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Why we don't mock the dead

Skepsikyma
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9/7/2016 3:58:53 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
Well, Phyllis Schlafly is dead. Cue the exuberant grave-dancing.

This happens pretty often, because a lot of people don't understand the roots of the custom. So I'm going attempt to explain why it is frowned upon to speak ill of the recently deceased, or to outright celebrate death.

Picture an execution. If the entire mood is somber, than all is well. It means that the person being killed deserves it; that no elation can be found in the death because a tragedy has made the execution necessary. If the crowd is angry, there is likely something wrong with the execution. It is either being driven by emotion, with no impartial justice, or the execution itself is perceived as unjust. But probably the worst scenario is a crowd which is elated; this elicits, in most people, a sense of primal revulsion. It reveals that there is something profoundly wrong with the crowd.

So, what is wrong? It's tied into basic human nature, best explained by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn:

"If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

During the life of any heart this line keeps changing place; sometimes it is squeezed one way by exuberant evil and sometimes it shifts to allow enough space for good to flourish. One and the same human being is, at various ages, under various circumstances, a totally different human being. At times he is close to being a devil, at times to sainthood. But his name doesn't change, and to that name we ascribe the whole lot, good and evil.

Socrates taught us: 'Know thyself.'

Confronted by the pit into which we are about to toss those who have done us harm, we halt, stricken dumb: it is after all only because of the way things worked out that they were the executioners and we weren't.

From good to evil is one quaver, says the proverb.
And correspondingly, from evil to good."

What's wrong with elation over death is the mass distortion at play: the idea that the executed is 'all bad', and the sense, felt by the people howling in joy, that they are 'all good'. It's a sense of hubris, of 'casting out' of their own evil onto a target. This sort of behavior is predictable, though still troubling, at an execution, because the person who is being killed has often been deemed by the overwhelming majority of a man's fellows as irredeemable. The moral condemnation has all the weight of society behind it. When it is directed at a normal citizen who dies of normal causes, though, it is beyond the pale. For example, Miss Schlafly. I didn't like the woman very much, but I also didn't know her very well. I'm sure her children loved her. I'm sure she brought value to those around her. I'm sure she made people smile, and I'm sure that she will be remembered fondly by many. However, she also undoubtedly hurt people and made them angry. Just as I have. Just as everybody has. We're all mixed bags, and judgements of our character are largely experiential. The traditional response to death (withholding criticism, sympathizing with loved ones, and remaining somber) lets us see things as they are, promotes introspection, and leads to a wider understanding not just of the deceased but of the larger community. It cultivates a sense of humility.

To celebrate the death means to cement in one's mind a stark line between you, the dead, and their loved ones. To celebrate their death, they must be 'bad'. Therefore, to mourn their death, others around them must be 'bad'. Clearly, that makes the people celebrating 'good'. The traditional stance draws that line between good and evil within the human heart and leads to deeper understanding. The celebration of death leads on to inevitably draw the line between people, to separate others into 'good' and 'bad' camps, and to ultimately loose sight of human nature and our shared struggles in favor of blind ideological tribalism. It obscures from those afflicted with it both their perceived foe's virtues, and their perceived ally's faults, and can only lead to more of the same blindness and willful ignorance out of which it is born.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
bballcrook21
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9/7/2016 4:19:08 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
Wonder what notable idiot TBR will say about this.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,337
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9/7/2016 4:29:02 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/7/2016 4:19:08 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
Wonder what notable idiot TBR will say about this.

If life is no longer comedic, and instead, death is comedic, then all life is tragic.

That's a perfectly healthy way to spend your few years on the planet....
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/7/2016 4:36:44 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
I didn't even celebrate when ubl was double tapped. Was I happy? No. Was I sad? There was some relief that a portion of the ap Qaeda v west war was over but I knew there were years to go.

I guess I just don't get celebration of death... Except in the celebrating the deceased life's accomplishments and/or contribution to society (ex: celebrating John Saunders of ESPN contribution to the network, sports, and my Sunday's watching the sports reporters)
Greyparrot
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9/7/2016 4:40:46 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/7/2016 4:36:44 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
I didn't even celebrate when ubl was double tapped. Was I happy? No. Was I sad? There was some relief that a portion of the ap Qaeda v west war was over but I knew there were years to go.

I guess I just don't get celebration of death... Except in the celebrating the deceased life's accomplishments and/or contribution to society (ex: celebrating John Saunders of ESPN contribution to the network, sports, and my Sunday's watching the sports reporters)

Celebrating the end of life and the death of stars leaves the universe with nothing but a bunch of black holes. Hooray!
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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9/7/2016 4:58:54 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/7/2016 3:58:53 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Well, Phyllis Schlafly is dead. Cue the exuberant grave-dancing.

This happens pretty often, because a lot of people don't understand the roots of the custom. So I'm going attempt to explain why it is frowned upon to speak ill of the recently deceased, or to outright celebrate death.

Picture an execution. If the entire mood is somber, than all is well. It means that the person being killed deserves it; that no elation can be found in the death because a tragedy has made the execution necessary. If the crowd is angry, there is likely something wrong with the execution. It is either being driven by emotion, with no impartial justice, or the execution itself is perceived as unjust. But probably the worst scenario is a crowd which is elated; this elicits, in most people, a sense of primal revulsion. It reveals that there is something profoundly wrong with the crowd.

So, what is wrong? It's tied into basic human nature, best explained by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn:

"If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

During the life of any heart this line keeps changing place; sometimes it is squeezed one way by exuberant evil and sometimes it shifts to allow enough space for good to flourish. One and the same human being is, at various ages, under various circumstances, a totally different human being. At times he is close to being a devil, at times to sainthood. But his name doesn't change, and to that name we ascribe the whole lot, good and evil.

Socrates taught us: 'Know thyself.'

Confronted by the pit into which we are about to toss those who have done us harm, we halt, stricken dumb: it is after all only because of the way things worked out that they were the executioners and we weren't.

From good to evil is one quaver, says the proverb.
And correspondingly, from evil to good."

What's wrong with elation over death is the mass distortion at play: the idea that the executed is 'all bad', and the sense, felt by the people howling in joy, that they are 'all good'. It's a sense of hubris, of 'casting out' of their own evil onto a target. This sort of behavior is predictable, though still troubling, at an execution, because the person who is being killed has often been deemed by the overwhelming majority of a man's fellows as irredeemable. The moral condemnation has all the weight of society behind it. When it is directed at a normal citizen who dies of normal causes, though, it is beyond the pale. For example, Miss Schlafly. I didn't like the woman very much, but I also didn't know her very well. I'm sure her children loved her. I'm sure she brought value to those around her. I'm sure she made people smile, and I'm sure that she will be remembered fondly by many. However, she also undoubtedly hurt people and made them angry. Just as I have. Just as everybody has. We're all mixed bags, and judgements of our character are largely experiential. The traditional response to death (withholding criticism, sympathizing with loved ones, and remaining somber) lets us see things as they are, promotes introspection, and leads to a wider understanding not just of the deceased but of the larger community. It cultivates a sense of humility.

To celebrate the death means to cement in one's mind a stark line between you, the dead, and their loved ones. To celebrate their death, they must be 'bad'. Therefore, to mourn their death, others around them must be 'bad'. Clearly, that makes the people celebrating 'good'. The traditional stance draws that line between good and evil within the human heart and leads to deeper understanding. The celebration of death leads on to inevitably draw the line between people, to separate others into 'good' and 'bad' camps, and to ultimately loose sight of human nature and our shared struggles in favor of blind ideological tribalism. It obscures from those afflicted with it both their perceived foe's virtues, and their perceived ally's faults, and can only lead to more of the same blindness and willful ignorance out of which it is born.

Blah blah. I'm not even going to read the whole op. Point is, when shitheds die, we ignore what a pile of excrement they were because of silly notions about death.

Don't want me to speak badly of you, don't be an a$$ while living.
thett3
Posts: 14,382
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9/7/2016 4:59:59 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/7/2016 4:58:54 AM, TBR wrote:

Blah blah. I'm not even going to read the whole op. Point is, when shitheds die, we ignore what a pile of excrement they were because of silly notions about death.

Don't want me to speak badly of you, don't be an a$$ while living.

You can't even spell "head" correctly, moron.

STOP POSTING
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,337
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9/7/2016 5:14:45 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/7/2016 4:58:54 AM, TBR wrote:

Blah blah. I'm not even going to read the whole op. Point is, when shitheds die, we ignore what a pile of excrement they were because of silly notions about death.

Don't want me to speak badly of you, don't be an a$$ while living.

Sounds like something Trump would say.
Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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9/7/2016 6:01:38 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/7/2016 3:58:53 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Well, Phyllis Schlafly is dead. Cue the exuberant grave-dancing.

This happens pretty often, because a lot of people don't understand the roots of the custom. So I'm going attempt to explain why it is frowned upon to speak ill of the recently deceased, or to outright celebrate death.

Picture an execution. If the entire mood is somber, than all is well. It means that the person being killed deserves it; that no elation can be found in the death because a tragedy has made the execution necessary. If the crowd is angry, there is likely something wrong with the execution. It is either being driven by emotion, with no impartial justice, or the execution itself is perceived as unjust. But probably the worst scenario is a crowd which is elated; this elicits, in most people, a sense of primal revulsion. It reveals that there is something profoundly wrong with the crowd.

So, what is wrong? It's tied into basic human nature, best explained by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn:

"If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

During the life of any heart this line keeps changing place; sometimes it is squeezed one way by exuberant evil and sometimes it shifts to allow enough space for good to flourish. One and the same human being is, at various ages, under various circumstances, a totally different human being. At times he is close to being a devil, at times to sainthood. But his name doesn't change, and to that name we ascribe the whole lot, good and evil.

Socrates taught us: 'Know thyself.'

Confronted by the pit into which we are about to toss those who have done us harm, we halt, stricken dumb: it is after all only because of the way things worked out that they were the executioners and we weren't.

From good to evil is one quaver, says the proverb.
And correspondingly, from evil to good."

What's wrong with elation over death is the mass distortion at play: the idea that the executed is 'all bad', and the sense, felt by the people howling in joy, that they are 'all good'. It's a sense of hubris, of 'casting out' of their own evil onto a target. This sort of behavior is predictable, though still troubling, at an execution, because the person who is being killed has often been deemed by the overwhelming majority of a man's fellows as irredeemable. The moral condemnation has all the weight of society behind it. When it is directed at a normal citizen who dies of normal causes, though, it is beyond the pale. For example, Miss Schlafly. I didn't like the woman very much, but I also didn't know her very well. I'm sure her children loved her. I'm sure she brought value to those around her. I'm sure she made people smile, and I'm sure that she will be remembered fondly by many. However, she also undoubtedly hurt people and made them angry. Just as I have. Just as everybody has. We're all mixed bags, and judgements of our character are largely experiential. The traditional response to death (withholding criticism, sympathizing with loved ones, and remaining somber) lets us see things as they are, promotes introspection, and leads to a wider understanding not just of the deceased but of the larger community. It cultivates a sense of humility.

To celebrate the death means to cement in one's mind a stark line between you, the dead, and their loved ones. To celebrate their death, they must be 'bad'. Therefore, to mourn their death, others around them must be 'bad'. Clearly, that makes the people celebrating 'good'. The traditional stance draws that line between good and evil within the human heart and leads to deeper understanding. The celebration of death leads on to inevitably draw the line between people, to separate others into 'good' and 'bad' camps, and to ultimately loose sight of human nature and our shared struggles in favor of blind ideological tribalism. It obscures from those afflicted with it both their perceived foe's virtues, and their perceived ally's faults, and can only lead to more of the same blindness and willful ignorance out of which it is born.

I think regardless of political beliefs, we can all agree with this.
Meh!
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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9/7/2016 7:51:09 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/7/2016 7:10:41 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/7/2016 6:40:04 AM, desmac wrote:
Ding Dong The Witch is Dead.

Sounds like something Trump would say.

He certainly looks like an overgrown munchkin.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,337
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9/7/2016 7:57:39 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/7/2016 7:51:09 AM, desmac wrote:
At 9/7/2016 7:10:41 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/7/2016 6:40:04 AM, desmac wrote:
Ding Dong The Witch is Dead.

Sounds like something Trump would say.

He certainly looks like an overgrown munchkin.

I really don't want to know what you look like, sorry.
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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9/7/2016 8:02:10 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/7/2016 7:57:39 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/7/2016 7:51:09 AM, desmac wrote:
At 9/7/2016 7:10:41 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/7/2016 6:40:04 AM, desmac wrote:
Ding Dong The Witch is Dead.

Sounds like something Trump would say.

He certainly looks like an overgrown munchkin.

I really don't want to know what you look like, sorry.

I am so sorry, I didn't realize you had difficulty reading.
MattTheDreamer
Posts: 1,408
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9/7/2016 12:18:19 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
I agree with this. You can hate a person as much as you want, but to be glad they're dead shows a lack of class and respect for the dead person's family.

The same thing happened with Margaret Thatcher. Upon her death people had parties and celebrated, singing Ding Dong the Witch is dead. You could disagree with her polices as much as you like, but showing such disrespect for her family is awful.

I swear, some of these people just lack any form of empathy and care only for themselves.
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/7/2016 12:46:00 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/7/2016 12:18:19 PM, MattTheDreamer wrote:
I agree with this. You can hate a person as much as you want, but to be glad they're dead shows a lack of class and respect for the dead person's family.

The same thing happened with Margaret Thatcher. Upon her death people had parties and celebrated, singing Ding Dong the Witch is dead. You could disagree with her polices as much as you like, but showing such disrespect for her family is awful.

I swear, some of these people just lack any form of empathy and care only for themselves.

They don't just lack empathy, they lack class.
slo1
Posts: 4,364
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9/8/2016 1:00:22 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/7/2016 4:59:59 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 9/7/2016 4:58:54 AM, TBR wrote:

Blah blah. I'm not even going to read the whole op. Point is, when shitheds die, we ignore what a pile of excrement they were because of silly notions about death.

Don't want me to speak badly of you, don't be an a$$ while living.

You can't even spell "head" correctly, moron.

STOP POSTING

Good burn
slo1
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9/8/2016 1:01:47 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/7/2016 4:19:08 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
Wonder what notable idiot TBR will say about this.

Idk, but Trump would say you political correct types can go fvck yourself.
slo1
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9/8/2016 1:03:24 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/7/2016 12:46:00 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/7/2016 12:18:19 PM, MattTheDreamer wrote:
I agree with this. You can hate a person as much as you want, but to be glad they're dead shows a lack of class and respect for the dead person's family.

The same thing happened with Margaret Thatcher. Upon her death people had parties and celebrated, singing Ding Dong the Witch is dead. You could disagree with her polices as much as you like, but showing such disrespect for her family is awful.

I swear, some of these people just lack any form of empathy and care only for themselves.

They don't just lack empathy, they lack class.

Omg. I just have to laugh with all the Trump supporters in this thread now explaining dead people political correctness. Lol. This is rich.
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/8/2016 1:42:30 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
Wrong again on your assumption... I don't back trump. Scroll back you'll see I didn't celebrate when ubl got double tapped. It's just classless no matter who does it.

It must be very , I'm not even sure if the word, being a hack of any stripe.