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The Rise of Caesarism

NHN
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8/17/2016 7:09:49 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
An old phenomenon is (re)occurring worldwide. We see it in the charismatic and physically imposing leader. Unity, justice, sacrifice (country first)---these are the slogans common to the resurrected Caesar: Putin in Russia, Le Pen in France, and Trump in the U.S., to name a handful. In each case the political enemy is the cosmopolitan elite, social-democracy/left-liberalism, and corruption, which all emerge as symptoms of societal corrosion.

Moreover, to further distinguish Caesarism from mere despotism, Caesar arrives as a result of a republic in decay. He is summoned due to public disaffection reaching critical mass. What's more, he is not a tyrant. Rather, he arrives to lead the people through hardship and, heeding their call, has the courage to act. And whereas the tyrant is unrelentingly self-serving and maintains the status quo, Caesar guides the people toward a future where the country is revitalized and liberty restored.

It is in this light I consider what may follow from a Trump presidency: a short-lived strongman era followed by a restoration of the Founders' Constitution, i.e., a future restoration of liberty beyond the confines of contemporary democracy.

Now that I have qualified the terminology, would you say that Caesarism is a coherent reply to our current political predicament?
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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8/17/2016 7:17:59 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/17/2016 7:09:49 PM, NHN wrote:
An old phenomenon is (re)occurring worldwide. We see it in the charismatic and physically imposing leader. Unity, justice, sacrifice (country first)---these are the slogans common to the resurrected Caesar: Putin in Russia, Le Pen in France, and Trump in the U.S., to name a handful. In each case the political enemy is the cosmopolitan elite, social-democracy/left-liberalism, and corruption, which all emerge as symptoms of societal corrosion.

Moreover, to further distinguish Caesarism from mere despotism, Caesar arrives as a result of a republic in decay. He is summoned due to public disaffection reaching critical mass. What's more, he is not a tyrant. Rather, he arrives to lead the people through hardship and, heeding their call, has the courage to act. And whereas the tyrant is unrelentingly self-serving and maintains the status quo, Caesar guides the people toward a future where the country is revitalized and liberty restored.

It is in this light I consider what may follow from a Trump presidency: a short-lived strongman era followed by a restoration of the Founders' Constitution, i.e., a future restoration of liberty beyond the confines of contemporary democracy.

Now that I have qualified the terminology, would you say that Caesarism is a coherent reply to our current political predicament?

Then it leads on to Caligula and Nero.
NHN
Posts: 624
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8/17/2016 7:46:14 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/17/2016 7:17:59 PM, desmac wrote:
Then it leads on to Caligula and Nero.
I'm referring to the phenomenon surrounding the rise of Trump, Putin, Le Pen, etc. within their respective national contexts. It is not a question of historical repetition but of ideological identification.

So again,
Would you say that Caesarism is a coherent response to our current (Western) political predicament?
desmac
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8/17/2016 7:51:21 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/17/2016 7:46:14 PM, NHN wrote:
At 8/17/2016 7:17:59 PM, desmac wrote:
Then it leads on to Caligula and Nero.
I'm referring to the phenomenon surrounding the rise of Trump, Putin, Le Pen, etc. within their respective national contexts. It is not a question of historical repetition but of ideological identification.

So again,
Would you say that Caesarism is a coherent response to our current (Western) political predicament?

The title Julius Caesar took was "Dictator in Perpetuity". Personally i am against dictatorship in any form, most especially in perpetuity.
NHN
Posts: 624
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8/17/2016 8:17:34 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/17/2016 7:51:21 PM, desmac wrote:
The title Julius Caesar took was "Dictator in Perpetuity".
I'm not arguing the historical facts regarding the life of Gaius Julius Caesar. Rather, I am applying a well-established term (think Spengler) which distinguishes the Caesarist disposition--the charismatic, populist champion--from the merely tyrannical.

Personally i am against dictatorship in any form, most especially in perpetuity.
Your personal feelings are not at issue here.
The question is whether Caesarism (Trump) presents us with a coherent reply to the difficulties we currently face? If not, how so?
desmac
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8/17/2016 8:25:17 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/17/2016 8:17:34 PM, NHN wrote:
At 8/17/2016 7:51:21 PM, desmac wrote:
The title Julius Caesar took was "Dictator in Perpetuity".
I'm not arguing the historical facts regarding the life of Gaius Julius Caesar. Rather, I am applying a well-established term (think Spengler) which distinguishes the Caesarist disposition--the charismatic, populist champion--from the merely tyrannical.

Personally i am against dictatorship in any form, most especially in perpetuity.
Your personal feelings are not at issue here.
The question is whether Caesarism (Trump) presents us with a coherent reply to the difficulties we currently face? If not, how so?

Dictatorship tends to create more problems than it solves.
No matter how broken democracy appears to be (or is projected to be) it is infinitely preferable to any alternative system
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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8/17/2016 8:26:24 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/17/2016 7:09:49 PM, NHN wrote:
An old phenomenon is (re)occurring worldwide. We see it in the charismatic and physically imposing leader. Unity, justice, sacrifice (country first)---these are the slogans common to the resurrected Caesar: Putin in Russia, Le Pen in France, and Trump in the U.S., to name a handful. In each case the political enemy is the cosmopolitan elite, social-democracy/left-liberalism, and corruption, which all emerge as symptoms of societal corrosion.

Moreover, to further distinguish Caesarism from mere despotism, Caesar arrives as a result of a republic in decay. He is summoned due to public disaffection reaching critical mass. What's more, he is not a tyrant. Rather, he arrives to lead the people through hardship and, heeding their call, has the courage to act. And whereas the tyrant is unrelentingly self-serving and maintains the status quo, Caesar guides the people toward a future where the country is revitalized and liberty restored.

It is in this light I consider what may follow from a Trump presidency: a short-lived strongman era followed by a restoration of the Founders' Constitution, i.e., a future restoration of liberty beyond the confines of contemporary democracy.

Now that I have qualified the terminology, would you say that Caesarism is a coherent reply to our current political predicament?

And then we have Clinton Sharia. If someone opposes you...death without trial.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
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8/17/2016 8:28:51 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/17/2016 7:17:59 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/17/2016 7:09:49 PM, NHN wrote:
An old phenomenon is (re)occurring worldwide. We see it in the charismatic and physically imposing leader. Unity, justice, sacrifice (country first)---these are the slogans common to the resurrected Caesar: Putin in Russia, Le Pen in France, and Trump in the U.S., to name a handful. In each case the political enemy is the cosmopolitan elite, social-democracy/left-liberalism, and corruption, which all emerge as symptoms of societal corrosion.

Moreover, to further distinguish Caesarism from mere despotism, Caesar arrives as a result of a republic in decay. He is summoned due to public disaffection reaching critical mass. What's more, he is not a tyrant. Rather, he arrives to lead the people through hardship and, heeding their call, has the courage to act. And whereas the tyrant is unrelentingly self-serving and maintains the status quo, Caesar guides the people toward a future where the country is revitalized and liberty restored.

It is in this light I consider what may follow from a Trump presidency: a short-lived strongman era followed by a restoration of the Founders' Constitution, i.e., a future restoration of liberty beyond the confines of contemporary democracy.

Now that I have qualified the terminology, would you say that Caesarism is a coherent reply to our current political predicament?

Then it leads on to Caligula and Nero.

Which leads into Hillary and queen of hearts syndrome. Oppose them, you disappear while they wave like the queen of England with a fake smile as they insert themselves as the new God.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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8/17/2016 8:33:24 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/17/2016 8:28:51 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 8/17/2016 7:17:59 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/17/2016 7:09:49 PM, NHN wrote:
An old phenomenon is (re)occurring worldwide. We see it in the charismatic and physically imposing leader. Unity, justice, sacrifice (country first)---these are the slogans common to the resurrected Caesar: Putin in Russia, Le Pen in France, and Trump in the U.S., to name a handful. In each case the political enemy is the cosmopolitan elite, social-democracy/left-liberalism, and corruption, which all emerge as symptoms of societal corrosion.

Moreover, to further distinguish Caesarism from mere despotism, Caesar arrives as a result of a republic in decay. He is summoned due to public disaffection reaching critical mass. What's more, he is not a tyrant. Rather, he arrives to lead the people through hardship and, heeding their call, has the courage to act. And whereas the tyrant is unrelentingly self-serving and maintains the status quo, Caesar guides the people toward a future where the country is revitalized and liberty restored.

It is in this light I consider what may follow from a Trump presidency: a short-lived strongman era followed by a restoration of the Founders' Constitution, i.e., a future restoration of liberty beyond the confines of contemporary democracy.

Now that I have qualified the terminology, would you say that Caesarism is a coherent reply to our current political predicament?

Then it leads on to Caligula and Nero.

Which leads into Hillary and queen of hearts syndrome. Oppose them, you disappear while they wave like the queen of England with a fake smile as they insert themselves as the new God.

If the Senate ever declares Hilary, Dictator in Perpetuity of Rome and the Empire I am sure the opposition will know what to expect.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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8/17/2016 8:50:25 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/17/2016 8:33:24 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/17/2016 8:28:51 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 8/17/2016 7:17:59 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/17/2016 7:09:49 PM, NHN wrote:
An old phenomenon is (re)occurring worldwide. We see it in the charismatic and physically imposing leader. Unity, justice, sacrifice (country first)---these are the slogans common to the resurrected Caesar: Putin in Russia, Le Pen in France, and Trump in the U.S., to name a handful. In each case the political enemy is the cosmopolitan elite, social-democracy/left-liberalism, and corruption, which all emerge as symptoms of societal corrosion.

Moreover, to further distinguish Caesarism from mere despotism, Caesar arrives as a result of a republic in decay. He is summoned due to public disaffection reaching critical mass. What's more, he is not a tyrant. Rather, he arrives to lead the people through hardship and, heeding their call, has the courage to act. And whereas the tyrant is unrelentingly self-serving and maintains the status quo, Caesar guides the people toward a future where the country is revitalized and liberty restored.

It is in this light I consider what may follow from a Trump presidency: a short-lived strongman era followed by a restoration of the Founders' Constitution, i.e., a future restoration of liberty beyond the confines of contemporary democracy.

Now that I have qualified the terminology, would you say that Caesarism is a coherent reply to our current political predicament?

Then it leads on to Caligula and Nero.

Which leads into Hillary and queen of hearts syndrome. Oppose them, you disappear while they wave like the queen of England with a fake smile as they insert themselves as the new God.

If the Senate ever declares Hilary, Dictator in Perpetuity of Rome and the Empire I am sure the opposition will know what to expect.

This administration has already proven the Constitution, due process, and the Congress have no power over the Imperical Leader of the West.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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8/17/2016 8:57:16 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/17/2016 8:50:25 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 8/17/2016 8:33:24 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/17/2016 8:28:51 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 8/17/2016 7:17:59 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/17/2016 7:09:49 PM, NHN wrote:
An old phenomenon is (re)occurring worldwide. We see it in the charismatic and physically imposing leader. Unity, justice, sacrifice (country first)---these are the slogans common to the resurrected Caesar: Putin in Russia, Le Pen in France, and Trump in the U.S., to name a handful. In each case the political enemy is the cosmopolitan elite, social-democracy/left-liberalism, and corruption, which all emerge as symptoms of societal corrosion.

Moreover, to further distinguish Caesarism from mere despotism, Caesar arrives as a result of a republic in decay. He is summoned due to public disaffection reaching critical mass. What's more, he is not a tyrant. Rather, he arrives to lead the people through hardship and, heeding their call, has the courage to act. And whereas the tyrant is unrelentingly self-serving and maintains the status quo, Caesar guides the people toward a future where the country is revitalized and liberty restored.

It is in this light I consider what may follow from a Trump presidency: a short-lived strongman era followed by a restoration of the Founders' Constitution, i.e., a future restoration of liberty beyond the confines of contemporary democracy.

Now that I have qualified the terminology, would you say that Caesarism is a coherent reply to our current political predicament?

Then it leads on to Caligula and Nero.

Which leads into Hillary and queen of hearts syndrome. Oppose them, you disappear while they wave like the queen of England with a fake smile as they insert themselves as the new God.

If the Senate ever declares Hilary, Dictator in Perpetuity of Rome and the Empire I am sure the opposition will know what to expect.

This administration has already proven the Constitution, due process, and the Congress have no power over the Imperical Leader of the West.

The only body empowered to declare a Dictator in Perpetuity is the Senate of the Republic of Rome.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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8/17/2016 9:01:54 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/17/2016 8:57:16 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/17/2016 8:50:25 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 8/17/2016 8:33:24 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/17/2016 8:28:51 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 8/17/2016 7:17:59 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/17/2016 7:09:49 PM, NHN wrote:
An old phenomenon is (re)occurring worldwide. We see it in the charismatic and physically imposing leader. Unity, justice, sacrifice (country first)---these are the slogans common to the resurrected Caesar: Putin in Russia, Le Pen in France, and Trump in the U.S., to name a handful. In each case the political enemy is the cosmopolitan elite, social-democracy/left-liberalism, and corruption, which all emerge as symptoms of societal corrosion.

Moreover, to further distinguish Caesarism from mere despotism, Caesar arrives as a result of a republic in decay. He is summoned due to public disaffection reaching critical mass. What's more, he is not a tyrant. Rather, he arrives to lead the people through hardship and, heeding their call, has the courage to act. And whereas the tyrant is unrelentingly self-serving and maintains the status quo, Caesar guides the people toward a future where the country is revitalized and liberty restored.

It is in this light I consider what may follow from a Trump presidency: a short-lived strongman era followed by a restoration of the Founders' Constitution, i.e., a future restoration of liberty beyond the confines of contemporary democracy.

Now that I have qualified the terminology, would you say that Caesarism is a coherent reply to our current political predicament?

Then it leads on to Caligula and Nero.

Which leads into Hillary and queen of hearts syndrome. Oppose them, you disappear while they wave like the queen of England with a fake smile as they insert themselves as the new God.

If the Senate ever declares Hilary, Dictator in Perpetuity of Rome and the Empire I am sure the opposition will know what to expect.

This administration has already proven the Constitution, due process, and the Congress have no power over the Imperical Leader of the West.


The only body empowered to declare a Dictator in Perpetuity is the Senate of the Republic of Rome.

Too late. The king puppeted a black man for 8 years. Now he'll puppet a woman for 8 more years. It's not an American running this country. It's a brotherhood from foreign lands who now resides in our own lands, the same one liberals left the door open for. Libs get a few things right like lgbt rights, abortion, etc. Then their national defense strategy is a blindfold.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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8/17/2016 9:04:56 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/17/2016 9:01:54 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 8/17/2016 8:57:16 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/17/2016 8:50:25 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 8/17/2016 8:33:24 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/17/2016 8:28:51 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 8/17/2016 7:17:59 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/17/2016 7:09:49 PM, NHN wrote:
An old phenomenon is (re)occurring worldwide. We see it in the charismatic and physically imposing leader. Unity, justice, sacrifice (country first)---these are the slogans common to the resurrected Caesar: Putin in Russia, Le Pen in France, and Trump in the U.S., to name a handful. In each case the political enemy is the cosmopolitan elite, social-democracy/left-liberalism, and corruption, which all emerge as symptoms of societal corrosion.

Moreover, to further distinguish Caesarism from mere despotism, Caesar arrives as a result of a republic in decay. He is summoned due to public disaffection reaching critical mass. What's more, he is not a tyrant. Rather, he arrives to lead the people through hardship and, heeding their call, has the courage to act. And whereas the tyrant is unrelentingly self-serving and maintains the status quo, Caesar guides the people toward a future where the country is revitalized and liberty restored.

It is in this light I consider what may follow from a Trump presidency: a short-lived strongman era followed by a restoration of the Founders' Constitution, i.e., a future restoration of liberty beyond the confines of contemporary democracy.

Now that I have qualified the terminology, would you say that Caesarism is a coherent reply to our current political predicament?

Then it leads on to Caligula and Nero.

Which leads into Hillary and queen of hearts syndrome. Oppose them, you disappear while they wave like the queen of England with a fake smile as they insert themselves as the new God.

If the Senate ever declares Hilary, Dictator in Perpetuity of Rome and the Empire I am sure the opposition will know what to expect.

This administration has already proven the Constitution, due process, and the Congress have no power over the Imperical Leader of the West.


The only body empowered to declare a Dictator in Perpetuity is the Senate of the Republic of Rome.

Too late. The king puppeted a black man for 8 years. Now he'll puppet a woman for 8 more years. It's not an American running this country. It's a brotherhood from foreign lands who now resides in our own lands, the same one liberals left the door open for. Libs get a few things right like lgbt rights, abortion, etc. Then their national defense strategy is a blindfold.

You had better name these mysterious Illuminati, crappo.
NHN
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8/18/2016 7:41:24 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/17/2016 8:25:17 PM, desmac wrote:
Dictatorship tends to create more problems than it solves.
Historically, Caesarism has come in the guise of Franco's Spain (until 1975), Brazil's military dictatorship (until 1985), or Pinochet's Chile (1990) to name a few. In each case the leadership did not envision dictatorship in perpetuity, but a path toward a future society strong enough to fend off communism and similar subversive activity.

Quite frankly, these military dictatorships--vicious affronts to liberty in each and every case--were successful in fighting off the threat of perpetual dictatorship under Soviet rule. Democracy would undoubtedly have weakened these societies in such a fight, as it granted a platform for subversive activities.

No matter how broken democracy appears to be (or is projected to be) it is infinitely preferable to any alternative system
That is not what I am asking, though. The question is:
Has societal and institutional decay reached a point where we are ready to accept the temporary suspension of democracy as a means to reinstall our original liberties in the future?

As you will likely reply "No," I would very much like you to qualify your response (so that this debate/discussion can finally take off).
desmac
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8/18/2016 7:56:23 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/18/2016 7:41:24 AM, NHN wrote:
At 8/17/2016 8:25:17 PM, desmac wrote:
Dictatorship tends to create more problems than it solves.
Historically, Caesarism has come in the guise of Franco's Spain (until 1975), Brazil's military dictatorship (until 1985), or Pinochet's Chile (1990) to name a few. In each case the leadership did not envision dictatorship in perpetuity, but a path toward a future society strong enough to fend off communism and similar subversive activity.

Quite frankly, these military dictatorships--vicious affronts to liberty in each and every case--were successful in fighting off the threat of perpetual dictatorship under Soviet rule. Democracy would undoubtedly have weakened these societies in such a fight, as it granted a platform for subversive activities.

No matter how broken democracy appears to be (or is projected to be) it is infinitely preferable to any alternative system
That is not what I am asking, though. The question is:
Has societal and institutional decay reached a point where we are ready to accept the temporary suspension of democracy as a means to reinstall our original liberties in the future?

As you will likely reply "No," I would very much like you to qualify your response (so that this debate/discussion can finally take off).

The best suspension of democracy was Mussolini's. From a lamp-post.

In reality many of these proto or actual fascists, I notice you (deliberately?)
omit Mussolini, might start out with the idea of a temporary suspension of democracy, but it never tends to end that way. Once you give total power to the guys with the tanks they tend to stay there.
What, regarding current American society, would induce you to "suspend" (rip up) The Constitution, and install Il Duce Trompe as Supreme Leader
NHN
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8/18/2016 8:46:28 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/18/2016 7:56:23 AM, desmac wrote:
In reality many of these proto or actual fascists, I notice you (deliberately?)
omit Mussolini, might start out with the idea of a temporary suspension of democracy, but it never tends to end that way. Once you give total power to the guys with the tanks they tend to stay there.
Yes, I deliberately omit Mussolini from the selection of military dictatorships--in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Turkey--temporarily suspending democracy to fight a communist insurgency.

Mussolini, by contrast, was a socialist who invented a new political ideology, fascism, which was to combine the economics of the liberal left with the social approach of the reactionary right. To him, fascism was the summation of Hegel's Absolute Idealism. Where Mussolini appointed state philosophers to legitimize his absolute authority, Pinochet invited Milton Friedman to introduce free market economics for the sake of modernization. In other words, Pinochet was set on adapting Chile to the West, not finding an absolute ground for his own rule.

The point I am making, for the sake of argument, is whether the United States is closing in on Allende's Chile, or contemporary Greece, which in turn would aggravate a militant reaction and perhaps summon a "Caesar."

What, regarding current American society, would induce you to "suspend" (rip up) The Constitution, and install Il Duce Trompe as Supreme Leader
(Trompe! Nice one.) And suspend is not the same as "rip up." Declaring a state of emergency, as is the case with Hollande's France since November 2015 following the terrorist attacks, does not by any means remove the constitutional framework.

And this is a meta-discussion. I am not here taking sides. Rather, I identify a certain current which is specific to the Trump campaign and its core followers. They perceive an extensive threat to the republic and are ready to take severe measures in order to "turn things round."
Discipulus_Didicit
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8/18/2016 8:59:07 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
I liked the OP right up until they tried to convince us that Caesarism was happening in the modern day.

Wishful thinking with nothing to back it up.
Cobalt - You could be scum too.
Matt - I suppose. But I also might not be.

Kiri - Yeah, I don't know what DD is doing.
Vaarka - He's doin'a thingy do

DD - The best advice most often goes unheeded.
Wise Man - KYS, DD.
DD - Case in point ^
NHN
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8/18/2016 9:54:22 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/18/2016 8:59:07 AM, Discipulus_Didicit wrote:
I liked the OP right up until they tried to convince us that Caesarism was happening in the modern day.

Wishful thinking with nothing to back it up.
I am not trying to convince anyone politically; I am not a Trump supporter.

What is at issue here is that I see parallels between previous Caesarist rulers--Pinochet in Chile, Franco in Spain--with contemporary campaigns, especially Trump in the U.S. and Le Pen in France (which is already in a state of emergency effective as of November 2015).

Trump, the "right-wing Sanders," strikes a cord with a side of the electorate that calls for unity, justice, and sacrifice from a nationalist perspective. America First. Make America Great Again. In the face of social upheaval, anomie, and economic downturn, not to mention the existential threat of global terrorism, the electorate opens up to the idea of a populist strongman.
desmac
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8/18/2016 10:27:14 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/18/2016 8:46:28 AM, NHN wrote:
At 8/18/2016 7:56:23 AM, desmac wrote:
In reality many of these proto or actual fascists, I notice you (deliberately?)
omit Mussolini, might start out with the idea of a temporary suspension of democracy, but it never tends to end that way. Once you give total power to the guys with the tanks they tend to stay there.
Yes, I deliberately omit Mussolini from the selection of military dictatorships--in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Turkey--temporarily suspending democracy to fight a communist insurgency.

Mussolini, by contrast, was a socialist who invented a new political ideology, fascism, which was to combine the economics of the liberal left with the social approach of the reactionary right. To him, fascism was the summation of Hegel's Absolute Idealism. Where Mussolini appointed state philosophers to legitimize his absolute authority, Pinochet invited Milton Friedman to introduce free market economics for the sake of modernization. In other words, Pinochet was set on adapting Chile to the West, not finding an absolute ground for his own rule.

The point I am making, for the sake of argument, is whether the United States is closing in on Allende's Chile, or contemporary Greece, which in turn would aggravate a militant reaction and perhaps summon a "Caesar."

What, regarding current American society, would induce you to "suspend" (rip up) The Constitution, and install Il Duce Trompe as Supreme Leader
(Trompe! Nice one.) And suspend is not the same as "rip up." Declaring a state of emergency, as is the case with Hollande's France since November 2015 following the terrorist attacks, does not by any means remove the constitutional framework.

And this is a meta-discussion. I am not here taking sides. Rather, I identify a certain current which is specific to the Trump campaign and its core followers. They perceive an extensive threat to the republic and are ready to take severe measures in order to "turn things round."

It would appear from the opinion polls that nowhere near enough American voters will give Trump the opportunity to start tampering with the Constitution.
Even should he win the presidency, I cannot foresee the, House and Senate giving the necessary two thirds majority to any such legislation.
NHN
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8/18/2016 10:53:07 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/18/2016 10:27:14 AM, desmac wrote:
It would appear from the opinion polls that nowhere near enough American voters will give Trump the opportunity to start tampering with the Constitution.
He needn't tamper with the Constitution. There are provisions that grant the authority to suspend or abrogate what we would normally designate as basic rights.

Even should he win the presidency, I cannot foresee the, House and Senate giving the necessary two thirds majority to any such legislation.
That wouldn't be necessary. Article II, Section 3 grants the Executive outright authority in the case of a national emergency (as in France). One could also argue that the 14th Amendment grants the Executive the right to issue an order that bypasses the advice and consent rule, as was argued a few years ago when Obama had issues with raising the debt ceiling. Obama could have done the same in the face of the government shutdown, but opted to follow precedent.
Discipulus_Didicit
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8/18/2016 1:33:49 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/18/2016 9:54:22 AM, NHN wrote:
At 8/18/2016 8:59:07 AM, Discipulus_Didicit wrote:
I liked the OP right up until they tried to convince us that Caesarism was happening in the modern day.

Wishful thinking with nothing to back it up.
I am not trying to convince anyone politically; I am not a Trump supporter.

What is at issue here is that I see parallels between previous Caesarist rulers--Pinochet in Chile, Franco in Spain--with contemporary campaigns, especially Trump in the U.S. and Le Pen in France (which is already in a state of emergency effective as of November 2015).

Trump, the "right-wing Sanders," strikes a cord with a side of the electorate that calls for unity, justice, and sacrifice from a nationalist perspective. America First. Make America Great Again. In the face of social upheaval, anomie, and economic downturn, not to mention the existential threat of global terrorism, the electorate opens up to the idea of a populist strongman.

I just said you were trying to convince us that Trump qualifies as being Caesar-like, I never said you were trying to convince us that being Caesar-like was good or bad.
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NHN
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8/18/2016 1:44:25 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/18/2016 1:33:49 PM, Discipulus_Didicit wrote:
I just said you were trying to convince us that Trump qualifies as being Caesar-like, I never said you were trying to convince us that being Caesar-like was good or bad.
Fair enough. And yes, I do identify Trump (as well as Le Pen in France, Kaczynski in Poland, Orban in Hungary, etc.) as Caesarist types: far-right on social issues, leftist-to-pragmatic on fiscal matters. They represent the rule of the charismatic strongman, an iron fist clamping down on corruption and crime. Think de Gaulle, Franco, Putin.

How do you not see the connection?
MakeSensePeopleDont
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8/18/2016 2:36:19 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/17/2016 7:09:49 PM, NHN wrote:
An old phenomenon is (re)occurring worldwide. We see it in the charismatic and physically imposing leader. Unity, justice, sacrifice (country first)---these are the slogans common to the resurrected Caesar: Putin in Russia, Le Pen in France, and Trump in the U.S., to name a handful. In each case the political enemy is the cosmopolitan elite, social-democracy/left-liberalism, and corruption, which all emerge as symptoms of societal corrosion.

Moreover, to further distinguish Caesarism from mere despotism, Caesar arrives as a result of a republic in decay. He is summoned due to public disaffection reaching critical mass. What's more, he is not a tyrant. Rather, he arrives to lead the people through hardship and, heeding their call, has the courage to act. And whereas the tyrant is unrelentingly self-serving and maintains the status quo, Caesar guides the people toward a future where the country is revitalized and liberty restored.

It is in this light I consider what may follow from a Trump presidency: a short-lived strongman era followed by a restoration of the Founders' Constitution, i.e., a future restoration of liberty beyond the confines of contemporary democracy.

Now that I have qualified the terminology, would you say that Caesarism is a coherent reply to our current political predicament?

You forgot to add that Caesarism requires the nation to be run as a dictatorship. So no, it is not a coherent reply to our current political predicament. That is of course unless Trump is elected, abolishes all other levels and branches of government, declares that he will from this day forth be the only and true ruler of the nation, declare he is no longer held within the constraints of any and all laws of the land, decommission The U.S. Constitution and all state level constitutions; and finally, decommission The Bill of Rights.
Capital
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8/18/2016 2:49:41 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/18/2016 2:36:19 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 8/17/2016 7:09:49 PM, NHN wrote:
An old phenomenon is (re)occurring worldwide. We see it in the charismatic and physically imposing leader. Unity, justice, sacrifice (country first)---these are the slogans common to the resurrected Caesar: Putin in Russia, Le Pen in France, and Trump in the U.S., to name a handful. In each case the political enemy is the cosmopolitan elite, social-democracy/left-liberalism, and corruption, which all emerge as symptoms of societal corrosion.

Moreover, to further distinguish Caesarism from mere despotism, Caesar arrives as a result of a republic in decay. He is summoned due to public disaffection reaching critical mass. What's more, he is not a tyrant. Rather, he arrives to lead the people through hardship and, heeding their call, has the courage to act. And whereas the tyrant is unrelentingly self-serving and maintains the status quo, Caesar guides the people toward a future where the country is revitalized and liberty restored.

It is in this light I consider what may follow from a Trump presidency: a short-lived strongman era followed by a restoration of the Founders' Constitution, i.e., a future restoration of liberty beyond the confines of contemporary democracy.

Now that I have qualified the terminology, would you say that Caesarism is a coherent reply to our current political predicament?

You forgot to add that Caesarism requires the nation to be run as a dictatorship. So no, it is not a coherent reply to our current political predicament. That is of course unless Trump is elected, abolishes all other levels and branches of government, declares that he will from this day forth be the only and true ruler of the nation, declare he is no longer held within the constraints of any and all laws of the land, decommission The U.S. Constitution and all state level constitutions; and finally, decommission The Bill of Rights.

Moderate Caesarism can be acheieved under Trump. A strong imperialistic nation can be succesful by turning middle eastern nations into US territories
Im not a Nazi
desmac
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8/18/2016 2:57:41 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/18/2016 2:49:41 PM, Capital wrote:
At 8/18/2016 2:36:19 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 8/17/2016 7:09:49 PM, NHN wrote:
An old phenomenon is (re)occurring worldwide. We see it in the charismatic and physically imposing leader. Unity, justice, sacrifice (country first)---these are the slogans common to the resurrected Caesar: Putin in Russia, Le Pen in France, and Trump in the U.S., to name a handful. In each case the political enemy is the cosmopolitan elite, social-democracy/left-liberalism, and corruption, which all emerge as symptoms of societal corrosion.

Moreover, to further distinguish Caesarism from mere despotism, Caesar arrives as a result of a republic in decay. He is summoned due to public disaffection reaching critical mass. What's more, he is not a tyrant. Rather, he arrives to lead the people through hardship and, heeding their call, has the courage to act. And whereas the tyrant is unrelentingly self-serving and maintains the status quo, Caesar guides the people toward a future where the country is revitalized and liberty restored.

It is in this light I consider what may follow from a Trump presidency: a short-lived strongman era followed by a restoration of the Founders' Constitution, i.e., a future restoration of liberty beyond the confines of contemporary democracy.

Now that I have qualified the terminology, would you say that Caesarism is a coherent reply to our current political predicament?

You forgot to add that Caesarism requires the nation to be run as a dictatorship. So no, it is not a coherent reply to our current political predicament. That is of course unless Trump is elected, abolishes all other levels and branches of government, declares that he will from this day forth be the only and true ruler of the nation, declare he is no longer held within the constraints of any and all laws of the land, decommission The U.S. Constitution and all state level constitutions; and finally, decommission The Bill of Rights.

Moderate Caesarism can be acheieved under Trump. A strong imperialistic nation can be succesful by turning middle eastern nations into US territories

Russia, China and Islam are going to go for that.
Discipulus_Didicit
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8/18/2016 3:37:10 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/18/2016 1:44:25 PM, NHN wrote:
At 8/18/2016 1:33:49 PM, Discipulus_Didicit wrote:
I just said you were trying to convince us that Trump qualifies as being Caesar-like, I never said you were trying to convince us that being Caesar-like was good or bad.
Fair enough. And yes, I do identify Trump (as well as Le Pen in France, Kaczynski in Poland, Orban in Hungary, etc.) as Caesarist types: far-right on social issues, leftist-to-pragmatic on fiscal matters. They represent the rule of the charismatic strongman, an iron fist clamping down on corruption and crime. Think de Gaulle, Franco, Putin.

How do you not see the connection?

You are right about him being a very charismatic personality, and he has used this charisma to convince everyone he's going to make major changes like the ones you speak of. His enemies and friends alike have have fallen for it pretty thoroughly when in truth he's just like any other politician - he'll promise whatever he thinks he needs to promise to get your vote.

Politician makes promises ---> Gets into office ---> 'Forgets' promises

Politician makes promises ---> Gets into office ---> 'Forgets' promises

Politician makes promises ---> Gets into office ---> 'Forgets' promises

Trump makes promises ---> ???

That's the connection I see.
Cobalt - You could be scum too.
Matt - I suppose. But I also might not be.

Kiri - Yeah, I don't know what DD is doing.
Vaarka - He's doin'a thingy do

DD - The best advice most often goes unheeded.
Wise Man - KYS, DD.
DD - Case in point ^
MakeSensePeopleDont
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8/18/2016 3:43:01 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/18/2016 2:49:41 PM, Capital wrote:
At 8/18/2016 2:36:19 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 8/17/2016 7:09:49 PM, NHN wrote:
An old phenomenon is (re)occurring worldwide. We see it in the charismatic and physically imposing leader. Unity, justice, sacrifice (country first)---these are the slogans common to the resurrected Caesar: Putin in Russia, Le Pen in France, and Trump in the U.S., to name a handful. In each case the political enemy is the cosmopolitan elite, social-democracy/left-liberalism, and corruption, which all emerge as symptoms of societal corrosion.

Moreover, to further distinguish Caesarism from mere despotism, Caesar arrives as a result of a republic in decay. He is summoned due to public disaffection reaching critical mass. What's more, he is not a tyrant. Rather, he arrives to lead the people through hardship and, heeding their call, has the courage to act. And whereas the tyrant is unrelentingly self-serving and maintains the status quo, Caesar guides the people toward a future where the country is revitalized and liberty restored.

It is in this light I consider what may follow from a Trump presidency: a short-lived strongman era followed by a restoration of the Founders' Constitution, i.e., a future restoration of liberty beyond the confines of contemporary democracy.

Now that I have qualified the terminology, would you say that Caesarism is a coherent reply to our current political predicament?

You forgot to add that Caesarism requires the nation to be run as a dictatorship. So no, it is not a coherent reply to our current political predicament. That is of course unless Trump is elected, abolishes all other levels and branches of government, declares that he will from this day forth be the only and true ruler of the nation, declare he is no longer held within the constraints of any and all laws of the land, decommission The U.S. Constitution and all state level constitutions; and finally, decommission The Bill of Rights.

Moderate Caesarism can be acheieved under Trump. A strong imperialistic nation can be succesful by turning middle eastern nations into US territories

LOL, you can't just casually toss the word "moderate" on the front of any political ideology you want, and *POOF* all the bad parts of the ideology that don't fit with your desired goal are gone. This is especially true when talking in terms of the major factor in the ideology like dictatorship style rule within Caeserism.
Capital
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8/18/2016 4:39:13 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/18/2016 2:57:41 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/18/2016 2:49:41 PM, Capital wrote:
At 8/18/2016 2:36:19 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 8/17/2016 7:09:49 PM, NHN wrote:
An old phenomenon is (re)occurring worldwide. We see it in the charismatic and physically imposing leader. Unity, justice, sacrifice (country first)---these are the slogans common to the resurrected Caesar: Putin in Russia, Le Pen in France, and Trump in the U.S., to name a handful. In each case the political enemy is the cosmopolitan elite, social-democracy/left-liberalism, and corruption, which all emerge as symptoms of societal corrosion.

Moreover, to further distinguish Caesarism from mere despotism, Caesar arrives as a result of a republic in decay. He is summoned due to public disaffection reaching critical mass. What's more, he is not a tyrant. Rather, he arrives to lead the people through hardship and, heeding their call, has the courage to act. And whereas the tyrant is unrelentingly self-serving and maintains the status quo, Caesar guides the people toward a future where the country is revitalized and liberty restored.

It is in this light I consider what may follow from a Trump presidency: a short-lived strongman era followed by a restoration of the Founders' Constitution, i.e., a future restoration of liberty beyond the confines of contemporary democracy.

Now that I have qualified the terminology, would you say that Caesarism is a coherent reply to our current political predicament?

You forgot to add that Caesarism requires the nation to be run as a dictatorship. So no, it is not a coherent reply to our current political predicament. That is of course unless Trump is elected, abolishes all other levels and branches of government, declares that he will from this day forth be the only and true ruler of the nation, declare he is no longer held within the constraints of any and all laws of the land, decommission The U.S. Constitution and all state level constitutions; and finally, decommission The Bill of Rights.

Moderate Caesarism can be acheieved under Trump. A strong imperialistic nation can be succesful by turning middle eastern nations into US territories

Russia, China and Islam are going to go for that.

I support more Russian or Chinese involvement in the middle east rather than religions
Im not a Nazi
NHN
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8/18/2016 10:16:01 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/18/2016 2:36:19 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
You forgot to add that Caesarism requires the nation to be run as a dictatorship. So no, it is not a coherent reply to our current political predicament.
You have that backwards. Caesarism explicitly implies the step from republic to autocracy.

To further qualify the term, I'll use one of the most influential political philosopher of the Cold War era, Leo Strauss. Echoing his student Eric Voegelin, Strauss underscored that Caesar is "the avenger of the misdeeds of a corrupt people." Caesarism happens to a degraded society, that is to say, a society that thrives on its own degradation. Furthermore, Caesar, according to Strauss and Voegelin, represents the just alternative to unjust tyranny as well as to the degradation that is the status quo.

That is of course unless Trump is elected, abolishes all other levels and branches of government, declares that he will from this day forth be the only and true ruler of the nation, declare he is no longer held within the constraints of any and all laws of the land, decommission The U.S. Constitution and all state level constitutions; and finally, decommission The Bill of Rights.
Nothing of the sort is needed. Caesar may simply declare a national state of emergency in accordance with Article II, Section 3. Some even argue that the 14th Amdt. grants the Executive the right to impose legislation under similar conditions, as previously argued by liberals (for Obama to raise the debt ceiling or prevent a government shutdown).
MakeSensePeopleDont
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8/19/2016 12:35:14 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/18/2016 10:16:01 PM, NHN wrote:
At 8/18/2016 2:36:19 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
You forgot to add that Caesarism requires the nation to be run as a dictatorship. So no, it is not a coherent reply to our current political predicament.
You have that backwards. Caesarism explicitly implies the step from republic to autocracy.

To further qualify the term, I'll use one of the most influential political philosopher of the Cold War era, Leo Strauss. Echoing his student Eric Voegelin, Strauss underscored that Caesar is "the avenger of the misdeeds of a corrupt people." Caesarism happens to a degraded society, that is to say, a society that thrives on its own degradation. Furthermore, Caesar, according to Strauss and Voegelin, represents the just alternative to unjust tyranny as well as to the degradation that is the status quo.


Definition of Caesarism

Caesarism -- imperial authority or system : political absolutism : dictatorship

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

The reason this ideology is named after Julius Caesar:

The Roman Republic or Rome governed by a Republic system was created and run around the central group of government called the Senate. The Senate would pretty much run everything within Rome. The Senate would elect 2 Consuls which were the highest of leaders, like the U.S. president but two at one time; two were kept in power for opposing views and veto ability against each other. We are only speaking of the time of Consuls here because the times of kings, emperors, etc. are not of consequence here.

Consuls had final say on everything; however, Consuls and the Senate worked together in order to make the best decisions for Rome. This generally works out well; but from time to time, Consuls would get out of control; however the Senate was able elect new Consuls every few years, so there was a fail safe in place.

Caesar on the other hand, was granted the title of "Dictator for Life" in 44 B.C.; the first time this title was used in Rome. This meant that he was not a Consul so there was no requirement of 2 leaders. He was the highest of elected leaders which meant that he had final say on everything. Problem is, Caesar began giving the double birds to the Senate and all other groups with voices of influence in Roman government. Caesar made all decisions and slowly moved all areas of Roman power and control into complete and total control of himself; dismantling many high-society groups along the way.

However, as dictator for life, he was never able to be removed from office or replaced. All fail-safes were gone as well at this point, everyone had to simply sit back, kick up their feet, and wait for the gods to end his life

Upon his death, members of the Senate finally began talking about him and all the horrible things he did. Members of the Senate were actually worried that Caesar was planning on not just making the Senate completely worthless in Roman government as he did, but that he was extremely close to completely abolishing the Senate; Senate being the last safety net remaining before transfer to royal rule. If the Senate was wiped out, you better hope the Roman military could have stopped Caesar.

Nothing of the sort is needed. Caesar may simply declare a national state of emergency in accordance with Article II, Section 3. Some even argue that the 14th Amdt. grants the Executive the right to impose legislation under similar conditions, as previously argued by liberals (for Obama to raise the debt ceiling or prevent a government shutdown).

Declaring a state of emergency is completely different from ordering congressional houses back to session for emergency votes

Article 2 Section 3 Clause 3 is what your are referring to. However, just as the democrats found out a few years ago, this is illegal to use outside of the most extreme cases. For example: if congress was out of session for 7 weeks as it is about to be now, and Russia attempted a military invasion of the U.S., the president may call the two houses, or either one, into emergency session. When this happens, any elected officials or appointed sit-ins that can make to the House and Senate through the emergency, will hold role call, and then vote on necessary actions. Here, it would be granting the president the temporary authorization to go to war until regular session may resume. In these cases, if only 5 elected officials are there to vote, 5 people will determine the result. Once the emergency session has completed, the president may, if needed due to house or senate leader MIA, announce congressional emergency session as closed and all present may disperse.

Nothing to due with what you are talking about.

The 14th Amendment does what?

The 14th Amendment has 5 Sections:

1) Regarding Citizenship
2) Number of government reps allowed per state
3) if at some point in time you were a terrorist or went against the U.S., you are not able to run for office.
4) Debt payment
5) Congress can enforce the above by proper legislation.

No, Obama could not and did not use section 5 above along with executive orders to raise the debt ceiling and change immigration laws. It would have been illegal and a violation of the constitution.