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How "The Wall" would benefit Mexico

Vox_Veritas
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9/23/2016 3:26:10 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
I'm referring here to any mechanism that prevents people from crossing the US-Mexico border illegally, not necessarily a literal wall as Donald Trump has proposed.

1. Mexico has relatively strict gun laws. The U.S. has loose gun laws. However, because of the open border, guns flow across it from the U.S. into Mexico, arming the drug cartels and fueling the Mexican Drug War.
2. At least to some extent, illegal immigration from Mexico to the US serves as a brain drain on our neighbour to the south. Not all illegals are low-skilled and poorly-educated; some percentage of them comprise Mexico's best and brightest, leaving the country and taking their valuable skills with then.
3. The open border serves as a "pressure valve" for Mexico; it doesn't have to fix its dire economic problems because the people who are in a bind will simply cross the border into the United States. If the border closes, the government will be forced to fix the economic problems that plague their country.
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TBR
Posts: 9,991
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9/23/2016 3:31:39 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 9/23/2016 3:26:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
I'm referring here to any mechanism that prevents people from crossing the US-Mexico border illegally, not necessarily a literal wall as Donald Trump has proposed.

1. Mexico has relatively strict gun laws. The U.S. has loose gun laws. However, because of the open border, guns flow across it from the U.S. into Mexico, arming the drug cartels and fueling the Mexican Drug War.
2. At least to some extent, illegal immigration from Mexico to the US serves as a brain drain on our neighbour to the south. Not all illegals are low-skilled and poorly-educated; some percentage of them comprise Mexico's best and brightest, leaving the country and taking their valuable skills with then.
3. The open border serves as a "pressure valve" for Mexico; it doesn't have to fix its dire economic problems because the people who are in a bind will simply cross the border into the United States. If the border closes, the government will be forced to fix the economic problems that plague their country.

All reasonable points.

The problem with Trumps plan is - its not a plan at all. Its an appeal to emotion. Better tech at the boarder is the way to go, not a moronic wall.
Vox_Veritas
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9/23/2016 3:41:18 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 9/23/2016 3:31:39 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:26:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
I'm referring here to any mechanism that prevents people from crossing the US-Mexico border illegally, not necessarily a literal wall as Donald Trump has proposed.

1. Mexico has relatively strict gun laws. The U.S. has loose gun laws. However, because of the open border, guns flow across it from the U.S. into Mexico, arming the drug cartels and fueling the Mexican Drug War.
2. At least to some extent, illegal immigration from Mexico to the US serves as a brain drain on our neighbour to the south. Not all illegals are low-skilled and poorly-educated; some percentage of them comprise Mexico's best and brightest, leaving the country and taking their valuable skills with then.
3. The open border serves as a "pressure valve" for Mexico; it doesn't have to fix its dire economic problems because the people who are in a bind will simply cross the border into the United States. If the border closes, the government will be forced to fix the economic problems that plague their country.

All reasonable points.

The problem with Trumps plan is - its not a plan at all. Its an appeal to emotion. Better tech at the boarder is the way to go, not a moronic wall.

I think that a system of drones patrolling the border would be far cheaper and far more efficient than a Great Wall of Trump.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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FaustianJustice
Posts: 7,645
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9/23/2016 3:42:09 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 9/23/2016 3:26:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
I'm referring here to any mechanism that prevents people from crossing the US-Mexico border illegally, not necessarily a literal wall as Donald Trump has proposed.

1. Mexico has relatively strict gun laws. The U.S. has loose gun laws. However, because of the open border, guns flow across it from the U.S. into Mexico, arming the drug cartels and fueling the Mexican Drug War.
2. At least to some extent, illegal immigration from Mexico to the US serves as a brain drain on our neighbour to the south. Not all illegals are low-skilled and poorly-educated; some percentage of them comprise Mexico's best and brightest, leaving the country and taking their valuable skills with then.
3. The open border serves as a "pressure valve" for Mexico; it doesn't have to fix its dire economic problems because the people who are in a bind will simply cross the border into the United States. If the border closes, the government will be forced to fix the economic problems that plague their country.

Makes one wonder why they haven't already built a wall.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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kevin24018
Posts: 3,008
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9/23/2016 3:44:18 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 9/23/2016 3:31:39 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:26:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
I'm referring here to any mechanism that prevents people from crossing the US-Mexico border illegally, not necessarily a literal wall as Donald Trump has proposed.

1. Mexico has relatively strict gun laws. The U.S. has loose gun laws. However, because of the open border, guns flow across it from the U.S. into Mexico, arming the drug cartels and fueling the Mexican Drug War.
2. At least to some extent, illegal immigration from Mexico to the US serves as a brain drain on our neighbour to the south. Not all illegals are low-skilled and poorly-educated; some percentage of them comprise Mexico's best and brightest, leaving the country and taking their valuable skills with then.
3. The open border serves as a "pressure valve" for Mexico; it doesn't have to fix its dire economic problems because the people who are in a bind will simply cross the border into the United States. If the border closes, the government will be forced to fix the economic problems that plague their country.

All reasonable points.

The problem with Trumps plan is - its not a plan at all. Its an appeal to emotion. Better tech at the boarder is the way to go, not a moronic wall.

Better tech is the way to go, agreed, far more effective, the great wall of China may have worked for it's time, or the Berlin wall, but there's no real way to "upgrade" those, tech yes, as better technology comes along it will be more effective, bottom line is Mexico needs to clean up it's country so people don't feel they need to risk their very lives to flee, but that's something different.
BobTheRocket2 wrote:
Arguing with a liberal is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what, it's going to knock over the pieces, crap all over the board, and strut around like it's victorious.

"Beware the engineers of society, I say, who would make everyone in all the world equal. Opportunity should be equal, must be equal, but achievement must remain individual.
- Drizzt Do'Urden"
16kadams
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9/23/2016 3:44:35 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 9/23/2016 3:42:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:26:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
I'm referring here to any mechanism that prevents people from crossing the US-Mexico border illegally, not necessarily a literal wall as Donald Trump has proposed.

1. Mexico has relatively strict gun laws. The U.S. has loose gun laws. However, because of the open border, guns flow across it from the U.S. into Mexico, arming the drug cartels and fueling the Mexican Drug War.
2. At least to some extent, illegal immigration from Mexico to the US serves as a brain drain on our neighbour to the south. Not all illegals are low-skilled and poorly-educated; some percentage of them comprise Mexico's best and brightest, leaving the country and taking their valuable skills with then.
3. The open border serves as a "pressure valve" for Mexico; it doesn't have to fix its dire economic problems because the people who are in a bind will simply cross the border into the United States. If the border closes, the government will be forced to fix the economic problems that plague their country.

Makes one wonder why they haven't already built a wall.

Because it would hurt them because remittances make up a larger share of their revenue than oil... http://www.forbes.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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9/23/2016 3:44:36 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 9/23/2016 3:41:18 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:31:39 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:26:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
I'm referring here to any mechanism that prevents people from crossing the US-Mexico border illegally, not necessarily a literal wall as Donald Trump has proposed.

1. Mexico has relatively strict gun laws. The U.S. has loose gun laws. However, because of the open border, guns flow across it from the U.S. into Mexico, arming the drug cartels and fueling the Mexican Drug War.
2. At least to some extent, illegal immigration from Mexico to the US serves as a brain drain on our neighbour to the south. Not all illegals are low-skilled and poorly-educated; some percentage of them comprise Mexico's best and brightest, leaving the country and taking their valuable skills with then.
3. The open border serves as a "pressure valve" for Mexico; it doesn't have to fix its dire economic problems because the people who are in a bind will simply cross the border into the United States. If the border closes, the government will be forced to fix the economic problems that plague their country.

All reasonable points.

The problem with Trumps plan is - its not a plan at all. Its an appeal to emotion. Better tech at the boarder is the way to go, not a moronic wall.

I think that a system of drones patrolling the border would be far cheaper and far more efficient than a Great Wall of Trump.

Agreed.

Look. Tech only improves, and adjusts quickly to changing situations. Walls are unable to change in any way other than disintegrate.
16kadams
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9/23/2016 3:46:55 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 9/23/2016 3:44:18 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:31:39 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:26:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
I'm referring here to any mechanism that prevents people from crossing the US-Mexico border illegally, not necessarily a literal wall as Donald Trump has proposed.

1. Mexico has relatively strict gun laws. The U.S. has loose gun laws. However, because of the open border, guns flow across it from the U.S. into Mexico, arming the drug cartels and fueling the Mexican Drug War.
2. At least to some extent, illegal immigration from Mexico to the US serves as a brain drain on our neighbour to the south. Not all illegals are low-skilled and poorly-educated; some percentage of them comprise Mexico's best and brightest, leaving the country and taking their valuable skills with then.
3. The open border serves as a "pressure valve" for Mexico; it doesn't have to fix its dire economic problems because the people who are in a bind will simply cross the border into the United States. If the border closes, the government will be forced to fix the economic problems that plague their country.

All reasonable points.

The problem with Trumps plan is - its not a plan at all. Its an appeal to emotion. Better tech at the boarder is the way to go, not a moronic wall.

Better tech is the way to go, agreed, far more effective, the great wall of China may have worked for it's time, or the Berlin wall, but there's no real way to "upgrade" those, tech yes, as better technology comes along it will be more effective, bottom line is Mexico needs to clean up it's country so people don't feel they need to risk their very lives to flee, but that's something different.

I actually think a combination of the two is a way to go. You need a border fence--I did a debate on it you can see if you want to see how it would be built--is important for slowing them down. Drones simply allow us to see them. The fence would allow us to intercept them where the drone flags a crossing. I think both are needed.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
FaustianJustice
Posts: 7,645
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9/23/2016 3:47:10 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 9/23/2016 3:44:35 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:42:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:26:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
I'm referring here to any mechanism that prevents people from crossing the US-Mexico border illegally, not necessarily a literal wall as Donald Trump has proposed.

1. Mexico has relatively strict gun laws. The U.S. has loose gun laws. However, because of the open border, guns flow across it from the U.S. into Mexico, arming the drug cartels and fueling the Mexican Drug War.
2. At least to some extent, illegal immigration from Mexico to the US serves as a brain drain on our neighbour to the south. Not all illegals are low-skilled and poorly-educated; some percentage of them comprise Mexico's best and brightest, leaving the country and taking their valuable skills with then.
3. The open border serves as a "pressure valve" for Mexico; it doesn't have to fix its dire economic problems because the people who are in a bind will simply cross the border into the United States. If the border closes, the government will be forced to fix the economic problems that plague their country.

Makes one wonder why they haven't already built a wall.

Because it would hurt them because remittances make up a larger share of their revenue than oil... http://www.forbes.com...

I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek. Casual observation with regards to a porous border between the two countries is enough to prompt the idea that perhaps a wall is not in Mexico's best interest.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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kevin24018
Posts: 3,008
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9/23/2016 3:49:53 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 9/23/2016 3:46:55 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:44:18 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:31:39 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:26:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
I'm referring here to any mechanism that prevents people from crossing the US-Mexico border illegally, not necessarily a literal wall as Donald Trump has proposed.

1. Mexico has relatively strict gun laws. The U.S. has loose gun laws. However, because of the open border, guns flow across it from the U.S. into Mexico, arming the drug cartels and fueling the Mexican Drug War.
2. At least to some extent, illegal immigration from Mexico to the US serves as a brain drain on our neighbour to the south. Not all illegals are low-skilled and poorly-educated; some percentage of them comprise Mexico's best and brightest, leaving the country and taking their valuable skills with then.
3. The open border serves as a "pressure valve" for Mexico; it doesn't have to fix its dire economic problems because the people who are in a bind will simply cross the border into the United States. If the border closes, the government will be forced to fix the economic problems that plague their country.

All reasonable points.

The problem with Trumps plan is - its not a plan at all. Its an appeal to emotion. Better tech at the boarder is the way to go, not a moronic wall.

Better tech is the way to go, agreed, far more effective, the great wall of China may have worked for it's time, or the Berlin wall, but there's no real way to "upgrade" those, tech yes, as better technology comes along it will be more effective, bottom line is Mexico needs to clean up it's country so people don't feel they need to risk their very lives to flee, but that's something different.

I actually think a combination of the two is a way to go. You need a border fence--I did a debate on it you can see if you want to see how it would be built--is important for slowing them down. Drones simply allow us to see them. The fence would allow us to intercept them where the drone flags a crossing. I think both are needed.

yes there would need to be a physical barrier, tech not just limited to drones, I don't see drones all the useful with this.
BobTheRocket2 wrote:
Arguing with a liberal is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what, it's going to knock over the pieces, crap all over the board, and strut around like it's victorious.

"Beware the engineers of society, I say, who would make everyone in all the world equal. Opportunity should be equal, must be equal, but achievement must remain individual.
- Drizzt Do'Urden"
kevin24018
Posts: 3,008
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9/23/2016 3:51:46 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 9/23/2016 3:47:10 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:44:35 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:42:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:26:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
I'm referring here to any mechanism that prevents people from crossing the US-Mexico border illegally, not necessarily a literal wall as Donald Trump has proposed.

1. Mexico has relatively strict gun laws. The U.S. has loose gun laws. However, because of the open border, guns flow across it from the U.S. into Mexico, arming the drug cartels and fueling the Mexican Drug War.
2. At least to some extent, illegal immigration from Mexico to the US serves as a brain drain on our neighbour to the south. Not all illegals are low-skilled and poorly-educated; some percentage of them comprise Mexico's best and brightest, leaving the country and taking their valuable skills with then.
3. The open border serves as a "pressure valve" for Mexico; it doesn't have to fix its dire economic problems because the people who are in a bind will simply cross the border into the United States. If the border closes, the government will be forced to fix the economic problems that plague their country.

Makes one wonder why they haven't already built a wall.

Because it would hurt them because remittances make up a larger share of their revenue than oil... http://www.forbes.com...

I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek. Casual observation with regards to a porous border between the two countries is enough to prompt the idea that perhaps a wall is not in Mexico's best interest.

let's not forget the bribe money from the drug cartels, that above all else is why Mexico isn't doing anything to help or even cares.
BobTheRocket2 wrote:
Arguing with a liberal is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what, it's going to knock over the pieces, crap all over the board, and strut around like it's victorious.

"Beware the engineers of society, I say, who would make everyone in all the world equal. Opportunity should be equal, must be equal, but achievement must remain individual.
- Drizzt Do'Urden"
Skepsikyma
Posts: 9,139
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9/23/2016 4:57:17 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 9/23/2016 3:26:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
I'm referring here to any mechanism that prevents people from crossing the US-Mexico border illegally, not necessarily a literal wall as Donald Trump has proposed.

1. Mexico has relatively strict gun laws. The U.S. has loose gun laws. However, because of the open border, guns flow across it from the U.S. into Mexico, arming the drug cartels and fueling the Mexican Drug War.
2. At least to some extent, illegal immigration from Mexico to the US serves as a brain drain on our neighbour to the south. Not all illegals are low-skilled and poorly-educated; some percentage of them comprise Mexico's best and brightest, leaving the country and taking their valuable skills with then.
3. The open border serves as a "pressure valve" for Mexico; it doesn't have to fix its dire economic problems because the people who are in a bind will simply cross the border into the United States. If the border closes, the government will be forced to fix the economic problems that plague their country.

Yeah, the pressure valve option is why the more corrupt Mexican officials are not in any hurry to address the border crisis. It's in the long term interests of the common people to fix it, but they understandably aren't thinking in the long term right now (Maslow and all that jazz).
"See now Oblivion shimmering all around us, its very tranquility deadlier than tempest. How little all our keels have troubled it."
- Lord Dunsany -

"Over her head the stars, the thoughts of God in the heavens,
Shone on the eyes of man, who had ceased to marvel and worship"
- Henry Longfellow -

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dylancatlow
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9/23/2016 6:31:41 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
I think these are all really interesting points. I simply do not get why the Left is so resistant against the idea of building a border wall other than (1) Trump is lobbying for it so it must be condemned (2) it would interfere with the Left's plan of importing pro-democratic voting blocs to help politically long term, in which case their pretense of concern for the poor, blighted Mexicans is nothing but a hoax.
"In case anyone hasn't noticed it, the West is in extremis. The undertaker is checking his watch at the foot of its bed, and there's a sinister kettle of croaking, money-feathered vultures on the roof."
NothingSpecial99
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9/23/2016 7:10:51 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 9/23/2016 3:41:18 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:31:39 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:26:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
I'm referring here to any mechanism that prevents people from crossing the US-Mexico border illegally, not necessarily a literal wall as Donald Trump has proposed.

1. Mexico has relatively strict gun laws. The U.S. has loose gun laws. However, because of the open border, guns flow across it from the U.S. into Mexico, arming the drug cartels and fueling the Mexican Drug War.
2. At least to some extent, illegal immigration from Mexico to the US serves as a brain drain on our neighbour to the south. Not all illegals are low-skilled and poorly-educated; some percentage of them comprise Mexico's best and brightest, leaving the country and taking their valuable skills with then.
3. The open border serves as a "pressure valve" for Mexico; it doesn't have to fix its dire economic problems because the people who are in a bind will simply cross the border into the United States. If the border closes, the government will be forced to fix the economic problems that plague their country.

All reasonable points.

The problem with Trumps plan is - its not a plan at all. Its an appeal to emotion. Better tech at the boarder is the way to go, not a moronic wall.

I think that a system of drones patrolling the border would be far cheaper and far more efficient than a Great Wall of Trump.

In addition, seismic activity equipment should be installed to detect any tunnelers
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kevin24018
Posts: 3,008
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9/23/2016 8:49:08 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 9/23/2016 7:10:51 PM, NothingSpecial99 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:41:18 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:31:39 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:26:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
I'm referring here to any mechanism that prevents people from crossing the US-Mexico border illegally, not necessarily a literal wall as Donald Trump has proposed.

1. Mexico has relatively strict gun laws. The U.S. has loose gun laws. However, because of the open border, guns flow across it from the U.S. into Mexico, arming the drug cartels and fueling the Mexican Drug War.
2. At least to some extent, illegal immigration from Mexico to the US serves as a brain drain on our neighbour to the south. Not all illegals are low-skilled and poorly-educated; some percentage of them comprise Mexico's best and brightest, leaving the country and taking their valuable skills with then.
3. The open border serves as a "pressure valve" for Mexico; it doesn't have to fix its dire economic problems because the people who are in a bind will simply cross the border into the United States. If the border closes, the government will be forced to fix the economic problems that plague their country.

All reasonable points.

The problem with Trumps plan is - its not a plan at all. Its an appeal to emotion. Better tech at the boarder is the way to go, not a moronic wall.

I think that a system of drones patrolling the border would be far cheaper and far more efficient than a Great Wall of Trump.

In addition, seismic activity equipment should be installed to detect any tunnelers

they gather up a big group, they all run towards the border knowing some will get caught but not all, now do this in multiple locations miles away, the man power we just don't have, make smaller and more groups, drones not that useful without reducing the places they can come in.
BobTheRocket2 wrote:
Arguing with a liberal is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what, it's going to knock over the pieces, crap all over the board, and strut around like it's victorious.

"Beware the engineers of society, I say, who would make everyone in all the world equal. Opportunity should be equal, must be equal, but achievement must remain individual.
- Drizzt Do'Urden"
brontoraptor
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9/23/2016 8:58:08 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 9/23/2016 3:26:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
I'm referring here to any mechanism that prevents people from crossing the US-Mexico border illegally, not necessarily a literal wall as Donald Trump has proposed.

1. Mexico has relatively strict gun laws. The U.S. has loose gun laws. However, because of the open border, guns flow across it from the U.S. into Mexico, arming the drug cartels and fueling the Mexican Drug War.
2. At least to some extent, illegal immigration from Mexico to the US serves as a brain drain on our neighbour to the south. Not all illegals are low-skilled and poorly-educated; some percentage of them comprise Mexico's best and brightest, leaving the country and taking their valuable skills with then.
3. The open border serves as a "pressure valve" for Mexico; it doesn't have to fix its dire economic problems because the people who are in a bind will simply cross the border into the United States. If the border closes, the government will be forced to fix the economic problems that plague their country.

Quit making sense Vox. We'll have none of that here on DDO.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

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Skepsikyma
Posts: 9,139
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9/24/2016 2:52:39 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 9/23/2016 6:31:41 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I think these are all really interesting points. I simply do not get why the Left is so resistant against the idea of building a border wall other than (1) Trump is lobbying for it so it must be condemned (2) it would interfere with the Left's plan of importing pro-democratic voting blocs to help politically long term, in which case their pretense of concern for the poor, blighted Mexicans is nothing but a hoax.

For the same reason that the right generally opposes good foreign policy: virtue signalling to other members of the larger group. It really should be the most common sense, obvious solution in the world, but it's been turned into a meme. I think that a lot of liberals (and Americans in general) are also generally completely ignorant of Mexican politics. The fact that they were under one-party rule for 71 years never enters into conversation, nor does the fact that said party often had a cozy relationship with cartels.
"See now Oblivion shimmering all around us, its very tranquility deadlier than tempest. How little all our keels have troubled it."
- Lord Dunsany -

"Over her head the stars, the thoughts of God in the heavens,
Shone on the eyes of man, who had ceased to marvel and worship"
- Henry Longfellow -

"We enjoy, we see nothing by direct vision; but only by reflection, and in anatomical dismemberment."
- Thomas Carlyle -