characters.
justsayinalot
Posts: 78
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8/4/2016 5:38:45 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 3:29:05 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Despite being in support of LGBT Rights, Seperation of Church and State. I find that liberals seem to not care or are very lenient on Islam and muslims when they commit offenses that would go against liberal beliefs.

Should liberals get more tough on Islam?

thoughts?

What do you mean by "get more tough on Islam"? Condemn the religion itself or specific people within the religion? And if you are talking about the religion itself, are you talking about 'radical Islam' (which really isn't Islam) or actual Islam?
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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8/4/2016 5:59:30 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 4:56:48 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/4/2016 3:29:05 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Despite being in support of LGBT Rights, Seperation of Church and State. I find that liberals seem to not care or are very lenient on Islam and muslims when they commit offenses that would go against liberal beliefs.

Should liberals get more tough on Islam?

thoughts?

I think that all liberals and all conservatives should be equally tough on people who kill other people in the name of fairy tale characters.
bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
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8/4/2016 6:11:07 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 3:29:05 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Despite being in support of LGBT Rights, Seperation of Church and State. I find that liberals seem to not care or are very lenient on Islam and muslims when they commit offenses that would go against liberal beliefs.

Should liberals get more tough on Islam?

yes

thoughts?
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tajshar2k
Posts: 2,377
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8/4/2016 6:27:06 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 5:38:45 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 3:29:05 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Despite being in support of LGBT Rights, Seperation of Church and State. I find that liberals seem to not care or are very lenient on Islam and muslims when they commit offenses that would go against liberal beliefs.

Should liberals get more tough on Islam?

thoughts?

What do you mean by "get more tough on Islam"? Condemn the religion itself or specific people within the religion? And if you are talking about the religion itself, are you talking about 'radical Islam' (which really isn't Islam) or actual Islam?

There is no such thing as "real" Islam. Also, it's pretty much impossible to just fault the religion. The people are the ones who choose to act up on it.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
justsayinalot
Posts: 78
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8/4/2016 6:38:30 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 6:27:06 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 8/4/2016 5:38:45 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 3:29:05 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Despite being in support of LGBT Rights, Seperation of Church and State. I find that liberals seem to not care or are very lenient on Islam and muslims when they commit offenses that would go against liberal beliefs.
Should liberals get more tough on Islam?

thoughts?
What do you mean by "get more tough on Islam"? Condemn the religion itself or specific people within the religion? And if you are talking about the religion itself, are you talking about 'radical Islam' (which really isn't Islam) or actual Islam?

There is no such thing as "real" Islam. Also, it's pretty much impossible to just fault the religion. The people are the ones who choose to act up on it.
First, would you say someone is of a religion if they use their religion to justify killing people and oppressing other religious/ethnic groups while others within their religion don't use it in this way? I would say that isn't what religion is about, which is why I used the phrase "actual Islam."
Also, could you give an example of these offenses from those who practice Islam that go against liberal beliefs?
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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8/4/2016 6:41:21 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 6:38:30 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:27:06 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 8/4/2016 5:38:45 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 3:29:05 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Despite being in support of LGBT Rights, Seperation of Church and State. I find that liberals seem to not care or are very lenient on Islam and muslims when they commit offenses that would go against liberal beliefs.
Should liberals get more tough on Islam?

thoughts?
What do you mean by "get more tough on Islam"? Condemn the religion itself or specific people within the religion? And if you are talking about the religion itself, are you talking about 'radical Islam' (which really isn't Islam) or actual Islam?

There is no such thing as "real" Islam. Also, it's pretty much impossible to just fault the religion. The people are the ones who choose to act up on it.
First, would you say someone is of a religion if they use their religion to justify killing people and oppressing other religious/ethnic groups while others within their religion don't use it in this way? I would say that isn't what religion is about, which is why I used the phrase "actual Islam."
Also, could you give an example of these offenses from those who practice Islam that go against liberal beliefs?

Are you asking for specifics because you don't think Islam has aspects that are against liberal beliefs, or because you want a better understanding of what the OP means?
justsayinalot
Posts: 78
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8/4/2016 6:49:41 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 6:41:21 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:38:30 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:27:06 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 8/4/2016 5:38:45 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 3:29:05 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Despite being in support of LGBT Rights, Seperation of Church and State. I find that liberals seem to not care or are very lenient on Islam and muslims when they commit offenses that would go against liberal beliefs.
Should liberals get more tough on Islam?

thoughts?
What do you mean by "get more tough on Islam"? Condemn the religion itself or specific people within the religion? And if you are talking about the religion itself, are you talking about 'radical Islam' (which really isn't Islam) or actual Islam?

There is no such thing as "real" Islam. Also, it's pretty much impossible to just fault the religion. The people are the ones who choose to act up on it.
First, would you say someone is of a religion if they use their religion to justify killing people and oppressing other religious/ethnic groups while others within their religion don't use it in this way? I would say that isn't what religion is about, which is why I used the phrase "actual Islam."
Also, could you give an example of these offenses from those who practice Islam that go against liberal beliefs?

Are you asking for specifics because you don't think Islam has aspects that are against liberal beliefs, or because you want a better understanding of what the OP means?

I just want clarification on what we're discussing (sharia law, for example). There are various ways we can go with this conversation.
I don't doubt that any religion can go against liberal views/beliefs (conservative Christians have already proven this).
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,674
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8/4/2016 7:09:05 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 3:29:05 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Despite being in support of LGBT Rights, Seperation of Church and State. I find that liberals seem to not care or are very lenient on Islam and muslims when they commit offenses that would go against liberal beliefs.

Should liberals get more tough on Islam?

thoughts?

Define "getting tough"
"Change your sig."
~YYW
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,377
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8/4/2016 7:45:23 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 6:38:30 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:27:06 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 8/4/2016 5:38:45 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 3:29:05 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Despite being in support of LGBT Rights, Seperation of Church and State. I find that liberals seem to not care or are very lenient on Islam and muslims when they commit offenses that would go against liberal beliefs.
Should liberals get more tough on Islam?

thoughts?
What do you mean by "get more tough on Islam"? Condemn the religion itself or specific people within the religion? And if you are talking about the religion itself, are you talking about 'radical Islam' (which really isn't Islam) or actual Islam?

There is no such thing as "real" Islam. Also, it's pretty much impossible to just fault the religion. The people are the ones who choose to act up on it.
First, would you say someone is of a religion if they use their religion to justify killing people and oppressing other religious/ethnic groups while others within their religion don't use it in this way? I would say that isn't what religion is about, which is why I used the phrase "actual Islam."

Why do you say that? Why do you purposely choose the peaceful interpretation as the "actual" Islam? Also it isn't just killing people, it's much more than just that.

Also, could you give an example of these offenses from those who practice Islam that go against liberal beliefs?

Opposing Gay Marriage (vast majority oppose it)
Supporting to kill Gays (DP legal for this in most of the middle-east)
Support forcing their religion on others ( Vast majority of middle-eastern countries)
Murdering people because they have different views (Charlie Hebdo attacks and thousands of other attacks that happen in the developing world.)
Bringing religion in politics and government (Most middle-east countries)
Forcing women to cover their faces and body (Most middle-east countries)
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,377
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8/4/2016 7:46:01 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 7:09:05 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/4/2016 3:29:05 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Despite being in support of LGBT Rights, Seperation of Church and State. I find that liberals seem to not care or are very lenient on Islam and muslims when they commit offenses that would go against liberal beliefs.

Should liberals get more tough on Islam?

thoughts?

Define "getting tough"

If something is against their liberal views, they should condemn it, instead of acting like its' not a problem.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
Torton
Posts: 988
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8/4/2016 8:22:38 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Obviously. It's absolutely insane the lengths people go to defend the desecration of proper liberal values under the guise of tolerance.
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,674
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8/4/2016 8:40:59 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 7:46:01 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 8/4/2016 7:09:05 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/4/2016 3:29:05 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Despite being in support of LGBT Rights, Seperation of Church and State. I find that liberals seem to not care or are very lenient on Islam and muslims when they commit offenses that would go against liberal beliefs.

Should liberals get more tough on Islam?

thoughts?

Define "getting tough"

If something is against their liberal views, they should condemn it, instead of acting like its' not a problem.

Wouldn't that mean condemning literally every other ideology (Conservatives, Libertarians, Communists et cetera)?
"Change your sig."
~YYW
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,377
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8/4/2016 8:49:35 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 8:40:59 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/4/2016 7:46:01 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 8/4/2016 7:09:05 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/4/2016 3:29:05 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Despite being in support of LGBT Rights, Seperation of Church and State. I find that liberals seem to not care or are very lenient on Islam and muslims when they commit offenses that would go against liberal beliefs.

Should liberals get more tough on Islam?

thoughts?

Define "getting tough"

If something is against their liberal views, they should condemn it, instead of acting like its' not a problem.

Wouldn't that mean condemning literally every other ideology (Conservatives, Libertarians, Communists et cetera)?

I'm pretty sure they already do that.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,674
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8/4/2016 9:00:39 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 8:49:35 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 8/4/2016 8:40:59 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/4/2016 7:46:01 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 8/4/2016 7:09:05 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/4/2016 3:29:05 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Despite being in support of LGBT Rights, Seperation of Church and State. I find that liberals seem to not care or are very lenient on Islam and muslims when they commit offenses that would go against liberal beliefs.

Should liberals get more tough on Islam?

thoughts?

Define "getting tough"

If something is against their liberal views, they should condemn it, instead of acting like its' not a problem.

Wouldn't that mean condemning literally every other ideology (Conservatives, Libertarians, Communists et cetera)?

I'm pretty sure they already do that.

Censorship on the basis of disagreement is quintessentially against liberal values. So the rhetoric of "getting tough" is self defeating.
"Change your sig."
~YYW
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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8/4/2016 9:07:47 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Not Islam, Muslims.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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8/4/2016 9:12:54 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 9:00:39 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/4/2016 8:49:35 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 8/4/2016 8:40:59 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/4/2016 7:46:01 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 8/4/2016 7:09:05 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/4/2016 3:29:05 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Despite being in support of LGBT Rights, Seperation of Church and State. I find that liberals seem to not care or are very lenient on Islam and muslims when they commit offenses that would go against liberal beliefs.

Should liberals get more tough on Islam?

thoughts?

Define "getting tough"

If something is against their liberal views, they should condemn it, instead of acting like its' not a problem.

Wouldn't that mean condemning literally every other ideology (Conservatives, Libertarians, Communists et cetera)?

I'm pretty sure they already do that.

Censorship on the basis of disagreement is quintessentially against liberal values. So the rhetoric of "getting tough" is self defeating.

Getting tough doesn't mean censorship, as far as I can tell. It seems to mean speaking out against. In that regard, the OP definitely has a point. "Liberals" are almost universally very outspoken against ideologies that conflict with their values, until it comes to Islam. I think that has to do with the conflation of attacking Islam and attacking Muslims, though. Criticism of Islam deemed to be racist and bigoted, for some reason.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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8/4/2016 9:15:11 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 9:07:47 PM, someloser wrote:
Not Islam, Muslims.

You get long-term, positive results by attacking ideas, not people. It is precisely the attacks on Muslims rather than Islam that leads to liberals' knee-jerk reaction to defend Islam.
Peter-S
Posts: 1
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8/4/2016 9:21:10 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
We have 10K troops in Afghanistan, we have 5K troops in Iran and Syria. We are using drones and our air force ACTIVELY in and all areas of the Middle East and Northern Africa. It was just announced that a Ranger group is engaged in a battle in Libya.

How much tougher are we suppose to be?
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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8/4/2016 9:26:10 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 9:15:11 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 8/4/2016 9:07:47 PM, someloser wrote:
Not Islam, Muslims.

You get long-term, positive results by attacking ideas, not people.
Not here. The entire problem with Muslims and the West isn't caused by Islam in a vacuum.

Why don't Polish Tatars run around killing people?

The entire idea that Islamic radicalization will be stopped by "attacks on ideas" is a joke.

It is precisely the attacks on Muslims rather than Islam that leads to liberals' knee-jerk reaction to defend Islam.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,377
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8/4/2016 9:56:40 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 9:00:39 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/4/2016 8:49:35 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 8/4/2016 8:40:59 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/4/2016 7:46:01 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 8/4/2016 7:09:05 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/4/2016 3:29:05 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Despite being in support of LGBT Rights, Seperation of Church and State. I find that liberals seem to not care or are very lenient on Islam and muslims when they commit offenses that would go against liberal beliefs.

Should liberals get more tough on Islam?

thoughts?

Define "getting tough"

If something is against their liberal views, they should condemn it, instead of acting like its' not a problem.

Wouldn't that mean condemning literally every other ideology (Conservatives, Libertarians, Communists et cetera)?

I'm pretty sure they already do that.

Censorship on the basis of disagreement is quintessentially against liberal values. So the rhetoric of "getting tough" is self defeating.

Disagreement and Censorship are too different things.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
KendoRe2
Posts: 126
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8/4/2016 10:05:14 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Muslims are brown (vast majority) so technically Liberals have to ignore anythjng bad a Muslim does. Instead they say white people just misunderstand them.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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8/4/2016 10:20:22 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 9:26:10 PM, someloser wrote:
At 8/4/2016 9:15:11 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 8/4/2016 9:07:47 PM, someloser wrote:
Not Islam, Muslims.

You get long-term, positive results by attacking ideas, not people.
Not here. The entire problem with Muslims and the West isn't caused by Islam in a vacuum.

Why don't Polish Tatars run around killing people?

The entire idea that Islamic radicalization will be stopped by "attacks on ideas" is a joke.

It is precisely the attacks on Muslims rather than Islam that leads to liberals' knee-jerk reaction to defend Islam.

You have to attack more ideas than just Islam to solve the problem, but you do have to stick to ideas. Attacking Muslims is exactly what the radicals want. That's how they recruit. Attacking Muslims is how you cause more terrorism.
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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8/4/2016 10:22:06 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 10:20:22 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 8/4/2016 9:26:10 PM, someloser wrote:
At 8/4/2016 9:15:11 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 8/4/2016 9:07:47 PM, someloser wrote:
Not Islam, Muslims.

You get long-term, positive results by attacking ideas, not people.
Not here. The entire problem with Muslims and the West isn't caused by Islam in a vacuum.

Why don't Polish Tatars run around killing people?

The entire idea that Islamic radicalization will be stopped by "attacks on ideas" is a joke.

It is precisely the attacks on Muslims rather than Islam that leads to liberals' knee-jerk reaction to defend Islam.

You have to attack more ideas than just Islam to solve the problem, but you do have to stick to ideas. Attacking Muslims is exactly what the radicals want. That's how they recruit. Attacking Muslims is how you cause more terrorism.
Who said anything about attacking? My idea of "getting tough" is sealing the borders.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Hayd
Posts: 4,022
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8/4/2016 10:57:29 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 3:29:05 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
Despite being in support of LGBT Rights, Seperation of Church and State. I find that liberals seem to not care or are very lenient on Islam and muslims when they commit offenses that would go against liberal beliefs.

Should liberals get more tough on Islam?

thoughts?

I don't think that liberal are soft on terrorism in the first place. Its absurd to think that we should become *tough* on Islam, as Islam is one of the world's largest reglions. Muslims are just as peaceful, kind, charitable, patriotic, etc. as any other person. Becoming tough on Islam rather than Christianity, or Judaism, or whatever doesn't make any sense. Why Islam and not Christianity? An american is seven times more likely to be killed by an evangelical extremist than an islamic extremist
http://thinkprogress.org...

It doesn't make sense to target Muslims, its just a tactic of spreading fear in order to get someone elected. Same tactic used in 1984, show a fearful soldier (Japanese, terrorist, doesn't matter; just has to be something foreign) and show yourself as the *only* way to protect yourself against them. In the case of world war 2, donate or join the army, in the case of the election, elect trump. Its a disgusting tactic that people use when they don't have the logic on their side.

But I don't think any liberal is soft on extremism. Basically any human being regardless of political views think that ISIL should be stopped. But liberals aren't using disgusting tactics by using it to their advantage to get elected, or trying to ban every muslim person from entering the country. We are using the same logic as the 40s, spread xenophobia. Just love everyone
Hayd
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8/4/2016 10:59:53 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 4:49:10 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Yes. Otherwise it will continue to be the religion of special needs forever and never evolve. Our tollerance would enable it to continue to be disfunctional and backwards in its thinking.

No one is *tolerating* Islamic extremism, we are constantly fighting them in the Middle East. A liberal president is the one who ordered the assassination of Bin Laden

What liberals are being tolerant of is nonviolent, normal Muslims who make up 98% of all muslims. If anything we need to crack down on Christianity since evangelical extremists are killing more americans than Islam, but then again they aren't xenophobes so we can't push forward that sh!t tactic there