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Mexico anti illegal immigrant and has wall

brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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9/23/2016 2:28:25 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
If it's good enough for Mexico...

NO TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS...

In 2006, Joseph Contreras profiled the issue of Guatemalan immigrants illegally entering Mexico for Newsweek magazine and pointed out that while Mexican president Vicente Fox demanded that the United States grant legal residency to millions of illegal Mexican immigrants, Mexico had only granted legal status to 15,000 illegal immigrants.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

WALLS, FENCES-

Some walls are made of concrete and razor wire. Others are made of soldiers, violence, bureaucracy and misinformation. While Grupo Mexico has built a long wall to stop migrants from getting on or off its long distance train, "The Beast," the Mexican government"s Southern Border Plan is also making it much harder for Central American migrants desperately fleeing violence and poverty to travel through the country.

http://www.counterpunch.org...
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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9/23/2016 2:44:37 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 2:28:25 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
If it's good enough for Mexico...

NO TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS...

In 2006, Joseph Contreras profiled the issue of Guatemalan immigrants illegally entering Mexico for Newsweek magazine and pointed out that while Mexican president Vicente Fox demanded that the United States grant legal residency to millions of illegal Mexican immigrants, Mexico had only granted legal status to 15,000 illegal immigrants.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

WALLS, FENCES-

Some walls are made of concrete and razor wire. Others are made of soldiers, violence, bureaucracy and misinformation. While Grupo Mexico has built a long wall to stop migrants from getting on or off its long distance train, "The Beast," the Mexican government"s Southern Border Plan is also making it much harder for Central American migrants desperately fleeing violence and poverty to travel through the country.

http://www.counterpunch.org...

So it is your position that the US should strive to be as good as Mexico? I will never understand the conservative interpretation of exceptionalism,
kevin24018
Posts: 1,851
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9/23/2016 2:57:00 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 2:44:37 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/23/2016 2:28:25 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
If it's good enough for Mexico...

NO TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS...

In 2006, Joseph Contreras profiled the issue of Guatemalan immigrants illegally entering Mexico for Newsweek magazine and pointed out that while Mexican president Vicente Fox demanded that the United States grant legal residency to millions of illegal Mexican immigrants, Mexico had only granted legal status to 15,000 illegal immigrants.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

WALLS, FENCES-

Some walls are made of concrete and razor wire. Others are made of soldiers, violence, bureaucracy and misinformation. While Grupo Mexico has built a long wall to stop migrants from getting on or off its long distance train, "The Beast," the Mexican government"s Southern Border Plan is also making it much harder for Central American migrants desperately fleeing violence and poverty to travel through the country.

http://www.counterpunch.org...

So it is your position that the US should strive to be as good as Mexico? I will never understand the conservative interpretation of exceptionalism,

To me it's the inconstant application and enforcement of laws, sanctuary cities for example, part of our exceptionalism is our laws and processes for changing them if warranted, what other laws can be openly ignored, where is the line? is there a list somewhere? How this nations works, to the best of my knowledge, is you follow the laws, if they become unjust or need to change, there is a process for that, however until that happens you still must follow it. Just because you feel it's wrong or unjust doesn't mean it should be enforced. This isn't a racial issue since it applies to ALL illegals, so don't go with the civil rights stuff totally different, they were already legally in the country etc.
kevin24018
Posts: 1,851
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9/23/2016 2:57:42 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 2:57:00 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 2:44:37 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/23/2016 2:28:25 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
If it's good enough for Mexico...

NO TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS...

In 2006, Joseph Contreras profiled the issue of Guatemalan immigrants illegally entering Mexico for Newsweek magazine and pointed out that while Mexican president Vicente Fox demanded that the United States grant legal residency to millions of illegal Mexican immigrants, Mexico had only granted legal status to 15,000 illegal immigrants.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

WALLS, FENCES-

Some walls are made of concrete and razor wire. Others are made of soldiers, violence, bureaucracy and misinformation. While Grupo Mexico has built a long wall to stop migrants from getting on or off its long distance train, "The Beast," the Mexican government"s Southern Border Plan is also making it much harder for Central American migrants desperately fleeing violence and poverty to travel through the country.

http://www.counterpunch.org...

So it is your position that the US should strive to be as good as Mexico? I will never understand the conservative interpretation of exceptionalism,

To me it's the inconstant application and enforcement of laws, sanctuary cities for example, part of our exceptionalism is our laws and processes for changing them if warranted, what other laws can be openly ignored, where is the line? is there a list somewhere? How this nations works, to the best of my knowledge, is you follow the laws, if they become unjust or need to change, there is a process for that, however until that happens you still must follow it. Just because you feel it's wrong or unjust doesn't mean it shouldn't be enforced. This isn't a racial issue since it applies to ALL illegals, so don't go with the civil rights stuff totally different, they were already legally in the country etc.

fixed dam it
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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9/23/2016 3:12:37 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 2:57:00 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 2:44:37 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/23/2016 2:28:25 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
If it's good enough for Mexico...

NO TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS...

In 2006, Joseph Contreras profiled the issue of Guatemalan immigrants illegally entering Mexico for Newsweek magazine and pointed out that while Mexican president Vicente Fox demanded that the United States grant legal residency to millions of illegal Mexican immigrants, Mexico had only granted legal status to 15,000 illegal immigrants.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

WALLS, FENCES-

Some walls are made of concrete and razor wire. Others are made of soldiers, violence, bureaucracy and misinformation. While Grupo Mexico has built a long wall to stop migrants from getting on or off its long distance train, "The Beast," the Mexican government"s Southern Border Plan is also making it much harder for Central American migrants desperately fleeing violence and poverty to travel through the country.

http://www.counterpunch.org...

So it is your position that the US should strive to be as good as Mexico? I will never understand the conservative interpretation of exceptionalism,

To me it's the inconstant application and enforcement of laws, sanctuary cities for example, part of our exceptionalism is our laws and processes for changing them if warranted, what other laws can be openly ignored, where is the line? is there a list somewhere? How this nations works, to the best of my knowledge, is you follow the laws, if they become unjust or need to change, there is a process for that, however until that happens you still must follow it. Just because you feel it's wrong or unjust doesn't mean it should be enforced. This isn't a racial issue since it applies to ALL illegals, so don't go with the civil rights stuff totally different, they were already legally in the country etc.

I can understand some strong feelings on this part of the discussion. Its worth diving into, but not in this thread because it is aimed at walls.

The question, and my response, have to do with how we as a country see ourselves. The OP sounds like ~"if its good enough for Mexico, then its good enough for the US". I contend that the US is a much much better and stronger country than Mexico. I have no real interest in perusing the lowest common denominator.
kevin24018
Posts: 1,851
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9/23/2016 3:20:21 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 3:12:37 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/23/2016 2:57:00 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 2:44:37 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/23/2016 2:28:25 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
If it's good enough for Mexico...

NO TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS...

In 2006, Joseph Contreras profiled the issue of Guatemalan immigrants illegally entering Mexico for Newsweek magazine and pointed out that while Mexican president Vicente Fox demanded that the United States grant legal residency to millions of illegal Mexican immigrants, Mexico had only granted legal status to 15,000 illegal immigrants.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

WALLS, FENCES-

Some walls are made of concrete and razor wire. Others are made of soldiers, violence, bureaucracy and misinformation. While Grupo Mexico has built a long wall to stop migrants from getting on or off its long distance train, "The Beast," the Mexican government"s Southern Border Plan is also making it much harder for Central American migrants desperately fleeing violence and poverty to travel through the country.

http://www.counterpunch.org...

So it is your position that the US should strive to be as good as Mexico? I will never understand the conservative interpretation of exceptionalism,

To me it's the inconstant application and enforcement of laws, sanctuary cities for example, part of our exceptionalism is our laws and processes for changing them if warranted, what other laws can be openly ignored, where is the line? is there a list somewhere? How this nations works, to the best of my knowledge, is you follow the laws, if they become unjust or need to change, there is a process for that, however until that happens you still must follow it. Just because you feel it's wrong or unjust doesn't mean it should be enforced. This isn't a racial issue since it applies to ALL illegals, so don't go with the civil rights stuff totally different, they were already legally in the country etc.

I can understand some strong feelings on this part of the discussion. Its worth diving into, but not in this thread because it is aimed at walls.

The question, and my response, have to do with how we as a country see ourselves. The OP sounds like ~"if its good enough for Mexico, then its good enough for the US". I contend that the US is a much much better and stronger country than Mexico. I have no real interest in perusing the lowest common denominator.

I too dislike the argument, "well they did it" as a way to justify something, we aren't going to line our borders with automated gun turrets that are motion activated because other countries shoot people trying to cross, well they did it, however if there is any take away it's interesting they have a border security issues (never cared enough to look) and I guess some hypocrisy if they are anti wall for the U.S. not sure they are just saying.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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9/23/2016 9:01:20 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 2:44:37 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/23/2016 2:28:25 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
If it's good enough for Mexico...

NO TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS...

In 2006, Joseph Contreras profiled the issue of Guatemalan immigrants illegally entering Mexico for Newsweek magazine and pointed out that while Mexican president Vicente Fox demanded that the United States grant legal residency to millions of illegal Mexican immigrants, Mexico had only granted legal status to 15,000 illegal immigrants.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

WALLS, FENCES-

Some walls are made of concrete and razor wire. Others are made of soldiers, violence, bureaucracy and misinformation. While Grupo Mexico has built a long wall to stop migrants from getting on or off its long distance train, "The Beast," the Mexican government"s Southern Border Plan is also making it much harder for Central American migrants desperately fleeing violence and poverty to travel through the country.

http://www.counterpunch.org...

So it is your position that the US should strive to be as good as Mexico? I will never understand the conservative interpretation of exceptionalism,

You think America is better than another existing culture? Why heck, you're right. Mexico sucks, so let's see if we can turn the U.S. into its twin brother by opening up the border.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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9/23/2016 9:10:16 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 2:44:37 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/23/2016 2:28:25 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
If it's good enough for Mexico...

NO TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS...

In 2006, Joseph Contreras profiled the issue of Guatemalan immigrants illegally entering Mexico for Newsweek magazine and pointed out that while Mexican president Vicente Fox demanded that the United States grant legal residency to millions of illegal Mexican immigrants, Mexico had only granted legal status to 15,000 illegal immigrants.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

WALLS, FENCES-

Some walls are made of concrete and razor wire. Others are made of soldiers, violence, bureaucracy and misinformation. While Grupo Mexico has built a long wall to stop migrants from getting on or off its long distance train, "The Beast," the Mexican government"s Southern Border Plan is also making it much harder for Central American migrants desperately fleeing violence and poverty to travel through the country.

http://www.counterpunch.org...

So it is your position that the US should strive to be as good as Mexico? I will never understand the conservative interpretation of exceptionalism,

Mexico has that boundry set up to not allow people from an even poorer nation in. Why? To protect THEIR country. Ya see, America is a single country just like hundreds of other single countries. We have borders. We have laws. Why? To protect THIS country. China is protecting THEIR country. Why? Because they aren't Pakistan or Peru or Egypt. They are China, an individual nation responsible for taking care of itself.

Liberals scream that they need more help financially, don't get that help, then want to pour more people into the country. So now...the government can't afford to help you. There are too many people to support and more and more piling in. So? No one gets anything. Socialism and multiculturism are scrapping the idea of many sharing resources and wealth happily to? The equal sharing of misery. Liberalism wants equality of wealth, yet makes that very thing unaffordable with its immigration worldview, so no one gets jack.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
PervRat
Posts: 963
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9/23/2016 9:15:35 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 2:28:25 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
If it's good enough for Mexico...


This is what is known as the "two wrongs" fallacy. It does not follow that if someone else does something, its automatically okay for you to do it. Your reasoning is thus entirely invalid.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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9/23/2016 9:44:18 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 9:15:35 PM, PervRat wrote:
At 9/23/2016 2:28:25 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
If it's good enough for Mexico...


This is what is known as the "two wrongs" fallacy. It does not follow that if someone else does something, its automatically okay for you to do it. Your reasoning is thus entirely invalid.

1)It shows Mexico's former President's criticism of Trumps wall was full blown hypocrisy.

2)Wrong? For who? Citizens of another country that isn't America? Is it wrong if we don't cut every Chinese citizen a welfare check? Why or why not?
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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9/23/2016 9:49:03 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 9:15:35 PM, PervRat wrote:
At 9/23/2016 2:28:25 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
If it's good enough for Mexico...


This is what is known as the "two wrongs" fallacy. It does not follow that if someone else does something, its automatically okay for you to do it. Your reasoning is thus entirely invalid.

So...we should bring in 20,000,000 Russians to help them out.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
PervRat
Posts: 963
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9/23/2016 10:25:50 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
1)It shows Mexico's former President's criticism of Trumps wall was full blown hypocrisy.

2)Wrong? For who? Citizens of another country that isn't America? Is it wrong if we don't cut every Chinese citizen a welfare check? Why or why not?

Neither of those statements have any support, and neither have anything to do with the logical fallacy you committed.

If you do not understand what a logical fallacy is, there really isn't a place for you in a debate venue.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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9/23/2016 11:18:26 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 10:25:50 PM, PervRat wrote:
1)It shows Mexico's former President's criticism of Trumps wall was full blown hypocrisy.

2)Wrong? For who? Citizens of another country that isn't America? Is it wrong if we don't cut every Chinese citizen a welfare check? Why or why not?

Neither of those statements have any support, and neither have anything to do with the logical fallacy you committed.

If you do not understand what a logical fallacy is, there really isn't a place for you in a debate venue.

But...but...I've never debated...

Get out of here with that. Stating that whst Mexico is doing makes sense is not a "logical fallacy". Now tell us why we can't bring in 20,000,000 Communists. Remember multiculture and tollerance.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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9/23/2016 11:19:41 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 10:25:50 PM, PervRat wrote:
1)It shows Mexico's former President's criticism of Trumps wall was full blown hypocrisy.

2)Wrong? For who? Citizens of another country that isn't America? Is it wrong if we don't cut every Chinese citizen a welfare check? Why or why not?

Neither of those statements have any support, and neither have anything to do with the logical fallacy you committed.

If you do not understand what a logical fallacy is, there really isn't a place for you in a debate venue.

You are deflecting the point. Do you know what deflecting is?
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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9/24/2016 1:19:20 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 9:10:16 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/23/2016 2:44:37 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/23/2016 2:28:25 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
If it's good enough for Mexico...

NO TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS...

In 2006, Joseph Contreras profiled the issue of Guatemalan immigrants illegally entering Mexico for Newsweek magazine and pointed out that while Mexican president Vicente Fox demanded that the United States grant legal residency to millions of illegal Mexican immigrants, Mexico had only granted legal status to 15,000 illegal immigrants.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

WALLS, FENCES-

Some walls are made of concrete and razor wire. Others are made of soldiers, violence, bureaucracy and misinformation. While Grupo Mexico has built a long wall to stop migrants from getting on or off its long distance train, "The Beast," the Mexican government"s Southern Border Plan is also making it much harder for Central American migrants desperately fleeing violence and poverty to travel through the country.

http://www.counterpunch.org...

So it is your position that the US should strive to be as good as Mexico? I will never understand the conservative interpretation of exceptionalism,

Mexico has that boundry set up to not allow people from an even poorer nation in. Why? To protect THEIR country. Ya see, America is a single country just like hundreds of other single countries. We have borders. We have laws. Why? To protect THIS country. China is protecting THEIR country. Why? Because they aren't Pakistan or Peru or Egypt. They are China, an individual nation responsible for taking care of itself.

Liberals scream that they need more help financially, don't get that help, then want to pour more people into the country. So now...the government can't afford to help you. There are too many people to support and more and more piling in. So? No one gets anything. Socialism and multiculturism are scrapping the idea of many sharing resources and wealth happily to? The equal sharing of misery. Liberalism wants equality of wealth, yet makes that very thing unaffordable with its immigration worldview, so no one gets jack.

Another endless straw man.

The wall is stupid, not because immigration doesn't need to be controlled, but because building a wall is a stupid way to do it.
TBR
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9/24/2016 1:21:01 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 9:01:20 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/23/2016 2:44:37 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/23/2016 2:28:25 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
If it's good enough for Mexico...

NO TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS...

In 2006, Joseph Contreras profiled the issue of Guatemalan immigrants illegally entering Mexico for Newsweek magazine and pointed out that while Mexican president Vicente Fox demanded that the United States grant legal residency to millions of illegal Mexican immigrants, Mexico had only granted legal status to 15,000 illegal immigrants.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

WALLS, FENCES-

Some walls are made of concrete and razor wire. Others are made of soldiers, violence, bureaucracy and misinformation. While Grupo Mexico has built a long wall to stop migrants from getting on or off its long distance train, "The Beast," the Mexican government"s Southern Border Plan is also making it much harder for Central American migrants desperately fleeing violence and poverty to travel through the country.

http://www.counterpunch.org...

So it is your position that the US should strive to be as good as Mexico? I will never understand the conservative interpretation of exceptionalism,

You think America is better than another existing culture? Why heck, you're right. Mexico sucks, so let's see if we can turn the U.S. into its twin brother by opening up the border.

You are mistaken on my position as well as "liberals". The point is, the WALL is a dumb-a$$ idea. Get it?
Vox_Veritas
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9/24/2016 4:00:28 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 11:18:26 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/23/2016 10:25:50 PM, PervRat wrote:
1)It shows Mexico's former President's criticism of Trumps wall was full blown hypocrisy.

2)Wrong? For who? Citizens of another country that isn't America? Is it wrong if we don't cut every Chinese citizen a welfare check? Why or why not?

Neither of those statements have any support, and neither have anything to do with the logical fallacy you committed.

If you do not understand what a logical fallacy is, there really isn't a place for you in a debate venue.

But...but...I've never debated...


Get out of here with that. Stating that whst Mexico is doing makes sense is not a "logical fallacy". Now tell us why we can't bring in 20,000,000 Communists. Remember multiculture and tollerance.

Russian does not equal Communist.
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