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A Question for Statists

Sieben
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1/12/2011 9:35:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Let's say you support the minimum wage. If you don't, re-insert your favorite function for government (national defense, social security, w/e). Here is the question:

Should the United States raise the minimum wage in canada? Why or why not?

Thank you for your time.
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MikeLoviN
Posts: 746
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1/12/2011 9:47:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/12/2011 9:35:16 PM, Sieben wrote:
Let's say you support the minimum wage. If you don't, re-insert your favorite function for government (national defense, social security, w/e). Here is the question:

Should the United States raise the minimum wage in canada? Why or why not?

Thank you for your time.

lolwut?

The obvious answer is "No... because they can't". But of course that doesn't actually do anything for the discussion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suppose this is your attempt to get people to "think" about how borders tend to hinder global cooperation and development? If that's the case, then can you please expound? Because I'm not sure exactly where your going with this.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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1/12/2011 9:51:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/12/2011 9:47:51 PM, MikeLoviN wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suppose this is your attempt to get people to "think" about how borders tend to hinder global cooperation and development? If that's the case, then can you please expound? Because I'm not sure exactly where your going with this.

No, it has to do with the fact that America has no right to determine how Canada runs its government, just like Ohio has no right to determine how Michigan runs it's government, just like Toledo doesn't have the right to determine how Kalamazoo runs its government, just like you have no right to determine for me how to run my life.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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1/12/2011 9:51:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Why should I tell you where I'm going with this?

Should the united states government make and enforce a law to increase the minimum wage for Canadian People?
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SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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1/12/2011 10:01:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/12/2011 9:51:40 PM, Sieben wrote:
Why should I tell you where I'm going with this?

Should the united states government make and enforce a law to increase the minimum wage for Canadian People?

They cannot but we could invade and . . .
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
MikeLoviN
Posts: 746
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1/12/2011 10:03:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/12/2011 9:51:40 PM, Sieben wrote:
Why should I tell you where I'm going with this?

Should the united states government make and enforce a law to increase the minimum wage for Canadian People?

The question you pose is moot because any law the US could pass regarding people and lands outside of its jurisdiction would be completely useless, and thus would make absolutely no difference one way or the other. So my answer to your question would be "It doesn't matter".

J.Kenyon's response was much more helpful. My answer to that would be that collectives make things easier, and since it is typically rare to find a large group of people in complete agreement on every issue, some form of democratic process is the most practical way of solving disputes, deciding how resources are used etc...
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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1/13/2011 7:50:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/12/2011 10:32:46 PM, Sieben wrote:
Obviously I meant to pass and enforce the law. Don't be so obtuse.

Then invasion is the only option *just like your affinity to Poland and hatred of 1944* we conquer them, turn them into citizens of the U.S.A. *unlike your affinity to Poland and hatred of 1944* then we can increase their minimum wage as well as pass any laws we feel like . . . wonder how many sates we shall get out of it . . .
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
Caramel
Posts: 855
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1/13/2011 8:30:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/12/2011 9:51:32 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 1/12/2011 9:47:51 PM, MikeLoviN wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suppose this is your attempt to get people to "think" about how borders tend to hinder global cooperation and development? If that's the case, then can you please expound? Because I'm not sure exactly where your going with this.

No, it has to do with the fact that America has no right to determine how Canada runs its government, just like Ohio has no right to determine how Michigan runs it's government, just like Toledo doesn't have the right to determine how Kalamazoo runs its government, just like you have no right to determine for me how to run my life.

... just like you have no right to demand that I produce low, zero, or negative-quality goods in menial positions to earn purchasing power to participate/survive. Just like you have no right to claim property rights over parcels of land that were taken for free and over goods that were produced using these parcels of land and the resources over them. Either you are for authority or you are against it; playing middle of the line is the least sensible position of all. If you're going to support capitalism, then supporting America's right to police Canada in any damn way we want is natural and perhaps even necessary.
no comment
Caramel
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1/13/2011 8:40:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
You all support the United States, which were taken by force and are (is) now maintained by force. You support all the land we took by force (e.g., Texas). What's the sacred essence of this northern border with Canada? Why are they so special? In 100 years perhaps Canada will just be another state of the U.S., possibly taken by force (or just agreed to by the monied elite). Would that make this legitimate then, after we take it and make it ours? People who subscribe to laws cannot hope to have consistency in their beliefs. I believe people subscribe to laws out of jealousy; they can't stand the notion that others could be free while they are so far from it.
no comment
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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1/13/2011 8:59:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
You guys are ruining this for me. Rather than have a bunch of libertarian explanations, I wanted statists to explain why Canadians are/aren't their property.
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PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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1/13/2011 9:23:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 8:59:31 AM, Sieben wrote:
You guys are ruining this for me. Rather than have a bunch of libertarian explanations, I wanted statists to explain why Canadians are/aren't their property.:

I don't think you're going to find any avowed statists on the forum because there is so much negative connotation attached to it. It's like asking the forum Klansmen their opinion about black people. I highly doubt anyone on this forum who would openly discuss such a thing. People like that generally stay closeted for fear of excommunication and/or other forms of reprisal.

Secondly, even supposing there were open statists, your question seems loaded. I doubt they would want to engage in it.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/13/2011 10:27:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/12/2011 9:51:32 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 1/12/2011 9:47:51 PM, MikeLoviN wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suppose this is your attempt to get people to "think" about how borders tend to hinder global cooperation and development? If that's the case, then can you please expound? Because I'm not sure exactly where your going with this.

No, it has to do with the fact that America has no right to determine how Canada runs its government, just like Ohio has no right to determine how Michigan runs it's government, just like Toledo doesn't have the right to determine how Kalamazoo runs its government, just like you have no right to determine for me how to run my life.

No, the government has no "authority" to. Everyone has the right to tell anyone else what to do. But without the authority or power to do it, it is just talk.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/13/2011 10:29:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 7:50:58 AM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
At 1/12/2011 10:32:46 PM, Sieben wrote:
Obviously I meant to pass and enforce the law. Don't be so obtuse.

Then invasion is the only option *just like your affinity to Poland and hatred of 1944* we conquer them, turn them into citizens of the U.S.A. *unlike your affinity to Poland and hatred of 1944* then we can increase their minimum wage as well as pass any laws we feel like . . . wonder how many sates we shall get out of it . . .

Just one, North Montana.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/13/2011 10:33:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/12/2011 9:35:16 PM, Sieben wrote:
Let's say you support the minimum wage. If you don't, re-insert your favorite function for government (national defense, social security, w/e). Here is the question:

Should the United States raise the minimum wage in canada? Why or why not?

Thank you for your time.

I'll take a gander at it, since no one else seems eager to.

We don't because the effort into enforcing such a law greatly out weighs any benefits. And also, passing a law and sending police officers up there to enforce it is not the most effective way to achieve that goal. Since Canada is a democracy, it would be far more cost efficient to send money to political parties and campaigns that support raising the minimum wage.

However there are some topic of which we may likely intervene. Let's remove "minimum wage" and replace with "classifying women and blacks as non-human with no more rights then a cow."
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Sieben
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1/13/2011 10:35:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 10:33:57 AM, OreEle wrote:
At 1/12/2011 9:35:16 PM, Sieben wrote:
Let's say you support the minimum wage. If you don't, re-insert your favorite function for government (national defense, social security, w/e). Here is the question:

Should the United States raise the minimum wage in canada? Why or why not?

Thank you for your time.

I'll take a gander at it, since no one else seems eager to.

We don't because the effort into enforcing such a law greatly out weighs any benefits. And also, passing a law and sending police officers up there to enforce it is not the most effective way to achieve that goal. Since Canada is a democracy, it would be far more cost efficient to send money to political parties and campaigns that support raising the minimum wage.

However there are some topic of which we may likely intervene. Let's remove "minimum wage" and replace with "classifying women and blacks as non-human with no more rights then a cow."

Thanks for answering. Let's assume that there is no cost to increasing the minimum wage in Canada. The threat of US force is enough to get them to capitulate. Do you do it?
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/13/2011 10:38:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/12/2011 9:35:16 PM, Sieben wrote:
Let's say you support the minimum wage. If you don't, re-insert your favorite function for government (national defense, social security, w/e). Here is the question:

Should the United States raise the minimum wage in canada? Why or why not?

Thank you for your time.

I don't care so much about canadians.

I care more for those I know and hear about.. So far as I know the canadians situation doesn't seem dire at all... and certainly not enough for me to care about what they do.

now... if people in my town were starving...
or if I heard of and dwelled upon droves of people were starving due to a drought somewhere in africa...

I might be willing to use the Govt. to carry out some theft on people whom I think are doing all right.. in order to give it to the people who are starving...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Sieben
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1/13/2011 10:39:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 10:38:21 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:

I might be willing to use the Govt. to carry out some theft on people whom I think are doing all right.. in order to give it to the people who are starving...

So you'd be willing to invade canada to take their resources (if you really needed it).
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/13/2011 10:41:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 10:35:43 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 1/13/2011 10:33:57 AM, OreEle wrote:
At 1/12/2011 9:35:16 PM, Sieben wrote:
Let's say you support the minimum wage. If you don't, re-insert your favorite function for government (national defense, social security, w/e). Here is the question:

Should the United States raise the minimum wage in canada? Why or why not?

Thank you for your time.

I'll take a gander at it, since no one else seems eager to.

We don't because the effort into enforcing such a law greatly out weighs any benefits. And also, passing a law and sending police officers up there to enforce it is not the most effective way to achieve that goal. Since Canada is a democracy, it would be far more cost efficient to send money to political parties and campaigns that support raising the minimum wage.

However there are some topic of which we may likely intervene. Let's remove "minimum wage" and replace with "classifying women and blacks as non-human with no more rights then a cow."

Thanks for answering. Let's assume that there is no cost to increasing the minimum wage in Canada. The threat of US force is enough to get them to capitulate. Do you do it?

Do we assume "no cost" = no cost in dollars or no cost in any measure of the word (which includes public opinion of the US within the US, within canada, and around the world)?

the use the threat automatically has a cost, since it automatically makes a hit against our reputation.

Now if Obama called up Stephen Harper and said, "hey, you should raise your minimum wage" and Stephen said, "Sure, we'll raise it tomorrow, have a nice day." Then I see nothing wrong with that at all.

If Obama said "Hey, raise your minimum wage NOW!" I would say that is rude and not the best way to go about getting things, and could be handled better, even if it was successful.

And of course, the more forceful you get, the worse it gets, imo.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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1/13/2011 10:44:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 10:41:38 AM, OreEle wrote:

Do we assume "no cost" = no cost in dollars or no cost in any measure of the word (which includes public opinion of the US within the US, within canada, and around the world)?

No. Just no cost in dollars.

the use the threat automatically has a cost, since it automatically makes a hit against our reputation.

Yup. It also has cost because the resources were previously being put to productive use by Canadians.

Now if Obama called up Stephen Harper and said, "hey, you should raise your minimum wage" and Stephen said, "Sure, we'll raise it tomorrow, have a nice day." Then I see nothing wrong with that at all.

So you think its okay for Obama to ask Stephen to use force against his citizens?
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SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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1/13/2011 10:44:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 10:35:43 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 1/13/2011 10:33:57 AM, OreEle wrote:
At 1/12/2011 9:35:16 PM, Sieben wrote:
Let's say you support the minimum wage. If you don't, re-insert your favorite function for government (national defense, social security, w/e). Here is the question:

Should the United States raise the minimum wage in canada? Why or why not?

Thank you for your time.

I'll take a gander at it, since no one else seems eager to.

We don't because the effort into enforcing such a law greatly out weighs any benefits. And also, passing a law and sending police officers up there to enforce it is not the most effective way to achieve that goal. Since Canada is a democracy, it would be far more cost efficient to send money to political parties and campaigns that support raising the minimum wage.

However there are some topic of which we may likely intervene. Let's remove "minimum wage" and replace with "classifying women and blacks as non-human with no more rights then a cow."

Thanks for answering. Let's assume that there is no cost to increasing the minimum wage in Canada. The threat of US force is enough to get them to capitulate. Do you do it?

It is not a province of the U.S.A. and Canada is so pacifistic the entire world will consider the U.S. to be more of a douche then they already do . . . the only way we could make this work is to annex Canada as a state . . . and get access to all of that Canadian oil and diamonds . . . then we can take over South and Central America so we can remove immigration issues and concerns as well as the eventual conquest of the Caribbean after all of this we can take over Africa, this will make it so that the U.S. controls majority of the worlds resources . . . what does this sound like to you . . . ?
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/13/2011 10:45:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 10:39:32 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 1/13/2011 10:38:21 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:

I might be willing to use the Govt. to carry out some theft on people whom I think are doing all right.. in order to give it to the people who are starving...

So you'd be willing to invade canada to take their resources (if you really needed it).

I happen to be a bit compassionate...

so.. I wouldn't care to take it from hungry babes... but if my family was starving, and I couldn't find a decent job to feed them.. I'd steal to (in a heartbeat) if it was my last option..

Same (though to a lesser degree) with my neighbors.

and other people who I happen to come across.

Even if I were to think of people I don't know in such a predicament.... I find that I would not be against stealing to help them if such a thing's necessary.

I care for them not to suffer...

now.. granted I care more for My family, myself, and my friends to not suffer...

and I also happen to care for a great many other things...

but the care for people I hear about suffering generally.. does merit some action on my behalf..

and, often fulfilling that care is more of a bonus than stealing from a dude who just bought a new cigarette-boat.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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1/13/2011 10:47:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 10:45:40 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
and, often fulfilling that care is more of a bonus than stealing from a dude who just bought a new cigarette-boat **is a negative**

** fixd **
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/13/2011 10:48:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 10:44:32 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 1/13/2011 10:41:38 AM, OreEle wrote:

Do we assume "no cost" = no cost in dollars or no cost in any measure of the word (which includes public opinion of the US within the US, within canada, and around the world)?

No. Just no cost in dollars.

the use the threat automatically has a cost, since it automatically makes a hit against our reputation.

Yup. It also has cost because the resources were previously being put to productive use by Canadians.

Now if Obama called up Stephen Harper and said, "hey, you should raise your minimum wage" and Stephen said, "Sure, we'll raise it tomorrow, have a nice day." Then I see nothing wrong with that at all.

So you think its okay for Obama to ask Stephen to use force against his citizens?

Yeah, I generally support a minimum wage. Kind of like I also support minimum safety standards at workplaces, warnings on medication, and street signs.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
mattrodstrom
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1/13/2011 10:49:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 10:45:40 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
cigarette-boat.

they are pretty cool
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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1/13/2011 10:57:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 10:39:32 AM, Sieben wrote:
So you'd be willing to invade canada to take their resources (if you really needed it).

I'd be willing to support stealing from Canadian cigarette boat enthusiast owners to starving canadian/american/african children...

now... from what I understand they're already being stolen from Quite a bit already...
and for many not-so engaging reasons...

so... before suggesting raising the amount stolen for starving children...

I'd suggest cutting the bulk of it.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."