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Czech Republic and Hungary call for EU Army

bsh1
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8/26/2016 8:13:00 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
http://www.bbc.com...

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PetersSmith
Posts: 5,843
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8/26/2016 8:35:56 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/26/2016 8:13:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
http://www.bbc.com...

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People should remember what happened last time Germany assembled an army.
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bsh1
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8/27/2016 1:22:18 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/26/2016 8:30:10 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
That'd be terrifying.

Why?
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UtherPenguin
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8/27/2016 12:15:17 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/27/2016 1:22:18 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/26/2016 8:30:10 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
That'd be terrifying.

Why?

Even the UN doesn't have a joint army. Creating a unified army from the militaries of an entire continent is essentially entrusting with massive military power on par with NATO.
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lannan13
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8/27/2016 1:05:13 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/26/2016 8:13:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
http://www.bbc.com...

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I really don't think that would be cohessive. I'm quite sure the French troops wouldn't like taking orders from the Irish and so forth. Things might eventually smooth out, but the Nationalist tendencies would prevail causing the nations to be way too stubborn to actually go forth with this.
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Skepsikyma
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8/27/2016 1:10:48 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/26/2016 8:13:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
http://www.bbc.com...

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Terrible idea. Unified armies like that always have terrible outcomes, because divorcing a military from a sense of nationality basically puts way too much power in the hands of generals. Look at the Marian Reforms or the Delian League for examples.

I also love how all of the people who have said that this would be coming for a while, were called 'crazy conspiracy theorists' and scoffed at for years. Fvcking morons.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
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NHN
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8/27/2016 1:19:02 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/26/2016 8:13:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
http://www.bbc.com...
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This isn't as ostentatious as it may seem. The Visegrad Group -- consisting of Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, and Hungary (V4) -- has been making plans to bolster defense and security since 1999 (http://www.visegradgroup.eu...).

And as Poland now takes a new approach to the EU, with the ruling party proposing a confederation of nation-states (https://euobserver.com...), the V4 simultaneously puts national defense front and center of its policy.

And the main reason toward creating a joint military force is, of course, a move to counter a revanchist and unpredictable Russia. To this end, NATO is entirely insufficient (http://www.zeit.de...).

In short, V4 members Czechia and Hungary are stressing the need to bolster defense and security concerns that can't be handled within the framework of EU or NATO.
Skepsikyma
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8/27/2016 1:36:07 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/27/2016 1:19:02 PM, NHN wrote:
At 8/26/2016 8:13:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
http://www.bbc.com...
Thoughts? Comments? Reactions?
And the main reason toward creating a joint military force is, of course, a move to counter a revanchist and unpredictable Russia. To this end, NATO is entirely insufficient (http://www.zeit.de...).

Russia isn't revanchist or unpredictable. They literally said that they found the 2008 Bucharest bid to include Ukraine and Georgia in NATO to be unacceptable, and that they wouldn't stand for it. It would have been geopolitical suicide for them to let Ukraine drift any further into the West's sphere of influence.

That whole debacle was 100% predictable, and the blame for it falls on the late Bush administration for setting up the stage for it, and the early Obama administration for failing to correct what errors had already been made.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
NHN
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8/27/2016 1:52:46 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/27/2016 1:36:07 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 8/27/2016 1:19:02 PM, NHN wrote:
At 8/26/2016 8:13:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
http://www.bbc.com...
Thoughts? Comments? Reactions?
And the main reason toward creating a joint military force is, of course, a move to counter a revanchist and unpredictable Russia. To this end, NATO is entirely insufficient (http://www.zeit.de...).
Russia isn't revanchist or unpredictable.
Whoa. Take a deep breath. You've been drinking the Kool-Aid for too long, parroting the alt-right-Dugin-RT-Pravda commentariat.

The point with the V4, and extensively the Intermarium nations, is to maintain a set of free and democratic republics that will keep Russia at bay. This means offshore balancing for the U.S., which has been the foreign policy objective of the world's leading sea power's since Mackinder wrote Democratic Ideals and Reality (1919).
Skepsikyma
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8/27/2016 3:51:12 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/27/2016 1:52:46 PM, NHN wrote:
At 8/27/2016 1:36:07 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 8/27/2016 1:19:02 PM, NHN wrote:
At 8/26/2016 8:13:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
http://www.bbc.com...
Thoughts? Comments? Reactions?
And the main reason toward creating a joint military force is, of course, a move to counter a revanchisut and unpredictable Russia. To this end, NATO is entirely insufficient (http://www.zeit.debate...).
Russia isn't revanchist or unpredictable.
Whoa. Take a deep breath. You've been drinking the Kool-Aid for too long, parroting the alt-right-Dugin-RT-Pravda commentariat.

Lol, you are aware that assuming things about people tends to result in self-embarrassment, right?

The point with the V4, and extensively the Intermarium nations, is to maintain a set of free and democratic republics that will keep Russia at bay.

And we have no support for the idea that Russia will be striking westward. Their vital statistics are weak, their domestic political situation is tenuous, and their economic model is supremely vulnerable to economic warfare in light of their failure to transition from an extraction model. Furthermore, as soon as gas prices go back up they will be embroiled in central Asian geopolitical conflicts with China. Why would they expand westward ll, damaging the consumption markets for their own exports in Europe, when they are dealing with Chinese economic expansion into their sphere of influence?

This means offshore balancing for the U.S., which has been the foreign policy objective of the world's leading sea power's since Mackinder wrote Democratic Ideals and Reality (1919).

What on earth makes you think that pursuing an ossified foreign policy despite changing conditions on the ground is a good thing? Russia is a very different beast from the USSR. China is our primary geopolitical threat; Hillary's pivot to Asia was one of the few things that she got right.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
NHN
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8/27/2016 4:02:41 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/27/2016 3:51:12 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Lol, you are aware that assuming things about people tends to result in self-embarrassment, right?
I haven't seen you step away from embracing the alt-right and its "genuine revolutionary nodes" as you stated here (http://www.debate.org...).

What on earth makes you think that pursuing an ossified foreign policy despite changing conditions on the ground is a good thing? [...]
Sigh. Check the dictionary before spiraling off into oblivion. Offshore balancing means that you let others do the balancing for you. In this case, the V4 are pulling the weight to check Russia. Offshore balancing was how Great Britain was able to check continental powers for centuries.

Geopolitics 101.
Skepsikyma
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8/27/2016 4:34:36 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/27/2016 4:02:41 PM, NHN wrote:
At 8/27/2016 3:51:12 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Lol, you are aware that assuming things about people tends to result in self-embarrassment, right?
I haven't seen you step away from embracing the alt-right and its "genuine revolutionary nodes" as you stated here (http://www.debate.org...).

I hardly 'embrace' the alt right; I find it interesting and see some potential within it.

What on earth makes you think that pursuing an ossified foreign policy despite changing conditions on the ground is a good thing? [...]
Sigh. Check the dictionary before spiraling off into oblivion. Offshore balancing means that you let others do the balancing for you. In this case, the V4 are pulling the weight to check Russia. Offshore balancing was how Great Britain was able to check continental powers for centuries.

Geopolitics 101.

So you start by stating that Russia is revanchist and unpredictable. I make several arguments showing why that isn't the case. I stick to original contention, and ignore a little aside about offshore balancing, because it's assumed that we're within that framework if we're talking about eastern Europe and Russia. You then jump to the supremely charitable assumption that I don't know what it is, and fail to address any of my points.

Inspiring...
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
NHN
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8/27/2016 4:52:45 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/27/2016 4:34:36 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I hardly 'embrace' the alt right; I find it interesting and see some potential within it.
Same diff. Finding something interesting or inspiring is in the same ballpark.

And again, what would be the "genuine revolutionary nodes" of this neo-reactionary zeitgeist? Start a thread in Society, Politics, Philosophy (whatever fits your schema). Don't be a chicken.

So you start by stating that Russia is revanchist and unpredictable.
Absolutely. Revanchist from the French revanchisme -- the move to reclaim territorial losses (Crimea, Eastern Ukraine), Putin's Novorossiya doctrine.

Coeval with its revanchist policies, Russia is indeed unpredictable. Here's a take from European CFR (http://www.ecfr.eu...) -- you know, issues that people in the foreign policy establishment discuss. Consensus and whatnot.

And offshore balancing, the means by which to engage Russia through proxies, is precisely the way a sea power conducts itself against a land power.
Skepsikyma
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8/28/2016 5:33:23 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/27/2016 4:52:45 PM, NHN wrote:
At 8/27/2016 4:34:36 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I hardly 'embrace' the alt right; I find it interesting and see some potential within it.
Same diff. Finding something interesting or inspiring is in the same ballpark.

No it isn't, that's why we have two different words with different definitions.

And again, what would be the "genuine revolutionary nodes" of this neo-reactionary zeitgeist? Start a thread in Society, Politics, Philosophy (whatever fits your schema). Don't be a chicken.

They're intensely antagonistic to the ruling class and don't buy into free market absolutism. It's really that simple.

So you start by stating that Russia is revanchist and unpredictable.
Absolutely. Revanchist from the French revanchisme -- the move to reclaim territorial losses (Crimea, Eastern Ukraine), Putin's Novorossiya doctrine.

Coeval with its revanchist policies, Russia is indeed unpredictable. Here's a take from European CFR (http://www.ecfr.eu...) -- you know, issues that people in the foreign policy establishment discuss. Consensus and whatnot.

There's nowhere near a consensus on this issue; there's a huge rift between the realists and liberals, and every large-scale criticism that I've seen of the pragmatists has been full of disingenuous mischaracterizations (one so-called rebuttal claims that Mearsheimer doesn't recognize the fact that leader's lie, when he literally wrote a book on leaders lying).

And you've still failed to address any of my points as to why an occupation of Eastern Europe would be completely untenable for Russia, making it absurd to balance against that potential to the point of forming an EU army.

And offshore balancing, the means by which to engage Russia through proxies, is precisely the way a sea power conducts itself against a land power.

But the question is to what degree they need to be balanced, not whether to do it by proxy.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
NHN
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8/28/2016 8:07:28 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 5:33:23 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
No it isn't, that's why we have two different words with different definitions.
I take it you've never come across a thesaurus.

And again, what would be the "genuine revolutionary nodes" of this neo-reactionary zeitgeist? Start a thread in Society, Politics, Philosophy (whatever fits your schema). Don't be a chicken.
They're intensely antagonistic to the ruling class and don't buy into free market absolutism. It's really that simple.
But unless you can point to an actual article, essay, book -- even mentioning a "writer" would suffice -- then this comes off as yet another evasion.

There's nowhere near a consensus on this issue; there's a huge rift between the realists and liberals [...]
The supposed difference between "realists" and "liberals" is entirely fabricated; it doesn't exist outside college classrooms and newspaper editorials and op-eds. In the real world of policy, everyone's a realist and idealist to a varying degree; in the U.S., liberalism just happens to be the idealist mode. What matters is your geopolitical outlook, the vantage point from which foreign policy is conducted.

I strongly recommend John Mearsheimer's The Tragedy of Great Power Politics and Robert Kaplan's The Revenge of Geography as insightful first steps into the history of power politics.

And you've still failed to address any of my points as to why an occupation of Eastern Europe would be completely untenable for Russia, making it absurd to balance against that potential to the point of forming an EU army.
This is the situation at hand: the Russian troop buildup outside Poland and the revanchist practices in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine aggravate the balance of power. One way to counter this is to have Poland, Romania, Hungary build up forces in the short run. In the long run, our goal should be to make sure that the Intermarium republics remain free and democratic.

And offshore balancing, the means by which to engage Russia through proxies, is precisely the way a sea power conducts itself against a land power.
But the question is to what degree they need to be balanced, not whether to do it by proxy.
Offshore balancing (re: Mearsheimer) is the policy of a status quo power. It is enacted to sustain an equilibrium, not aggravate it.
1harderthanyouthink
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8/29/2016 12:20:19 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
What Skep said.
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And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/2/2016 9:38:43 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/27/2016 1:36:07 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 8/27/2016 1:19:02 PM, NHN wrote:
At 8/26/2016 8:13:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
http://www.bbc.com...
Thoughts? Comments? Reactions?
And the main reason toward creating a joint military force is, of course, a move to counter a revanchist and unpredictable Russia. To this end, NATO is entirely insufficient (http://www.zeit.de...).

Russia isn't revanchist or unpredictable. They literally said that they found the 2008 Bucharest bid to include Ukraine and Georgia in NATO to be unacceptable, and that they wouldn't stand for it. It would have been geopolitical suicide for them to let Ukraine drift any further into the West's sphere of influence.

That whole debacle was 100% predictable, and the blame for it falls on the late Bush administration for setting up the stage for it, and the early Obama administration for failing to correct what errors had already been made.

Wtf... You mean as we stood idly by and did nothing when both were invaded? Wow

And good for Europe. We should withdraw from NATO and let them handle their own business. The us and Russia with posture a little, nothing more