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Gary Johnson on "Illegal" Immigrants

ColeTrain
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9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
PetersSmith
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9/20/2016 2:36:09 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

What is Aleppo?
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
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"Wow"
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ColeTrain
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9/20/2016 2:38:56 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 2:36:09 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

What is Aleppo?

That is incendiary to Syrians. Just so that you know.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,819
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9/20/2016 2:40:36 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 2:38:56 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:36:09 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

What is Aleppo?

That is incendiary to Syrians. Just so that you know.

Then Johnson must have started a lot of fires when he said that.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,292
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9/20/2016 2:42:19 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 2:40:36 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:38:56 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:36:09 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

What is Aleppo?

That is incendiary to Syrians. Just so that you know.

Then Johnson must have started a lot of fires when he said that.

Lol. What do you think of the article/video?
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
BrendanD19
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9/20/2016 3:46:45 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

Okay, I have problems with that term too.
What does this have to do with his policies?
MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,104
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9/20/2016 4:47:42 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

Well if we're getting that upset over the proper use of English Grammar, let's just tear off the bandage and get it over with.

In order to build healthy relationships between the two sides, let it be known that hence forth, the term "Illegal Immigrant" shall be known as "Friendly neighbor kid who accidentally locked himself out of his house."

Furthermore, the term "Anchor Baby" shall be known as "Hi neighbor, I hear my son locked himself out of the....AH OH NO! The baby is coming...right here on your porch!"

Objections?
lannan13
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9/20/2016 4:59:48 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]
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brontoraptor
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9/20/2016 11:07:22 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

The rest of the world leaders would walk zall over him just like they have Obama and possibly worse.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
slo1
Posts: 4,318
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9/20/2016 12:48:06 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

I'm always a little mixed when it comes to word choice. On one hand words do have power. There is an entire context that comes along with some words that supercede it's literally meaning. Illegal Immigrant is one of those.

Is it helpful or productive to lable a high-school valedictorian who illegally came to the US as an infant and has been and would be a productive member of society as an illegal immigrant. Is it more productive to call he a undocumented immigrant.

I would assume the individual would prefer to be called undocumented versus illegal because of the negative context. Let's be honest. To many people in the US illegal aliens are a source of huge distain almost as if they could be considered evil.

I see how the context dehumanizes them.

On the other hand, I personally have been baffled about how words obtain their power. Using words like the "N" word should not be like saying "Voldemort" when used in a responsible context.

I think that anyone who thinks of illegal immigrants in a demeaning way should be called out on it.

I use the word, but I won't fault one arguing to get rid of it. While I don't always agree I do understand that there is context or maybe better said as "baggage" to some words and sometimes there is value to eliminate it so the subtext becomes a discussion rather than an assumption not discussed.
ColeTrain
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9/20/2016 1:58:39 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 3:46:45 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

Okay, I have problems with that term too.

Why?

What does this have to do with his policies?

The view people have on social issues such as this bear greatly on their policy.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,043
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9/20/2016 2:05:57 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 1:58:39 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 9/20/2016 3:46:45 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

Okay, I have problems with that term too.

Why?
I don't like the term, and I avoid using it. I don't believe people can be illegal. Illegal immigration I don't have a problem with that term, but when we are talking about people I personally dislike that.

What does this have to do with his policies?

The view people have on social issues such as this bear greatly on their policy.

Do you not see the point I am making?
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,292
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9/20/2016 2:13:47 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 12:48:06 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

I'm always a little mixed when it comes to word choice. On one hand words do have power. There is an entire context that comes along with some words that supercede it's literally meaning. Illegal Immigrant is one of those.

Is it helpful or productive to lable a high-school valedictorian who illegally came to the US as an infant and has been and would be a productive member of society as an illegal immigrant. Is it more productive to call he a undocumented immigrant.

I would assume the individual would prefer to be called undocumented versus illegal because of the negative context. Let's be honest. To many people in the US illegal aliens are a source of huge distain almost as if they could be considered evil.

I see how the context dehumanizes them.

On the other hand, I personally have been baffled about how words obtain their power. Using words like the "N" word should not be like saying "Voldemort" when used in a responsible context.

I think that anyone who thinks of illegal immigrants in a demeaning way should be called out on it.

I use the word, but I won't fault one arguing to get rid of it. While I don't always agree I do understand that there is context or maybe better said as "baggage" to some words and sometimes there is value to eliminate it so the subtext becomes a discussion rather than an assumption not discussed.

I don't see the problem in identifying it as illegal if they are in fact illegal. Undocumented takes the severity out of it -- but that's a bad thing. It makes it seem as if being illegal is fine. It's not. We don't excuse other crimes, so we shouldn't excuse this one either.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,292
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9/20/2016 2:27:30 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 2:05:57 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 1:58:39 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 9/20/2016 3:46:45 AM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

Okay, I have problems with that term too.

Why?
I don't like the term, and I avoid using it. I don't believe people can be illegal. Illegal immigration I don't have a problem with that term, but when we are talking about people I personally dislike that.

They still came illegally, making them illegal immigrants. We don't excuse other crimes because the word doesn't sound nice. Murder is not a friendly word, but we tag that to those who have killed. The same is true with illegal immigrants.

What does this have to do with his policies?

The view people have on social issues such as this bear greatly on their policy.

Do you not see the point I am making?

Do you not see the point I am making?
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
kevin24018
Posts: 1,804
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9/20/2016 2:29:44 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

if you drive or do anything else without a licence, is that illegal or are you just undocumented? I don't understand the confusion, if something is illegal, well it's illegal. To make people feel better since it's all about feelings, from now on we'll use (drum roll)

Illegal Undocumented Aliens, IUA for short, now what if they are Illegal but they are in fact documented IDA I guess. You could be documented and yet still illegal right? If they aren't here illegally, it's a non issue. Liberals, making Mountains again.
xus00HAY
Posts: 1,380
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9/20/2016 2:29:54 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
Well Gary, it looks like you already have a job, so the illegals are OK with you.
There are many Americans who need a job but don't have special skills or a favorable work history. Why should anyone hire him, when there are so many undocumented aliens here to steal jobs who will do a better job for less money?
slo1
Posts: 4,318
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9/20/2016 3:18:00 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 2:13:47 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 9/20/2016 12:48:06 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

I'm always a little mixed when it comes to word choice. On one hand words do have power. There is an entire context that comes along with some words that supercede it's literally meaning. Illegal Immigrant is one of those.

Is it helpful or productive to lable a high-school valedictorian who illegally came to the US as an infant and has been and would be a productive member of society as an illegal immigrant. Is it more productive to call he a undocumented immigrant.

I would assume the individual would prefer to be called undocumented versus illegal because of the negative context. Let's be honest. To many people in the US illegal aliens are a source of huge distain almost as if they could be considered evil.

I see how the context dehumanizes them.

On the other hand, I personally have been baffled about how words obtain their power. Using words like the "N" word should not be like saying "Voldemort" when used in a responsible context.

I think that anyone who thinks of illegal immigrants in a demeaning way should be called out on it.

I use the word, but I won't fault one arguing to get rid of it. While I don't always agree I do understand that there is context or maybe better said as "baggage" to some words and sometimes there is value to eliminate it so the subtext becomes a discussion rather than an assumption not discussed.

I don't see the problem in identifying it as illegal if they are in fact illegal. Undocumented takes the severity out of it -- but that's a bad thing. It makes it seem as if being illegal is fine. It's not. We don't excuse other crimes, so we shouldn't excuse this one either.

Defining the socially proper term for illegals can be disconnected from whether one believes in excusing it or not. In fact it is possible to believe that they should be called Undocumented, yet should be deported.

I noticed you completely ignored the points I made about the additional subtext including dehumanization that the tem illegal is taking on.

My last thought, anyone who is more concerned with handling something as complex as illegal immigration with absolutes such as they should all be treated as criminals or deported versus considering economic, family, population growth , unskilled labor pool etc is short sighted.

Everyone who drives an unregistered car commits a crime or administrative violation. That does mean that all crime is equal in how we handle them.
kevin24018
Posts: 1,804
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9/20/2016 4:07:31 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 3:18:00 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:13:47 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 9/20/2016 12:48:06 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

I'm always a little mixed when it comes to word choice. On one hand words do have power. There is an entire context that comes along with some words that supercede it's literally meaning. Illegal Immigrant is one of those.

Is it helpful or productive to lable a high-school valedictorian who illegally came to the US as an infant and has been and would be a productive member of society as an illegal immigrant. Is it more productive to call he a undocumented immigrant.

I would assume the individual would prefer to be called undocumented versus illegal because of the negative context. Let's be honest. To many people in the US illegal aliens are a source of huge distain almost as if they could be considered evil.

I see how the context dehumanizes them.

On the other hand, I personally have been baffled about how words obtain their power. Using words like the "N" word should not be like saying "Voldemort" when used in a responsible context.

I think that anyone who thinks of illegal immigrants in a demeaning way should be called out on it.

I use the word, but I won't fault one arguing to get rid of it. While I don't always agree I do understand that there is context or maybe better said as "baggage" to some words and sometimes there is value to eliminate it so the subtext becomes a discussion rather than an assumption not discussed.

I don't see the problem in identifying it as illegal if they are in fact illegal. Undocumented takes the severity out of it -- but that's a bad thing. It makes it seem as if being illegal is fine. It's not. We don't excuse other crimes, so we shouldn't excuse this one either.

Defining the socially proper term for illegals can be disconnected from whether one believes in excusing it or not. In fact it is possible to believe that they should be called Undocumented, yet should be deported.

I noticed you completely ignored the points I made about the additional subtext including dehumanization that the tem illegal is taking on.

My last thought, anyone who is more concerned with handling something as complex as illegal immigration with absolutes such as they should all be treated as criminals or deported versus considering economic, family, population growth , unskilled labor pool etc is short sighted.

Everyone who drives an unregistered car commits a crime or administrative violation. That does mean that all crime is equal in how we handle them.

After thinking about this a bit, I too think illegal is incorrect since it's an adjective, since they by definition have broken the law they are actually criminals "a person who has committed a crime." So the most accurate term should be Criminal Immigrant. Don't make excuses and try to take off your sjw hat for a sec and look at it factually if you can. Right or wrong it's the most accurate, factually.
many automobile issues are infractions and not crimes, hence it's only a fine, big big difference.
slo1
Posts: 4,318
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9/20/2016 5:52:52 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 4:07:31 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 3:18:00 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:13:47 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 9/20/2016 12:48:06 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

I'm always a little mixed when it comes to word choice. On one hand words do have power. There is an entire context that comes along with some words that supercede it's literally meaning. Illegal Immigrant is one of those.

Is it helpful or productive to lable a high-school valedictorian who illegally came to the US as an infant and has been and would be a productive member of society as an illegal immigrant. Is it more productive to call he a undocumented immigrant.

I would assume the individual would prefer to be called undocumented versus illegal because of the negative context. Let's be honest. To many people in the US illegal aliens are a source of huge distain almost as if they could be considered evil.

I see how the context dehumanizes them.

On the other hand, I personally have been baffled about how words obtain their power. Using words like the "N" word should not be like saying "Voldemort" when used in a responsible context.

I think that anyone who thinks of illegal immigrants in a demeaning way should be called out on it.

I use the word, but I won't fault one arguing to get rid of it. While I don't always agree I do understand that there is context or maybe better said as "baggage" to some words and sometimes there is value to eliminate it so the subtext becomes a discussion rather than an assumption not discussed.

I don't see the problem in identifying it as illegal if they are in fact illegal. Undocumented takes the severity out of it -- but that's a bad thing. It makes it seem as if being illegal is fine. It's not. We don't excuse other crimes, so we shouldn't excuse this one either.

Defining the socially proper term for illegals can be disconnected from whether one believes in excusing it or not. In fact it is possible to believe that they should be called Undocumented, yet should be deported.

I noticed you completely ignored the points I made about the additional subtext including dehumanization that the tem illegal is taking on.

My last thought, anyone who is more concerned with handling something as complex as illegal immigration with absolutes such as they should all be treated as criminals or deported versus considering economic, family, population growth , unskilled labor pool etc is short sighted.

Everyone who drives an unregistered car commits a crime or administrative violation. That does mean that all crime is equal in how we handle them.

After thinking about this a bit, I too think illegal is incorrect since it's an adjective, since they by definition have broken the law they are actually criminals "a person who has committed a crime." So the most accurate term should be Criminal Immigrant. Don't make excuses and try to take off your sjw hat for a sec and look at it factually if you can. Right or wrong it's the most accurate, factually.
many automobile issues are infractions and not crimes, hence it's only a fine, big big difference.

You can call them criminal, illegal, undocumented, or even better than most US citizen immigrants for all I care.

As you can tell I'm more interested in the subtext meeting of the word that is used.

Lastly, you made my point perfect that all crime or, "administrative violations" are not equal. There are valid reasons to consider releasing nonviolent criminals incarcerated for minor marijuana laws just like there are reasons to consider treating some criminal immigrants different than what the current laws perscribe.

Our justice system has some leeway in sentencing of criminals for a very good reason. There is no need to apply a blanket treatment against all illegals simply because they broke the law.
kevin24018
Posts: 1,804
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9/20/2016 6:07:50 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 5:52:52 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 4:07:31 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 3:18:00 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:13:47 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 9/20/2016 12:48:06 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

I'm always a little mixed when it comes to word choice. On one hand words do have power. There is an entire context that comes along with some words that supercede it's literally meaning. Illegal Immigrant is one of those.

Is it helpful or productive to lable a high-school valedictorian who illegally came to the US as an infant and has been and would be a productive member of society as an illegal immigrant. Is it more productive to call he a undocumented immigrant.

I would assume the individual would prefer to be called undocumented versus illegal because of the negative context. Let's be honest. To many people in the US illegal aliens are a source of huge distain almost as if they could be considered evil.

I see how the context dehumanizes them.

On the other hand, I personally have been baffled about how words obtain their power. Using words like the "N" word should not be like saying "Voldemort" when used in a responsible context.

I think that anyone who thinks of illegal immigrants in a demeaning way should be called out on it.

I use the word, but I won't fault one arguing to get rid of it. While I don't always agree I do understand that there is context or maybe better said as "baggage" to some words and sometimes there is value to eliminate it so the subtext becomes a discussion rather than an assumption not discussed.

I don't see the problem in identifying it as illegal if they are in fact illegal. Undocumented takes the severity out of it -- but that's a bad thing. It makes it seem as if being illegal is fine. It's not. We don't excuse other crimes, so we shouldn't excuse this one either.

Defining the socially proper term for illegals can be disconnected from whether one believes in excusing it or not. In fact it is possible to believe that they should be called Undocumented, yet should be deported.

I noticed you completely ignored the points I made about the additional subtext including dehumanization that the tem illegal is taking on.

My last thought, anyone who is more concerned with handling something as complex as illegal immigration with absolutes such as they should all be treated as criminals or deported versus considering economic, family, population growth , unskilled labor pool etc is short sighted.

Everyone who drives an unregistered car commits a crime or administrative violation. That does mean that all crime is equal in how we handle them.

After thinking about this a bit, I too think illegal is incorrect since it's an adjective, since they by definition have broken the law they are actually criminals "a person who has committed a crime." So the most accurate term should be Criminal Immigrant. Don't make excuses and try to take off your sjw hat for a sec and look at it factually if you can. Right or wrong it's the most accurate, factually.
many automobile issues are infractions and not crimes, hence it's only a fine, big big difference.

You can call them criminal, illegal, undocumented, or even better than most US citizen immigrants for all I care.

As you can tell I'm more interested in the subtext meeting of the word that is used.

Lastly, you made my point perfect that all crime or, "administrative violations" are not equal. There are valid reasons to consider releasing nonviolent criminals incarcerated for minor marijuana laws just like there are reasons to consider treating some criminal immigrants different than what the current laws perscribe.

Our justice system has some leeway in sentencing of criminals for a very good reason. There is no need to apply a blanket treatment against all illegals simply because they broke the law.

I'm sorry but there are clear definitions for Criminal, Illegal and immigrant, there is no subtext as you claim, their definitions are clear and not open to interpenetration. Again crimes and violations 2 different things. Crossing the border without coming through immigration is illegal not a violation, hence a crime making the person a criminal. Not judging if it's right or wrong, but these are facts that can't be disputed based on laws as they are today. Twisting words, adding emotion, trying to justify doesn't change the facts.
With your example of the child, she would have a "capacity" defense if her age and circumstances fit so not a valid argument. Thus it has already been addressed by law.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com...
triangle.128k
Posts: 3,641
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9/20/2016 7:32:26 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

Gary Johnson's leftism was always a problem for me, and I finally lost my support for him now. He is a downright bleeding heart libertarian, thus making me fully support Trump in this election.
ColeTrain
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9/20/2016 7:51:35 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 7:32:26 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

Gary Johnson's leftism was always a problem for me, and I finally lost my support for him now. He is a downright bleeding heart libertarian, thus making me fully support Trump in this election.

Similar sentiment. Though I would have always preferred any of the GOP candidates over Johnson already.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
ColeTrain
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9/20/2016 9:37:59 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 3:18:00 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:13:47 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 9/20/2016 12:48:06 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

I'm always a little mixed when it comes to word choice. On one hand words do have power. There is an entire context that comes along with some words that supercede it's literally meaning. Illegal Immigrant is one of those.

Is it helpful or productive to lable a high-school valedictorian who illegally came to the US as an infant and has been and would be a productive member of society as an illegal immigrant. Is it more productive to call he a undocumented immigrant.

I would assume the individual would prefer to be called undocumented versus illegal because of the negative context. Let's be honest. To many people in the US illegal aliens are a source of huge distain almost as if they could be considered evil.

I see how the context dehumanizes them.

On the other hand, I personally have been baffled about how words obtain their power. Using words like the "N" word should not be like saying "Voldemort" when used in a responsible context.

I think that anyone who thinks of illegal immigrants in a demeaning way should be called out on it.

But the majority of it is not in a demeaning. It's simply explaining what it is.

I use the word, but I won't fault one arguing to get rid of it. While I don't always agree I do understand that there is context or maybe better said as "baggage" to some words and sometimes there is value to eliminate it so the subtext becomes a discussion rather than an assumption not discussed.

I don't see the problem in identifying it as illegal if they are in fact illegal. Undocumented takes the severity out of it -- but that's a bad thing. It makes it seem as if being illegal is fine. It's not. We don't excuse other crimes, so we shouldn't excuse this one either.

Defining the socially proper term for illegals can be disconnected from whether one believes in excusing it or not. In fact it is possible to believe that they should be called Undocumented, yet should be deported.

Either way, calling someone illegal, if they infact are, is not socially improper.

I noticed you completely ignored the points I made about the additional subtext including dehumanization that the tem illegal is taking on.

I was making a general response, the exclusion of specific addressing of this point is a nonissue.

My last thought, anyone who is more concerned with handling something as complex as illegal immigration with absolutes such as they should all be treated as criminals or deported versus considering economic, family, population growth , unskilled labor pool etc is short sighted.

Legally, there is an option. That's why it's more than just "good for the country" and "they need to come here." There is a legal option, and breaking that is unfair to those who choose to come legally. Ergo, it is a crime, and illegal immigrant is an appropriate label.

Everyone who drives an unregistered car commits a crime or administrative violation. That does mean that all crime is equal in how we handle them.

Sure. But it should still be punishable by law, however variant the offense.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
1Percenter
Posts: 781
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9/20/2016 10:20:43 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 3:18:00 PM, slo1 wrote:
Defining the socially proper term for illegals can be disconnected from whether one believes in excusing it or not. In fact it is possible to believe that they should be called Undocumented, yet should be deported.

I noticed you completely ignored the points I made about the additional subtext including dehumanization that the tem illegal is taking on.


The term "illegal" is not dehumanizing in any way as only humans are described as being illegal immigrants. I have never heard anyone refer to flocks of migrating geese as being "illegal".
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,292
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9/20/2016 10:25:54 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 10:20:43 PM, 1Percenter wrote:
At 9/20/2016 3:18:00 PM, slo1 wrote:
Defining the socially proper term for illegals can be disconnected from whether one believes in excusing it or not. In fact it is possible to believe that they should be called Undocumented, yet should be deported.

I noticed you completely ignored the points I made about the additional subtext including dehumanization that the tem illegal is taking on.


The term "illegal" is not dehumanizing in any way as only humans are described as being illegal immigrants. I have never heard anyone refer to flocks of migrating geese as being "illegal".

Exactly. It is but an accurate label.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
slo1
Posts: 4,318
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9/20/2016 10:57:57 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 10:20:43 PM, 1Percenter wrote:
At 9/20/2016 3:18:00 PM, slo1 wrote:
Defining the socially proper term for illegals can be disconnected from whether one believes in excusing it or not. In fact it is possible to believe that they should be called Undocumented, yet should be deported.

I noticed you completely ignored the points I made about the additional subtext including dehumanization that the tem illegal is taking on.


The term "illegal" is not dehumanizing in any way as only humans are described as being illegal immigrants. I have never heard anyone refer to flocks of migrating geese as being "illegal".

The act of being deprived of human traits does not require one litterally become an animal. For f's sake.
slo1
Posts: 4,318
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9/20/2016 11:12:42 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 9:37:59 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 9/20/2016 3:18:00 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:13:47 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 9/20/2016 12:48:06 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 2:35:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
During an interview, Gary Johnson was a little upset about the use of "illegal" immigrant rather than "undocumented." Thoughts?

[http://thehill.com...]

I'm always a little mixed when it comes to word choice. On one hand words do have power. There is an entire context that comes along with some words that supercede it's literally meaning. Illegal Immigrant is one of those.

Is it helpful or productive to lable a high-school valedictorian who illegally came to the US as an infant and has been and would be a productive member of society as an illegal immigrant. Is it more productive to call he a undocumented immigrant.

I would assume the individual would prefer to be called undocumented versus illegal because of the negative context. Let's be honest. To many people in the US illegal aliens are a source of huge distain almost as if they could be considered evil.

I see how the context dehumanizes them.

On the other hand, I personally have been baffled about how words obtain their power. Using words like the "N" word should not be like saying "Voldemort" when used in a responsible context.

I think that anyone who thinks of illegal immigrants in a demeaning way should be called out on it.

But the majority of it is not in a demeaning. It's simply explaining what it is.

We will just have to disagree on that point. From what I hear illegal immigrants are bemoaned as the root of many problems from lack of jobs to high medical costs. You can't have a humanized stance with a policy of blanket deportation without any other considerations.

Just for to Breitbart and one can find comments like the one below all day long. Granted Brietbart does not represent main stream, but I find this sentiment all over social media.

The 1965 brown people immigration law put in place by kennedy should be abolished

I use the word, but I won't fault one arguing to get rid of it. While I don't always agree I do understand that there is context or maybe better said as "baggage" to some words and sometimes there is value to eliminate it so the subtext becomes a discussion rather than an assumption not discussed.

I don't see the problem in identifying it as illegal if they are in fact illegal. Undocumented takes the severity out of it -- but that's a bad thing. It makes it seem as if being illegal is fine. It's not. We don't excuse other crimes, so we shouldn't excuse this one either.

Defining the socially proper term for illegals can be disconnected from whether one believes in excusing it or not. In fact it is possible to believe that they should be called Undocumented, yet should be deported.

Either way, calling someone illegal, if they infact are, is not socially improper.

I noticed you completely ignored the points I made about the additional subtext including dehumanization that the tem illegal is taking on.

I was making a general response, the exclusion of specific addressing of this point is a nonissue.

My last thought, anyone who is more concerned with handling something as complex as illegal immigration with absolutes such as they should all be treated as criminals or deported versus considering economic, family, population growth , unskilled labor pool etc is short sighted.

Legally, there is an option. That's why it's more than just "good for the country" and "they need to come here." There is a legal option, and breaking that is unfair to those who choose to come legally. Ergo, it is a crime, and illegal immigrant is an appropriate label.

Everyone who drives an unregistered car commits a crime or administrative violation. That does mean that all crime is equal in how we handle them.

Sure. But it should still be punishable by law, however variant the offense.
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,292
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9/20/2016 11:36:41 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 11:12:42 PM, slo1 wrote:
I think that anyone who thinks of illegal immigrants in a demeaning way should be called out on it.

But the majority of it is not in a demeaning. It's simply explaining what it is.

We will just have to disagree on that point. From what I hear illegal immigrants are bemoaned as the root of many problems from lack of jobs to high medical costs. You can't have a humanized stance with a policy of blanket deportation without any other considerations.

It's not because of the word "illegal" that they are bemoaned. Those reasons stem from what they did -- crossing over the border illegally. The word illegal is not what changes it, it is the action involved. The world illegal bears no dehumanizing effect. It only represents the action. If that is dehumanizing, it would have been better to more carefully judge the situation and not choose to cross the border without legal precedent and proper documentation.

Just for to Breitbart and one can find comments like the one below all day long. Granted Brietbart does not represent main stream, but I find this sentiment all over social media.

The 1965 brown people immigration law put in place by kennedy should be abolished

Again, the word "illegal" does not make it dehumanizing. It's the context of what has happened.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW