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The Burqini and the CIS

FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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9/2/2016 11:37:09 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
Okay, so we have the burqini thing as an expression of "Free speech" through religion, in this instance, Islam.

No problem.

On the flip side, in France, "Islam" has been the motivating factor for 3 major massacres in the past few years. Very large body count.

Is that reason to consider Islam threatening?

Obviously, not all muslims, etc, but, lets go to a separate but similar tangent.

A lot of people want the battle flag of the CIS taken down from places (private or not) due to the idea that people consider the confederate flag inherently racist, the thoughts or motives of the flag owner not withstanding, much in the same way that the French are adopting attitudes about Islam.

Is there an appropriate correlation to consider a possible double standard, for those whom say the burqini is okay, but the Confederate flag is not?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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9/2/2016 3:51:21 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
It depends on the exact argument that the person is proposing. If they use 'it's freedom of expression, so there' kind of arguments, then I agree - it is certainly hypocritical for these liberals to support the confederate flag. However, many arguments are much more nuanced than that. I don't support a ban on the burkini because I don't think it is sufficiently annoying to justify banning, has caused unnecessary backslash (which only worsens tensions), and is clearly a case of misplaced priorities - the focus should be on reforming immigration policy and actually assimilating the Muslims that have arrived in France, and banning burkinis isn't exactly conducive to that.
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brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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9/2/2016 4:04:05 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/2/2016 11:37:09 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
Okay, so we have the burqini thing as an expression of "Free speech" through religion, in this instance, Islam.

No problem.

On the flip side, in France, "Islam" has been the motivating factor for 3 major massacres in the past few years. Very large body count.

Is that reason to consider Islam threatening?

Obviously, not all muslims, etc, but, lets go to a separate but similar tangent.

A lot of people want the battle flag of the CIS taken down from places (private or not) due to the idea that people consider the confederate flag inherently racist, the thoughts or motives of the flag owner not withstanding, much in the same way that the French are adopting attitudes about Islam.

Is there an appropriate correlation to consider a possible double standard, for those whom say the burqini is okay, but the Confederate flag is not?

To liberals it is only racist, intollerant, or threatening if it is white.
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Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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9/2/2016 4:47:34 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/2/2016 11:37:09 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
Okay, so we have the burqini thing as an expression of "Free speech" through religion, in this instance, Islam.

No problem.

On the flip side, in France, "Islam" has been the motivating factor for 3 major massacres in the past few years. Very large body count.

Is that reason to consider Islam threatening?

Obviously, not all muslims, etc, but, lets go to a separate but similar tangent.

A lot of people want the battle flag of the CIS taken down from places (private or not) due to the idea that people consider the confederate flag inherently racist, the thoughts or motives of the flag owner not withstanding, much in the same way that the French are adopting attitudes about Islam.

Is there an appropriate correlation to consider a possible double standard, for those whom say the burqini is okay, but the Confederate flag is not?

My understanding of the Confederate flag issue was that they didn't want it flying over government buildings. While there may be public backlash against individuals who use it, I'm unaware of any movement to ban private citizens from displaying it.

The burkini issue is a government ban on expression. Even beyond that, it just doesn't make any sense. The original intent of the ban is fight this particular oppression of women as Islam restricts what they are allowed to wear. I don't see how you can honestly fight restrictive clothing rules for women by making a rule that restricts what clothing they can wear.

Personally, I like the practical effects of banning anything based on religion that is oppressive, and I don't know why you'd stop at Islam. But on principle the violation of individual rights is not okay.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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9/2/2016 6:41:24 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/2/2016 4:47:34 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 9/2/2016 11:37:09 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
Okay, so we have the burqini thing as an expression of "Free speech" through religion, in this instance, Islam.

No problem.

On the flip side, in France, "Islam" has been the motivating factor for 3 major massacres in the past few years. Very large body count.

Is that reason to consider Islam threatening?

Obviously, not all muslims, etc, but, lets go to a separate but similar tangent.

A lot of people want the battle flag of the CIS taken down from places (private or not) due to the idea that people consider the confederate flag inherently racist, the thoughts or motives of the flag owner not withstanding, much in the same way that the French are adopting attitudes about Islam.

Is there an appropriate correlation to consider a possible double standard, for those whom say the burqini is okay, but the Confederate flag is not?

My understanding of the Confederate flag issue was that they didn't want it flying over government buildings. While there may be public backlash against individuals who use it, I'm unaware of any movement to ban private citizens from displaying it.

There is no government movement to do so, however the same reason it was removed from public state flags are the same motives to prevent private citizens from flying it, though in the US, the movements wanting to curtail such a display knows it runs smack into a "freedom of speech" issue, though some efforts to call the CIS's banner 'hate speech', and not protected, have been made.


The burkini issue is a government ban on expression. Even beyond that, it just doesn't make any sense. The original intent of the ban is fight this particular oppression of women as Islam restricts what they are allowed to wear. I don't see how you can honestly fight restrictive clothing rules for women by making a rule that restricts what clothing they can wear.

Personally, I like the practical effects of banning anything based on religion that is oppressive, and I don't know why you'd stop at Islam. But on principle the violation of individual rights is not okay.

Okay, so would it be okay for France's government to ban burqas, in general, for their various officers, much in the same way the US government halted the practice of having the 'rebel' flag emblemized on some state flags?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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9/2/2016 6:52:29 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/2/2016 6:41:24 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 9/2/2016 4:47:34 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 9/2/2016 11:37:09 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
Okay, so we have the burqini thing as an expression of "Free speech" through religion, in this instance, Islam.

No problem.

On the flip side, in France, "Islam" has been the motivating factor for 3 major massacres in the past few years. Very large body count.

Is that reason to consider Islam threatening?

Obviously, not all muslims, etc, but, lets go to a separate but similar tangent.

A lot of people want the battle flag of the CIS taken down from places (private or not) due to the idea that people consider the confederate flag inherently racist, the thoughts or motives of the flag owner not withstanding, much in the same way that the French are adopting attitudes about Islam.

Is there an appropriate correlation to consider a possible double standard, for those whom say the burqini is okay, but the Confederate flag is not?

My understanding of the Confederate flag issue was that they didn't want it flying over government buildings. While there may be public backlash against individuals who use it, I'm unaware of any movement to ban private citizens from displaying it.

There is no government movement to do so, however the same reason it was removed from public state flags are the same motives to prevent private citizens from flying it, though in the US, the movements wanting to curtail such a display knows it runs smack into a "freedom of speech" issue, though some efforts to call the CIS's banner 'hate speech', and not protected, have been made.

Yeah, I agree with your original point in that case: anyone trying to use the government to stop the CIS banner from being displayed by private citizens is definitely a hypocrite if they want to protect the burqini.

The burkini issue is a government ban on expression. Even beyond that, it just doesn't make any sense. The original intent of the ban is fight this particular oppression of women as Islam restricts what they are allowed to wear. I don't see how you can honestly fight restrictive clothing rules for women by making a rule that restricts what clothing they can wear.

Personally, I like the practical effects of banning anything based on religion that is oppressive, and I don't know why you'd stop at Islam. But on principle the violation of individual rights is not okay.

Okay, so would it be okay for France's government to ban burqas, in general, for their various officers, much in the same way the US government halted the practice of having the 'rebel' flag emblemized on some state flags?

It depends on why they say they're doing it. France banned the face veil, for instance, but it's because they have banned all full-face coverings in public in general as a matter of safety. They could probably use the same rationale to ban the burqa in government with a similar law that doesn't specifically target Islamic dress. If they say they want to ban the burqa in government specifically because it's oppressive, I think that opens up bans on other oppressive religious regalia in government. I know nothing about French law, so maybe they already do that.